Talk:Easter

For most recent comments, see bottom of page

Parts of the UK?

"Canada and the United States and parts of UK". I would say that the UK is more secular than the US - which parts of the UK don't have a secular easter? Northern Ireland and some bits of Scotland? I'm going to change this to the UK unless anyone disagrees. Secretlondon 05:09, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion agreed with wholeheartedly here. Tomjol 23:16, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Netherlands section

Hey there, can't edit the page myself. Can someone please change the Netherlands section to include Northern Germany where Easter fires are also quite common. thanks :) Marco (Northern Germany) Bonteburg 20:26, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Not in ########## of John

For most recent comments, see bottom of page

Parts of the UK?

"Canada and the United States and parts of UK". I would say that the UK is more secular than the US - which parts of the UK don't have a secular easter? Northern Ireland and some bits of Scotland? I'm going to change this to the UK unless anyone disagrees. Secretlondon 05:09, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion agreed with wholeheartedly here. Tomjol 23:16, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Netherlands section

Hey there, can't edit the page myself. Can someone please change the Netherlands section to include Northern Germany where Easter fires are also quite common. thanks :) Marco (Northern Germany) Bonteburg 20:26, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Not in ########## of John

Under "Etymology", the meaning of the word "Passover" in John 28:8 is mentioned. If this is referring to ########## of John, there is no John 28:8; ########## of John is only 21 chapters long. I can't edit this; perhaps someone can. However, I haven't found an alternative verse to cite. John 19:8 and 20:8 don't have the word "Passover" in the New International Version. There is a Matthew 28:8, but no reference to the word "Passover" there either (using the same version). Perhaps someone can find the right Gospel of John reference. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by John ISEM (talk • contribs) 14:54, 3 April 2007 (UTC).

I provide more appropriate citations. — Joe Kress 20:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Etymology: Interpretations of chronologies in the gospels

There are varying interoperations of when the gospels state that the Last Supper took place. There is wide-spread agreement that the Synoptic Gospels say is was the Passover meal, so that is easy. The more difficult issue with the Gospel of John. One main interpretation is that says the same thing as the other gospels; another main interpretation is that says the Last Supper was earlier. A good, reliable source that I found that provides insight into the breadth of each opinion is the NIV Study Bible. The authors sift through the various theological writings and digest scholars opinions and includes a sense of how popular a given interpretation is. Using a source like this is a big step up from past versions of this article that didn’t provide any source regarding the popularity of an article. Still, if someone can find an even better sources to help with providing an unbiased overview, there is room for further improvement. --Ed Brey 11:23, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I didn't mention John 19:14 regarding the interpretation that John differs because it's not clear as to the rationale for the interpretation. Does anyone have a source for that? --Ed Brey 11:23, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The "last supper" was not the Passover Seder meal as mentioned in this entry. Why? This is determined quite simply by common sense as applied to the manner in which God commaded that Passover was to be kept. (Read Exodus chapter 12) Jesus was OUR Passover lamb. His shed blood redeemed us from our sinful state of bondage in the same manner that the original Passover lamb redeemed the Israelites from bondage in Egypt. He was sacrified on preparation day (Nisan 14), at the same time the High Priest was sacrificing the lambs, as our full and final sacrifice. At sundown, which began Nissan 15, the Passover meal was to be eaten. Now read very carefully, the Lamb is eaten AT the Passover meal, it is the main course. You cannot have the Passover Seder while the lamb is still alive. So again, since Jesus is our Passover Lamb he was dead and buried by the time the nation of Israel, including the disciples, was sitting down to the Passover meal. The last supper was simply that, the last meal he sat down to partake with his disciples. Without doubt, he included elements of the Seder meal which pointed to his fulfillment of the Passover sacrifice. But it was not the seder which he ate on the evening of Nisan 13. This would have been contrary to God's commands. Disobeying God is sin. Jesus was without sin. So he would not have broken his Father's command regarding the keeping of the annual Passover feast. I have had fellow religious scholars debate me and try to prove that it was the Passover feast and Jesus was alive for it. BUT, if you can prove that Jesus was alive on Nisan 15 and ate the Passover meal then you also prove that He IS NOT our Passover Lamb. And as such, his death means nothing. Why? Because God's law regarding the sacrificial system is very specific. No where in scripture does it allow for an offering to be sacrificed on Passover day itself. A sacrifice so offered would be an abomination to God and his law. So let's review the facts. The "last supper" was just a last meal with the 12 before his crucifixion. This meal took place late Nisan 13/early Nisan 14. He was crucified on Nisan 14 and died around 3pm. He was quickly buried before sunset, at which time Nisan 15 began and commenced the High Sabbath of Passover. <tww, apr-04-2007>

A masterpiece of a priori logic. I look forward to your defense of the ptolemaic universe. Doops | talk 04:13, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

tww, are you saying that the Last Supper was a Passover meal, but not the Passover Seder? Or perhaps some other meal? The biblical sources refer to "eating the passover". In light of the principle you brought up that Jesus is the passover sacrifice, what are you saying that Matthew 26:17, Mark 14:12, etc. are referring to? Can you point to any reliable sources that expound upon the interpretation? --Ed Brey 11:20, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I can, but not according to tww's reasoning. More to the point, the required elements of a seder seem to be missing even from the synoptic accounts. In the original language, they are clearly using leavened bread. (The bread is called "artos" in Greek. Unleavened bread is everywhere else called "azymos".) At least Eastern Orthodoxy (if not other traditions) uses the chronology in John as normative. See the answer to Question 1 here. TCC (talk) (contribs) 17:46, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

There are two mentions (the redundency is a problem in itself) in the article that the Last Supper was a Passover Seder, neither of which cites specific sources, nor does the Last Supper article cite specific sources (only general references). The NIV Study Bible source cited in the Etymology section refers to the Last Supper as "a Passover meal", without calling out one way or the other whether it was a Seder. Given your exegesis and the lack of specific sources indicating it is a "Seder", I would lean toward more sure text, such as replacing "a Passover Seder" with "a Passover meal". --Ed Brey 11:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

