Talk:British Isles: Difference between revisions
Order. |
|||
Line 1,127: | Line 1,127: | ||
<reduce indent> "Most" may very well be true but there is reference for "many". You can read "many" however you want to. As for "nationalists", the original argument was that "nationalists" were only a few of the population. I'm afraid it was me who pulled up a reference to show that it's the vast majority, so please calm down. [[Special:Contributions/79.155.245.81|79.155.245.81]] ([[User talk:79.155.245.81|talk]]) 15:39, 18 September 2008 (UTC) |
<reduce indent> "Most" may very well be true but there is reference for "many". You can read "many" however you want to. As for "nationalists", the original argument was that "nationalists" were only a few of the population. I'm afraid it was me who pulled up a reference to show that it's the vast majority, so please calm down. [[Special:Contributions/79.155.245.81|79.155.245.81]] ([[User talk:79.155.245.81|talk]]) 15:39, 18 September 2008 (UTC) |
||
::::::::::As far as I'm concerned, you can remove ''any mention'' of the [[Republic of Ireland]] from this article (maybe even the entire island of [[Ireland]]). But the ''name'' of this article ''stays'', as it's at least a historical name. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 15:01, 18 September 2008 (UTC) |
::::::::::As far as I'm concerned, you can remove ''any mention'' of the [[Republic of Ireland]] from this article (maybe even the entire island of [[Ireland]]). But the ''name'' of this article ''stays'', as it's at least a historical name. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 15:01, 18 September 2008 (UTC) |
||
::You say that ''' I am''' living in the Dark Ages, Mister No Name. Bloody hell, I wish you had been in our local pub in Clontarf with all your ranting and raving British Imperialist Marxist-inspired drivel. My friends and I would have laughed ourselves sick. You are not proud of being Irish, you pathological hatred of the British far outweighs your love for Eireann. Jesus, not even my boyfriend from West Belfast was that fanatic. He would have taken the mickey out of you as well. Not everyone shares your hatred 86.... Put on a Rolling Stones CD , relax, and try to overcome your fear of Britain and all things British.--[[User:Jeanne boleyn|jeanne]] ([[User talk:Jeanne boleyn|talk]]) 16:06, 18 September 2008 (UTC) |
:::::::::::You say that ''' I am''' living in the Dark Ages, Mister No Name. Bloody hell, I wish you had been in our local pub in Clontarf with all your ranting and raving British Imperialist Marxist-inspired drivel. My friends and I would have laughed ourselves sick. You are not proud of being Irish, you pathological hatred of the British far outweighs your love for Eireann. Jesus, not even my boyfriend from West Belfast was that fanatic. He would have taken the mickey out of you as well. Not everyone shares your hatred 86.... Put on a Rolling Stones CD , relax, and try to overcome your fear of Britain and all things British.--[[User:Jeanne boleyn|jeanne]] ([[User talk:Jeanne boleyn|talk]]) 16:06, 18 September 2008 (UTC) |
||
::::::::::::1. You have friends? 2. I note you refer to this 'boyfriend' in the past tense. How surprising-not. 3. I'm inclined not to take seriously a person who defines herself thus in 2008: 'My politics are far- right; I'm a Monarchist... and I despise the current PC mentality as it restricts freedom of thought and smooth flow of speech' 4.[[Éire]] is the nominative case. 5. With your preference for "British English" and other idiosyncrasies, I get the impression that you are running away from something in America and idealising something over in Britain (read: England). 6. All holders of the English crown since 1485 have been illegitimate interlopers and glorified shopkeepers. They are not exactly, like, French. [[Special:Contributions/86.42.119.12|86.42.119.12]] ([[User talk:86.42.119.12|talk]]) 17:06, 18 September 2008 (UTC) |
|||
1. You have friends? |
|||
2. I note you refer to this 'boyfriend' in the past tense. How surprising-not. |
|||
3. I'm inclined not to take seriously a person who defines herself thus in 2008: 'My politics are far- right; I'm a Monarchist... and I despise the current PC mentality as it restricts freedom of thought and smooth flow of speech' |
|||
4.[[Éire]] is the nominative case. |
|||
5. With your preference for "British English" and other idiosyncrasies, I get the impression that you are running away from something in America and idealising something over in Britain (read: England). |
|||
6. All holders of the English crown since 1485 have been illegitimate interlopers and glorified shopkeepers. They are not exactly, like, French. [[Special:Contributions/86.42.119.12|86.42.119.12]] ([[User talk:86.42.119.12|talk]]) 17:06, 18 September 2008 (UTC) |
Revision as of 17:10, 18 September 2008
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the British Isles article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40Auto-archiving period: 28 days ![]() |
![]() | British Isles has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Good article |
![]() | The term British Isles The term British Isles is a contentious issue. In order to better facilitate discussion of this issue, without swamping other matters, there is a specific talk page for matters relating to the name of this article. Your cooperation with keeping name-related matters on that page would be appreciated by other editors.
