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m Iskandar323 moved page Talk:Killing of Shani Louk to Talk:Kidnapping of Shani Louk over redirect: Revert undiscussed move (WP:RMUM): Restoring title arrived at via WP:RM, and not to be altered without a further RM
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:We don't know how or even if she was killed, so that claim just doesn't stand up. [[User:Iskandar323|Iskandar323]] ([[User talk:Iskandar323|talk]]) 09:51, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
:We don't know how or even if she was killed, so that claim just doesn't stand up. [[User:Iskandar323|Iskandar323]] ([[User talk:Iskandar323|talk]]) 09:51, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
::"or even if she was killed"
::the videos showing her disfigured body in the back of the truck says otherwise. the IDF found skull bone fracture. remember wikipedia is a place of neutrality. facts matter. and the facts here with all the videos posted by Hamas themselves, shows she was murdered. [[User:CharlesViBritannia|CViB]] ([[User talk:CharlesViBritannia|talk]]) 11:17, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Revision as of 11:17, 30 October 2023

A question of mine about Louk's age

Louk's age has been very inconsistent in the sources available to me. I've seen many articles refer to Louk as a 30 year old woman, while others claim that she was 22 (which is the figure that the wikipedia page is currently using). Is there any confirmation on her actual age?

Here are some sources that claim that she is 30:

1.https://kpic.com/news/local/shani-louk-allegedly-abducted-and-killed-during-hamas-terrorist-attack-attended-portland-jewish-academy

2.https://fox28savannah.com/news/nation-world/30-year-old-shani-louk-abducted-by-hamas-terrorists-gaza-israel-palestine-war-ricarda-zionist-fighting-middle-east-conflict

3.https://www.thejc.com/news/world/family-of-german-woman-whose-naked-body-was-paraded-around-by-hamas-plead-for-information-Rg1t4tb4IsCgIuaAVq1Kw

Here are the sources citing her age as 22:

1.https://news.yahoo.com/mom-festival-goer-shani-louk-134739882.html

2.https://www.thenationalnews.com/mena/2023/10/10/shani-louk-woman-abducted-and-feared-killed-by-hamas-is-alive-mother-says/

3.https://www.japantimes.co.jp/business/2023/10/11/tech/musk-x-misinformation-israel-hamas-war/ (Randomuser335S (talk) 15:10, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This video shows her (expired) passport, with 7 February 2001 as date of birth: https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1710820667686285406 --Angbor (talk) 15:49, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 12 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. see also: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shani Louk (closed by non-admin page mover) Elli (talk | contribs) 22:40, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Shani Louk → Kidnapping of Shani Louk – Per WP:BLP1E and WP:VICTIM, I don't think the victim should be the subject of the article. Additionally, it's consistent with other kidnappings and abductions in Category:Missing person cases in Israel and other crime-related cases where the victim is not notable prior to the crime. Phillycj 16:11, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. That would be consistent with other kidnappings and abductions. 2600:8800:2914:1600:F93E:B7FC:8D01:40F1 (talk) 10:44, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]


This needs no debate. The tragic subject of this article is not a notable person other than for what has recently befell her. If this article exists at all, it should be an article about the events. Either that, or folded into a larger article about the events of this current conflict

What's more this is a private person, who has been a victim of a horrific attack, and an article about them by name not only violates all wikipedia's policies on this matter (see WP:BIO1E), ethically, it is more than questionable. All following debate should be on whether this particular kidnapping requires a separate article, or whether it belongs as a part of an entry in an article on the kidnappings and killings. Whether this article, as it stands, under the current title, should remain, needs no debate.

I am sure the contributors of this article did so with the best of intentions, but it must be rectified at once.