TCC, you are absolutely correct in your observation on the bread. I too, have used this point as well to prove that the "last supper" was not the Passover meal. To cite an additional point, the narrative in John 13:29 indicates that the other disciples thought that Judas was perhaps leaving to buy things for the Passover meal/feast, or to give to the poor. IF, they had just finished the Passover meal with Jesus, and it was now early on Nisan 15, they NEVER would have consider that Judas left for those reasons. Why? First, the meal would already be over. Second, Passover is a High Holy Sabbath, so no buying or selling takes place. I'll try to add some clarity to my previous entry on the date of the crucifixion... I entered that late at night after a long day of Passover preparations. I will simply say this... Many have "proven" to me that the last supper was the Passover Meal that Jesus ate with the disciples on Nisan 15. If this IS the case, then following the chronological order of events recorded in the Gospels, Jesus would have been crucified the following afternoon which would still be PASSOVER. But, the Gospels also clearly recount that Jesus was crucified on PREPARATION day, Nisan 14 (John 19:31). Therefore, the last supper occured late Nisan13/early Nisan14. [Note: For those not familiar with Biblical timing, God's day has always been measured from sunset to sunset. NOT a 24hr period beginning at midnight] The argument for the last supper being Passover DOES NOT fit the chronological test. In addition, God's law regarding the sacrifical system is very precise. (See the enire book of Leviticus) The Passover Lamb MUST be chosen on Nisan 10, observed for four days, and sacrificed on Nisan 14. (Exodus 12)In order for Jesus to be an acceptable sacrifice as our Passover Lamb, he MUST meet these same criteria. Therefore, if the last supper was the Passover Meal eaten on Nisan 15 with Jesus in attendance, then He obviously WAS NOT crucified on Nisan 14. Again, this possible scenario is disproved by Scripture. So my answer to my unlearned religous colleagues has been this... IF you manipulate facts and prove to me that Jesus was alive and ate the Passover Meal on Nisan 15, then you also prove to yourself that He IS NOT the Messiah. I personally believe He is our Messiah and Savior. He did fit the model and criteria of the Passover Lamb. And He was crucified on Nisan 14, the day of preparation for Passover. The facts (Scriptural, historical, and cultural) support this viewpoint. Too Doops, this is not a stretch of deduction or a hypothetical scenario. Stick to commenting on topics you know somehting about. <tww apr-07-2007 15:30US-EDT>

Ed, please clarify your definitions of Passover Meal and Passover Seder. I assume from context you are understanding a Seder to be a symbolic observance of the Passover Meal, but not the actual meal itself. For instance, we have held symbolic/teaching Seders that explore the ways in which Christ fulfills the prophetic pictures given us in the Passover Feast. We use all the required elements and go through the complete Haggadah. These typically occur AROUND Nisan 15, but not on Nisan 15. On that night, we are home with our families actually celebrating the Passover Feast. I will point out, however, that we use the SAME ELEMENTS. To this point, I find it hard to believe that Jesus would have used LEAVENED bread as part of a symbolic Passover Seder on Nisan 13 to represent His sinless body. So again, I must stand by the facts which support my position. The last supper was simply that, the last meal he had with the disciples. Moreover, it was the meeting where he finally let them know WHY they have been keeping the Passover Feast (now only a day away) for generations and what it truly means to them. <tww apr-02-2007 15:33US-EDT> —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.63.102.120 (talk) 19:58, 7 April 2007 (UTC).

My understanding is that a “Passover Seder” specifically recalls the miracle in Exodus and thereby necessitates eating unleavened bread, whereas a “Passover meal” is a more ambiguous term (which seems appropriate given the uncertainty) that can be any meal that was eaten during the 7 day festival that occurred around that time. “Passover meal” leaves open the possibility that the meal was a Passover Seder, as some have suggested, e.g. from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, “theory that when the Passover fell on Friday night, the Pharisees ate the meal on Thursday and the Sadducees on Friday, and that Jesus followed the custom of the Pharisees (Chwolson, Das letzte Passahmal Jesu, 2nd edition, Petersburg, 1904)”. --Ed Brey 11:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Format

I had to remove the "double curvy bracket" christianity}} tag because it messed up the formatting of the page - made everything centered and other things. I do not know how to edit such a thing. Ellimist 00:25, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I put the template back because I really don't see anything wrong with it. Could you be specific? Carlo 02:30, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

It had been vandalized a short time ago. No doubt Ellimist was seeing either the vandalized version or a cached copy of it. TCC (talk) (contribs) 17:49, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it is fine now. I had looked back in the history, but the same error kept popping up. Oh well. Whatever it was is fixed now. Thanks. Ellimist 19:15, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Pascha

Since Pascha redirects here, I am adding it to the beginning of the article. Majoreditor 03:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

THis is debatable, it is just as probable that the latin root for Easter derives from "Passio", latin for suffering. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.5.234.30 (talk) 20:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

When does Lent end?

The Easter Triduum article declares that Lent ends on Holy Thursday, but the Lent article states that it ends either at the dusk of Holy Saturday (Easter Vigil) or the morning of Easter Sunday. These seem to conflict, so which one is right??74.62.177.140 20:05, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Lent ends on Holy Saturday in the Western churches. It may end earlier in Eastern Orthodox churches; I'm not sure. (I know it starts earlier there). —Angr 11:16, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Easter and Hitler

Every 14 years, the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the birth of Hitler occurs on the same day. Next Occurrence will be on April 20th 2014 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Funkadelic1 (talk • contribs) 14:57, 6 April 2007 (UTC).

Unlike Jesus, Hitler will not come again . . . in 2014 or at any other time.

