Jump to content

Talk:Race and intelligence: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Content deleted Content added
→‎Adding the polygenic scores: Given the type of the pseudo-scientific racist rant (that I have just reverted per wp:NOTFORUM) being attracted, unfortunately yes, it seems that we do.
Line 238: Line 238:
:The talk page at [[Talk:History of the race and intelligence controversy]] had to be semi protected to curtail this repetitive POV pushing. Do we have to request that be done here as well? - [[User:MrOllie|MrOllie]] ([[User talk:MrOllie|talk]]) 15:10, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
:The talk page at [[Talk:History of the race and intelligence controversy]] had to be semi protected to curtail this repetitive POV pushing. Do we have to request that be done here as well? - [[User:MrOllie|MrOllie]] ([[User talk:MrOllie|talk]]) 15:10, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
::Given the type of the pseudo-scientific racist rant (that I have just reverted per [[wp:NOTFORUM]]) being attracted, unfortunately yes, it seems that we do. --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 16:16, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
::Given the type of the pseudo-scientific racist rant (that I have just reverted per [[wp:NOTFORUM]]) being attracted, unfortunately yes, it seems that we do. --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 16:16, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

There is nothing "psuedoscientific" about this. The genetic hypothesis is a scientific hypothesis, just like any other, and it makes very specific predictions, including that these polygenic scores will be different. The only reason these polygenic scores are not being added, is because they constitute very powerful evidence in favour of a genetic component to racial gaps in IQ, and you guys want to suppress and hide this information from the public.

Revision as of 17:24, 3 December 2021

Former good article nomineeRace and intelligence was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 14, 2005Articles for deletionKept
June 24, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
July 18, 2005Featured article candidateNot promoted
August 25, 2006Good article nomineeNot listed
December 4, 2006Articles for deletionKept
April 11, 2011Articles for deletionKept
February 24, 2020Deletion reviewOverturned
February 29, 2020Articles for deletionKept
Current status: Former good article nominee


Should the Q&A section have sources?

For example the claim "So comparing Africans to Europeans will show differences in genes that regulate skin color, hair texture, nose and lip shape, and other observable traits. But the rest of the genetic code will be essentially the same." I would be interesting to learn what sources the claim that difference in genes between Africans and Europeans are limited to observable traits is based on.

Similarly there are many other claims there that read more like opinions rather than facts. What are the editing guidelines that apply to the Q&A?

2A00:23C7:EE82:7701:90A2:E3C3:BD92:E870 (talk) 22:11, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The procedure is pretty simple. You suggest specific changes to the FAQ and then establish a consensus here on the talk page by persuading others. Typically that's done by referencing high quality reliable sources and Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Be aware, however, that this is one of the most contentious topic areas on the whole encyclopedia, with 103 talk page archives for this page alone. Until recently only extended-confirmed users could even comment here due to a long history of disruption. Many of us have been over these issues again and again and again, so you will sometimes reach the limit of people's patience relatively quickly, especially when you can find out the answers to your questions on your own by reading through the archives or doing some basic research on Google.
All that said, I'll assume that you're asking in good faith and will direct you to, e.g. this rather straightforward explanation: [11]. And if you're looking for something a bit more on the peer-reviewed scientific paper side of things, see e.g. [12] or [13]. I hope that's helpful.
Also, many of the answers in the FAQ are full of citations. I'd be more than happy to work with anyone who'd like to add pertinent references to the others. Generalrelative (talk) 04:53, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Generalrelative, I do not have a subscription to National Geographic, but I did read the two studies you linked. However, I must have missed the part where they mention that the differences are limited to observable traits. Hope you can quote me where in those sources such claim is made? Its contrary to what I have been taught in my own professional sphere.2A00:23C7:EE82:7701:1906:630D:E828:D194 (talk) 11:36, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest going back to the first study and everywhere it says "phenotype" understand that by that the authors mean "observable traits" because that's what the term means. Both studies support the scientific consensus that there is no genetic basis for grouping humanity into natural population groups as can be done with other species because of the extraordinarily high degree of interrelatedness that is evident in the human genome, despite the outward differences that would seem to suggest otherwise like skin color and hair type. Again, I hope that's helpful. Generalrelative (talk) 13:55, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly there is some confusion because of the ambiguity of the term "observable traits." In the phenotype article they are defined as "the set of observable characteristics or traits of an organism. The term covers the organism's morphology or physical form and structure, its developmental processes, its biochemical and physiological properties, its behavior, and the products of behavior" while in the Q&A it seems to refer to visible traits only. Alaexis¿question? 14:40, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, thanks Alaexis. I see what you mean, and I'd support adding "susceptibility to certain diseases" or something like that for clarity. The key thing I wouldn't want to lose sight of here is the principle of some astonishment, in this case that despite the outward differences which would seem to suggest otherwise we are far too interrelated to be meaningfully sorted into genetically distinct population groups. Generalrelative (talk) 14:56, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Alexis! So observable traits include not just physical characteristics, as the Q&A seemed to suggest, but also observable differences in behaviour and cognition?
2A00:23C7:EE82:7701:1906:630D:E828:D194 (talk) 17:13, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is the definition from the phenotype article. I have no idea what the sources that were used for the Q&A meant by "observable traits." Alaexis¿question? 17:31, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
By the way you might want to register. There has been a history of problematic editing here... Alaexis¿question? 17:34, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In this case no, not cognition, since there is a clear consensus that no evidence exists to support the contention that group-level differences in cognition have a genetic basis. That's the key point which the FAQ exists to rebut, and which the recent RfC unquestionably established. Generalrelative (talk) 17:55, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The current version gives an impression it only refers to physical characteristics, so maybe good to mention that phenotype also includes observable behavioural differences? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C7:EE82:7701:CCBA:1BC:2A3D:90D4 (talk) 22:35, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, no evidence exists that group-level differences in behavior have a genetic basis either. Generalrelative (talk) 03:43, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Mixing "observable" and "visible" traits?