Please remember that article talk pages are provided only to facilitate improvements to the article. Editors uncertain about the use of talk pages should read WP:TALK and WP:NOT#FORUM. |
![]() | This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. |
![]() | This article has been mentioned by a media organization:
|
![]() | References The term British Isles is a contentious issue. Academic and other references concerning this controversy can be read here. |
May or Do?
This article says many people "may" find it offensive. Surely, even the citations support the replacement of "may" with "do". I am thinking in particular of the reference to that effect from the democratically-elected government of Ireland. But its removal from school atlases and many other references easily support that many "do" in fact find the term British Isles offensive rather than simply "may". 78.16.186.184 (talk) 19:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
- As you well know, the well runs dry far far too quickly in term of real-life examples of any "offense" taken. Even the Folens atlas people said they had no parental complaints, and it was precautionary measure. There are not anything like the kind of contemporary examples you would expect - there are virtually none in fact, outside of academic works that have their own internal weight. The fact we are allowing people to appropriate the word 'many' into this article, and re-weight it to refer to mainly themselves(!) is a total blight on Wikipedia.
- As a double compromise (over "many" and the spokesman quote), the line should be something like this: '''Although commonly used worldwide (especially in a 'technical' manner in sciences like geography, geology, archaeology, and natural history), the term British Isles has been controversial in relation to Ireland, where many people have found it objectionable.[r][r}[r] The term is not part of the legal terminology of the Irish government, and a spokesperson for the Irish Embassy has said "we would discourage its usage".[r]'''
- All the extremely finite examples of the offense taken are built up over time: there is nothing to suggest it is commonly and notably in dispute as we speak, outside of people like yourself on (and often using) Wikipedia. The argument that the words "have found.." suggests the term is now fully accepted is just blatant stonewalling - it does nothing of the kind. It is only acceptable compromise IMO - really the word "many" should be removed, and a totally non-specific statement should be made. "many may" was a compromise but is just a doubly 'weasel-worded' expression.
- Nobody in the Irish gov since 1947 has suggested that the term is discouraged, other than this 'spokesman' - so he should be quoted, if he is to be used at all. It was a quote - so why not quote it? Or we hiding an ambiguity here? He does not say in what capacity the term is discouraged - certainly is not legal terminology in the ROI. Maybe it is just in that capacity? We suggest they universally discourage it, with no evidence at all.
- Compromises aside, the line should really just say that people have taken issue with the inherent ambiguity in the term, due to the Republic of Ireland not being part of Britain, and that though a number alternatives have been suggested, only 'Great Britain and Ireland' has really been used in its place. --Matt Lewis (talk) 20:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
"Although commonly used worldwide, especially as a 'technical' term in sciences like geography, geology, archaeology, and natural history, the term 'British Isles' has been criticised for having the political term "British" within it. This is controversial in relation to Ireland [r][r}[r], as the Republic of Ireland in the island of Ireland is not British, and the citizens of Northern Ireland can have Irish-only, British-only, or joint identities, and hold British, Irish or dual citizenships. The term is not part of the legal terminology of the Irish government, and a spokesperson for the Irish Embassy has said "we would discourage its usage".[r] A number of alternatives have been proposed throughout the history of the term, although many have been criticised themselves[r], and only variations of 'Great Britain and Ireland' have been widely used. There is evidence that a form of "Britain and Ireland" has being increasingly used in mapmaking over recent years.[citation needed]"
- Line added: "and the citizens of Northern Ireland have a choice of British or Irish citizenship, or both." --Matt Lewis (talk) 14:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- Revision added: "and the citizens of Northern Ireland can have Irish-only, British-only, or joint identities, and hold British, Irish or dual citizenships." Nothing is as good as explaining the situation. If progress here remains deliberately stonewalled, and this information continues to be censored I'll take it to Arbcom and fight it on the widest scale I can. Enough is enough. --Matt Lewis (talk) 16:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- Added words: "a form of "Great Britain and Ireland". Some maps, like a National Geographic one, are using "Britain and Ireland".