Easter in Bulgarian

Regarding the name : the article mentions bulgarian easter translation but it is wrong. In Bulgarian easter is Velikden (or "Великден"), which is selebrated on Sunday and the night before is called Bydni Vecher("Бъдни Вечер")which is the expectation of Easter. Also, in those countries the official days off are Friday through Monday, not as in catholic world, where it starts with good friday and end on sunday. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.80.41.47 (talk) 12:28, 7 April 2007 (UTC).

Cults?

I don't think that calling certain groups "cults" is an NPOV sort of thing. 141.152.79.93 15:25, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I have removed it. --BigDT 00:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Easter Fires

Easter Fires (Påskbrasor) is tradition in Scandinavia (Sweden specifically) and this is not reflected in the text.

Not just Scandinavia, but much of Northen Europe, including Germany and Britain. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.230.73.2 (talk) 12:13, 8 April 2007 (UTC).

Is it correct that Scandinavia calls theirs Bale or Balder Fires? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.122.36.252 (talk) 09:42, 14 April 2007 (UTC).

s-protection

Is there any reason for the pre-emptive protection of this article? There's a definite reason to leave it not protected - we want someone googling Easter to be able to edit it and potentially become a user. If every high profile page is s-protected preemptively, then potential new users get the idea that they can't "edit this page right now". --BigDT 00:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree with protection. The high volume of vandalism is not worth the slight possibility that someone might add something useful during the next day or two. Academic Challenger 01:01, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I removed the protection. As a general rule, pages linked from the main page should not be protected unless the vandalism gets so bad we can't keep on top of it (i.e. reverting vandalism actually results in edit conflicts with the vandals). —Angr 11:04, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Three Days?

This might sound like a stupid question, but I'm unsure of something. the article states:

"Easter, the Sunday of the Resurrection...It celebrates the resurrection of Jesus, 
which his followers believe occurred on the third day after his death 
by crucifixion...Good Friday."

If he was killed on Friday, and he was resurrected three days later, wouldn't that be Monday? Friday to Saturday is one day, Saturday to Sunday is two days, and Sunday to Monday is three days. The text says 'the third day after his death', so Saturday is the first day after, Sunday is the second day after, and so Monday is the third day after. Is there an error in the article, or can I not count? 須藤 04:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on the topic, but I think that Friday is counted as the first day, Saturday is the second day and Easter is the third day. Anyway, the idea of Jesus rising on the third day is in the bible. I'm sure there have been lots of debates on this. Another thing to remember is that at that time, days were considered to have begun at sunset. That's all I know about it, I've wondered about that also. Academic Challenger 05:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

It's the third day if we count inclusively, which is how the ancients tended to count (the day, the second day, the third day, etc.). Of course, the problem is the word "after" since to our modern ears it implies exclusive counting (the day, the first day after, the second day after, etc.). We can't change "third" to "second" — "the third" is too traditional — but maybe there's a way to cut the word "after." Doops | talk 05:07, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Eh, I couldn't figure out how to remove the word "after"; so I just put in a parenthetical note. Doops | talk 05:15, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, many conservative Protestants believe that Good Friday is wrong and that Christ was crucified on Thursday. He was crucified on the "preparation day" before a Sabbath, but, the first day of Passover was a Sabbath, over and above the Saturday Sabbath (Exodus 12:16). John 19:14 says in no uncertain terms, "And it was the preparation of the passover". So the day Jesus was crucified was the day before Passover, not necessarily on a Friday. So if we're going to get 3 days + 3 nights, that makes it a Thursday. --BigDT 12:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, most all of the above is not supported by my research, except for the statement that God's day does run from sunset to sunset. In order to fulfill the OT prophecy of Jonah, Christ had to be dead and buried in the grave for 3 nights and 3 days. These are literal days. The reasoning supplied by Doops is not scripturaly or culturally correct but one most often espoused by the Seventh Day Adventist movement for counting three days from Friday to Sunday. It doesn't work. Not culturally. Not scripturally. The problem is this, in our perverted western religious system, we have been taught nothing of the OT and Hebrew culture and customs. When we see 'Sabbath' most all of us think of the only Sabbath we are familiar with... the weekly seventh-day Sabbath of the Ten Commandments. This was my narrow-minded level of understanding for almost 30 years of study and research. The fact is that God ordained His High Holy days throughout the year... these days are Sabbath days as well... and Passover is one of these Sabbath days. John 19:31 clearly indicates that the 'preparation day' on which Christ was crucified was the preparation day for the High Sabbath of Pesach (Passover). According to ancient lunar calendars, the month of the Abib barley would have begun on a Wednesday night in the year 28CE, this would be Nisan 1. Fourteen days later on Wednesday Nisan 14, the nation of Israel was preparing for the High Sabbath of Passover. It was on this preparation day, that Jesus was crucified and died at appox 3pm in the afternoon. His body was quickly prepared and buried prior to sunset which marked the beginning of the Passover on Nisan 15. He layed in the grave from sunset Wednesday to sunset Thursday. DAY ONE. Sunset Thursday to sunset Friday. DAY TWO. and Sunset Friday to sunset Saturday. DAY THREE. The scriptural, historical, astronomical and cultural evidence supports this chronology for the prophetic three nights and three days in the grave. At the end of the weekly Sabbath (on Saturday) He was resurrected to life again. John 20:1 tells us that Mary came early on the first day of the week while it was still dark. In historically and culturally correct terms, "early on the first day of the week while it was still dark" is equivalent to our Saturday evening/night. By the time the sun rises on Sunday morning, the first day of the week is half-over. We need to think outside the teachings that are being continually regurgitated at our theological seminaries. We are no longer taught to think, search, and reason for ourselves... but to only do so within the confines of the "box" in which a particular denomination or religious movement places us. Jesus told us to keep asking, keep seeking, and keep knocking. Proverbs and Ecclesiates tell us to seek wisdom above all else. If we stop seeking God for ourselves and simply accept the spoon-feeding from religious leaders, we set ourselves up for the false teachings of false prophets to come in the latter days. —The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages <tww, Apr-08-2007>|unsigned]] comment was added by 71.63.102.120 (talk) 18:58, 8 April 2007 (UTC).

