Talk:HIV/AIDS

Gay men and misconceptions

SassyGamer483, are you unfamiliar with the history of this? Why would you change it to "gay people" instead of "gay men"? Gender-neutral language is great for many things, but not for this. Maybe you need to review the sources? Or I should provide a few here for enlightenment? Enlightenedstranger0 (talk) 23:45, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

"Gay men are the primary focus of these beliefs". We can't rely on anyone's beliefs. Why does it matter that "most of the initial cases of HIV were gay men"? How can we be so sure that all gay people who got infected after the discovery of HIV had male gonads? Some people may have been mistakenly forgotten? If you didn't already know, gender is not binary. Why do we really need to relate transmission of diseases with genders when there are so many genders?

As a matter of fact, HIV-AIDS can happen to anyone, including non-binary people and people belonging to LGBTQ+ communities. I thought this was easy to understand [User:SassyGamer483|SassyGamer483]] (talk) 07:50, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

SassyGamer483, sadly, many do not understand HIV-AIDS and there are many misconceptions about the disease. The sentence under dispute here is about one of them, and it's focused on gay men specifically. Enlightenedstranger0, if you know of any good sources that discuss the misconception (and also the one about drug users), it is a little strange that the clause at the end of the sentence is unsourced. Firefangledfeathers 13:26, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

I know, but the term "gay" becomes irrelevant in context of non-binary people. There is no need to specify that a certain misconception about a widespread disease was "focused only on gay men" when this misconception could have affected any gender. It's just a endless loop of discrimination which can be stopped by unity and teamwork. SassyGamer483 (talk) 16:05, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

I am not sure there's a term besides 'gay men' that is (a) supported by the sources and (b) precisely describes those targeted by the misconception. "Gay people" would include many groups of people that have been unaffected by this specific misconception. "Gay and bisexual men" might work, as could "men who have sex with men" (though a bit clinical). "Men" might be the issue here; maybe "males"? Firefangledfeathers 16:09, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

And have any damages done by this misconception to concerned people been compensated? If you don't know about LGBTQ+ terms then please see here, here and here. Why exactly is there a need to specify which group(s) of people was/were affected? Why does this specification matter? Would it matter in the future too? SassyGamer483 (talk) 16:34, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

As far as I know, no one has been compensated for the damage done by the misconception. I don't claim to be an expert on LGBTQ+ terms, but I'm familiar with what's present at those links already. To be clear, I am fine with the status quo, and was tossing out some alternatives to try and reach a new consensus. Perhaps you have another that you'd support? Firefangledfeathers 17:00, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

We should try to make every article gender-neutral and inclusive of all genders, starting with this article. I have settled on changing "gay men" to "gay people". If any help is needed in gathering references for the concerned sentence, I will available some 14 hours later from now (UTC 07:30). Have a good day SassyGamer483 (talk) 17:36, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