- Added clarity: "and only variations of 'Great Britain and Ireland' have been widely used. There is evidence that a form of "Britain and Ireland" has being increasingly used in mapmaking over recent years.[citation needed]"
I'm not fully sure about the last line, as "Great Britain and Ireland" has always been used in tandem with "British Isles" for maps. Is it really being used more now? We really need a quote that says this. You have always been able to get geographical and political ranges of maps and globes - they are each labelled differently. --Matt Lewis (talk) 21:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
- Can you find any British Isles atlases published in the last 2 or 3 years? AA was publishing them for a long time annually, but they seem to have stopped around 2002. While there are plenty of Britain and Ireland/Great Britain and Ireland atlases published in 2008, 2007, I haven't been able to locate any 'British Isles' titled ones, even though these clearly were being published previously. Are there any? What publishers?
- On your latest wording: I know for your BI guideline you want to specify the ROI for specific consideration, but it simply isn't true here to confine the controversy about the term to the ROI. The sources don't back this up either. There is, as I assume you are aware, an international agreed treaty that makes British *identity* optional in Northern Ireland. *This* is a big part of what makes the term problematic on the island of Ireland. I'm not advocating anything in regards to the BI guideline, but we cannot insert language here that isn't accurate in describing the nature of the controversy. It is NOT just because of the ROI and to say so just isn't accurate. Where is the "throughout the term's history" claim coming from? I'm perfectly supportive of quoting the Irish embassy spokeman directly and attributing the quote to 'a spokesman for the Irish embassy to the UK". Nuclare (talk) 04:44, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- OK, I'll re-write it to include Northern Ireland! --Matt Lewis (talk) 14:07, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- I've simply added "and the citizens of Northern Ireland have a choice of British or Irish citizenship." Good idea - makes it much better. --Matt Lewis (talk) 14:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- Some would dispute that wording. I don't think citizenship is the right word to use. The less debateable way of wording it would be in terms of identity. And I'm not sure adding more sentences on this issue to the intro. is the best solution. Nuclare (talk) 16:03, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- I've simply added "and the citizens of Northern Ireland have a choice of British or Irish citizenship." Good idea - makes it much better. --Matt Lewis (talk) 14:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- What is the "best solution" then? The sentences are notable, verifiable and relevant - they only haven't happened because certain editors have wanted the Intro kept short, sweet, and dispute-heavy. In Wikipedias terms that is 100% unacceptable. I'll put in 'identity' of you wish, though I can see what is coming: it will eventially be called "too long". But I know all the games. Progress will NOT be stopped forever. --Matt Lewis (talk) 16:17, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- The problem with maps is that I can always remember "Great Britain and Ireland" road maps being in existence. Without a decent quote, it's verging on Original Research - but I'm happy to help construct a highly plausible case, certainly. I noticed National Geographic has moved BI down to the small text - but still used BI in their website. I honestly think been happening naturally over the years - I'm not sure there has necessarily been a great 'move' recently. But I'm willing to wave my doubts if a case can be made.
- The issue wouldn't be the presence of GB&I, it would be the absence of BI. I know that this could verge into OR, but I'm not so much interested in inserting language into the Wiki page concerning this, as simply knowing what sources are or are not out there using the term or not. As I said, I'm still searching for evidence of whether some of the companies that clearly were regularly publishing BI atlases (AA, Reader's Digest) still are. I can't find any, thus far. Can you be more specific about where the NG "moving...to the small text" is? Nuclare (talk) 16:03, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- The problem with maps is that I can always remember "Great Britain and Ireland" road maps being in existence. Without a decent quote, it's verging on Original Research - but I'm happy to help construct a highly plausible case, certainly. I noticed National Geographic has moved BI down to the small text - but still used BI in their website. I honestly think been happening naturally over the years - I'm not sure there has necessarily been a great 'move' recently. But I'm willing to wave my doubts if a case can be made.