With peaceful wishes to all, --Tomatoswoop (talk) 18:56, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed 2A02:A46D:7F34:1:6104:1D15:146F:8E80 (talk) 06:07, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed as there are many missing person articles, and I think this one is no different. The article should be focused on the abduction and crime, and the Article name changed, and not her biography, as she is not notable outside of this event. PatrickChiao (talk) 09:19, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the victim should be the subject of the article as there is a better category for this topic. As tragic as this event is for her family and friends, it should be in a different category. Jurisdicta (talk) 03:17, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Tomatoswoop I agree with you and think it should be moved, though I have seen in other contexts the name of the victim alone being the title of the article such as George Floyd. Is there a difference there, do you think, or just a lack of consensus? -- Lenny Marks (talk) 19:54, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I think this webpage is highly inappropriate and invading her privacy and right to self-determination

I believe this page should be taken down. If Shani is alive, she wasn't able to consent to this, so her potentially finding this in the future can be very damaging. It's highly invasive and inappropriate. Please consider taking this page down and leaving the information to come from official sources or her family. 2A01:598:89F9:DCA2:1:2:6241:F50B (talk) 16:40, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please cite some Wikipedia policy. RodRabelo7 (talk) 16:49, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Violation of privacy rights. Hence the page is now being redirected. 2A01:598:89F9:DCA2:1:2:6241:F50B (talk) 17:16, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
nothing to do with privacy rights per above user but I do not see it meeting notability guidelines per WP:NOTNEWS ToeSchmoker (talk) 20:08, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Other article

@Onetwothreeip: Hi. Just letting you know that the same content which you removed/edited here today is found in Re'im music festival massacre#Hamas' assault (4th paragraph).—Alalch E. 21:47, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I've updated that and directed content to this article. Onetwothreeip (talk) 21:54, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Naked" is currently unsourced and is also incorrect

@Beccaynr: It's also incorrect. What is correct is that she wore some clothes. This can be sourced. A past version of the description of the video discussed this, but Onetwothreeip removed the description of the video, for reasons that I do not understand. Please see this revision: special:permalink/1180003712. It contains the following

Louk was at the festival, accompanied by her boyfriend, a Mexican citizen.[1] After the Red Color rocket warning alarm was sounded,[2] and the attack began, Louk talked on the phone with her mother, saying that there are few places to hide and that she will try to find one.[3][4] After the massacre, Hamas paraded Louk, seemingly unconscious, in the back of a pickup truck.[5][6] A video, which became viral,[7][8] shows her clad only in her underwear, while the gunmen are chanting "Allahu Akbar", one draping his leg over her waist, another grabbing her hair, and a man in the crowd spitting on her.[9][10][11][2]

References

  1. ^ Vieira, Eli (9 October 2023). "Shani Louk, a alemã morta, despida e vilipendiada pelos terroristas palestinos" (in Portuguese). Gazeta do Povo. Archived from the original on 10 October 2023. Retrieved 11 October 2023.
  2. ^ a b Morris, Loveday; Piper, Imogen; Sohyun Lee, Joyce; George, Susannah (8 October 2023). "How a night of dancing and revelry in Israel turned into a massacre". The Washington Post. Archived from the original on 8 October 2023. Retrieved 8 October 2023.
  3. ^ Tanno, Sophie (8 October 2023). "Festivalgoers, children, soldiers: What we know about the people captured by Hamas". CNN. Retrieved 13 October 2023.
  4. ^ "Deutsche von Hamas verschleppt: Mutter von Shani Louk berichtet von letztem Gespräch mit Tochter – Blutbad bei Festival" [German kidnapped by Hamas: Shani Louk's mother reports on last conversation with daughter – bloodbath at the festival]. Rundschau Online (in German). 9 October 2023. Retrieved 13 October 2023.
  5. ^ Squires, Nick (11 October 2023). "German woman paraded by Hamas after festival massacre is 'still alive'". The Telegraph. ISSN 0307-1235. Archived from the original on 11 October 2023. Retrieved 12 October 2023.
  6. ^ Koronka, Poppy; Ledwith, Mario (11 October 2023). "Supernova festival hostage Shani Louk is alive but injured, says family". The Times & The Sunday Times. Archived from the original on 10 October 2023. Retrieved 11 October 2023.
  7. ^ Agarwal, Mehak (9 October 2023). "Israel-Hamas war: German woman Shani Louk paraded naked by Hamas fighters was robbed, credit card stolen, says report". Business Today. Archived from the original on 10 October 2023. Retrieved 10 October 2023.
  8. ^ Fischer, Jan-Frederik; Schiller, Eva (10 October 2023). "Israel: Shani Louk - Deutsche Geisel der Hamas lebt" [Israel: Shani Louk – German Hamas hostage alive]. ZDF (in German). Archived from the original on 10 October 2023. Retrieved 10 October 2023. Das Video der schwer verletzten Shani Louk erlangte im Internet große Bekanntheit. (transl. The video of seriously injured Shani Louk became widely known on the Internet.)
  9. ^ Sharon, Jeremy (8 October 2023). "Footage of Hamas assault on civilians shows likely war crimes, experts say". The Times of Israel. Archived from the original on 8 October 2023. Retrieved 8 October 2023.
  10. ^ Murphy, Paul P.; Goodwin, Allegra; Brown, Benjamin; Paget, Sharif (9 October 2023). "Desert horror: Music festival goers heard rockets, then Gaza militants fired on them and took hostages". CNN. Archived from the original on 8 October 2023. Retrieved 8 October 2023.
  11. ^ Kalisch, Muriel (8 October 2023). "Israel: Shani Louk, die Deutsche in der Gewalt der Hamas" [Israel: Shani Louk, the German in the hands of Hamas]. Der Spiegel (in German). Archived from the original on 8 October 2023. Retrieved 8 October 2023. Die Familie hat die junge Frau auf dem Video erkannt, ein Ex-Freund von Shani Louk hat es ihnen zugeschickt. ... Die 22-Jährige lebt allein in Tel Aviv... (transl. The family recognized the young woman in the video; an ex-boyfriend of Shani Louk sent it to them. ... The 22-year-old lives alone in Tel Aviv...)

