Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football

Not to be confused with Wikipedia talk:WikiProject American football, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian rules football, or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Canadian football.

Template:X team squad

Should these templates include players who have been called up in the season without being fielded? Dr Salvus 20:22, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Do you have an example? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 21:03, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

@Nehme1499 see Template:Juventus F.C. squad. Marco Raina was called up by Allegri for the match against Genoa without being fielded. Should he be included in the template? I'd added him to the template, but my edit has been reverted by another user. Dr Salvus 21:12, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I think we should include all first-team players (whether they played or not), and youth/U23 players who have made at least an appearance. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 21:14, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I instead think, we should include all players who have been called up by the first team coach (wheter they're in the first team or not) in the current season. Dr Salvus 21:21, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

If a player has been given a squad number and called up to a match squad, include them. GiantSnowman 21:36, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

@Island92: courtesy ping. Btw, I'm indifferent between the two options. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 00:07, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

My personal thought is that the template squad has to match with this section for istance, which includes all the players from first squad source and those with at least one appearance made.--Island92 (talk) 00:14, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Can someone else reply here, please? Dr Salvus 17:20, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

I usually include all players in the official squad per the club, plus all players that have articles and have played in the current season. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paul Vaurie‎ (talk • contribs)

I have always followed the method described by user:GiantSnowman (all players who have been given a squad number and called up to a match day squad) but recently had this level of detail removed by @EchetusXe: on Template:Rotherham United F.C. squad. Gricehead (talk) 17:36, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

None of those players are included in the squad list on the Rotherham United article. EchetusXe 23:31, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

EchetusXe, doesn't matter. They should be included both in the article and in the Template. Dr Salvus 06:23, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Well Gricehead should put them in both the article and in the template then, rather than put them solely in the template and complain when I remove them from the template for being out of sync with the squad list. 90% of the time the article page is up to date whilst the template is out of date. EchetusXe 10:30, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I agree both squad list and template should match. GiantSnowman 10:34, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

They are included in the squad list of 2021–22 Rotherham United F.C. season. For once I must have forgot to sync up the main article squad list. Please forgive the oversight. Gricehead (talk) 16:07, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

So, what do we do? I think we should decide. Dr Salvus 10:52, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

2021 Africa Cup of Nations squads

There is a discrepancy between the list of players at 2021 Africa Cup of Nations squads and the squad templates within Category:2021 Africa Cup of Nations squad navigational boxes. Can those editors who have been working on the article/templates - @Microwave Anarchist, SuperJew, MonFrontieres, Ben5218, Ortizesp, Ampimd, Paul Vaurie, and محمد أمين الطرابلسي: - please correct what needs correcting? GiantSnowman 22:01, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Do you mean there are errors, or are there not enough templates? Paul Vaurie (talk) 22:04, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

I mean that the players listed in the article and the players listed in the templates do not match up. GiantSnowman 22:08, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

They should match what is listed in the official squad list. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 22:10, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Right, I noticed that. As for the Tunisia squad template that I created, it's correct. محمد أمين الطرابلسي (talk) 22:20, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

@Microwave Anarchist: That CAF source is already outdated. For example, where it says TotalEnergies AFCON 2021 - EQUATORIAL GUINEA [PDF], the PDF link says that player number 25 is Aitor Mbela, when in reality is Felipe Ovono as the former got injured and was replaced by the latter.[1][2][3] I guess similar errors are in the other PDFs.--MonFrontieres (talk) 23:58, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

@MonFrontieres: that was after the final squads were published so its not an error per se. If a player pulls out of the squad after the final squad, that can be sourced above the squad list. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 00:12, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

For the few templates I created, I used the squadlist at 2021 Africa Cup of Nations squads. I can recheck if we can confirm the squads on the page are finalized.--Ortizesp (talk) 02:17, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Doing my best to create and keep updated. It's all dynamic right now and I'm super busy IRL :) You're welcome to edit it yourself :) and I'd be happy to get more input on the disucssion at the talk page regarding the squad list order. --SuperJew (talk) 06:29, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising - you're all doing great work on this! GiantSnowman 09:35, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Saw this one a bit too late, I'm also busy IRL. After fixing Morocco's squad template (replaced Badr Benoun by Achraf Bencharki) I checked all squads' templates and compared them to the players' list located at 2021 Africa Cup of Nations squads, and can confirm that all of them are matched and updated now. Ben5218 (talk) 11:42, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Football squad template change

Just wanted to notify the project that a couple of undiscussed visual updates were done today to Template:Football squad, which affected the look of all club squad templates (they all inherit the code from this template), which have not been touched for more than 10 years, I think. Pinging the editor @Charlesaaronthompson: here just in case. --BlameRuiner (talk) 10:35, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