- This is the one. It says "British Isles" in the small text on the map (you can zoom in and see). It use to be the "British Isles" map. I'll look through the archives for my original link - I think the original webpage had the words "British Isles" in it too. Interesting that it is now "Britain and Ireland" - not "Great Britain and Ireland". It shows how NI is commonly seen as being in Britain, as well as being 'British'! --Matt Lewis (talk) 16:52, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- Matt - I typed in the words "british isles offensive" into google and first up was "In Ireland, the term 'British Isles' has been considered as at least mildly offensive since the time of the struggles for Irish independence" [1] - in what, oddly, seems like a rival version of Wiki! Point is, there are innumerable references to the fact that the term is unpalatable, in varying degrees, to most Irish people. Constant denial of this fact is becoming irritating and is impeding any chance of progress here. Sarah777 (talk) 12:38, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- The "at least mildly offensive" example you have given (Citizendium is not a reliable source!), and your own concluding' words: "there are innumerable references to the fact that the term is unpalatable" simply do not combine. Who are you trying to kid? I'm going to construct a table that will force you to find 36 'reliable sources' past and 36 'reliable sources' present. I'll find them for usage of the word, and I'll start you off too. You will severely struggle for 'past', and as for 'present'? It will make you look foolish. I'll do the work involved as I'm tired of this shameless madness myself. All you have to do is withdraw just a little from a wildly untenable position - but you just simply won't budge. So I'll keep it up til you have no choice but to play fair, and the shrill screams of "no!" will finally be sent to bed. You have someone in me who is prepared to allow for your POV as much as possible. But your feet are just hooked to the floor.--Matt Lewis (talk) 14:07, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- Pretty full of yourself I see Matt - nonetheless I had to chuckle at the idea that you could make me look foolish! Remember two things Matt re your 36 thingies: (1) I don't do tricks for the children (2) I don't play by your rules. Sarah777 (talk) 23:19, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
- i am irish and i was just thinking (about the word british as claimed to be seen by irishmen) "why doesnt the guy round the back of the irish embassy in england tell the guy in the paper?" it may sell papers but sadly .. again why is it relative what the guy in the embassy said? it is a bit like the first paragraph where the author rattles about how they dont understand why the Isle of Man would be included as a british isle (the biggest island located right in the middle of britan and ireland) maybe its a part of france or africa. well i should bleeding cocoa. 89.204.230.38 (talk) 15:36, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Non-censored proposal for Introduction
I'm making this a proposal, as it appears the article is currently locked due to this matter! --Matt Lewis (talk) 17:23, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Current line:
The term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland,[ref group] where many people may find the term offensive or objectionable; the Irish government also discourages its usage.[ref group]
Proposed lines:
"Although the term is used worldwide in sciences like geography, geology, archaeology, and natural history, it is periodically criticised for the way the political term "British" suggests that Britain owns all the isles.[r][r}[r] This is controversial in relation to the dual-nationality island of Ireland, as the Republic of Ireland and its islands are not part of Britain, and the citizens of Northern Ireland can have Irish, British, or joint identities and citizenship. The term is not generally used by the Irish government, and a spokesperson for the Irish embassy in London has said "we would discourage its usage".[r] A number of alternatives have been proposed throughout the history of the term, although many have been criticised themselves[r][r][r], and only variations of 'Great Britain and Ireland' have been widely used. There is evidence that forms of "Britain and Ireland" have been increasingly used by cartographers over recent years.[citation needed]"
- Revision made: "specifically" for "especially" in first line.
- Revision made: "The term is not generally used by the Irish government" for "The term is not part of the legal terminology of the Irish government"
- Revision made: "Although the term is used worldwide in sciences like geography, geology, archaeology, and natural history, it is periodically criticised for having the political term "British" within it.[r][r}[r]" for "Although commonly used worldwide, especially as a 'technical' term in sciences like geography, geology, archaeology, and natural history, the term 'British Isles' has been criticised for having the political term "British" within it."
