Talk:Pit bull

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Breed related risk

I'm trying to understand this edit [1] by NolanAlex (talk · contribs) (Welcome back, I see this was the first edit from this account in 12 years). The sentence from the article that's disputed is, Dog bite severity varies by the breed of dog, and studies have found that pit bull-type dogs have both the highest risk of biting and a tendency to produce the most severe injuries. The first source for that is Essig et al. which says, Injuries from Pitbull's (sic) and mixed breed dogs were both more frequent and more severe....The high risk breeds had both a high rate of biting and caused significant injury. and the second source is Taylor et al., that who wrote that The most known dog breeds that were involved in this study were pit bull and German shepherd breeds, which is consistent with the literature.19, 20, 21, 22 and those cites in Taylor represent four additional sources on the breed-related risk of pitbull ownership that can always be found and added to the article as well. Geogene (talk) 19:27, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

There are 2 components to the original wording "highest risk of biting" and "tendency to produce most severe injuries."

Only the first reference discusses severity. It reports the following (figure 2 and figure 3). A higher number indicates greater severity, as measured by tissue damagae. I don't think the linked references supports the original wording of "most severe" since there were other breeds that were reported as more severe on average in the reference.

Highest Severity

1. Mixed -- 4.2

2. Great Dane -- 4.0

3 (tie). St. Bernard 3.8

3 (tie). Pit Bull -- 3.8

The 1st study discusses rates of reported bites to face. It found that pitbulls had a higher rate of reported bites to head and neck that were severe enough to require emergency room treatment other breeds. The 2nd study doesn't discuss rate only total number. It found that ~10% of reported bites were by pitbulls or pit mixes, and the vast majority were unknown breed (presumably mixed). I don't think the original wording of "highest risk of biting" (in all situations) is a good representation of the first study finding of highest rate of bites to head that were severe enough to require emergency room treatment. There have been other studies that found other breeds had a higher rates of bites in general (not just emergency room bites to head). An example is https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0168159108001147 , which found that pitbulls had an average rate of reported attempted bites to humans compared to other breeds and a lower rate than numerous other breeds.

I believe my edited wording is a more accurate representation of the references. You quoted the references directly. An alternative would be to use a direct quotes from the references like this, rather than rewording. NolanAlex (talk) 20:45, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Temperament

This article only talks about pit bull dogs biting people and being aggressive. It does not discuss other aspects of pit bull temperament like the entries for other types of dogs do. Many pit bulls are loyal, loving, and caring dogs who are great with children and families. Some are docile. It would be great to have a more well-rounded discussion of temperament besides just the popular perception that they bite. 104.49.199.31 (talk) 18:06, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Unfortunately this page is routinely brigaded by an anti-Pit Bull hating group on Reddit. I would recommend double-checking sources and removing unreliable claims by yourself, as well as adding new sources, if you have the necessary expertise. People up on this discussion have pointed out that many sources on this article are unreliable.

As well:

-- Queen of Wa, friend of Wei (talk) 19:42, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

"Many pit bulls are loyal, loving, and caring dogs who are great with children and families" Are there any statistics/sources for this? Aside from anecdotal evidence. 2800:A4:17B9:9600:CDEA:C2CD:A274:C23E (talk) 13:28, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue#Pedantry,_and_other_didactic_arguments

Read the infobox you literally replied to as well.

--Queen of Wa, friend of Wei (talk) 22:25, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Canvassing from Reddit

Pro-pitbull editors are being recruited here, in violation of WP:CANVASS. Geogene (talk) 02:51, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Unfortunately I’ve seen the anti-pit folk do that as well. It’s going to be hard to make this article neutral and transparent if both sides are brigading. Since every username is taken, I am Bob. (talk) 15:06, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Anti-pitbull editors have been recruited here and here and here and here , in violation of WP:CANVASS. Unbiased6969 (talk) 06:38, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

"The term [Pit bull] was first used in 1927"

There are many records of the use of this term well before 1927 as we can see for example in "The Dog Fancier, v.14, 1905. Eugene Glass" and in subsequent years volumes like in "The Dog Fancier (Established 1891), Vol. 22, No. 4. Battle Creek, Mich., U.S.A., April, 1913". However, it is difficult to define when the term was first used. So it would be better not to mention a specific date. Adventurous36 (talk) 22:04, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Very interesting find, it seems the article may need tweaking. I checked page 46 in your second link, "winner of 3 pit battles", charming.

