Talk:Flour massacre

Requested move 29 February 2024

Al-Rashid humanitarian aid incident → Al-Rashid massacre – If it really did happen then its not an "incident", its a massacre of civillians that relied on humanitarian aid. Not calling an attack on civillians that killed 112 people a massacre is supporting Israeli propaganda. Lukt64 (talk) 23:28, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support. The current title completely obscures the true nature of the event. Salmoonlight (talk) 23:32, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. I agree "incident" is too vague, but a more neutral title would be something along the lines of "Al-Rashid Aid Riot" imho.Tdmurlock (talk) 23:50, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

  "Riot" puts the responsibility for the killings on the Palestinians themselves, as opposed to the IDF, who appear to be the perpetrators. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 23:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

  Agreed. Salmoonlight (talk) 23:54, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

  I contend that "riot" doesn't really attribute responsibility one way or the other. Plenty of events that we refer to as "riots" (for example, the Rodney King Riots) are characterized by violent crackdowns against the rioters. Tdmurlock (talk) 00:02, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Israeli propaganda is a stretch, but I agree it should be renamed, because a significant amount of people were killed Guadeterre (talk) 23:32, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

well the IDF is already spreading propaganda about "what actually happened" so calling out Israeli propaganda for what it is isn't unfair IMO. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 23:46, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I mainly said that because we still dont know exactly who did it. I'm not trying to start drama or be political. The main point of my reply was supporting the article name change Guadeterre (talk) 23:49, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

We absolutely know who did it-- it was the IDF, who have a long track record of this sort of behaviour in this particular "war" alone. Let's not take the CNN route, act all coy, and pretend that it's still up for debate as to who started shooting these people. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 23:54, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I'll look into the situation more, just trying not to form an opinion yet. In the meantime I really dont want to make any drama or get into a fight Guadeterre (talk) 23:57, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

That's fair. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 00:01, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

especially when we consider that every time a paramilitary "settler" gets killed in the occupied West Bank, they get their own article unambigiously titled as "murder of" said "settler". It's really not up for debate that this was a massacre, not an "incident". 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 23:45, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support With IDF statements acknowledging shooting at least 10 people on the scene, and multiple reports of dozens of gunshot wounds (with no other shooters alleged), I think we're in massacre territory even if the others killed turned out to have died in panic, from fearful truck drivers etc. Carwil (talk) 23:50, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

  I think it's also important to note that even if a substantial number of the people who were killed were killed because the drivers panicked or in a crowd crush, the catalyst is still the IDF opening fire into the crowd. We also have to assume that the IDF is downplaying how many people they shot as well. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 23:56, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

  You are getting to the point of WP:Bludgeoning Lukt64 (talk) 23:57, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

  I just thought that it's important to mention in terms of overall culpability. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 00:01, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

  Thing is, you are replying to every single statement on this post. Lukt64 (talk) 00:02, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

  Aren't users with <500 edits disallowed to comment on talk pages in this fashion? The user you're replying to has like, ten edits in total. Tdmurlock (talk) 00:05, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

  Nope, we're just not allowed to physically edit pages related to this issue. As in contribute. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 00:12, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

  I thought they weren't but I may be wrong. The Kip 07:30, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

  who cares? 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 00:10, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support. A lot of other articles of this war have been correctly named massacres despite having a lot less deaths, so I see now reason why an event with such a high casualty number shouldn't rightfully be renamed to a massacre too, especially since a lot of the international media have reported that Israeli soldiers deliberately committed this action. Nori2001 (talk) 23:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

  agreed. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 23:56, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support per Carwil. CJ-Moki (talk) 00:08, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support, as per Carwil, Nori2001, and Salmoonlight. RodRabelo7 (talk) 00:14, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

   Comment: changed en-dash to hyphen. RodRabelo7 (talk) 00:17, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support, per Carwil + WP:SNOW, come on, let's close it and move the page. — Mainly 00:26, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support Al-Rashid humanitarian aid massacre, as I believe that it is important to mention where it happened in the title.

MountainDew20 (talk) 00:33, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support. As sources refer to it as a massacre, or they quote that people are calling it a massacre. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 00:37, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support: Proposed title is more accurate than the almost painfully euphemistic "humanitarian aid incident".

  CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 04:42, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support - and I am hoping that the current title was only used as there was not enough information in reputable media at the time. The IDF opened fire on the crowd, resulting in “less than ten casualties” according to the IDF, who are known liars, with the rest attributed to the resulting stampede and people killed by fleeing vehicles. If you fire a weapon into a crowd, killing civilians, and then more civilians are killed as a direct result of this action, then you are responsible for their deaths. This was a massacre. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 04:52, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support, and frankly WP:SNOW. There's no justifiable reason to call it an "incident", it's cloaking the reality of it in euphemism --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 05:37, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

  Additional Comment: the page with the current title was started by a user (@OliveTree39:) that does not meet the extended confirmed user protection level the page was later given due to the Israel-Palestine conflict contentious topic designation, whereas the first move was made by a user that does --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 06:14, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Strong Oppose and I never use adjectives in my !votes but absolutely no one has cited anything that shows this is commonly called a massacre. I searched up the incident and found these results: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]. 2 of those sources don't even say "massacre" once, the other three only attribute it to Hamas, Fatah, and Qatar. Meanwhile, the term incident is used in all sources multiple times, unattributed. No one bothered to look at and use the sources on this. Absolutely no arguments on policy whatsoever. Wikipedia is supposed to function on policy, not on opinions devoid of policy. JM (talk) 06:16, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose Reliable sources state that it is unsure what led to the casualties. The Economist, for example, says that "As with many events in the war between Israel and Hamas, the facts are destined to remain fiercely contested." By using the word massacre, Wikipedia adopts Hamas' version. Eladkarmel (talk) 06:21, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