- Revision made: "criticised for the way the political term "British" suggests that Britain owns all the isles." for "criticised for having the political term "British" within it." --Matt Lewis (talk) 00:51, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
- Revision made: "and its islands" added after Republic of Ireland in the second line. --Matt Lewis (talk) 00:51, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
For me the proposal is simply a standard unbiased Wikipedia style approach. It uses notability, verifiability and weight. --Matt Lewis (talk) 17:23, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- I've no problem with this proposal. GoodDay (talk) 17:36, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- A much simpler approach for the lede, linking back to extensive and recent discussions would be : The term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland,[ref group] where many people may find the term offensive or objectionable; the Irish government has also discourages its usage.[ref group]. I have inserted "has" in deference as a compromise with Tharky's original proposal. Of course if additional citable material is available then then might change. The material on changing use of language in respect of atlases is I think a useful addition for the main body but not the lede (although I think National Geographic are using "Britain and Ireland" as a geographical not a political term by the way). The issue on citizenship and identity is inappropriate for a geography article (which has already got enough political issues). A variation of that, incorporating some of the above text would be: The term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland,[ref group] where many people may find the term offensive or objectionable; The term is not part of the legal terminology of the Irish government, and a spokesperson for the Irish Embassy has said "we would discourage its usage". I prefer the shorter version but the second version is also fine. There may also be an argument for a note containing some of the additional text in Matt's proposal. --Snowded TALK 17:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- I've no prob with this proposal, too. GoodDay (talk) 17:46, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- Come on - the "extensive and recent discussions"? You know how long I've been at this, Snowded, as I've told you. Your word "recent" simply starts where you want it to! The real 'extensive discussions' (including thousands of words from myself) have gone back for much longer: You are rather casually ignoring all the work I and others have put in more much of the year! The words "many"/"many may" have never been a happy solution since long before you joined the discussion, I have to say. And what have we got now? Another locked article. "Many may" has to go - and we have to move forward. We can only do it by being open and honest about the situation: and the above is all relevant.
- To answer your question on the map, "British and Ireland" is the new National Geographic "political" map. You should not go around Wikipedia telling people that things are inappropriate when they cross geographical/political lines, especially when it happens to suite your own politics (no less)! It's stonewalling progress to the max.--Matt Lewis (talk) 18:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Matt it went to mediation at one point, then was settled by 11 editors (you withdrew I think). I'm allowed to reference that and even to suggest it is left in place for a period. I have a different interpretation of the National Geographical site to the one you do. I also think we need a short sentence not an elaborate paragraph with material which is better handled elsewhere. None of that is stonewalling and you really need to stop making accusations, every intervention you make is becoming personal, please engage with the content not the person and remain calm. --Snowded TALK 18:14, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- To answer your question on the map, "British and Ireland" is the new National Geographic "political" map. You should not go around Wikipedia telling people that things are inappropriate when they cross geographical/political lines, especially when it happens to suite your own politics (no less)! It's stonewalling progress to the max.--Matt Lewis (talk) 18:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- You are the biggest wind-up merchant on Wikipedia. Nothing was settled by 11 editors but the 'status quo' after the initial proposals were left behind. It was a total shambles, and your part in it was simply embarrassing ("Souza proposal" indeed!). And you know damn well why I withdrew. You are totally full of it! I stuggle with AGF because I cannot stand dishonesty. You are a total bully against progress - you simply don't want to see any. --Matt Lewis (talk) 18:24, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- This diff speaks for itself Matt and to quote the mediator at the end of the process Case Closed. Great job coming to consensus without even needing the requested mediation. I'm trying to stay polite in face of the increasing vehemence of your attacks, if you want to interpret that as a wind up then so be it. --Snowded TALK 18:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- You are the biggest wind-up merchant on Wikipedia. Nothing was settled by 11 editors but the 'status quo' after the initial proposals were left behind. It was a total shambles, and your part in it was simply embarrassing ("Souza proposal" indeed!). And you know damn well why I withdrew. You are totally full of it! I stuggle with AGF because I cannot stand dishonesty. You are a total bully against progress - you simply don't want to see any. --Matt Lewis (talk) 18:24, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- Your constant provocations are the worst I've seen. You threw my last Proposal off track, I got distracted, and despite early support for my change, people in the end simply voted for no change - ie your inconsequential one-word difference!! It was a simple status quo job, and my proposal was usurped - it never even got to a vote! It was your farcical "Souza proposal" or nothing. How fair was that? That is ALL that happened before. Your edit-buddy Jack tried his hardest and succeeded to get me blocked (which he later admitted to) and I retired - you were as quiet as a lamb to me when that all happened. Not a peep. Neither event will happen again - I'm following this through to the end and no block nonsense is going to happen to stop me. --Matt Lewis (talk) 19:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- Let's wait to see what others think; we've got time. GoodDay (talk) 18:12, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- Agree --Snowded TALK 18:14, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Just popping in from my self imposed exile. I fear that Matt Lewis's and Snowded's attempts at squaring the circle are near impossible. But here am I with my input. I find it a wee bit incongruous to say many people may find the term offensive. If its a may, then you could say a small number of people may find the term offensive with equal validity. Better to say (verifiably) a number of people find the term offensive—the numbers of people are unquantifiable. AFAIK, the Irish government haven't legislated on the term BI so I don't think the term legal terminology of the Irish government could be valid here. So may I suggest a simplified section of the lede:
"Although commonly used worldwide in sciences like geography, geology, archaeology, and natural history, the term 'British Isles' has been criticised in Ireland for the use of the word British and has been discouraged from use by Irish goverment officials. Alternative terms have been proposed although none have found universal favour."