Clad only in her underwear is correct. Squires says "half-naked" and and Sharon says "stripped down to her underwear". Please do something to make the content policy-compliant.—Alalch E. 19:20, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Half-naked is also correct because it's an objective description of the situation in the given moment.—Alalch E. 19:24, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I had quickly followed my initial edit with another edit to reflect references, so the article and lead currently says 'partially naked' and 'partly naked.' I am not opposed to more specific edits to reflect the sources, but it was the total removal of information about her appearance that seemed unsupported by the sources. Thank you for addressing this here, and I hope my follow-up edits at least somewhat help address the concern you have raised. Beccaynr (talk) 19:24, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot. —Alalch E. 19:25, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why would we speculate in the article about the subject's clothes? This is not relevant to a biographical article. Onetwothreeip (talk) 20:30, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Onetwothreeip, we are working to comply with WP:NPOV policy, e.g. representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic, so your recent removal [1] of the widely-sourced content from the article seems contrary to this core content policy. Beccaynr (talk) 20:47, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Then explain how it complies. All content on Wikipedia is meant to be neutral, it's meaningless to say that. Onetwothreeip (talk) 20:49, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are no opposing viewpoints in the sources regarding her clothing, it's just that the fewer number of sources who said "naked" as opposed to "half-naked" were being imprecise in their language. Later and more precise sources say "half-naked" or mention something like underwear, and there is a greater number of such sources. Later reporting, when the facts being reported have settled a bit (for example Louk isn't reported as being 30 years old anymore, and WSJ, a reliable source, said early on she's 30 years old, and so did many other sources), is usually more reliable than early reporting. —Alalch E. 21:05, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Example of an early source (Oct. 8) that we shouldn't use for claims that contradict a plurality of later reports:
  • Crisp, James (2023-10-08). "Murdered woman's naked body paraded around streets of Gaza". The Sunday Telegraph. p. 7. EBSCOhost 8Q3191154397 – via The Wikipedia Library. The naked body of an woman was paraded through the streets in the back of a pick-up truck yesterday as Hamas fighters sat on her corpse.
    A celebrating crowd surrounded the armed men in combat fatigues, who shouted "Allah Akbar" from the open back of the truck. The woman was later named as Shani Louk.
Such sources existing is perfectly normal and has nothing to do with neutrality. —Alalch E. 21:54, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that those details are not particularly relevant, Wikipedia avoids WP:SENSATIONAL reporting. This is an encyclopaedia, not a tabloid. It also contravenes WP:AVOIDVICTIM. Onetwothreeip (talk) 22:39, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The WP:WEIGHT section begins, Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources. Article sources include:
  • AFP (Oct. 10, 2023): "Even the most unbearable images have gone viral, including footage of a woman's partially naked body in the bed of a pick-up truck cheered by armed men. Her mother has identified her as Shani Louk ..."
  • Telegraph (Oct. 11, 2023): "A young German-Israeli woman who was spat on and paraded half-naked through the streets of the Gaza Strip after being abducted by Hamas terrorists is alive, her mother said"
  • Independent (Oct. 11, 2023): "Shani Louk, 22, was recognised by her distinctive tattoos and dreadlocks as the partially naked body inside a pick-up truck that was paraded through the streets by Palestinian gunmen."
  • Times of Israel (Oct. 9, 2023): "seemingly unconscious when they displayed her exposed body on the back of a pickup truck in Gaza, where onlookers spit on her."
  • Wall Street Journal (Oct. 10, 2023) "They paraded her naked body around in a pick-up truck" - per quote in article cite.
  • Shani Louk: New twist after festivalgoer paraded naked through Gaza streets (Yahoo News Australia, Oct. 10, 2023)
  • WaPo (Oct. 8, 2023) "In the video, the woman is facedown in the bed of the truck with four militants, apparently being paraded through Gaza."