As I've already shown above, the IDF have admitted that their firing into the crowd caused deaths. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 06:28, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Based on the sources I read, The IDF clearly said that the shooting that was carried out was a "warning shot" and was not aimed at the civilians who threatened the forces. Even if we assume that there were casualties from the shooting, it is a small minority of the civilians killed, and certainly it was not a massacre.Eladkarmel (talk) 06:44, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Even if we assume that there were casualties from the shooting, it is a small minority of the civilians killed

Who/what killed the rest of the civilians? Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 06:51, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

According to the IDFs initial investigation, a stampede.Eladkarmel (talk) 07:29, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm all for going with what the RSes say rather than jumping to our own conclusions, but I can't in good faith say that the IDF is a remotely reliable source here. The Kip 07:33, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm in favor of waiting a few more days and getting more data. In order for it not to outcome like the accusations against the IDF for the attack on Al Ahali hospital, It turned out that according to all the evidence, it was not an IDF attack, Despite the accusations from Hamas.Eladkarmel (talk) 07:40, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Support. By all reasonable definitions, this was a massacre. If we can classify it as a massacre in the info box, we should be doing so in the title. Using a neutral tone when one shouldn’t be used makes the site more misleading. Describing this event as an “incident” would be like using the term “incident” instead of “attack” for the January 6 page. EvanSheppard (talk) 07:29, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

According to the rules, you are not allowed to comment here. Hazooyi (talk) 07:50, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

:Strongly Support - From what we have seen, they were shot at for trying to get food. The accused have not provided proof of the civillans being a "threat" to them 94.204.139.36 (talk) 06:29, 1 March 2024 (UTC) Vote struck per CTOP/ECP restrictions listed above. The Kip 07:16, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose both proposed and current titles:

• On one hand, "massacre" isn't being extensively utilized by RSes, as detailed above. We don't want to engage in OR here; if conclusive/widely-endorsed evidence emerges that the IDF indiscriminately fired into the crowd emerges and is taken up by RSes, I'll support the title, but RSes seem to be taking a cautious tone regarding circumstances at the moment (perhaps to avoid the issues surrounding the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion's initial reporting).
• On the other, I sympathize with commenters that feel "incident" is far too euphemistic for an event in which over 100 people died violently, which definitively happened regardless of whether it was Israeli soldiers, a stampede, or panicked truck drivers.

The question is what do we switch to? "Disaster," perhaps? The Kip 07:16, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Comment: I'd urge editors to think deeply about the ways language has been used during this particular conflict. Analyses by openDemocracy and The Intercept have suggested that the word "massacre" is almost never used to describe mass casualty events of Palestinians by organizations like NYT, WaPo, BBC, and LA Times [6] [7]. WP:5P5 says sometimes improving Wikipedia requires making exceptions, and it just seems to me that the shooting and death of starving people seeking food does warrant stronger language than "incident", even if that's what the above-mentioned organizations are calling it. CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 07:46, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose jumping to conclusions about the exact nature of this incident, hours after it happened, before any inquiry was done, and giving it the title "massacre" is clearly not done out of search for truth. Oyoyoy (talk) 07:24, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose Wikipedia is "not news" and this claim about a massacre is pure speculation at this point. I would say calling it "stampede" makes more sense. Hazooyi (talk) 07:38, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Comment

This discussion of an article page move can easily be contested. Discussions typically last a week and this one didn't even last 2 hours! And the nominator closed the discussion with their preferred article title which is a clear conflict of interest, that act should have been left to an uninvolved editor or admin. I don't think this discussion and closure can be argued to be authoritative and will likely be challenged. Please do things properly in the future, Lukt64, and don't try to rush these processes. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:09, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

The most basic conditions of the claimed WP:SNOW were not met here. · ^מקף Hyphen _෴ · 02:13, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Obvious misapplication of WP:SNOW, here. Tdmurlock (talk) 03:42, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

 Note: I have reverted Lukt64's early closure which is made improperly as the nominator. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 04:38, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Fails even the first snowball test. Someone opposed, that's the opposite of unanimous. And WP:SNOW also warns of early pile-ons. Yet the nominator himself closed it less than 2 hours after he opened it. Good revert. JM (talk) 06:42, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Aerial surveillance media

· ^מקף Hyphen _෴ · 02:15, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi, can I see the primary source where this aerial surveillance came from? Wanted to see whether or not I could have used this as proper citation for something. 35.149.30.125 (talk) 06:26, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

It's almost like people who're being deliberately starved will be more frantic when it comes to trying to obtain what material aid they can. These drone videos don't absolve the IDF of anything. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 02:58, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Why are you editing here? You shouldn't be.

Hazooyi (talk) 07:48, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Massacre

"Humanitarian aid incident" is ridiculous. Call it a massacre. JDiala (talk) 07:53, 1 March 2024 (UTC)