That's it, good luck, I'm off.-Bill Reid | Talk 19:29, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- I'll look again at the "legal terminology" bit - I didn't mean it in the leading 'legal' sense - maybe it's too wordy. It's a shame you feel negative, and feel the need to stay in exile. Your simplified version (although a bit too curtailed re techincal use/common usage at the begining for me) is certinly a lot better than the one we currently have. --Matt Lewis (talk) 20:17, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
"The term is not part of the legal terminology of the Irish government" - Actually it is. [2] But not used again since 1928. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 20:01, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- I'm looking at this part again. --Matt Lewis (talk) 20:17, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- "Is" - present tense Bastun. Sarah777 (talk) 23:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Why on earth is it relevant whether it's part of the "legal terminology" of the Irish government? Governments don't define language. The term is valid because it is used in English to refer to the islands that it names. ðarkuncoll 20:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- As I've said (twice) - I'm looking at this part again . Would you rather the article just suggested that the Irish gov discouraged the term's usage wholesale? As it currently does, in fact? It's a compromise - or rather an elucidation. The Irish gov is relevant in a line about the Irish gov. I could easily be stuck in a two-way shitstorm here, so you could be a little more helpful.--Matt Lewis (talk) 21:13, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
It's hard to do better than "not generally used by the Irish government". It's true - they don't generally use it, but at times they have. We can't do any better than tell the truth. --Matt Lewis (talk) 22:09, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- If we keep to the word "generally" the line "and a spokesperson for the Irish embassy in London has said "we would discourage its usage".[r]" could probably be removed?--Matt Lewis (talk) 22:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Reading it through again, what I like about the new approach is that it manages to impart a feeling that the term is genuinely used partly for want of a better option. This, to a large degree, is very much true. I think what personally upsets me so much is the constant (though sometime subtle) drive or assumption placed in the text that the term is being actively used in the face of dissent, to make a political claim. It is simply being used by 99.9999999% percent of the people who use it, to describe the islands of Great Britain and Ireland, without any malice intended at all. The vast majority of those who use it simply do not stop to consider any eternally-arguable element of 'dissent'. This version gives more of a flavour of that reality. Currently the article is very much 'oppression-heavy', and I've always found that genuinely upsetting. I know some people will say "well I find the very term upsetting!" - but it's not comparable at all. The term simply exists, and Wikipedia exists only to describe things properly. We must do all the aspects of the term justice, and not fight like rats to push any one particular point of view. --Matt Lewis (talk) 22:56, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- The problem here Matt is that the term is being actively used in the face of dissent, to make a political claim. The fact that some folk may use it apolitically is neither here nor there. Sarah777 (talk) 23:46, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- Yes - your dissent. You'll have to play ball sooner or later, because when things get back to the edit tables, blocks will eventually be dished out. Sooner or later less-friendly admins will step in, and simply not accept having locked articles all the time. --Matt Lewis (talk) 00:11, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
- I take that as a threat Matt; and another example of the way British POV is nakedly imposed on Wiki through the blocking and banning of numerous Irish Editors. Please note that I am FAR from the only voice of dissent here - also note that you have several times now stepped over the bounds of WP:CIVIL in your remarks to me. A short while ago you were complaining that you were representing the British Nationalist pov here because they were not here to represent themselves. Not it appears I'm a lone voice. Make up your mind Matt. Sarah777 (talk) 23:31, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
checkpoint
Actually Matt I don't have any great objection to the paragraph as it is developing (assuming some tweaks) but it is just too long for the lede. Given this is a geography article a single sentence is needed there at most, with either a note or a subsidiary section. You could for example take the first sentence of your paragraph (I would remove worldwide as too wordy but otherwise fine) and substitute that for the current sentence, then have the rest in a note for those who want to read it. --Snowded TALK 03:34, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
- Not sure what you mean here by "current sentence" - if the one here is fine (apart from "worldwide), why then substitute it? --Matt Lewis (talk) 16:53, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm glad you ike parts of it, but I'm still not happy with your insistence that this article must be 'pigeon holed' as a "Geographical Article", and therefore 'political terms' are not suitable for the Intro. We must surely move out the reference to 'dissent', if that is true: is that what you are suggesting - I'm not sure? Although we are trying to build Wikipedia-specific usage guidelines at WP:BITASK, in the wider world the term is used in both a technical and a cultural/political sense, as you surely know. Why can't we accept that and build an introduction that accepts it too? There are far too many "notes" here as it stands. It's a 'cop out' (at best) in my eyes, and I am certain that things have to be done properly if this article is going to settle. According to WEIGHT, if the dispute can only be fairly represented via notes, then the dispute simply shouldn't be mentioned in the Lead - as we cannot misinform people. But I think we can cover it faily and concisely in the lead. Either that or we keep the 'dissent' issue to its own paragraph, which I know some people think should happen anyway (though I think it is Intro material myself).
