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::: Originally I cited Forbes, I did not quite understand why it was not reliable in this context. But there is a plethora of sources, forgive me, I just put the links because proper formatting is too much work, but :
::: Originally I cited Forbes, I did not quite understand why it was not reliable in this context. But there is a plethora of sources, forgive me, I just put the links because proper formatting is too much work, but :


Vox: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/12/30/21042733/bret-stephens-jewish-iq-new-york-times
:::Vox: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/12/30/21042733/bret-stephens-jewish-iq-new-york-times
AEI: https://www.aei.org/articles/the-2011-nobel-prize-and-the-debate-over-jewish-iq/
:::AEI: https://www.aei.org/articles/the-2011-nobel-prize-and-the-debate-over-jewish-iq/
NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/27/opinion/jewish-culture-genius-iq.html
:::NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/27/opinion/jewish-culture-genius-iq.html


Also, it is important that we talk about Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence, because there are so many anti-semitic conspiracy theories out there based on the overrepresentation of the Jews high positions, but that is shown to be bonkers once you simply control for IQ.
:::Also, it is important that we talk about Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence, because there are so many anti-semitic conspiracy theories out there based on the overrepresentation of the Jews high positions, but that is shown to be bonkers once you simply control for IQ.


== Quillette article ==
== Quillette article ==

Revision as of 20:48, 7 August 2022

Former good article nomineeRace and intelligence was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 14, 2005Articles for deletionKept
June 24, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
July 18, 2005Featured article candidateNot promoted
August 25, 2006Good article nomineeNot listed
December 4, 2006Articles for deletionKept
April 11, 2011Articles for deletionKept
February 24, 2020Deletion reviewOverturned
February 29, 2020Articles for deletionKept
Current status: Former good article nominee

Inclusion of Race and intelligence on Template:Evolutionary psychology

@Generalrelative: Well, hello again! I noticed that you reverted my addition of the Evolutionary psychology navigation box to this article. I most certainly do not dispute that the theory that ethnic and racial differences in intelligence are biologically based is an argument that falls under WP:FRINGE but it was based upon assumptions related to group selection, while contemporary evolutionary psychology as proposed by Leda Cosmides and John Tooby is based upon the selfish-genetic view of evolution as proposed by George C. Williams, W. D. Hamilton, John Maynard Smith, and Richard Dawkins in the 1960s and 1970s which was formulated explicitly in rejection of group selection. See Tooby and Cosmides in their 2015 interview with Reason.tv where they note that the principal subject of interest in their field are cultural universals. Cosmides and Tooby initiated the line of research related to the Wason selection task in the 1980s and 1990s that demonstrated that general intelligence itself is more related to non-arbitrary and evolutionarily familiar problems rather than to arbitrary and evolutionarily novel ones in line with longstanding observations made by other critics of the theory such as Thomas Sowell, James R. Flynn, and Richard E. Nisbett (as noted in the Evolution of human intelligence article section about Social exchange theory). I would argue that because Cosmides and Tooby helped formulated the framework that helped displace the racialist theory with one that is still consistent with the mainstream of evolutionary theory warrants its inclusion in the Related topics list of the navbox along with the other articles listed in the parentheses after Unit of selection. -- CommonKnowledgeCreator (talk) 00:55, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello CommonKnowledgeCreator. This is all very interesting, but it still seems to me that the article topic is quite a bit too tangential to the category to merit inclusion. Of course if others agree with you then I will not stand in the way. Generalrelative (talk) 01:46, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Very well. I'll remove until and unless there is consensus on the talk page. -- CommonKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:19, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This article is about a pseudo-scientific subject. Science only comes in indirectly, via the refutation of the pseudo-scientific theory. Since the navigation box is about science, IMHO it should not be added here. Rsk6400 (talk) 07:12, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Does it fit in with evolutionary psychology though, regardless of it is scientific or pseudo-scientific? The navigation box is in it current forms about the wider topic not just science on it. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:51, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Does the navbox include homeopathy, dowsing or lizard people? If so, go ahead and add even more nonsense. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 00:09, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Those are clearly not the same, but if there were appropriate navigation boxes then I would say go ahead and put them there. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:29, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can see, that infobox doesn't have a line for pseudoscience topics. Phrenology is another obvious candidate for such a line since obviously one can tell how evolved an ethnic group are from the shape of their skulls. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 20:12, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Discussion of Polygenic Scores

Another WP:SOCK AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:35, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I have added a paragraph that discusses racial differences in the polygenic scores with references to four reliable sources that talk about them specifically in the context of race. I think this should be enough to meet the criterion of WP:FRIND, laid out by Generalrelative in a previous discussion.