The Q&A seems to confuse "observable" and "visible" traits. Differences in behaviour or cognitive abilities can be observable, although they are not physical. Therefore the claim that "So comparing Africans to Europeans will show differences in genes that regulate skin color, hair texture, nose and lip shape, and other observable traits. But the rest of the genetic code will be essentially the same." Seems nonsensical. How could we find non-observable differences? Is IQ not an "observable trait/characteristic"?

2A00:23C7:EE82:7701:1906:630D:E828:D194 (talk) 17:27, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please see the above. I'm not sure why you'd want to start an entirely new heading for this but in any case your concerns have been addressed. Generalrelative (talk) 17:59, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My question is that does the Q&A gives an impression that "observable traits" are visible traits, whereas it also includes observable behavioural differences? So does the Q&A mean to say that there is a genetic base in behavioural differences, or only visible differences?
I do not understand what "So comparing Africans to Europeans will show differences in genes that regulate skin color, hair texture, nose and lip shape, and other observable traits. But the rest of the genetic code will be essentially the same." is trying to say? It seems to imply that differences are limited to physical differences, otherwise it makes no sense to me that it can only show differences that are observable?
2A00:23C7:EE82:7701:CCBA:1BC:2A3D:90D4 (talk) 19:30, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

How is Rothman & Snyderman survey not representative of the mainstream

The Q&A states that surveys on intelligence experts "are almost invariably conducted by advocates of scientific racism, and respondents to these surveys are also almost exclusively members of groups that promote scientific racism. In short, they are not representative samples of mainstream scientific opinion."

How is Rothman and Snyderman survey not representative sample of scientific opinion? The 1020 experts in the survey were chosen randomly from the following organisations:

American Educational Research Association (120) National Council on Measurement in Education (120) American Psychological Association: Development psychology division (120) Educational psychology division (120) Evaluation and Measurement division (120) School psychology division (120) Counseling psychology division (60) Industrial and organizational psychology division (60) Behavior Genetics Association (60) American Sociological Association (education) (60) Cognitive Science Society (60)

How are these not mainstream scientists?