Note on Introduction size: Leads (or ledes) can be up to four paragraphs long, according to Wikpedia's Manula of Style. We have a very short Intro here, and in my honest experience of Wikipedia introductions (and I've contributed to a number of them), the shorter they are, the more edit warring and general fighting occurs over the inclusion of relevant information that suits more than just the one point of view. Sometimes covering the all the wished-for relevant issues concisely is simply the best route:
Guide to intro building
1) The four-paragraphs max recommendation must be considered.
3) The info must be covered elsewhere in the article.
4) WP:VERIFY: VERIFIABLE information must be used.
5) WP:NOTABILITY must exist for both the article and the introduction too.
6) WP:WEIGHT in representation must be correct according to VERIFIABILITY and NOTABILITY.
7) WP:WEIGHT between any opposing points must be correct according to VERIFIABILITY and NOTABILITY.
In difficult Introductions like this one, this is the best way to go for everyone. There is certainly a 'technique' to making a good lead - but it can be done. Keeping it as short as possible is never going to make everyone happy – on the contrary, it makes life very unhappy, as this article has proved. --Matt Lewis (talk) 16:53, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
- Matt, you've hit the nail on the head with your comment that in the wider world the term is used in both a technical and a cultural/political sense. This is the point that I believe distills the argument.
- Some will assert your statement is true. But others disagree. (As an aside, personally I wonder if a trend towards the cultural/political use of the term could be correlated with historical usage, or with cultures that are heavily influenced by the UK. We'll probably never know....)
- But I believe that there is also widespread recognition that the statement is insensitive. In one respect, it's an evolution of language and the assertion of an Irish identity, and a respect for the sensitivities of people from the North and South of Ireland, etc.
- But so what. The question we need to ask is, where is the term today? Since Wikipedia is there to inform, and not necessarily be politically-correct or sensitive, does the term still carry enough common usage to still qualify as a "cultural/political" term? This is the crux of the current argument that has split this editing community.
- In my opinion, this question was already asked and answered in the recent past, and back then the response was that it was no longer a cultural/political term - although it is accepted that it was in the past, therefore in a historical context it can still be used in this way, but it is not acceptable any longer. It was accepted though as a valid Geographical term. More recently though, even that appears to be objectionable on Irish-heavy articles....
- In summary, consensus can change. I believe the community can express some extreme views, but that it is also ready to acknowledge what the majority can agree on. Perhaps we should avoid any conceptions made in previous agreements and test consensus from this basic starting point? --HighKing (talk) 17:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that we should start afresh from now, especially with the WP:BITASK taskforce under way. Currently the proposed Guideline at BITASK is explaining the term fully - ie addressing all the aspects of the term, and I think that is wisest. It is also focusing more towards 'physical geography' for it's use on Wikipedia. You are right - it doesn't matter so much what the sensitivities (etc) are, ar are not, outside of Wikipedia. This is a consensus-driven place, so the guidelines must suit us, and suit us all - and per the general guidelines on Wikipedia that already exit, of course.