If the visual update is made on the squad template, shouldn't it be replicated to Template:Football manager history as well? BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 13:15, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I'm the editor who made these changes over at Template:Football squad. I did so, because I wanted to enlarge the size of the border parameters in the template. The reason why I wanted to enlarge the size of the border parameters was because I wanted to ensure that the wiki-code markup for Template:Football squad resembled and was similar to all the football club templates on this project. My question is this: do my changes go against the established consensus? If so, I have no problem reverting back these changes. However, I'm fully willing to engage in the WP:BRD cycle and fully willing to engage in a discussion to find and abide by the established consensus. Charlesaaronthompson (talk) 04:55, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

OK, I honestly expected this change would raise a little more eyebrows than just mine, guess I was wrong. Anyway, I don't think this change was justified because all football-related templates were already consistent in having a 1px border, because they all inherited the code from the more generic football navbox. Club squads, national team squads on major tournaments, manager histories - they all have (had) 1px border. Now, I don't know if it's just me and my browser, but after the change I sometimes see some of the borders rendered slightly differently (upper one thicker than the bottom). Anyway, I propose to revert this change in the spirit of not touching thing that already worked fine. --BlameRuiner (talk) 11:22, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

I have reverted the change - not because I have any opposition to it, but because it was undiscussed and affect hundreds/thousands of templates. We need to discuss and agree. GiantSnowman 11:41, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: can you also revert changes at Module:Football manager history? I tried but I don't have rights. --BlameRuiner (talk) 08:14, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

 Done Black Kite (talk) 08:29, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Citations wanted - potential entries for List of footballers killed during World War II

Reposted and updated version of original now archived.

As main contributor to this article, I would like to flag up for attention of others on the project a number of candidates for the list that are already wiki-articled and known or believed to have been killed in or died as a result of circumstances brought on by the war (eg execution, in enemy captivity, effects of wounds etc) but which so far lack a reliable citation regarding their death which is preconditional to inclusion in the list. A few have no death circumstances described in the text of their article but I note have been put on category lists that suggest someone knew/believed they died in wartime circumstances. I also include those whose death circumstances are disputed - see their talk pages for further detail - and are in need of a conclusive ruling in or out.

• Josef Adelbrecht (Austria) - categorised as Austrian military personnel killed in the war. His German wikipedia article states he was killed on the Russian front NW of Moscow.
• Dragutin Babic (Yugoslavia) - there is a source in Croat language but it is unclear to me it indicates manner of death
• Josef Bergmaier (Germany)
• Jozsef Eisenhoffer (Hungary) - also disputed death circumstances
• Hermann Flick (Germany)
• Josef Fruhwirth (Austria) - categorised as Austrian military personnel killed in WWII. His article in Germany wikipedia has citation to an Austrian newspaper report of his death which I find unreadable.
• Nikolai Gromov (Russia) - Russian language profile says he 'died at the front' in 1943 without further detail. More informative sources if found preferred.
• Adam Kogut (Poland) - died at Katyn during the massacres there according to Polish wikipedia.
• Karol Kossok (Poland)
• Franz Krumm (Germany)
• Willi Lindner (Germany) - source in German language, not fully clear about death details
• Johann Luef (Austria) - his German wikipedia article indicates he died of wounds in hospital in East Prussia.
• Josef Madlmayer (Austria)
• Richard Malik (Germany) - only citation is a Polish language source which I cannot translate update - having been able to translate, I have now added him with the citation to the List.Cloptonson (talk) 10:26, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
• Vladimir Markov (footballer) (Russia) - Stated in Olympedia to have died in Leningrad in 1942, which coincided with the long running siege of the city. Can evidence be found for treating him as a victim of the siege?
• Alexander Martinek (Austria)
• Otto Martwig (Germany)
• Philip Meldon (Ireland) - disputed death details, not known to CWGC.
• August Mobs (Germany) - said to have been killed in air raid.
• Slavko Pavletic (Croatia) - no death circumstance details given in text but has been categorised as a Croatian civilian killed in the war.
• Jean Petit (footballer, born 1914) (Belgium) - His French wikipedia article indicates without citation or death location given that he was a doctor = probably civilian rather than military - who was killed in a bombardment preceding the Alied invasion of Normandy.
• Alfreds Plade (Latvia) - was added to the list but I have taken it out and copied it on list talk page as the citations used did not indicate how he died or any service. There are two citations in his article on Latvian wikipedia (which states he was repatriated to Germany as a Baltic German, served implicitly in their forces and fell on the Eastern Front) but I find both unreadable.
• Eriks Raisters (Latvia)
• Fyodor Rimsha (Russia)
• Janis Rozitis (Latvia)
• Holger Salin (Finland)
• Aristotel Samsuri (Albania) - Reportedly executed in German concentration camp in Greece as a Communist partisan between 1942/1944, but was claimed by the postwar Communist regime of Albania to have escaped and survived before proclaiming him a martyr in 1981.
• Otto Siffling (Germany) - It is listed under the list on German Wikipedia, but says he died of pleurisy. I've added it here in case he is found to have served during the war.
• Harry Spencer (footballer) (New Zealand, previously played in England) - There are similarities with a New Zealand soldier known to the CWGC (see talk page of article). Can someone find confirmation they are the same man?
• Aleksandrs Stankus (Latvia)
• Erwin Stührk (Germany) - disputable death date, death place given in German war grave site not easy to ascertain as it only gives German form of name rather than its vernacular.
• Willi Völker (Germany) - uncertainty about death location.
• Karl Wahlmuller(Austria)
• Heinz Warnken (Germany) - German wikipedia gives him as gefallen (fallen) in 1943 but no detail of precise death date or death place.
• Willi Wigold (Germany) - date of death is disputed