  • The Journal.ie (Oct. 14, 2023): "appeared to show Shani being paraded on the back of a truck by Hamas militants"
  • Guardian (Oct. 13, 2023): "lifeless in the back of a truck, spat upon by Hamas fighters, legs unnaturally bent and her hair matted with blood."
  • Insider (Oct. 10, 2023): "A video of what appears to be Shani Louk's body being paraded through the streets of Gaza on the back of a pickup truck have circulated social media since Saturday"
  • Business Today (Oct. 9, 2023): "A video of a barely covered young woman with dreadlocks on the back of a pickup truck surrounded by Hamas soldiers went viral on social media"
Beccaynr (talk) 23:11, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
When reporters, commentators, and analysts writing for reputable publications, not tabloids, state certain facts, intentionally provide a certain level of detail, to enable the reader to understand what happened, that is not sensationalism. An encyclopedia can't shy away from difficult topics. This being quite difficult material to read has nothing to do with tabloid journalism. Removing such details which make it impossible to understand what it means to parade someone in the streets and make a propaganda video out of that, and simplifying this event to a generic kidnapping, would be WP:SYNTH through omission—combining certain sources and certain claims to one's liking while omitting the others. Our mission is to benefit readers by providing them with knowledge. WP:AVOIDVICTIM, when read correctly, does not mean "hide uncomfortable facts", it means avoiding off-topic, stupid, false, stuff that could cause distress.—Alalch E. 23:32, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the facts are what they are. Saying she was "naked" would be more than the reliable sources have stated and what is visable in the released video. Perhaps a better statement would be "partically clothed" which could be a more respectful way to describe her condition and adhears to WP:AVOIDVICTIM. Jurisdicta (talk) 03:20, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Several of those sources are tabloid, or worse than tabloid. Most of them don't use the term "naked". "Partially clothed" would be much more suitable. "Parade" is also an unsuitable term for an encyclopaedia, even if it's appropriate for news sources. While we can rely on news sources for the information, encyclopaedias maintain higher standards than news sources of language. I should also point out the blatant misuse of Wikipedia guideline, perhaps unintentional, when WP:Neutrality was quoted above, since this is not a matter of viewpoints, therefore does not apply to this. Onetwothreeip (talk) 20:45, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You've repeated some of the already contested changes. None of the sources are tabloid or worse than tabloid. "Half-naked" is suitable, and partially clothed is fine. "Parade" is absolutely suitable as that's exactly what happened, according to all of the sources, and that's exactly how we should convey this fact, instead of doing original research to simplify the events to a generic kidnapping, which you are doing. The standard of language in this article is fairly high, and it has nothing to do with saying that Louk was paraded in the streets of Gaza, as there is no nice way to put it. You invoked neutrality, but you seem unable to explain what the problem of neutrality is. Why did you, then, even mention neutrality as an issue? We significantly disagree and may need to involve more editors to help us with this dispute. Sincerely. —Alalch E. 21:59, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
None of the sources are tabloid?? Do you seriously want to explain how Yahoo News Australia is not tabloid? Business Insider and Business Today are equally low quality, and Barron's (credited above as AFP) is also not an appropriately thorough source for world events. Someone else invoked neutrality, not me. Onetwothreeip (talk) 22:13, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
None of those sources are tabloid and all are considered reliable. If they are hypothetically not the best possible sources (they're fine), they are still reliable sources, and they are not tabloid press. But they are used in conjunction with other sources, which are the best possible sources, which say all of the same things. See The Guardian for an example: An estimated 260 partygoers were murdered. Tens more could be among the 150 Israeli hostages believed to have been taken back to Gaza during the day. A video emerged of Shani Louk, 23, lifeless in the back of a truck, spat upon by Hamas fighters, legs unnaturally bent and her hair matted with blood. You invoked neutrality first in this thread, use Ctrl+F to find where. —Alalch