The current source at "The term was first used in 1927" [2] (that's WP:LEAD only btw, not good WP-writing) states

"First Known Use 1927, in the meaning defined at sense 1" and sense 1 is

"or pit bull terrier : a muscular, short-haired, stocky dog (such as an American pit bull terrier or American Staffordshire terrier) of any of several breeds or a hybrid with one or more of these breeds that was originally developed for fighting and is noted for strength, stamina, and tenacity"

It seems to me that your 1913 source (can't tell on the 1905) is using the term in the same sense, but I'm not an expert. Per that source, I could go with something like "has been used since at least early 20th century." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:49, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Fwiw, here's a little info on The Dog Fancier: [3] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:57, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

I changed the article like so [4]. I ignored the 1905 source for now since I only see small snippets, but the new text fits anyway. It seems quite possible per that source that "pit bull" was used in the 19th century, but atm that's guessing. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:15, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Updated to one from 1903. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:34, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

As A Symbol Bias

Are we going to talk about the bias in the Symbol? I mean tying pitbulls to white supremacists without also mentioning that

"Strong cultural ties exist between pit bull dogs and the Black community. The same is true of the Latino community. Research undertaken here to investigate this claim suggests that people of color are perceived to be the most likely owner of this breed of dog."[5]

Unbiased6969 (talk) 06:54, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

That may deserve a mention somewhere, but it's not clearly "symbol", is it? Also, I'm not sure what the source is, exactly, is it a dissertation per WP:SCHOLARSHIP? I'm guessing it's not by Ann Linder. Consider also articles like Breed-specific legislation and maybe Status dog. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:21, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Also from your source, "Breed-specific legislation may be being used as a new form of redlining to keep minorities out of majority-white neighborhoods." That's interesting. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:26, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Btw, I started the Symbol section and I didn't add anything by Ann Linder to it because I had no idea she existed. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:22, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

The source is the Animal Law Review, and it is from Ann Linder. Not sure why you would doubt it was? Animal Law Review is a scholarly journal that focuses on legal issues related to animals. Depends on how your definition of symbol. The second definition of symbol is "a thing that represents or stands for something else, especially a material object representing something abstract." I would definitely argue that there is sufficient evidence in history/media to show that pitbulls have been used as a symbol to represent the black communities pet ownership. Its not even really a debate as you can find many sources if you google "pit bulls black community".

As for your comment about the racism behind BSL laws, its something widely argued and currently litigated in George County as I write this. Unbiased6969 (talk) 16:52, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Ok, if it is Animal Law Review, does WP:RSSM apply here? Arguing "Strong cultural ties exist between..." = "Symbol" is far-fetched to me, the section as currently written is more literal, and I don't think it should stray from that. This bit however, seems more on-topic; "[Pit bulls] appeared in music videos and were featured as cultural symbols of “‘urban ghettos’ and ‘Afro-American lifestyles.’”31"

On the wider angle, you could try starting a "Presence in different communities" or something like that section. Perhaps even a separate article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:23, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

The History-section has "...the type becoming a status symbol in American gang culture." Trying to expand on that is an option. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:30, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Its a reliable source. They are the most respected publication in their field. You are comparing it to a student newspaper and not a scholarly journal, which it is more like. Check its wiki if you need more proof. Its a law journal.

They're a symbol of the black community. You seem to have a definition of symbol that is narrower than it actually is. The pit bull is an Isomorphic Symbol of black culture. Symbols don't need to be pictures.

The fact that the article has pit bulls as part of "American gang culture" is a not objective, and again appears to be written in a way to direct a reader to forming an opinion on pit bulls. Pit bulls are part of black culture and black culture is not gang culture... Gangs don't go around promoting pit bulls and selling them. Drugs/violence/guns are symbols of gang culture, not pit bulls. They are part of black culture, and in the past those were not differentiated. You don't hear about how gangs are pushing pit bulls onto people or killing people with pit bulls. You see rap videos with pit bulls in them, which society then associated rap videos to gangs because skin color.