You omitted "not representative samples of". Please consult statistics books for beginners to find out how little you understand the problem. --Hob Gadling (talk) 20:37, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Is your comment the sort of discussion encouraged in Wikipedia? I do not understand how the criticism in the Q&A towards surveys of intelligence experts is in anyway applicable to the Rothman & Snyderman survey. These organisations seem to represent mainstream science, no?
2A00:23C7:EE82:7701:CCBA:1BC:2A3D:90D4 (talk) 20:49, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Referring to any other editors as uninformed contradicts WP:NPA.
2A00:23C7:EE82:7701:CCBA:1BC:2A3D:90D4 (talk) 20:52, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Actually no, referring to other editors as uninformed when they have shown themselves clearly to be uninformed does not violate WP:NPA, especially when they have been given ample warning about the nature of this topic area and the norms of contributing here –– as I provided in my first response to you above –– and have failed to read carefully what they aim to criticize. We always assume good faith and that people are coming at this with a reasonable amount of competence, but at some point when people show that they do not possess that competence there is nothing to be done but point that out to the person and, if one wants to go above and beyond as Hob Gadling has done, point them toward a way in which can educate themselves. Of course some people are so caught up in an image of themselves as very knowledgeable that they will react negatively to this, but there is only so much we can do without further disrupting the project. This is all summed up nicely in the explanatory supplement WP:CIR. Generalrelative (talk) 03:51, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In this case questions arose largely because the Q&A has no references. I understand that possibly the justifications for each item are somewhere in these 103 archives, but wouldn't it be easier for everyone to provide them explicitly? Alaexis¿question? 06:36, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid, questions of this kind will always be repeated by those uninformed people who Generalrelative described so well in their comment above. Look at the "contributions" of that IP, the only one to main space (here) was quite horrible, it was quickly reverted, and justly so. A time sink. --Rsk6400 (talk) 08:35, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Does anyone want to get the extended confirmed protection restored? Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:10, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Hemiauchenia: I wouldn't be opposed, but FYI MrOllie recently raised the issue with Dennis Brown, the admin who issued the EC protection previously. His reply was that the level of disruption here is not yet sufficient to warrant restoration, but he asked to be kept posted if disruption continues. Generalrelative (talk) 05:21, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Adding the latest genetic research

Relentless parade of WP:BLUDGEON, WP:FORUMSHOP and WP:ASPERSION. Generalrelative (talk) 22:26, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


How about we add the polygenic scores on educational attainment SNPs for the relevant races. https://www.mdpi.com/2624-8611/1/1/5 Please do not say we cannot add them because the author on the paper has said mean stuff on twitter btw. 93.149.193.190 (talk) 19:37, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You guys REALLY don't care if this is true or not right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.149.193.190 (talk) 22:02, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There is also the article in the journal Intelligence [1] Given that the journal Intelligence is cited over a dozen times in this article, there should not be a problem with it right? (apart from the fact that the facts hurt your feelings that is) 93.149.193.190 (talk) 22:18, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(apart from the fact that the facts hurt your feelings that is) Thanks for making it clear you're not here in good faith. clpo13(talk) 22:24, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

Adding the polygenic scores

Regardless of whether the IP from Milan was in good faith, the addition of the polygenic scores does seem relevant and justified given that it meets all of Wikipedia's criteria. 2800:484:877C:94F0:8544:9078:3A8A:4A27 (talk) 22:28, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It has been explained again and again, both here and at Talk:History of the race and intelligence controversy, why this content will not be added: it violates WP:RS and WP:OR. Generalrelative (talk) 00:23, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Like, I am fine with saying Intelligence is not a reliable source, but then we would need to remove all the references to it from this article then, in order to be consistent. 2800:484:877C:94F0:A4C1:8C1A:84BF:EC33 (talk) 04:23, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

According to Wikipedia policy, a source that is not reliable for the purpose of determining scientific consensus may nevertheless be reliable for determining the opinions of the authors, which of course must be attributed to them. For example, the article contains references to work by Jensen, Rushton, etc., not because they're reliable as a scientific source, but because their writings were highly influential in promoting a fringe viewpoint, and so their views need to be mentioned in the article. NightHeron (talk) 13:04, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Ok, so let us mention the polygenic scores based on that criterion. Not because they represent scientific consensus, but because they are being put forth as evidence for a fringe view point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 191.106.148.198 (talk) 14:04, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In accordance with WP:FRINGE, WP:FALSEBALANCE, and WP:UNDUE, we don't include detailed argumentation for fringe viewpoints. NightHeron (talk) 14:41, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Ok, but there is a whole section in this article dedicated to research into possible genetic influences, should we delete it then? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 191.106.156.142 (talk) 15:07, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The talk page at Talk:History of the race and intelligence controversy had to be semi protected to curtail this repetitive POV pushing. Do we have to request that be done here as well? - MrOllie (talk) 15:10, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Given the type of the pseudo-scientific racist rant (that I have just reverted per wp:NOTFORUM) being attracted, unfortunately yes, it seems that we do. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:16, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There is nothing "psuedoscientific" about this. The genetic hypothesis is a scientific hypothesis, just like any other, and it makes very specific predictions, including that these polygenic scores will be different. The only reason these polygenic scores are not being added, is because they constitute very powerful evidence in favour of a genetic component to racial gaps in IQ, and you guys want to suppress and hide this information from the public.