There may be additions coming onto the list so I encourage watch this space! Others are welcome to add. Please let us know if sources are found and added into their articles.Cloptonson (talk) 19:00, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Flag links

I'm wondering if there is consensus as to what wikilinks, if any, we should provide for country names that appear next to their respective flags in lists? I ask as @Crowsus: recently changed the links at List of Premier League winning players to reflect the countries' national associations, when previously they linked to the country pages where the FIFA code was used and were unlinked when the country name was written in full. I've also noticed that we're linking to national associations on our squad template. Was there consensus for this? It seems odd to me, as nationality and national association are not one and the same. With MOS:EGG in mind, I don't think most readers would click a link to Trinidad and Tobago, for example, and expect to be taken to our page for that country's national association. Thanks, Mattythewhite (talk) 00:55, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

I really don't see the point of linking flags to associations. They should be set to nationality in my opinion. The idea of clicking a flag icon is the see what that flag belongs too. Setting the Union Jack to an association is just wrong. Even the flag of England, that icon should direct to England. Govvy (talk) 09:59, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Surely on a football page, users are expecting to be taken to the national team of that nation? At least that is how I'd have it set up. Felixsv7 (talk) 10:01, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

National team would seem to make more sense IMO than national FA (the change made by Crowsus was to link each flag to the FA of that country, eg the Wales flag linked to Football Association of Wales, not Wales national football team) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:15, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

That table of winners by nationality is WP:CRUFT in my opinion. It's unsourced and I doubt any actual RS actually comment on it as a whole. Additionally, linking a flag to an organisation is both an WP:EASTEREGG link, and also not the logo of the organisation we are linking to. In the above example, the Welsh national football team and Association don't use the national flag to visualise themselves. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:23, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Linking to a national team makes more sense, but it doesn't make sense when a player hasn't played for a national team. Those that click on a flag icon are more likely to want to know what nationality that flag is far. A flag icon should goto an article on that nation. Flags to FAs and national teams just over complicates things if you ask me. Govvy (talk) 11:52, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

The country articles are the most relevant destinations for links in nationality columns, and even then I'd only include the links when it aids accessibility, such as when the FIFA code is used. It would be outright misleading to link to a national team article for a player who hasn't even represented that national team. Mattythewhite (talk) 00:16, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

It is just as misleading to link to the country though. There are countless examples of footballers who are nationality A but have represented country B. Linking to the FA is probably the most neutral way. And it's not rocket science to work out which country or territory any given association represents. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 22:30, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

How is it misleading? Baring in mind that we are talking about sporting country, not nationality. It's much more misleading to like a flag of a country to an organisation. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:47, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

That's exactly the point, we're talking about sporting nationality. If someone is Scottish but represents Canada because of their grandparents, it's misleading to link to the country. There are players who had never been to the country they represent before being called up. Linking directly to the country implies that the person is that nationality when that isn't always the case. Linking to the association or national team is unambiguous, they represent that country but they aren't necessarily that nationality. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 23:33, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

How can a player represent a country without having its nationality..? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 01:05, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

The eligibility criteria mean that you don't have to be any specific nationality to play for a national team. If a grandparent is English and moves to Australia and that's where their kids and grandkids are born and grow up, the grandkids aren't English but they could still play for England. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 10:00, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

The grandkids would still need to apply for British citizenship though ("Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence in a certain country is eligible to play for the representative teams of the association of that country"), at least according to FIFA eligibility rules. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 12:31, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

TLDR version flag use doesn't make sense, and used inconsistently, now seeking consensus to have flags in football articles changed to FA instead of straight to nation article wherever NT flag link would not be appropriate. Crowsus (talk) 13:29, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