SassyGamer483, when a misconception is about a specific gender, you/we can't make that about every gender. You asked, "Why exactly is there a need to specify which group(s) of people was/were affected? Why does this specification matter?" It matters because the group is gay men (or MSM, depending on the source's terminology) and this is important historical information. I have to say that your question is like asking, "What does it matter that a certain misconception or stereotype is about bisexual people? Why don't we just say 'people' instead of 'bisexual people'?" Well, in all obviousness, we say "bisexual people" because it's about them. And we say "gay men" or "MSM" because it's about them. Attempts to make it about all people just isn't accurate. MOS:GNL says to use gender-neutral language when this can be done with clarity and precision, and the text should not be altered when about one-gender contexts. Enlightenedstranger0 (talk) 00:27, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Back when the misconceptions about HIV/AIDS were most prominent, gay (and bisexual) men were at the forefront. Certainly, some thought that only gay (or bisexual) men or lesbians, drug users, and sex workers could get AIDS, but the focus was on the men because of the prevalence data. In that atmosphere, no one said, "Non-binary people [are this and that]." You have to know that identifying as non-binary was not close to as widespread back then as it is now. And even if some of these people who were labeled "gay or bisexual men" had a non-binary identity, we don't know that. What we know is what gender label was used for these people, what happened partly based on that (as they were having sex with men), and what the sources say. Firefangledfeathers, I wonder if any of the pre-existing sources in that sentence support "that HIV can infect only gay men and drug users." I've added sources, using more recent ones instead of ones from the late 1990s, 2000s, or early 2010s. I'm unsure about the publisher "Critical Publishing", as I haven't cited them until now. SassyGamer483, please follow the sources and not your own analysis, and allow readers the integrity of historical record. This edit you made is borderline acceptable, in that it may be acceptable to keep it since gay bowel syndrome was always a problematic term. Still, the term was a descriptor focused on gay men and the HIV/AIDS article shouldn't lose context like this. Enlightenedstranger0 (talk) 00:47, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. And it's odd that just as there is more recognition nowadays that being "colorblind" in matters of race can be harmful - e.g. the very different meanings of Black Lives Matter and All Lives Matter - we have people thinking that the progressive thing to do with sex and gender is to remove all specificity in such topics. That is not truly progressive or helpful, and in any case is against our policies of WP:NOTADVOCACY and WP:STICKTOSOURCE. Enlightenedstranger0, feel free to ping me in any case where an editor is pushing to inappropriately impose sex/gender neutrality onto an article. Crossroads ^-talk- 03:37, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Please elaborate what you think is progressive then. We have yet to find out which and how many groups of people were affected by this misconception and whether they have been compensated for any damages done. Being inclusive of all genders, gender-neutrality is always progressive. Ultimately whether heterosexual or homosexual or bisexual or pansexual, men = normal people, women = normal people, non-binary people = also normal people and genderqueer people = also normal people. Hence, besides this misconception about gay people, many other misconceptions about less recognized genders also have to be mentioned as needed. According to sociological jargon such as intersectionality coined by philosopher Kimberlé Williams Crenshaw, black LGBTQ+ individuals also face racism, and on top of that triple oppression. Be it any pandemic, HIV or COVID, laws made by genuine global organizations such as UNHRC, UNICEF and HRC have more importance than Wikipedia policies. Since all Wikipedia policies still have to be followed, they should be amended accordingly for global inclusion of all genders. Perhaps unreasonable resistance created by uninformed users dissuades trans, non-binary and genderqueer individuals to edit Wikipedia. I wish that they also be given freedom and encouraged to be Wikipedians if they are beginners. SassyGamer483 (talk) 09:18, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

"...even if some of these people who were labeled "gay or bisexual men" had a non-binary identity, we don't know that" We can and we will know that, because it is surely a possibility. Whoever made the sentence which is "focused on gay men specifically" apparently either did not do enough research into groups of people who were infected with HIV between 1970 and 2000, or some groups of people were disregarded and/or unidentified. Don't dismiss the obvious fact that many non-binary people and quite a big number of trans men and trans women coming under the non-binary umbrella, whether gay or not, also get infected with HIV. They are minorities with many misconceptions against them. If you or anyone is/was unaware, being non-binary is not a choice; non-binary people are born like that. "Non-binary people are unreal" is a major misconception which also has to be emphasized everywhere, including this article. SassyGamer483 (talk) 07:51, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

This truly, really, truly isn't about which other groups were affected or "compensated for any damages done" (whatever that is supposed to mean). It's about a misconception (a prominent misconception) about gay men. Full stop. You can't argue for inclusivity on something like that. You can try, but it doesn't work. And it's so peculiar to me that you're trying to do it. You can't take a misconception about one group and "share" it with another group in an attempt to make the misconception also about that other group. You truly don't understand that? Do you do this same thing when the subject is misconceptions about women? Derogatory terms specifically meant to describe and shame or oppress women? Your goal is to then say, "It's misconceptions and derogatory terms about everybody."? Crossroads mentioned Black Lives Matter. What about when the subject concerns racism and misconceptions and derogatory terms about black people? I also think you're overstepping by speaking for all non-binary people, as they have varied views, including on whether they view their non-binary identity as a choice. Enlightenedstranger0 (talk) 23:18, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