The issue of what actually did or did not happen two milennia ago is not what my response was concerned with; I was simply explaining how it is that the crucifixion is by tradition commemorated on a Friday, Easter on a Sunday, and yet "on the third day" is always the wording. Doops | talk 19:23, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Doops, Your point is now made and understood with more clarity. But unfortunately, it is still grossly incorrect and unsupported by fact. The statement that Christ arose on the "third day" is a truncation of the actual prophetic message. It is also very dangerous and misleading to use this terminology out of context because it begs the question... "what third day?" Ridiculous arguments can be made to support any "third day" scenario. Scripture is the final authority and very specific. Jesus did not say that He would simply be raised on the "third day" and leave it at that. He very specifically said the only sign given would be that of Jonah... THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS. (see Jonah 1:17 and Matthew 12:40) You cannot get three days and three nights with a Friday crucifixion and a Sunday morning resurrection. It doesn't work. I supported my position by Scriptural, cultural, historical, agricultural evidences. I see you are a young Harvard grad and probably not without intellectual merit. I applaude your effort to give time and concern to the value Wikipidea brings to the web. But I will say to you again, stick to commenting on Wikipedia topics about which you possess Godly, scholarly knowledge. In matters where you are lacking, read, study, and research to gain years of knowledge and wisdom; then enter into the fray. This venue needs to present valid, well thought-out topics of discussion and dissention for people to contemplate in light of their own spritual and intellectual growth. <tww, 08-Apr-2007> —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.63.102.120 (talk) 20:22, 8 April 2007 (UTC).

This is all quite interesting, but it's utterly irrelevant to this article, since Wikipedia does not allow original research. The fact, quite apart from anyone's interpretation of anything, is that the vast majority of Christians commemorate the Crucifixion on a Friday and the Resurrection on a Sunday. That's all that matters to this article. —Angr 21:13, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

It also seems to me that Christians have been commemorating the crucifixion on Friday for as long as Christianity has existed, and no one ever suggested that it was the wrong day until some fundamentalists sometime around 1975. So why would anyone take it seriously?

"The Day of Preparation and the next day was to be a special Sabbath" seems pretty clear to most people who don't have some weird anti-Catholic axe to grind. Carlo 21:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

It's quite simple really: this is an encyclopedia. We describe things. Spiritual and intellectual growth aren't in the job description. Doops | talk 22:27, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

All the Gospels state that Jesus was crucified and entombed on the day of preparation for the sabbath (Matthew 27:62, Mark 15:42, Luke 24:54, John 19:42). "Sabbath" is traditionally regarded as the seventh day of the week (sunset Friday to sunset Saturday), not necessarily the first day of Passover. According to this view, Jesus was crucified during daylight hours on Friday. A synopsis of all these events, emphasizing the disagreement between the Synoptic Gospels and John, is The Death of Jesus in Mark vs. John. The author, Felix Just, a Jesuit, notes that the phrase "day of preparation" is ambiguous in John, but that this was the weekly sabbath in the Synoptic Gospels. The alternative view that sabbath meant an annual sabbath is argued in 'Preparation Day' of Passover: Friday or 14th of Abib. A more involved discussion from a published book, The Preparation for the Sabbath, including consideration of Wednesday and Thursday crucifixions and the "third day", concludes "The easiest reading of Scripture places the day of preparation and the crucifixion on Friday before a Saturday Sabbath Passover." A view from the early Church is needed. — Joe Kress 21:16, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, as an Atheist, I don't care about all this theology. I just, for the sake of Wikipedia, want the article, as I'd want with any, to be clear, logical, and make sense. If there needs to be a new section added about a possible contreversy, OK. If the article needs to say 'it is unsure what this means' or 'there are differing views as to the meaning or validity of this...which is discussd elsewhere' that's fine. We just need to be factual, logical, and clear. 須藤 21:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Dear People. Let me shed some light on this topic. Before I start, I'd like to say that all of my information I have gotten from books, not web, so I'm not sure how to cite them. Easter was never associated with the scriptural death and ressurection of the Son. It was a pagan festival, celtic in origin, which celebrated the goddess Ishtar/eostre/fria/frigga/eshtar/aphrodite/venus/etc. depending on the specific paganism. It celebrated her fertility, and the fertility of the world in spring. She was pictured as a rabbit (symbolic of sex) who fell from the sky in an egg (symbolic of fertility). The rabbit then laid eggs, which the children were sent to find. Now the tradition of this festival was to sacrifice infants and die the eggs in their blood. The eggs were then scattered about the fields as a protection from famine and pestilence. This is the origin of the dying of eggs, and to this day the whitehouse spreads blood red eggs all over the lawn. I hope this helps to clarify some of the issues your having. You see the Egg-containing-a-rabbit fell on a "fria-day" and the egg was said to have "hatched" on "the day of the sun". The actual passover sacrifice would have most likely been on the 4th day of the week, not the 6th. The day of preparation was not a weekly thing, it was somthing commanded in Torah(hebrew for law, name of the 1st 5 books of scripture) and it is the clue to understanding all of this. I also believe that the Pagan roots of this festival should be included in this encyclopedia, being that it is fact. My sources are Lew White's "Fossilized Customs ver.5", Encyclopedia Britanica 1990 Comprehensive Edition, and Discussions with multiple accomplished religious scholars, including Michael Rood, Nehemiah Gordon, Web Hulon, Richard Coennen, and Garner Ted Armstrong. Doonak 20:53, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, some of the practices associated with Easter, and perhaps the English (and Germanic) name, are derived from pre-Christian European religion. However, the date of Easter is based on that of Passover, the Jewish festival. Its use in the early church is partly to continue the observance of that festival, but, more importantly, to celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus. Easter is the earliest festival adopted by the church (excepting every Sunday), long before Christianity came in contact with Celtic and Germanic peoples. I have heard the above statements made many times before, but it's complete bunkum based on a few stiched together facts — Germanic name, bunny and eggs. These three things are late additions to the Easter celebrations. Most ancient cultures have some kind of fertility cult — food and children are important — but to stitch them all together into some universal mother goddess (while done in some minor modern religions) is not an academic approach to the distinct nature of these cults in each area. After all, Christians actually celebrate Jesus on this day, and have done for two-thousand years. It is a bit odd to call that really pagan. The pagan elements are there, but they are fringe elements. — Gareth Hughes 21:10, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Egg roll