There are several aspects to this. Firstly, I assumed some sort of consensus was in place about linking flags to FA which was introduced on the Current Squad template (ie Template:Football squad player about 10 months ago, based on prior comments here: "Template:Football squad player has the ability to use a national variant as documented at Template:Flagicon/doc.". Here is the link referred to, which states "The second parameter is optional, and identifies a flag variant to be used instead of the standard flag. This is most often used for historical flags but can also be used to specify naval flags, sport-use flags, etc.". So that seems to be the history behind its use in that context. Not sure if editors didn't notice or care it was being used in that way. I would also point to this request I made in December regarding using the same parameter in a different template - the point was raised by User:Spike 'em about consensus, I sought opinions to that end, but nobody wished to be involved, or again maybe missed it, and the request at the template itself was approved. The use of the FA itself as the link makes a lot of sense to me, because the alternatives are either: linking to the nation itself which is not desired as a general rule; having no link which makes the flag purely decorative and is also also a breach of regulations, particularly in the hundreds of football-related articles where flags are being used without accompanying labels); or link to the national team which only really makes sense in certain situations specifically relating to the team or players representing them. The FA can instead be taken in a much wider context referring to its member clubs or eligible players who may not have any connection to the national team itself, but are/were eligible as per MOS:SPORTFLAG. It makes no sense to me that on a player's article, let's say he has a birth nation, an adopted nation, moved to another country when he retired and died in a fourth place, and those places would all remain unlinked in his biography, but if he made 100 appearances for Real Madrid, played for both sides in Milan, finished top scorer in a French season or got a Bundesliga hat-trick, those articles would all have little flags next to his name linking to that country. There should really be no such links, particularly if it doesn't have any relevance to the subject (e.g hat-trick lists). But if editors want them to stay on the articles for informative reasons (or let's be honest, aesthetic reasons in some cases), it's surely more informative next to a football player or club to link to that nation in the context of the sport, i.e the FA/federation. I agree there is an element of MOS:EGG there but that is also true with the huge list of unlabelled flags and nobody seems bothered about that, and besides, a click to the FA page is only a further click in the lead from the country article itself - a body specifically designated to represent a nation being one of the contexts where a link to that nation is appropriate (not all have this link BTW, but the Trinidad NT and FA articles do, and so does - using a random selection Romania's NT and FA. Using the FA is also something that can be feasibly employed for the women's game without adjustment where national team links can't be. I would like to tag User:S.A. Julio on this as I know they have been using the FA flag link for the teams in international club tournament articles created in the last year or two, again this is obviously something I support and which seems to have been adopted without complaint, although again maybe it's just that nobody noticed. But I was reverted on that by User:Island92 on that when I changed the player flags to FA, as "When the flag is next to the player it refers to his nationality. When the flag is next to the Team it refers to its Federation" - again this makes no sense to me. Either a club and a player represent a nation as a defined by a flag link, or they represent the nation's football federation. I don't see how one can be one way and the other a different way. And again this is both EGGY - the same flag goes to two different links on the same article - and contradictory to the squad template where it is the players' flags going to the FA. I feel all the football-related flag links other than those directly relating to international competitions should go to the FAs, as they are the bodies controlling the national teams (and therefore overseeing eligible players as defined by the flags) and controlling the domestic competitions in which the clubs take part. I wish to formally seek consensus on the matter, so if declaring that now is not sufficient for the process to begin, could someone please advise of the necessary steps to take. And it is potentially a big editing change (though basically unchanged for readers who don't click flag links) so please advise of any other forums and projects that should be notified, or would be a better place to 'host' it. And if the decision goes against me, can we please at least then have the goddamn templates and UEFA club articles amended so they all have the same function, for consistency?? Thanks. Crowsus (talk) 13:29, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

@Crowsus: Don't mean to be rude, but that's a big chunk of text above, a lot of editors will take one look and won't bother reading. That will just put people off from responding to you. I feel that MOS:SPORTFLAG is poorly written, it's down as a guideline, it's not strictly wiki-law now is it. Govvy (talk) 10:44, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

I've put the short version further up now. Crowsus (talk) 13:48, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

I'd contend that not a single person clicking through on a football player's nationality in a football table wants to be taken through to that nation's football association. A link to the national team of the related sport surely makes the most logical sense. Felixsv7 (talk) 19:50, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

No it doesn't, for reasons myself and others have explained above. But I'll explain again: a 16-year-old part time male player has almost no connection to the senior men's national team, and a 16-year-old part time female player has even less. But they are connected to the national body that runs the national team (the article for which has a link to the country itself and the national team if that's where the reader would rather go). Crowsus (talk) 00:20, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

English flag pointing to the Football Association violates WP:EASTEREGG, as well as probably therefore MOS:FLAG itself. One person unilaterally changing to this is disruptive, and should be reverted. Joseph2302 (talk) 20:08, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

if you want to refer to policy links, the unlabelled nationality icons used on many, many pages for top scorers, player lists, rivalry stats etc violate both MOS:FLAG and WP:OVERLINK. The bare minimum that should be done on every one is the change I have just made at Supercopa de España to show the three-letter codes. As for reverting, in the first instance you should probably try to get the changes at the squad template changed first because that currently links to the FA for every single active player in every single team due to its coding. Crowsus (talk) 00:20, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

And I'd say the changes made to Supercopa de España look awful. I just don't believe that all flags (in a table) need to be accompanied with the country's name - as per the example listed on MOS:FLAG. It is there as a quick reference and can be clicked through if the user is unfamiliar with the country. Yes, this may violate some rule, I'm just saying that it looks terrible - especially the three code variant. Felixsv7 (talk) 10:27, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

EFL Trophy Under-21 appearances

...are meant to be listed separately (effectively as a different team) right? I notice that's not the case on 2021–22 Aston Villa F.C. season, where they're counted towards total team appearances, and in the stats sections of the players involved this season. Haven't checked previous seasons, could be the case there too. HornetMike (talk) 00:12, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Correct, the teams are fielded as under-21/23 teams rather than the first team. Mattythewhite (talk) 00:24, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

TV info in season articles?

