Talk:Mary of Burgundy

Untitled

Mary didn't "pick" Maximilian--her father and step-mother had been working on him for years as a possible match for her, as well as to keep the French away. Why are you using the 1911 encyclopedia as a reference for this?

Residence

Does anyone know where the lady lived about the time when her father died? I am extensively researching her.

Pictures

The Dutch & Flemish articles have two very good pics which aren't yet on commons. I'm no good on pics - can someone put them there & here? Thanks Johnbod 17:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC) Done now Johnbod 00:30, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I have a sideboard cabinet purchased from an antique store (originally shipped here to states from Paris) .. with brass pictures on it (3 D). Under Mary and Maximillian's it has their names. It also shows some other ancestors (Durk 1V, and V11). And 4 others. Along with this it shows 2 castles. I cannot read the names, since they have been polished almost off. Does anyone have photo's to the castles where she was born? It shows a 3D picture of Mary and Maximillian exchanging rings...so I assume the two castles are family residences. It also shows family crest over each castle.

External links modified (January 2018)

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Bart Van Loo

Just because someone is not a trained historian, that does not mean they don't meet the requirements of Wikipedia, which does accept even journalists's works and commentaries. I don't see anywhere the requirement that one must only cite trained historians. If we had a lot of sources on the subject to choose from, and the writer in question happened to have a controversial opinion, I would agree that we should move to a better choice. Van Loo's work definitely has an unorthodox, unacademic structure, but I don't hear anywhere that the basic events he describes are contested. Hans Cools, who is certainly a serious historian, thinks that the work does a good job in providing a Netherlandish/Flemings' take on the stature of its dukes, rather than the more known but propaganda-influenced of French (great!) historians like Jules Michelet, and that it provides good psychological portraits of personalities involved. I think the work is notable enough. --Deamonpen (talk) 16:13, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Then take it to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:27, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

I will. And here, regarding this author, you just simply deleted him without bothering to explain your reasoning on this Talk page or linking to any previous discussions.Deamonpen (talk) 17:55, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Pregnancy

Why do we have to make this complicate? I did not just simply reverse the other edit - I choose a middle road. My opinion is that we should just change it to "pregnant" without specific details (third time or fourth time; it was likely not one nor the other). In that way, it does not contradict the source given by the article or other sources, nor will it contradict the apparent fact that this could not have been her third child.Deamonpen (talk) 17:15, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Well, the third child was not referenced, as far as I could tell, and the source for that sentence stated pregnant with her third child. Instead of deleting it and ignoring a reliable source, you could have added a note stating Jansen's view with a contradicting view, say from Joni M. Hand. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:18, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

I did not "delete it", I kept the basic information and changed the other editor's wording to make it approach a safer, more general fact. I will give references to the third child.Deamonpen (talk) 17:21, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

You did not delete "with her third child"? Sure looks like it. I have already made a note and added a reference. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:24, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

You said "delete it" as if I deleted the whole thing or something. Just because a source lists all the intricate details, that does not mean you have copy every single detail from it. Even without reference, the third child had existed in this article before my edits. Adding contradictorial materials that make the article incoherent and confuse readers, without going to the roots of the matter and clarifying, does not help anyone.--Deamonpen (talk) 17:35, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

• "Adding contradictorial materials that make the article incoherent and confuse readers.."

And unsourced information lends nothing to an article either. As I said, there was a way to address this issue and I did that. Deleting even part of referenced information can be seen as disruptive editing, especially when relying on unsourced information. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:51, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Information on Wikipedia should not appear just because it is "cited". "Third time" or "fourth time" is a minor detail, that would not make a huge difference on Mary as a historical character, and consequently no author, that I know, make a big matter out of it. And you didn't seem to hold yourself to the same standard when you deleted Bart van Loo (providing a source that says that he is not reliable).Deamonpen (talk) 18:03, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

• "And you didn't seem to hold yourself to the same standard when you deleted Bart van Loo (providing a source that says that he is not reliable)."

Bart van Loo is not an historian. Fact. His book does not appear on google scholar. Fact.