I know much of the easter egg tradition is included in the easter bunny article however, what about adding the American?(not sure if it originated elsewhere.) tradition of the egg roll in the "Non-religious Easter traditions" section.

the Wikipedia entry is [1]

By egg roll I mean the tradition of racing others while propelling an egg with your nose or a spoon not the Chinese appetizer.

Sdumont 13:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Proposed major change - remove Christian POV

I think this article glosses over Easter's pagan origins as a festival celebrating renewal. It's a very christian-centric article as is. I'm proposing to bring the pagan origins up front and mention that the ealy church appropriated it as a means of streamlining conversion. --Eamonnca1 22:37, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

That's pseudo-scholarship. Easter is derived from the Jewish Passover. InfernoXV 03:51, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Easter is a Christian festival; that should be the focus of this article. By all means include sections on it being derived from Passover, and even on theories that it was appropriated from a pagan feast. But, this is an encyclopedia which must reflect that Easter is the most important Christian festival. If someone types Easter into the search box, I believe they should be directed to an article on Easter as a Christian concept. Dave 08:45, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Pseudo-scholarship? How do you explain all the pagan traditions such as the decorated eggs, the movable date, and the name that sounds strikingly similar to Eostre, the goddess of spring? I quote from the other Easter article:

According to Bede (c. 672 - 735), writing in De temporum ratione ("On the Reckoning of Time"), Ch. xv, "The English months" [2], the word "Easter" is derived from Eostre, an Anglo-Saxon goddess of spring, to whom the month of Eosturmonath, corresponding to our April (Latin: Aprilis), was dedicated:

"15. The English Months.

"In olden time the English people -- for it did not seem fitting to me that I should speak of other nations' observance of the year and yet be silent about my own nation's -- calculated their months according to the course of the moon. Hence after the manner of the Hebrews and the Greeks, [the months] take their name from the moon, for the moon is called mona and the month monath.

"The first month, which the Latins call January, is Giuli; Februrary is called Solmonath; March Hrethmonath; April, Eosturmonath; May Thrimilchi;..."

"Eosturmonath has a name which is now translated "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance."

What is secure in Bede's passage is that the lunar month around the month of April in the Julian calendar was called Eostur or similar; In Vita Karoli Magni Einhard tells, that Charlemagne gave the months names in his own language and used 'Ostarmanoth' for April.

Those who question Bede's account of a goddess suggest that "the Anglo-Saxon Eostur-monath meant simply 'the month of opening' or 'the month of beginnings'." .

--Eamonnca1 17:07, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Quite simple. The Easter-Eostre connection only exists in English. The name of the festival in almost every other language is Pascha (French 'paques', Italian 'pasqua', greek 'paskha', slavonic 'paskha', and so on). This is derived from the Hebrew name for Passover. To suggest that the rest of Christendom derived its greatest festival from some obscure germanic goddess feast is Anglo-Germanic-centrism and unspeakably silly. InfernoXV 18:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I thought it was common knowledge that many of the so-called 'Christian' festivals are converted pagan festivals. The Easter egg tradition has no biblical roots, but it ties in neatly with pagan festivals at that time of year that celebrated the rebirth that comes with spring. Just like Christmas is a re-packaging of the pagan festival of Yuletide that previously was a party in the middle of the depressing winter to lift everyone's spirits, so to speak. Decorated trees, turkey dinners, christmas puddings, all of these things have no biblical basis but are derived from pagan rituals that started in Scandinavia and spread throughout Christendom when the church authorities found that it was easier to tweak existing traditions for their own purposes than to eliminate them. To leave that out of an article like this is a bit of a glaring omission IMHO. --Eamonnca1 20:29, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

It's a common belief, but it's incorrect. There's no actual evidence for it, just a lot of wishful thinking on the part of those who dislike these holy days for one reason or another. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:30, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The name in most other languages is from the Jewish Pesach/Pescha (Passover). The "movable" nature of the feast is from the Jewish lunar calendar. The decorated eggs? From the Jews. The holiday was an adaptation of Passover LONG before elements from some backwater Germanic nowhere were added to it. Dogface 22:22, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[inserted for clarification] Dear 'Dogface', Easter eggs are 100% pagan. Being that I am, in fact, a jewish scholar I take offence to the fact that you would even consider saying that it had anything to do with Jews. Easter took NOTHING from Pasach. NOT the rabbits, NOT the eggs, NOT even the days! The movable date would be from a lunar based calendar, but the fact is, it's not based on anything lunar, it's based on a weekly occurance of Friday-Sunday. Sorry, Easter is NOT in any way jewish, and if you think it is, look closely at the orthodox seder's of the jews. Then look at easter. Nothing in common. Also, it is COMMON KNOWLEDGE that the christians of the 3rd and 4th centuries, and even on into the 5th century, DID IN FACT adapt ALL christian festivals from a pagan source, not the scriptures. The old "Jewish" days were considered "out of date" and too "jewish" by Constantine and his fellows, and the pagan festivals were adapted in christianity to smooth over the transition of the pagans. Doonak 21:09, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