I noticed on the Brighton article for this season that the game summaries include info about whether each match was televised (e.g. “Live on Sky Sports”). Apparently this is a thing that exists on multiple articles, but my question is, should it? – PeeJay 00:42, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

No it should not. Trivia information. Kante4 (talk) 11:52, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

The main article - say 2021-22 Premier League should probably have some info on broadcasters, but not the teams, unless it's super important, such as a game being moved for TV, or the windfall for a lower league match. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:58, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Well we have the guideline WP:TVGUIDE, I've seen a lot of articles with information on what a match might be view on. That information will expire and becomes pretty much useless. I don't think we should have anything like that on any article. I have pretty much just left stuff alone, but more than happy to remove those notes. Govvy (talk) 12:03, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

GA community assessment

Do you think Cambodia women's national football team still meets WP:GA? ^{Engr. Smitty Werben} 03:44, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

It would probably be easier to fix up than go through GAR. On that note, if they've never entered the world cup, etc... Why are we mentioning them in a table? If there is no current squad, why do we have a table for it? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:00, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

The World Cup table is still useful, as they are eligible to participate in it. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 12:28, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm eligible to play in the World Cup, doesn't mean you would report on all of the previous World Cups that I didn't partake in. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:36, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

I also noticed that the version which was promoted to GA didn't have all of the almost empty sections. There's literally no point listing tournaments they didn't ever enter, as that's ridiculous. Joseph2302 (talk) 11:54, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

That's because the team didn't even exist back in 2012; they played their first game in 2018. I find it weird that an article about a non-existing NT was promoted to GA. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 12:25, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Is first team needed in this infobox

On the page for Charles-Andreas Brym, in the infobox there is a section for both Lille II and Lille. Is the first team needed or can it be removed. He did go on loan, so would it be incorrect to show it "from the second team"? He never appeared for he Lille first team (not even on the bench). RedPatch (talk) 16:00, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't think Lille is needed. Of course, B-teams do not loan players, but since he never did feature with the first team in any extent, I would remove it. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 16:29, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

If he's only ever played for the II team, no need to have the first team, even if he has been loaned out. GiantSnowman 16:38, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Reserve teams can't loan players, so the parent club should remain imo. It's not too different to joining Lille in 2018, and being promptly loaned out the same transfer session to another club, without featuring for Lille. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 16:41, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

I think Lille should stay - he signed a professional contract with Lille, not with Lille II. --SuperJew (talk) 16:47, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

I would include the first team if they have signed a professional contract and/or been involved in a matchday squad. Mattythewhite (talk) 17:06, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Looks like there's no consensus on this. My initial thought was to remove it, since lots of players sign pro contracts with the "first" team, but never end up playing for the first team so we don't include it and only include the second team. RedPatch (talk) 17:11, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

The general editing trend is to REMOVE the club for which he has no appearances in this scenario. The player can be loaned from the reserve side, there is no issue with that. The reserve side is part of the club just as much as is the professional side; note that it's the club loans out the player. Paul Vaurie (talk) 02:14, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

According to Lille itself, he was a Lille professional player, and Lille (not the reserve team) sent him on loan to Belenenses. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 15:46, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Edits at 2021–22 Liga 1 (Indonesia)

Hi all, I want to ask. This user Skyblueshaun is editing the league table, but he put like (3 of 5 matches played) in update date text. Is that even necessary? Before, I always put only the date, even though there are several games not played yet on that date. What do you all think? Please enlighten me. I don't want to involved in edit war. Thanks. Wira rhea (talk) 10:45, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Pinging Mattythewhite, GiantSnowman Wira rhea (talk) 10:52, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't think a round-by-round basis is needed. GiantSnowman 10:57, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: Is the double negative intended? Robby.is.on (talk) 10:59, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

no, sorry! GiantSnowman 11:00, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

@Wira rhea it's unnecessary Dr Salvus 11:00, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

If you don't mention how many of the day's matches have been played, how do you know when it was updated (especially not to add double data on the same match or miss a match that wasn't added yet)? --SuperJew (talk) 11:12, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Simply update it once all the days matches have been played. No live updates! GiantSnowman 11:13, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

By that logic, maybe we should update only once the round is finished? Or only once the tournament is finished? Updating after a match ends is not a live update - live update is when the result can still change. --SuperJew (talk) 12:02, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

It is necessary, it's being used in all the top leagues and how do you know when it was last updated without going into the page history and looking for it. It helps other users when they go to edit they know where to update from. --Skyblueshaun (talk) 11:19, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Add a date, like we do for footballer stats - {{updated|matches played 18 January 2022}}. GiantSnowman 11:44, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't think it's such a bad idea, especially for international tournaments with worldwide visibility (e.g. the World Cup). Reverting upon reverting isn't going to be very useful; adding the amount of games updated is a good compromise imo. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 11:46, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

only if you specify which games have been played and which are the 2 missing... GiantSnowman 11:48, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