@Enlightenedstranger0: Alright, I agree with you on the decision that this misconception "focused on gay men specifically" should be retained for historical reasons. Of course it is another obvious fact that being non-binary is not a choice and non-binary people are born outside the binary spectrum of genders; let me provide scientific evidences from here, here and here. I request for misconceptions concerning trans people and non-binary people about HIV infection to be mentioned as well. Can we collaborate for that? SassyGamer483 (talk) 06:17, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

The sources you've given us here for "not a choice" regarding non-binary identity don't exactly support what you've said here or added over there. When I say non-binary people "have varied views, including on whether they view their non-binary identity as a choice," I mean those (and they do exist) who say they chose a non-binary identity to challenge or reject the gender binary, like this person over at Aeon. This is sort of similar to people who identify as queer as a political statement. They may very well be gay or lesbian, but they use queer for a personal reason, such as its perceived provocativeness to some or powerful message of reclamation. The person from Aeon views nonbinary identity as "an unabashedly political identity" and says "nonbinary identity is open to anyone and forced upon no one. It is radically anti-essentialist. It is opt-in only." They say they "and other nonbinary persons question why we categorise people as women and men at all." Queer Theologies: The Basics says "A person may choose to self-identify as 'agender', which means they don't adopt binary gender labels." and "There are other terms used by people to reject gender labels and gender identities, including 'non-binary', 'genderqueer', 'genderfluid', 'gendervariant'." Do you see how that source says "to reject"? You probably know this, but many non-binary people don't identify as trans. A person who identifies as genderfluid (one of the non-binary identities) may have been assigned male at birth, identify as a man, and use masculine pronouns or masculine and "they" pronouns. There are cisgender gay men and lesbians who sometimes but not always identify as non-binary. Some feel a duality between being cisgender and not cisgender. Enlightenedstranger0 (talk) 23:40, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

If your argument is that people are born agender, bigender, trigender, demigender, or pangender, you've provided no scientific evidence for that. These are also fairly new conceptualizations. If your argument is that they are new conceptualizations for feelings that have always existed, you've also provided no scientific sources or other sources for that. Some sources, like this one by The College Writer, say (or report people saying) that "this is a generation that has emerged with different understandings about gender and sexuality" and refuse to be labeled. When some people say they identify as non-binary to specifically reject the gender binary/as a political statement, or sources say it's partly generational, it's not accurate to say everyone with a non-binary identity feels they were born genderless or with a fluctuating gender. As this discussion isn't about whether people are born (or always born) non-binary, I'm also not asking you to provide such sources. Yes, if you have good sources about HIV/AIDS misconceptions as they pertain to trans gay men or non-binary people, I have not one issue with this information being added to the article. Enlightenedstranger0 (talk) 23:51, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

I need help with providing reliable sources. This article needs more experts in biology, anthropology and genetics. It would be better if we do teamwork SassyGamer483 (talk) 14:16, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