E. 22:21, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, AFP is definitely one of the best possible sources. Excellent new agency for world events. Ultimately, none of these sources are used for the description of the video which you mainly contest. The sources are articles from the websites of CNN, The Telegraph, The Guardian, The Times of Israel, Der Spiegel, The Washington Post, and Die Zeit. —Alalch E. 22:37, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The AFP source is reprinted in other sources in addition to Barron's (which says at the top, "FROM AFP NEWS"), including Gulf News (AFP in the byline). At WP:RSP, Yahoo! News is a green-lit source; Insider is marked yellow, and I think the substantial recycling of content from Bild (marked red at WP:RSP) supports the removal of the specific source from the article. We can examine individual sources, but we have general guidance. I also think raising relevance generally is a NPOV issue, because we look to the available sources to determine what is relevant to include; AVOIDVICTIM also mentions "sourced, neutral, and on-topic" as part of the policy. Beccaynr (talk) 22:58, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Business Insider removed, thanks. It wasn't needed to support anything in the first place. —Alalch E. 23:09, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We should be relying on Agence France-Presse directly, not sources which claim to be using their content. I also see no such approval for Yahoo News Australia. Onetwothreeip (talk) 08:13, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've changed Barron's with ProQuest. Sources don't need preapproval. Yahoo News Australia falls under Yahoo News. —Alalch E. 21:37, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think including an accessible link would be helpful, especially because this article is at AfD and the widest opportunity possible to review the sources may be useful for participants in the discussion. Is there any indication that Barron's or Gulf News did not reproduce the AFP source accurately? If not, I think either cite can be used after verification, and the ProQuest template indicating the original source also included in the citation. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 21:50, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've compared the Barron's and ProQuest versions and the only difference I see is that on ProQuest, there are subsection titles that are not included in the Barron's version, but that does not seem to be a substantive difference. Gulf News includes the subsection titles. Beccaynr (talk) 21:58, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Barron's is a credible and mainstream weekly, and any idea that this media outlet might reproduce an AFP story substantially inaccurately is completely esoteric, but I did it just to indulge Onetwothreeip. Feel free to revert to Barron's (and Barron's is probably a lot better than Gulf News, so the options should in my opinion be ProQuest or Barron's). —Alalch E. 22:13, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes @Alalch E.: this is 100% correct—why the urge to euphemize and omit the details of terror attacks? I would suggest that "stripped down to her underwear" is the clearest phrasing, as it makes clear that she was not voluntarily undressed.
I'm heartbroken to witness fellow Wikipedians attempting to downplay or whitewash the atrocities committed by Hamas and other Palestinians, including such digusting claims as Louk "was not undressed, she was wearing shorts and a bra. A look through her social media account shows that she has posts of herself in that very same outfit and other similar loose-fitting, revealing outfits." ElleTheBelle 15:05, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Die Zeit feature

—Alalch E. 21:20, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Faz commentary

Murder of Shani Louk

This article have to be named Murder of Shani Louk not Killing of Shani Louk. She was murdered, not killed by accident. דוד שי (talk) 09:38, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We don't know how or even if she was killed, so that claim just doesn't stand up. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:51, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"or even if she was killed"
the videos showing her disfigured body in the back of the truck says otherwise. the IDF found skull bone fracture. remember wikipedia is a place of neutrality. facts matter. and the facts here with all the videos posted by Hamas themselves, shows she was murdered. CViB (talk) 11:17, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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