It's quite obvious that if it says "3 of 5", it means the first 3. --SuperJew (talk) 12:02, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

If the date isn't enough, why not put the time in like in a footballer's infobox? Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 12:22, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

2021–22 Serie A#League table and 2021–22 Serie A#Results both use date... GiantSnowman 12:53, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

WP:OTHER. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 15:54, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Cute argument. Dates also used 2021–22 Premier League, 2021–22 Ligue 1, 2021–22 La Liga and 2021–22 Bundesliga. I haven't bothered checking any others. Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/League season seems to be quiet on the matter but it is clear what the established standard is for major leagues. GiantSnowman 15:58, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Doesn't rule out the fact that we can discuss to find another (better) solution. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 16:05, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

C'Chartres Football

Hello. This club has a weird name. I need help finding it's common name for infoboxes & stuff - is it Chartres or C'Chartres? Paul Vaurie (talk) 02:12, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

It's C'Chartres. Their website shows this RedPatch (talk) 03:43, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

GAR for Burundi women's national football team

Burundi women's national football team has been nominated for a community good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. -Indy beetle (talk) 04:01, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

It's not even close with all these empty section. Who nominates these :-) -Koppapa (talk)

TBF the article was promoted to GA status a full ten years ago and looked very different at the time..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:34, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Do have a look to Zanzibar women's national football team. The article doesn't even deserve a C class but is a GA Dr Salvus 08:40, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

I had a listen to the spoken versions of both of those articles and they were utter rubbish so I deleted them. – PeeJay 13:06, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

What is the fascination with adding in blank and often unsourceable sections? If you can't find the information then personally I'd not include the section at all. That would greatly improve the quality of the article and it can always be added back when the information is available. (And that doesn't mean you can't add prose outlining why there isn't a current squad for example). Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 13:35, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

This type of behaviour (adding empty sections) is being done by Amara94. BRICK93 used to also do the same. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 15:52, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Please do leave comments at the reassessment page. The problems extend beyond what is empty. -Indy beetle (talk) 23:50, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

RfC to abolish NSPORTS

Please see Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#RfC: Abolish the current version of NSPORTS. GiantSnowman 22:09, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Eugenio Pizzuto

Can someone please take a look at the Eugenio Pizzuto infobox? He played for Lille from 2020 to 2022, but I'm not sure if he was part of the youth team, reserve team, or senior team. Paul Vaurie (talk) 00:00, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

@Paul Vaurie: Seems to have played for the B-team and U19 only, not a single appearance (even on the bench) for the first team. IMO, we should remove the first team from the infobox... BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 00:21, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

According to Soccerway, he was called up nine times to the first team (0 caps), and only once to the reserves (1 cap). Nehme₁₄₉₉ 12:56, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Template colours

Hello! I see that the template colours for the National squad templates have been changed without consensus or without discussing it. For example the Danish and Belgian and other templates have been changed numerous amount of times without discussing. Can you see if you can revert back to the established colours. Yours sincerely, Sondre --88.89.14.227 (talk) 14:44, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Seems like it's one IP user doing them (and I notice I already complained at them a couple of months ago for random colour changes on cricket templates). I've reverted Template:Denmark national football team and Template:Belgium national football team. Will notify them of this thread (since you can't use ping on an IP address). Joseph2302 (talk) 14:49, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Hello! The template colours on the national templates must they always be defaulted?. The colours should be for the team colours etc. There is always a foreground colour, background colour and a bordercolour. Regarding the Cameroon template colours or the Austrian and or Hungarian. And the chilean or Bulgarian if necessary. Yours sincerely, Sondre --88.89.14.227 (talk) 15:37, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Personnel and kits for the 1990/91 and 1991/92 Football League First Division

Hello! Can you add a section for personnel and kits for the 1990/91 and 1991/92 Football League First Division seasons?. It would be valuable information to have. As well as team captains as well. Yours sincerely, Sondre --88.89.14.227 (talk) 16:03, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Starting line-ups

Hello! Can you check if you can get line-up images for European Cup and national cup finals?. For instance the Cup Winners' Cup finals from 1961 until 1963, 1969 until 1972, 1975, 1980, 1985, 1986 and 1989. English Cup finals from 1954 until 1990. UEFA Cup finals from 1972 until 1992. Yours sincerely, Sondre --88.89.14.227 (talk) 16:17, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Didn't someone ask about this a couple of weeks ago? As I said at the time, if anyone can provide a reliable source for the formation used by both teams, I can make line-up graphics for any match. However, I won't make them if the formations can't be sourced. Do you have sources for those games? – PeeJay 21:33, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

@PeeJay: same person, I think -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:30, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Charley McMillan-Lopez

Charley McMillan-Lopez signed for Prestatyn Town this week. A bit of a stir - his now deleted YouTube showreel claimed his playing for Wrexham and Braintree Town, and Wrexham fans on twitter claiming he was never at the club and goals shown on showreel scored not by him but another player. NFT shows him as playing for a bunch of clubs and replicated in the wiki article, but no references. I found evidence of him on the bench for one match at Ashford United and the web throws up a profile at East Thurrock. Also claims to have been at Port Vale, Ebbsfleet and clubs in Estonia and Albania. Anyone else able to find any sources to prove any of the other claimed clubs - including Darford, Sutton United and Tottenham as a youth player. Have provided more detailed references for the two international appearances for the BVI.