If there are sources that say "cisgender gay men" for "HIV can infect only gay men", we can try that to acknowledge trans gay men, and non-binary people to an extent, in that way. But, and this can't be said enough, the misconception we're talking about here is not about trans gay men. Trans visibility wasn't what it is now at that point in time. Neither was the incidence of out trans gay men, or other people identifying as trans. I've provided a couple sources here. You have the chance to try and provide sources to support what you've said about about HIV/AIDS as it pertains to misconceptions about trans men and non-binary people. But even if we add something about these populations to the article regarding misconceptions, it doesn't follow that the information about cisgender gay men should then be removed. Since the way HIV/AIDS affected gay men (the sheer extent of it), and the way they were highlighted and treated forms a huge chunk of the HIV/AIDS topic and is of great historical importance, it's very pertinent that it's covered in this article. Enlightenedstranger0 (talk) 23:23, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not seeing any reason to change existing article text. And I will say it is rather unusual to say the least for someone who sincerely holds the sociopolitical viewpoint that SassyGamer ostensibly holds to go so far as to say a misconception "has to be emphasized everywhere", and especially to refer to intersectionality and triple oppression as "jargon". If this person is sincere, they need to read WP:NOTADVOCACY and WP:Right great wrongs. Wikipedia follows the sources that are specifically about the topic being discussed, and with WP:Due weight. Crossroads ^-talk- 03:39, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Are you sure that any private organizations don't advocate themselves on Wikipedia? Are they really kept in check? That's unconfirmed and questionable. Should LGBTQ+ Non-Profit Organizations and concerned charities not be mentioned on Wikipedia to reach out to poor strata of society who are suffering from diseases like HIV and COVID-19? And please let me ask you, do trans people and non-binary people seem any sort of "organizations" to you? I think you mistook the word for "organisms" or, here, individual human beings. What you want to convey is unbelievable SassyGamer483 (talk) 06:43, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Sure, retain all text in the history and misconceptions sections as it is. Exactly, trans visibility and non-binary visibility are more important now, so can you please give valid reasons as to not including misconceptions about trans people and non-binary people? Their experiences with HIV also matter. I also find it strange that majority of editors who created and expanded this article (and many other articles) are cisgender male-dominant. It's questionable as to how this article has been rated as a GA-Class article when it does not acknowledge all genders and is barely gender-neutral except the misconceptions section. We rarely come across female editors, trans editors and non-binary editors and that's disappointing. Has been for a long time SassyGamer483 (talk) 06:31, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, if you have good sources about HIV/AIDS misconceptions as they pertain to trans gay men or non-binary people, I have not one issue with this information being added to the article. Enlightenedstranger0 (talk) 23:51, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

I can try adding sources, but any help would be very appreciated. SassyGamer483 (talk) 04:17, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do. Enlightenedstranger0 (talk) 23:36, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Human Rights Campaign says, "Despite several years of research on HIV/AIDS and the populations it affects, we know very little about transgender people and HIV. In the vast majority of studies, transgender people have only been counted as their sex assigned at birth, which not only discounts their identities, but leaves them relatively invisible to public health officials and advocacy organizations working toward prevention, treatment, and HIV-related health care. The few recent studies that consider transgender women (and even fewer that consider transgender men) as a specific group reveal alarmingly high HIV infection rates."

So because there's little research on these populations, misconception information about them is going to be hard to come by. Enlightenedstranger0 (talk) 23:58, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

So what you can do is add different information about them. It doesn't have to be about misconceptions. Enlightenedstranger0 (talk) 00:14, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

References

Numbers vs. numbers

Article has numbers:

As of 2016 about 675,000 people have died of HIV/AIDS in the US since the beginning of the HIV epidemic.

citing "CDC FACT SHEET Today’s HIV/AIDS Epidemic" (August 2016)

But when I go to today's CDC site the first recent data I find is "HIV in the U.S. by the Numbers – Current Year" (December 2021) saying "HIV-Related Deaths, through 2019" is 551,779.

Clearly there is a disparity in numbers, and people can point to WP again and laugh. (Or would that be the CDC?) Anyway, I can use either number, as 40 years of HIV is less deaths than 2 years of COVID in the USA, but strangely the new stigma is against masking? Both are viruses, but the reactions are completely different? Shenme (talk) 04:47, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 February 2022

Hey, Wikipedia Team, I wanted to Edit the HIV/Aids Page, and want to Add some Matter on this page. Taazeemshaikh (talk) 20:59, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. —GMX^{(on the go!)} 21:12, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 July 2022

In the information box prevention section, this article cites circumcision as a method of prevention. This is not proven, carries its own risks of serious injury or death and is an immoral act of genital mutilation on non consenting children. 2A00:23C6:22A7:8101:BDA4:B78C:67AF:EDB3 (talk) 22:44, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Nythar (talk) 22:50, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

I'd propose two changes to go along with this edit request:

1) Remove 'male circumcision' from the 'Prevention' section of the infobox.

2) Change the first sentence of the second paragraph under the Prevention section from "Circumcision in sub-Saharan Africa "reduces the acquisition of HIV by heterosexual men by between 38% and 66% over 24 months"." to instead read: "A study showed that Circumcision in sub-Saharan Africa reduced the rate of acquisition of HIV by heterosexual men from infected partners by between 38% and 66% over 24 months".