You claim to be a "jewish scholar" (sic). List your degrees and universities, in that case. It looks to me like you are, instead, merely parroting a neopagan and/or hardcore anti-Easter (7th Day Adventist-style) party line, distilled from a lot of tenth-rate pseudo-scholarship that is credulously passed around in the equivalent of the back alleys of "scholarship". YOU are the one who claims that we merely take your word on things on the basis of being a "scholar", so cite your credentials. If you can't do that, then cite the written works upon which you base your claims. Likewise, the idea that Constantine "invented" Easter and all the other Christian festivals smacks entirely of hardcore fringe Christian and neopagan claims, nothing at all claimed by reputable Jewish scholars. I call shenanigans. Dogface 00:25, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

'Common knowledge' only in the sense of a popular myth. The reason why Christmas, for example, is widely perceived in the Anglo-Gemanic world as a repackaging of Yuletide is because the converted Anglo-Germanic barbarians transferred some of their old festivities to the new holiday, festivities that had nothing to do with the celebration of the holiday in the older, more civilised parts of the Roman Empire. Decorated trees began with Martin Luther. Turkey dinners were certainly not done in any rituals anywhere in the old world, much less Pagan Scandinavia - don't forget turkey only came to the old world after Columbus. Christmas Puddings again are an Anglo-Germanic bit of window dressing. Try to look beyond your cultural millieu. InfernoXV 07:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Dear 'InfernoXV' the christmas tree originated in Babylon, in the worship of Tammuz. The "evergreen tree" was cut down, decorated with silver and gold tinsel, worshiped, and then they sacrificed infants on top of the tree by burning. That is where the tradition of the "cherub" on top of the tree comes from. All of the Yule traditions that have ever been recorded are presently found in christmas. So I would like to know where you got your information, because it is completely false. Doonak 21:14, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I would like to know where you got your "information", because it's a load of second-rate conspiracy theory nonsense Dogface 00:20, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi. There is a proposed move regarding this (well, a hybrid solution), currently to be discussed at Talk:Easter_(disambiguation)#Requested_move. Please take the discussion there. Many thanks, --Rebroad 10:34, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The proposed move isn't really actionable until this page has had a formal notice of the proposal, by the way. Doops | talk 19:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

In response to all of the above: this page clearly has nowhere near enough coverage of today's secular Easter holiday; it definitely needs more. On the other hand, the pagan antecedents of Easter, although real and not really open to question, can't really be called "Easter" without the benefit of hindsight -- we can't impose a definitiveness and specificity on things that, although real, are somewhat nebulous. The word "Easter" really can't be taken to refer to anything other than the modern holiday -- that that holiday is only partly religious and that it has some pagan origins (as well as Jewish ones) are important points; but where do they belong? This page. Doops | talk 19:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

No, this is dead wrong. There are no demonstrable pagan roots to Pascha. Not even most of the secular customs can be shown to be pagan as such, except where it employs universal symbols with a very common recognized meaning. (But by that standard, the alphabet is also "pagan".) TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:32, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Pascha comes from the Jewish Passover, as Inferno mentioned. As Csernica says, it's not pagan.

agreed. easter was initally a pagan festival. we need a historian of pagan gods and relgions to add facts.

The history of the Christian festival of Easter is quite clear: it is the continuation of the Jewish Passover with focus on the death and resurrection of Jesus. It is true that various pre-Christian spring/fertility customs became attached to the celebration of Easter, but, for Christians, the focus of celebration has remained unchanged for two millennia. Neo-Pagans have attempted to revive a number of documented pre-Christian customs and celebrate them, but they specifically are not celebrating Easter. Secular Europeans and North Amercians are basically left with celebrating some of the pre-Christian customs attached to Easter while rejected the central theme of the festival. I don't think this latter situation can adequately be summed up in the phrase 'Easter is pagan'. — Gareth Hughes 19:32, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I would oppose this proposition. Easter as a Christian celebration is totally independent in nature, origin, and observance from pagan traditions. I believe it is accepted scholarship that as the Roman Empire sought conversion of pagans to Christianity following Constantine, the Church incorporated some elements of pagan vernal equinox holidays into Easter (much as Christmas Trees were incorporated into Christmas) to make Christianity more palatable. This is, however, not Easter having its origins in Pagan traditions, but Easter coopting those traditions and bending them to the overall celebration of the Resurrection of Christ.66.57.229.78 16:34, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

This article should remain Christian centric as the word "easter" in its most common usage, refers to the celebration of Christian idea of the Resurrection of Christ. 66.57.229.78 16:36, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Eostre was a Germanic goddess. It is the root from which 'Easter' is derived. -- Easter is not exclusively a Christian holiday, and should not be treated as such. -- Wikipedia is about fact, not feelings.

Given that old (no longer celebrated) religious celebrations have Wikipedia entries, the full truth about Easter should be given. It should not be removed simply for fear of offending the religious, or God himself. 22:04, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

elements of a clean-up

PS -- lots of detail currently in this article should be spun off elsewhere and things rearranged. A better layout would be somthing like this:

• pre-TOC intro

1. Etymology, kept very very brief
2. Religious observance of Easter (including a brief bit about its position in the church year)
3. Easter as a secular holiday
4. The date of Easter (with only simple stuff; more detailed stuff should be spun off elsewhere)
5. History and contested points (including a summary of easter & the early church; anti-easter christians; etc.)