I can see room for creating a new section, but I think fixing the current is better addressed before adding more. Unbiased6969 (talk) 22:15, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Also Lagunitas Brewing uses a pit bull as a logo for their company. However, logos are not symbols. And skinheads using a pit bull as a logo doesn't symbolize Pit bulls to white supremacy. The wiki article on symbols does a good job explaining what symbols are and what they do. There are also scholarly journals that address on the topic of symbolism. But basically, using an image as a logo doesn't make it a symbol. Millions of people have pit bulls tattooed on their skins and don't belong to supremacism groups because a pit bull is not a symbol of white supremacism. A specific image of a pit bull may be an identifying marker for a gang, but that doesn't make the pit bull a symbol. Unbiased6969 (talk) 22:31, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, WP says that. It may be correct. It doesn't seem awful, if someone objects when you use it in an article, you can discuss that then. I'm not clear on if Ann Linder is a student or not, "Legislative Policy Fellow" doesn't sound like a student to me, but here my ignorance kicks in. I disagree that logos are not symbols[6][7], it's a broad word, and logos fit quite reasonably in this section. ADL disagrees with you, pretty much:[8] If you have a decent secondary source for the brewery having a pit-bull logo you can add it. Existing is not enough.

I checked the cites at "American gang culture", and they support it (not the NYT), except the Humanity & Society doesn't actually say "American" (and UPI speaks of "ghetto youth", but the context is American), so there may be case for removing "American". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:24, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Her bio is publicly available here[9]

I disagree with symbols/icons bit, but I can get back to you on more about them. As for a source for Lagunitas, the founder of the company in his own words[10]. Petey was a American Pitbull Terrier as mentioned in the Wiki Page.

As for gang culture, another study[11] that argues that pit bulls are linked to hip-hop culture, which is not gang culture. I think its best to describe that pit bulls have been exploited by gangs to guard illegal narcotics, and to intimidate and attack civilians, other criminals and police" But then remove that they're part of gang culture. There is insufficient evidence for it. There is much more evidence to show that they're part of urban culture. In fact, even citation 16 mentions hip-hop culture.

Either way, I think there is sufficient evidence that Pit bulls are an isomorphic symbol for black pet ownership. The piece by Ann Linder provides a lot of evidence of such. If you don't agree its a symbol, then what about a new section to talk about pit bull ownership, or at the minimum mentioning it in BSL, which doesn't address anything about the link to racism and BSL? Just seems odd that a wiki page would link a dog to white supremacists ownership and not mention that they're perceived to be owned by minority communities too? Unbiased6969 (talk) 06:17, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Not a student then. I found the same article on the beer, added it yesterday, and rearranged the Symbol-section a bit, adding Linder. I'm not sure there's insufficient evidence on gang culture, but I haven't looked further than this article. Gang/Hip-hop is not a contradiction, it can be both.

"isomorphic symbol for black pet ownership" sounds WP:OR to me, and I think many readers would have to look up isomorphic. Pit bull ownership (or my above suggestion) could be a decent section, or "Pit bull ownership in the US" if that's what you end up writing. The article doesn't talk about white supremacists ownership. Since Linder writes about BSL, that would seem the default place to add something from her article. Consider adding something about pit bulls to Hip hop (culture). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:44, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Can it be both? Sure, but they're not mutually exclusive. If anything its blood sports that is tied to gangs. I mean, cock fighting is huge among gangs, but its not promoted in rap videos... its the rap videos, which is hip-hop culture that gives them the "gang image". Because lets face it, society did not differentiate much between them.

Rather than add another section, I think it can be addressed through the BSL section? Rather than talk about hip-hop culture, it can be acknowledge that they're associated with POC which may have lead to a number of BSL laws being passed. Then mention a court case that is currently being litigated along with Linder's work. Should the court case prevail, then there is sufficient evidence to change that BSL laws were determined to be passed in at least one case for discriminatory reasons? Unbiased6969 (talk) 06:38, 19 April 2023 (UTC)