I'm proposing these two changes as they are slight misinterpretations of the cited study, and are misleading. Additionally, the study states "at a local level, further research will be needed to assess whether implementing [circumcision] is feasible, appropriate, and cost-effective in different settings." Sourpanda (talk) 15:28, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Hiv

Ok 103.203.230.29 (talk) 12:01, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Citation n. 185 ("Half of infants born with HIV die before two years of age without treatment.")

The article states:"Half of infants born with HIV die before two years of age without treatment.", but the citation (UNAIDS 2011 pg. 150–160) is not valid, the document I found with this title (https://www.unaids.org/en/resources/documents/2011/20111121_JC2216_WorldAIDSday_report_2011) has no 150-160 pages, and this is not found in it. It is quite a big claim with no credible reference. 2A02:AB88:368D:F680:46E:24D9:A6A1:5356 (talk) 21:55, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for identifying a problem. Unfortunately the subsection defining these references was renamed and modified over time so its purpose became unclear until it was eventually removed back in 2018 [1]. I have added it back with a hidden comment to try and prevent this happening again. The correct reference is Global HIV/AIDS Response, Epidemic update and health sector progress towards universal access [2] which sort of supports the claim. On page 159 (our article uses a wider page range, in part because the reference is used for two different things) it says "Without diagnosis and effective treatment, one third of infants living with HIV die before the age of one year and almost half during their second year of life." I'd interpret this to mean 1/3 die before 1 and nearly 1/2 (of all, not of those still alive) die between 1-2 meaning nearly 5/6s have died before the age of two so well over 1/2 have died before the age of 2. However perhaps I'm reading this wrong. I've added a tag on our article to request clarification perhaps via a better source. Nil Einne (talk) 13:05, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Suggestion to change order of table "Average per act risk of getting HIV by exposure route to an infected source" by lowest chance of infection

The below is ordered by highest chance of infection first then the lowest chance of infection second. I think this helps communicate that for HIV/AIDS insertive penile-vaginal intercourse is more risky (in the worst case) than receptive penile-vaginal intercourse (in the worst case), and is easier to read.

Blood transfusion	90%
Childbirth (to child)	25%[clarification needed]
Receptive anal intercourse*	0.04–3.0%
Needle-sharing injection drug use	0.67%
Insertive penile-vaginal intercourse*	0.01–0.38%
Percutaneous needle stick	0.30%
Receptive penile-vaginal intercourse*	0.05–0.30%
Receptive oral intercourse*§	0–0.04%
Insertive anal intercourse*	0.03%
Insertive oral intercourse*§	0–0.005%

Wallby (talk) 15:14, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 April 2023

Hi, there's a mistake in the page. It says Kaposi's Sarcoma and Burkitt lymphoma are both associated with HHV-8 (human herpes virus 8), but this isn't true. Kaposi's Sarcoma is, but Burkitt lymphoma is actually associated with EBV (Epstein-Barr virus). Medical fanatic (talk) 08:15, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

@Medical fanatic: Thanks. However, WP:MEDRS does require a source for that. Kleuske (talk) 10:11, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. M.Bitton (talk) 11:15, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Almost certainly the editors who replied here cannot easily WP:V the article's claim that is being disputed by the person they've replied to, because the ref used is a chapter of a book (Principles and Practice of Infectious Diseases) that costs - probably a lot of - money. Now that someone has disputed the claim, my opinion is that the existing ref could be tagged with {{Request quotation}}, or something similar. The book is used as a ref a whopping thirty times in this article, so likely one or more editors have access to it, and can add a relevant quote. This would allow the person replied to, and the rest of us, to at least get a better idea of the validity of the article's claim. --2001:1C06:19CA:D600:E8FE:CF10:D669:77BC (talk) 06:32, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Rent

In § Stigma, you could internally link Rent to Rent (musical). --2001:1C06:19CA:D600:DFCE:FF65:E3F7:5139 (talk) 20:30, 5 May 2023 (UTC)