Oddly, since this all blew up, showreel removed along with his LinkedIn profile with claimed clubs - and Prestatyn Town have removed/ amended their original tweet Zanoni (talk) 18:33, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

See Wrexham fan forum Zanoni (talk) 18:53, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

I have never seen the name before. When I first saw the article I assumed he must have been at Port Vale when they had a "development squad" of under-21s, however that was during the 2013–14 season. There's just no way a 20/21 year old player would be at the club during the 2016–17 season without getting mentioned in articles, unless he was an unnamed trialist or something. He is supposed to have spent three years with Ebbsfleet United but there's no mention of him anywhere! Supposed to have been with East Thurrock United but does not seem to have played a game. There are no confirmed sightings of him before he was an unused substitute for Ashford United in an FA Cup tie in September 2020, just unsubstantiated links on National Football Teams and TransferMarket.--EchetusXe 10:19, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

A 17 year old from (seemingly) the London area going off to start his pro career in Albania, of all places, also seems a tad unlikely (albeit not impossible, I guess)..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:24, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Likewise there are 0 mentions of him in relation to Estonian club. --BlameRuiner (talk) 10:45, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Adebayo Akinfenwa started his career in Lithuania in fairness! GiantSnowman 21:42, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments - without any reliable sources prior to the East Thurrock link (had already added to article earlier today) what's the view on deleting all the youth clubs and any clubs before Thurrock? Zanoni (talk) 14:09, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, sounds sensible given the clear concerns. GiantSnowman 21:42, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Done Zanoni (talk) 22:39, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Copa de los Balcanes 1929-1931

Hola, en la página Copa de los Balcanes 1929-1931 hay un problema. La plantilla utilizada en el cuadro donde describe los puntos y goles obtenidos por cada selección participante no es la que se debería ocupar ya que los puntos que dan son 3 por partido cuando en la fuente de RSSSF solo da 2 puntos por partido — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lanzaguisantes carnivoro (talk • contribs) 23:32, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Already fixed, 2 points for each win now. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 00:18, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Constant WP:ACMILAN violations

Mediocre Legacy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Can you have a look at his edits? He often violates this rule. What do we do with him? Dr Salvus 06:33, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

I get leaving it as "AC Milan" on player articles, but how come the naming is so inconsistent on competition articles (e.g. it's "AC Milan" in Coppa Italia article but "Milan" in Champions League and Serie A articles)? Mediocre Legacy (talk) 09:30, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Mediocre Legacy, we should always be using AC Milan. Read what's written on WP:ACMILAN. Dr Salvus 10:13, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Explain the Serie A and Champions League articles then? Mediocre Legacy (talk) 10:15, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

I'd guess it just hasn't been updated. Seems odd that it would be just Milan in the first place though. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 10:36, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Mediocre Legacy, I don't know the reason AC Milan isn't being used but it should be used anywhere (except in the expections indicated on WP:ACMILAN) Dr Salvus 11:13, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Mediocre does tones of edits, you haven't even exactly specified what he did so I am confused here. Govvy (talk) 11:22, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

He's referring to this edit. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 12:59, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Ye, that's unhelpful, that's like taking City or United away from Manchester! :/ Govvy (talk) 13:25, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

It's not unhelpful, it's what the club is called. The two clubs in that city are typically called Milan and Internazionale (or Inter). As you can see from this BBC report, after it's been established which team they're talking about, they just call the team Milan (same applies here for Inter). – PeeJay 13:35, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

After it's been established which team they're talking about, they just call the team Milan: this is exactly what WP:ACMILAN does. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 13:37, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

PJ, just posted two BBC links, which show naming formalities, Inter Milan and AC Milan are as titled shown in those links. First instances are AC Milan and Inter Milan in prose, followed by Milan or Inter later in the prose. That's a good example. Govvy (talk) 13:41, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I'm well aware of what WP:ACMILAN says. This edit did not violate WP:ACMILAN. – PeeJay 14:40, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

The bracket counts as an independent table, so AC Milan should be used. "Milan" should only be used in prose, after "AC Milan" has already been used before. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 14:57, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

What? That doesn't make sense? We establish the name AC Milan in the "Participating teams" section, so there's no need to refer to them as AC Milan after that. – PeeJay 15:00, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

PeeJay, the rule refers about lead and body Dr Salvus 15:02, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Right, and tables are part of the body of the article. We're not talking about infoboxes, we're talking about tables, which comprise the actual content of the article. – PeeJay 15:20, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Women's Supercoppa Italiana