Here it is: As scientists have begun to uncover genetic variants that have genome-wide significant associations with intelligence, they have been able to summarize the distributions of these variants across a wide range of populations using polygenic scores. These polygenic scores may provide evidence of a partial genetic link for differences in intelligence between racial groups in the United States, as traditionally defined.[1][2] However, it is still unclear whether differences in the average incidence of these genetic variants arose as a result of natural selection. [3]Moreover, it is still unclear whether these polygenic scores have the same predictive power across races, as most genome-wide association studies are done in racially homogeneous samples."[4]

LucaCapobianco (talk) 04:21, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Synthesis. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:31, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Would you please explain how any of this is Synthesis?, it seems to me each sentence in the paragraph stands on its own, and is in every article linked to each of them almost verbatim. LucaCapobianco (talk) 04:36, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per this RFC, the theory that a genetic link exists between race and intelligence is WP:FRINGE. Russell T. Warne, who has been an outspoken hereditarian for a long long time, is therefore not a particularly good source - obviously he is going to breathlessly declare every single thing that happens to be proof for his outlandish beliefs, but he isn't independent in the way WP:FRIND requires. The other sources are... a highly-specific isolated study, unusable per WP:SCHOLARSHIP's bit about isolated studies in fields like these, and absolutely not worded in a way that supports the sweeping claims you're trying to use it for, and two papers discounting Warne's breathless conclusions, establishing that, yes, the beliefs he's advocating here are still fringe despite his strident claims. In practice you are trying to put Warne's fringe advocacy in the article with only his own opinion as a relevant source, which is the sort of nonsense that has been discussed here at length (and was part of the reason we had said RFC to begin with.) The point of WP:FRIND is that you need to find acknowledgment of hereditarian claims from people who are not part of the movement, and I'm not seeing that here. --Aquillion (talk) 07:24, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In addition, the single study (on Jews and Lutherans) is coauthored by the researcher Emil Kirkegaard, one of the founders of the fringe journal OpenPsych. Skllagyook (talk) 09:08, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Polygenic scores mediate the Jewish phenotypic advantage in educational attainment and cognitive ability compared with Catholics and Lutherans". Evolutionary Behavioral Sciences. 13: 366–375.
  2. ^ "Between-Group Mean Differences in Intelligence in the United States Are >0% Genetically Caused: Five Converging Lines of Evidence". The American Journal of Psychology. 134: 480–501.
  3. ^ "No support for the hereditarian hypothesis of the Black–White achievement gap using polygenic scores and tests for divergent selection". American Journal of Physical Anthropology. 175: 465–476.
  4. ^ "Polygenic Influence on Educational Attainment: New Evidence From the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent to Adult Health". AERA Open. 1.

Does the FAQ above this talk page need more citation?

I think the FAQ above this talk page need more citation. GUT412454 (talk) 10:42, 4 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ashkenazi intelligence

Ok, so I read this pathetic outpour in the 'net about how wikipedia is wrong and blahblah. And also that it censores science. I wouldn't want to see Wikipedia censor science, so I decided to take a look.

In a deletion discussion (one of many), there was one very sound argument for deleting it: the same could be covered by Race and Intelligence, and should be, since not every fringe theory deserves its own page. All good. HOWEVER, this page doesn't mention the theory at all! So, on to find if the scientific sources listed in a late version of the article are found, here's four that seem prominent (peer-reviewed, published): [1] [2] [3] [4]

I think it would serve Wikipedia well to critique these sources, and salvage into this article what can be salvaged, about the clearly existing and notable "exceptional Ashkenazi genetic intelligence" theory.

-- Sigmundur (talk) 12:37, 19 July 2022 (UTC) Sigmundur (talk) 12:37, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You have linked a discussion from 2007, which closed as no consensus. I suggest you read the latest AfD discussion instead. [11]. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:54, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The Quillette article you linked is, at the very best, dishonest. At worst, it's a steaming pile of bullshit used to advocate racism. Happy (Slap me) 13:12, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quillette, per WP:RSP, is not a reliable source for facts. Obviously we're not going to change our articles in response to their opinions. The sources you've published are largely fringe - the first one is a book review that specifically describes the book as unreliable and controversial, summarizing its argument as limited and biased. The second barely intelligence, and only in passing. The third is the very book that your first source dismisses as trash. The final one is... Richard Lynn, most notable for his work at Mankind Quarterly, the journal of scientific racism. This is the sort of unreliable, unscientific nonsense you get when you search for sources to back up a culture-war-trash source like Quillette. If that's all you can drudge up in support of their nonsense, it's certainly not notable. --Aquillion (talk) 18:32, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oh god, I came here to talk about this very thing and it looks like someone was already doing it. Does anyone know why there is no mention of Ashklenazi Jews in this article? Also, in the section on test scores, I think we should differentiate between South Asians and East Asians. Asian is a term that is too broad, it encompasses everyone from Syrians to Koreans.TheHaberProcess (talk) 18:11, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you should not just check that somebody is discussing this but also read what they write? They write that the sources are crap. Without useable sources, we cannot mention the subject. The same holds for Asians. --Hob Gadling (talk) 18:51, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Just noticed that this was a bit unfair since the last contribution saying the sources are crap was newer than the "oh god" contribution. Still, there you have the reason. --Hob Gadling (talk) 19:01, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
When I added it I added it with this source[5]. It looks OK to me. I also found it odd the article does not mention Ashkenazi Jews at all because our are widely debated by people who study this.
That's a passing mention in a book review (again). These sorts of sources just don't support the assertion that this is an important aspect of the subject. --Aquillion (talk) 20:34, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Originally I cited Forbes, I did not quite understand why it was not reliable in this context. But there is a plethora of sources, forgive me, I just put the links because proper formatting is too much work, but :
Vox: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/12/30/21042733/bret-stephens-jewish-iq-new-york-times
AEI: https://www.aei.org/articles/the-2011-nobel-prize-and-the-debate-over-jewish-iq/
NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/27/opinion/jewish-culture-genius-iq.html
Also, it is important that we talk about Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence, because there are so many anti-semitic conspiracy theories out there based on the overrepresentation of the Jews high positions, but that is shown to be bonkers once you simply control for IQ.