Per WP:RS;

• "The word "source" when citing sources on Wikipedia has three related meanings:
• "The piece of work itself (the article, book)"
• "The creator of the work (the writer, journalist)"
• "The publisher of the work (for example, Random House or Cambridge University Press)"
• "Any of the three can affect reliability. Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both. These qualifications should be demonstrable to other people."

I am not required to provide any source for your unreliable source. I see nothing that indicates said book should be considered a reliable source. If you think it is a reliable source take it to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:17, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Not every scholarly source appears on Google scholar. By the way, just as said, I don't see WP:RS mentions anything about not citing authors who are not ("trained") historians or not appearing on Google scholar. But you were talking about behaviours and you were emphasizing "cited" sources, then you should demonstrate it yourself. That he is not a historian, is your opinion, not FACT (which you never bothered explaining before you deleted him). He is referred to as a historian on popular media. The concept "historian" is not limited to people with a degree - that is called a "trained historian".Deamonpen (talk) 18:28, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Why the needless reference to Mary of Burgundy’s headwear?

Under the a portrait painting of Mary of Burgundy it is written “Mary of Burgundy wearing a hennin, portrait possibly painted by Michael Pacher, c. 1490.”

Why on earth is it important to state that Mary of Burgundy is wearing something said to be called an “hennin”? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C7:9C97:5D01:584F:7A87:56A9:F548 (talk) 04:02, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't know the reason why the user who wrote that line (User:Excommunicato) did so. I know though that some authors draw attention to the hennin as a notable feature in Mary's portrayal. But imho that suits the art section or any article talking about such matter, and not the profile image. So I've removed that part. Thanks for pointing out the matter.Deamonpen (talk) 13:26, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

People like to know these things. If you don't know what a hennin is, read the article. I've put it back. Deamonpen, please try to avoid false title in your contributions, especially in Br En articles. Johnbod (talk) 14:02, 23 June 2022 (UTC).

I know what a hennin is. I think the other user makes a reasonable request. The thing is that the article (arts section) already mentions the hennin matter. I think that people do not go to this article to explore what a hennin is. There is a whole article about it, and there are other women who wear such headdresses. Should the profile picture's descriptions of all such pages mention the hennin, or other clothing items? Don't get me wrong, I like to read about clothing items. But the profile picture and description should highlight the person, not the clothing, except if the person is famous for the clothing.

Anyway Mary of Burgundy wears the hennin in many portrayals, but not always. It should not be considered an essential feature of hers. She was portrayed without a hennin (bare-headed or with a crown) during her own time too (likely more often than with a hennin), especially in more official settings like on a coin. In the reign of Maximilian, on the other hand, the emperor liked to make it look like she and Bianca Maria had the same imperial status, but Mary was never his queen or empress. The hennin was a nice way to avoid the matter of ducal/archducal/royal/imperial crown (later when Wohlhaupter painted this couple in the 18th century for Fulda in Germany, he could only put the archducal crown on them too; and in modern commemoration events, if they celebrate Emperor Maximilian and his empress in Germany and Austria, that will always be Bianca, even though they know Mary was his preferred consort. Novels, poems, romantic paintings... on the other hand is a totally different matter.). In imaginary/spiritual settings such as Mary as Queen Ehrenreich or Mary as Queen of Heaven, he would not hesitate putting a queen's/empress's crown on her head though. Paintings by important painters like Striegel or Dürer don't show the hennin. And in the work that likely reached the largest number of vỉewers/readers, aka the Theuerdank, she mostly wears a crown. All of these are works that were produced during the later part of his reign.Deamonpen (talk) 14:38, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

The bemuddling uncitationed wording “now mainly in France” should be taken out.

It misbemuddles: “reigned over the Burgundian State, now mainly in France—with the exception of the Duchy of Burgundy returned to the Kingdom of France (1477)—and the Low Countries, from 1477 until her death in a riding accident at the age of 25”

The whole aforshown wording both of and around “now mainly in France” is bemuddling and from what one can eyeball- it is not right to peddle that the aforesaid “Burgundian State” now lies mainly France whatever the percentage of that uncitationed claim.

It is as if to make up some excuse/agenda to write the word “France” as many a times as possible at the beginning of the herein article. Why not also claim said Burgundian State wherever it once lied has spent less time being thought of as France than in it?