And the long list of other-language names can go altogether. Doops | talk 19:47, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

If information is relavant, factual, and NPOV, than I don't think it should be removed. That said, should the list of other language names be re-directed to Wiktionary?須藤 22:43, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm getting tired of this. Easter is a Christian festival. We all know that it derives from Passover, that's fine - it's still first and foremost a Christian festival. It seems that it has a complicated etymology where the English word for it invites confusion with pagan stuff - that's fine too - it's still first and foremost a Christian festival. Turns out that people like to do stuff with rabbits, chocolate and eggs on this day - fine - it's still first and foremost a Christian festival. Get the big stuff right and the minor details will sort themselves out. Christian Easter is the main thing - add all other topics on the end of that. Dave 23:29, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this post in its entirety. "Easter" as most commonly used, refers to the Christian celebration of the Resurrection of Christ.66.57.229.78 16:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Remove translations

Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Should the translations be moved to Easter wiktionary article and removed from this article? --Bkkbrad 05:00, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

"Easter alleged a Babylonian festival"

The mention of Bel and Astarte seems to be a mistake for Bel and Ishtar (or Sarpanit)as Bel (Marduk) mythology relates him to these two goddesses.

"Ishtar is the Assyrian and Babylonian counterpart to the Sumerian Inanna and to the cognate northwest Semitic goddess Astarte" Dogface 13:22, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Easter a Pagan religion

Surely Easter was initally a pagan ritual and was around at 2400BC?

I don't think this article is neutral and also i notice that so called references in the text are actually taken from the bible. The bible is not a factual book and is actually works from many authors - many of these books are not part of the historic timeline.

I think a banner should be put of this page about neutrality until this issue is resolved.

Comments on this welcome..

Pascha was never a pagan festival. That's urban legend and conspiracy theory.Carlo 15:54, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

To say that easter was "initially a pagan ritual" is misleading. Easter as the celebration of the resurrection of Christ is a distinct Christian concept. This is the most common usage of the term easter, and has nothing to do with paganism. I believe accepted scholarship is that in converting pagans in the early history of the Church, the Church allowed the incorporation of some pagan traditions to make easter celebration and the Christian religion more palatable to those they were attempting to convert. This does not mean that Easter has its "origins" in Pagan tradition. 66.57.229.78 16:42, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Oestre was a pagan goddess celebrated in the spring to recognise new growth and prolification, that is why spring flowers, rabbits and eggs are used as symbols. The symbolism of the return of life was hijacked by the church for obvious reasons, much the same as Christmas was introduced into the Yuletijd, the coming of the light. Not just Christians but people of all religions should be aware that the "books", "rules" and "traditions" they follow were all produced by mankind albeit in the name of a god. While I agree with the positive social aspect of the church, it can be argued that religions are created to work against God's purpose. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JCartmer (talk) 19:40, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Why can't Easter fall on March 21???

Here's the scenario:

What if March 21 fell on a Sunday? Also, what if a full moon were to occur just after midnight on that Sunday, March 21?? Then, wouldn't Easter fall on March 21, since it is the first Sunday on or after the first full moon on or after the vernal equinox??? PhiEaglesfan712 15:17, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

First, in the Church tables, "vernal equinox" and "full moon" as well as "Sunday" are regarded as full days, not instants of time. Second, your rule is erroneous: Easter is the first Sunday after (never on) the first full moon (Luna XIV) that is on or after the vernal equinox (March 21). Indeed, in the actually rules, it is explicitly stated that if Luna XIV occurs on a Sunday, that Easter must be delayed one week. Luna XIV, the fourteenth day of the moon, is the term used in the Church tables—full moon is not used. Nevertheless, during the Middle Ages, Luna XIV was regarded as equivalent to the full moon. Between 1700 and 1775 in Germany and until 1844 in Sweden, astronomical tables and the instants of the full moon and of the vernal equinox were actually used, based on the Rudolphine Tables of Johannes Kepler (1627). As a result, Easter was one week early about once every twenty years (IIRC). — Joe Kress 21:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Orthodox Easter date

In Eastern Christianity, Easter falls between 4 April and 8 May between 1900 and 1970 based on the Gregorian date. Does it mean there was no Easter before 1900 or after 1970??? This needs rewriting. --Jotel 07:50, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I've made an attempt to clarify the sentence, but I refuse to give all possible date ranges for years before 1900 and after 2099. — Joe Kress 07:15, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

It was implied in the previous version that the Eastern Orthodox were "mistaken" in their calculation of the date of Eastern. I removed this bias and attempted more neutral language. 11:40 AM, 19 October 2007

April 26

Why can't Easter fall on April 26? --88.78.228.207 (talk) 21:20, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Easter is the first Sunday after (never on) the first Luna 14 (full moon) on or after March 21 (vernal equinox). The latest Luna 14 in the tables used by the Church (both the Gregorian tables used by Western churches and Julian tables used by Eastern churches) is April 18. If that happens to be a Sunday, then Easter must be delayed for one week (seven days) to April 25 (Gregorian calendar in the West and Julian calendar in the East). These tables are quite complicated, see Computus. Neither set of tables uses astronomical calculations, so "full moon" and "vernal equinox" are misleading terms. — Joe Kress (talk) 22:24, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Etymology

"The English name, "Easter", and the German, "Ostern", derive from the name of a putative Anglo-Saxon Goddess of the Dawn (thus, of spring, as the dawn of the year) — called Ēaster, Ēastre, and Ēostre in various dialects of Old English and Ostara in German.[4]"

OK so the next paragraphs below the article debunk this. That not very neutural imo. Its giving incorrect accounts to boot. Xuchilbara (talk) 02:14, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Same consecutive Easter date

The cycle of Easter dates repeats after exactly 5,700,000 years. At any stage during that cycle, does Easter ever fall on the same date 2 years in a row? I think the answer is probably no, but I'd like confirmation. Thanks. -- JackofOz (talk) 11:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I just modified, tested, and ran a program to compare Easter dates of consecutive years from 10,001 to 5,710,000. No repeats. But it would be interesting to see how one can reason that out. Saros136 (talk) 21:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that quick response and the work you put in behind the scenes. Pity we couldn't include this in the article, but OR is OR. It's hard to see how reason could be of any help. Due to the mathematical and calendric complexities, and the huge length of the cycle, I doubt there's any way to establish by reason alone that a pair can't happen. But you never know, maybe some bright spark will read this and will demonstrate that it's not possible, without having to resort to a computer. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:34, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