Quillette article

Pretty fun. https://quillette.com/2022/07/18/cognitive-distortions/ - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 04:30, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

See the section above. --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:55, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Short description

Our article's prior short description was: "Discussions and claims of differences in intelligence along racial lines."

I edited it to to read: "Differences in average intelligence between races."

My explanation: "Per WP:AVI, replaced vague, unhelpful, and musteline short description… Removed "discussions of" as this is an encyclopedia article. Removed "along racial lines" as it's unnecessarily vague. Removed "claims of" in accordance with WP:NPOV, MOS:DOUBT, and MOS:CLAIM—while the cause(s) may remain controversial, expert consensus has long acknowledged significant differences, as measured by IQ."

Three minutes later, my edit was summarily reverted, with the sole explanation: "nope - we don't assert as fact minority-opinion claims." The reverting editor initiated no discussion on the Talk page, offered no explanation of what these "minority-opinion claims" might be, and blithely ignored the guidance in WP:REVONLY while wholesale reverting my tripartite edit and explanation.

As I'd written in my explanation, the fact that there are differences in average tested intelligence between racial groups is the majority, consensus view. The text of our article makes this abundantly clear:

  • "In the US, individuals identifying themselves as Asian generally tend to score higher on IQ tests than Caucasians, who tend to score higher than Hispanics, who tend to score higher than African Americans."
  • "...differences in average test performance between racial groups were observed…"
  • "A 2001 meta-analysis of the results of 6,246,729 participants tested for cognitive ability or aptitude found a difference in average scores between black people and white people of 1.1 standard deviations. Consistent results were found for college and university application tests such as the Scholastic Aptitude Test (N = 2.4 million) and Graduate Record Examination (N = 2.3 million), as well as for tests of job applicants in corporate settings (N = 0.5 million) and in the military (N = 0.4 million)."
  • The article cites the Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns report to establish the "consensus" that differences in intelligence between races exist: "Regarding group differences, the report reaffirmed the consensus that differences within groups are much wider than differences between groups." The report itself is specific about those differences: "African American IQ scores have long averaged about 15 points below those of Whites, with correspondingly lower scores on academic achievement tests."

Indeed, the entire article is about, as I succinctly summarized: "Differences in average intelligence between races." While much of the article is devoted to deconstructing the terms and meanings of "race" and "intelligence" while promulgating a minority view that none of the differences in average intelligence between races could possibly be genetic in origin—nowhere does our article reference any consensus that differences in average intelligence between racial groups do not exist or that their existence is merely a "minority-opinion claim". Indeed, the exact opposite is true.

I welcome input regarding our short description—but the mealy-mouthed one that is there now serves our article poorly, and contradicts a host of Wikipedia guidance. Thanks! ElleTheBelle 16:32, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Test results are not the same as intelligence. Your edit summary made it seem like a difference in intelligence really existed. And we already had this discussion about three or four hundred times on this talk page, so other editors with more patience may reply to you again, but I won't. Rsk6400 (talk) 16:55, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ Wills, Christopher (February 11, 2009). "Review: The 10,000 Year Explosion by Gregory Cochran and Henry Harpending". New Scientist. 201 (2695): 46–47. doi:10.1016/S0262-4079(09)60457-7.
  2. ^ Bray, Steven M.; Jennifer G. Mulle, Anne F. Dodd, Ann E. Pulver, Stephen Wooding, and Stephen T. Warren. "Signatures of founder effects, admixture, and selection in the Jewish population", Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 14 September 2010; 107(37): 16222–16227. doi:10.1073/pnas.1004381107
  3. ^ G. Cochran, J. Hardy, H. Harpending. "Natural History of Intelligence" Archived September 11, 2013, at the Wayback Machine, Journal of Biosocial Science 38 (5), pp. 659–693 (2006), University of Utah
  4. ^ Lynn, R. and Longley, D. (2006). "On the high intelligence and cognitive achievements of Jews in Britain." Intelligence, 34, 541–547.
  5. ^ "The IQ Wars Reconsidered" (PDF). Contemporary Sociology. 10-15 points IQ advantage of Ashkenazi Jews
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