The competition has the same Supercopa de España format and it's also played in January of the following year (as Supercopa does). Should we use 20xx-yy year format or 20xx year format to refer to the Women's Supercoppa Italiana seasons? I'm asking as @Cozy1298 uses 2021 format which I believe it's wrong and to avoid to be blocked for edit war Dr Salvus 14:20, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

The FIGC's (not-fully updated) honours section list the 2020–21 Supercoppa Italiana (women) as "2020" ([4]). It doesn't matter how the format was (whether it was played in December 2020 or January 2021), rather how the competition itself was branded (or how it was commonly known by sources). Nehme₁₄₉₉ 14:32, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Nehme1499, you may be right but why do we call the Spanish Supercup with 20xx–yy format? This season is for example known as 2022 (look at the es.wiki article) in Spain Dr Salvus 14:38, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Each country may call its own competition in its own way. We don't necessarily have to have consistency with the naming format. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 14:56, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Nehme1499, so I was wrong.... I'll revert my edits Dr Salvus 14:58, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

I would wait to see what others think. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 14:59, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Requesting protection of Chancel Mbemba

He's been embroiled in an age controversy, and the comedians are coming out to change his birthdate. May we protect the page?--Ortizesp (talk) 14:40, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

@Ortizesp: Request it at WP:RfPP. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 14:44, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, requested.--Ortizesp (talk) 14:52, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

De-colored club templates

It looks like there is a motion in progress to remove colors from the club and other templates based on this and this. Should FOOTY be concerned? I love having the colors but I don't know if I'm able to justify them properly. --BlameRuiner (talk) 20:32, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

That first discussion related to removing coats of arms from navboxes, not colours. MOS:DECOR (which relates to icons like coats of arms) clearly states that they should "serve as visual cues that aid the reader's comprehension" which colours in squad templates etc. clearly do, while WP:NAVCOLOR (which relates to navbox colours) says "There should be justification for a template to deviate from the colors and styles", which, again colours for sports teams clearly aid navigation. If you see people removing them then revert. GiantSnowman 21:17, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

That template (green text on red background) will fail MOS:CONTRAST, as most colour blind people won't be able to read it. That being said, coloured templates seem fine to me, as long as there is enough contrast between colours in them. Joseph2302 (talk) 21:59, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

yes, good point, I remember a discussion about contrasting colours here a few months ago? GiantSnowman 07:45, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Dylan Williams page move

Hey guys just put a request to move this page Talk:Dylan_Williams#Requested_move_22_January_2022--ParkingTheBus (talk) 01:43, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

New drafts

I've created two drafts on Draft:Giuliano Simeone and Draft:Eduardo Oliveira (football manager). I think they're a clear case of WP:TOOSOON, although I'm not sure if any of them may be an article due to WP:GNG. Could someone evaluate this, please? BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 06:09, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

not sure either are currently notable tbh. GiantSnowman 07:47, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Oliveira could be notable if he's managing in the Brazilian top tier. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 12:37, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Team captains

Hello! Can you check regarding team captains for different World Cup teams?. In 1990 f.ex USA used Tony Meola not Mike Windischmann as captain. Stuart Kennedy was used as Scotlands captain for two matches in the 1978 FIFA World Cup and Archie Gemmill was used as captain for one match. Fuad Amin was the Saudi captain for two matches in the 1998 FIFA World Cup. Mohammed Al Jawad was Saudi captain for two match during the 1994 FIFA World Cup. Georges Brégy was the Swiss captain the whole 1994 FIFA World Cup. Paolo Maldini was Italy's captain for the rest of the 1994 World Cup because of Franco Baresi's injury. Check the templates and the squads section. It is important that the teams have the right captains. Yours sincerely, Sondre --88.89.14.227 (talk) 11:14, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Are you talking about, say 1990 FIFA World Cup squads? These list the national captain at the time, not who took over as being captain for certain matches. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:25, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Hello! Yes, I was talking about the 1990 FIFA World Cup squads?. Many teams changes captains accordingly. But the captain at the time is an important thing. The squad section for the 1994 FIFA World Cup and other tournaments. But I think that the list is precise though.

Yours sincerely, Sondre --88.89.14.227 (talk) 12:43, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm not even fully convinced that captaincy is all that important, as, like you say, captains can change per match, if they aren't available or are subbed. We certainly shouldn't be listing all players who took this position though, that's ridiculous. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:39, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Pending proposal to declare NSPORTS an invalid argument at AfD

A new proposal is now pending to add language to NSPORT (and no other SNG) providing, among other things, that "meeting [NSPORTS and NFOOTY] would not serve as a valid keep argument in a deletion discussion." The new proposal is targeted solely at NSPORTS and would not impose similar changes on SNGs for academics, entertainers, politicians, businessmen, or any other group or category. If you have views on this proposal, one way or the other, please feel free to add your comments at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Subproposal 1 (NSPORT). Cbl62 (talk) 14:44, 22 January 2022 (UTC)