In case you're wondering, this was to help answer a question at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous#Leapin' Lent. Thanks again. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Its impossible for them to fall on the same date twice in a row because multiple phases of the moon do not fit evenly within a year. Thus if you go ahead exactally one year, you can never been on the same phase point and the easter date can never been the same. If this could happen, the date of easter would not move at all.--Dacium (talk) 22:51, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Dacium. You're dead right; however it's not even necessary to consider moon phases. JimWae pointed out below that because the number of days in a year is not a multiple of 7, the same date in consecutive years can never be the same day of the week; hence, Easter, which always falls on a Sunday, can never be the same date 2 years in a row. QED. Even though Easter is not fixed, this reasoning works for precisely the same reason the 4th of July, for example, never happens on the same day of the week 2 years running. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:02, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Is the same date ever a Sunday two years in a row? - mathematically impossible with 7-day weeks * 365-day & 366-day years ---JimWae (talk) 22:26, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

**lights go on** - Oh, of course! Lateral thinking works best. Now you see why I don't contribute much to the Mathematics Reference Desk. Thank you, JimWae. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Non-sequitur?

The reason for this is that the full moon involved (called the Paschal full moon) is not an astronomical full moon, but an ecclesiastical moon. The difference is that the astronomical vernal equinox is a natural astronomical phenomenon, while the ecclesiastical vernal equinox is a fixed March 21.

I reread this several times and it doesn't make sense to me. While the first sentence is true, the second doesn't explain the difference, as it speaks to the date of the equinox rather than the moon. A full moon is a full moon regardless of the date we set for the equinox. Equinoxes and full moons astronomically are two independent phenomena. (I'm not disputing the fact that there are differences between both ecclesiastical/astronomical moons and equinoxes, just saying they are two separate issues while the juxtaposition of the two sentences indicates otherwise). Gr8white (talk) 02:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

That paragraph is indeed poorly worded. The juxtaposition is valid only because Easter can be determined using either ecclesiastical tables (both moon 14 and March 21) or astronomical tables (true full moon and true vernal equinox), but never one table from each realm. Astronomical tables (in particular, Kepler's Rudolphine Tables) were used in Germany from 1700 to 1775 and in Sweden from 1740 to 1844.[3] — Joe Kress (talk) 07:31, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

It still bothered me how the sentences flowed, seeming to imply the difference between astronomical & ecclastical moons stemming from the difference in determining the equinox. I reworded so the two sentences read "One reason for this..." and then "Another difference...". Hope that's OK. Gr8white (talk) 01:15, 2 March 2008 (UTC) All of this is true.

Gross Misinterpretation

An anon IP added some text suggesting "Pascha" is a "gross misinterpretation" of something. I reverted because it didn't add any useful information and was unreferenced (and doesn't belong in the caption of an image anyway). If there is some basis to this it might be added to etymology section if properly referenced. Gr8white (talk) 18:33, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Concerns regarding the Early Church section

I've noticed the section commenting on the early Church. I would like to clarify that there is indeed evidence that the Apostles (or at least one) did in fact honor pascha.

"When the blessed Polycarp was visiting in Rome in the time of Anicetus [c. 155],... they were at once well inclined towards each other, not willing that any quarrel should arise between them upon this matter [the observance of Easter]. For Anicetus could not persuade Polycarp to forego the observance [of his Easter customs] inasmuch as these things had been always observed by John the disciple of our Lord, and by other apostles with whom he had been conversant." Irenaeus (c 180), volume 1, page 569 in the Ante-Nicene Fathers (Hendrickson Publishers' edition).

There is also a lot more to be found concerning what these early Church Fathers said and wrote (particularly that it was indeed generally insisted that they celebrated it on Sunday) that I would love to include if I can get the time and access to this page. Any further questions or comments can be directed to me at sphorner at the g-m-a-i-l domain dot com. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The masters servant (talk • contribs) 01:23, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Sunday Brunch

Is Sunday brunch a religious or non-religious aspect of Easter celibrations? Should it be mentioned? --Firefly322 (talk) 06:44, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Celtic??

The last amendment has added The name refers to the Eostur-monath, a month of the Celtic Year... sorry but Easter isn't really celtic, and the word Eostar-monath is anything but celtic. Did someone mean 'Germanic year? Akerbeltz (talk) 15:21, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Good catch. Carlo (talk) 15:30, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Year

33 is given as the year of the death of Jesus in the article. I understood that "most" people understood that Dionysius Exiguus computed the year wrong when he came up with the current system of numbering. (Dionysius article is ambiguous as well). Anyway, outside of Wikipedia (!) I thought most people believed that Jesus was really born in 4 BC (no year 0) and therefore died in 30 AD, in his 33rd year. This can even be pinned down to a day of the year 33, April 7 to correspond with Passover that year. Here is one such chronology which is probably not usable as a reference unfortunately. Student7 (talk) 22:09, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Easter footer

I'm working on a footer for Easter related pages. Feel free to jump in and help make it better. Remember (talk) 19:01, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Anglosphere

Someone has just coined the word "Anglosphere" for certain Anglophone countries. Isn't this WP:OR? Is India and Nigeria included? I assume not though there are more English books published in India than anywhere else. Sounds ambiguous to me. Student7 (talk) 11:49, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

"Pascha"

The statement that Easter is "also called Pascha" is odd. That is the Latin term (hence "paschal", French "Pâques" etc.), but never used in English.

Important etymology omitted

The etymology section should note that the ultimate root of the word is the same as that for "east" and "yeast" - all connoting "rising."