- I'm happy for Wikipedia to define a 'preferred use': it should be Geography-preferable with British Isles, and we should also go for it to ideally not include the Channel Islands too, imo. These are what guidelines are for - Wikipedia is entitled to choose an approach in these particular situations where ambiguity exists. To enforce anything though is to go against one of Wikipedia's strongest rules - no censorship. We can still make some very strong guidelines however.--Matt Lewis (talk) 21:15, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
response
There was considerable debate when this first came up and a group of editors (of which I was not one) wanted no mention at all of the controversy arguing that the article was geographical. It was finally agreed on the grounds of citation that the controversy should be mentioned. There was debate about that sentence which has been previously referenced.
My view is simple on this, I like your first sentence and I think that is better than the sentence which was previously agreed (that is what I mean by current sentence). I think the rest should be a note not in the lede. If those who argued that should be no political reference are happy to something more lengthy then I would have no objection, but I think you will have problems. At the moment there is here (and on the task group) too little involvement. --Snowded TALK 18:49, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
- Which first debate are you alluding too? It sounds like it was quite a while ago. When I encountered you in here myself you pushed for no change: and at the moment the Intro is very political indeed! (in fact, it couldn't be more in my eyes - it's basically a form of propaganda as it stands, IMO.) We need to sort this now - the WP:BITASK taskforce is now, and it is all about now - especially as the article is locked over the issue.
- RE editor involvement: when is this page due to be unlocked? I can't believe it's got locked over this again - It was so 'out of the blue' that I actually missed it happening. Looking at the edit history, it seems to be just you and Tharkuncoll 'edit warring' - I'm not sure at all that DDStretch should have moved in to lock it when he did, esp as he was very involved in the Taskforce at the time. No 3RR seemed to happen - you surely would have both just stopped, but it got locked instead. Why? You calling the line a "hard won consensus" in an edit note wasn't fair in my opinion as I have said - your "consensus" was a farcical single-option poll at the end of broken and hijacked debate! Whatever else it was, it was no true consensus however you go on about the eventual 'landslide' vote for the only option on the table: no change and it get's back to normal.
- This article shouldn't be locked, and locking it hasn't helped proceedings at all. Actions like this just demoralise and entrench people. We need people to be positive.
- I'm still not clear on what you want to keep in the Intro. Perhaps you could write your own version? Maybe then we can later have a fair poll that actually offers some choice, and offers something more than a single word-change too. --Matt Lewis (talk) 19:51, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
- Matt I really wish you would stop this confrontational style. Tharky modified the previous stable version and I asked him to take that change to the talk page. A position that was finally forced by locking the page. Your disagreement and comments on prior consensus are noted, it is however how things ended up; it is not wrong simply because you say it is wrong. My suggestion is to take your first sentence, use it to replace the existing sentence and then take your additional material and make it a note for those who want to know more. Whatever it needs more editors involved. --Snowded TALK 20:14, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
- Matt, I must agree that your rather petulant approach here is not helping. it's basically a form of propaganda as it stands, IMO - what is? Apart from the actual article title itself, where is the "propaganda"? Sarah777 (talk) 22:53, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
- How am I not helping? I am spelling everything out clearly, when some around me are simply fudging. The irony is that you think I'm not helping your own concerns, but I actually am. You can "agree" with Snowded, but he formulates all his reactions to me in a tired "oh dear, yet again..." format, while very rarely saying anything. But it will all come out in the wash - because what exists exists, and Wikipedia (for all its faults) is strong about core realities: Censorship, verifiability and 'common names' - all these 'core policies' have cemented this whole place surrounding us. Wikipedia is build on a foundation of rules. No minority can forever break it down, for all the fiercely emotional, guilt-loaded, foot-plodded, cabal-achieved shenanigans of the past. Things will find their place - and it will happen fairly!.
- What is the "propaganda"? The "propaganda" I refer to is in the immediate reverting of every honest and fair edit, it is in the scrolling dissent notes that run dry as the bold ink runs out. Where is the evidence today of people (real people) not wanting the term? Where is the ref? Even when compiled (over a number of months) from self-verifying accounts of the past, there is nothing to warrant the censorship that is demanded here! No evidence at all exists to warrant exerting the one-sided weight to the 'dissent' you demand. The "propaganda" is in the quickly-archived blast-out of every sensible talk page and poll. It is in this supposedly huge weight of 'dissent', that can only actually be 'proven' in terms of the small-but-vocal presence on WIkipedia itself. It is in the battle of attrition that makes so many neutral editors recoil in either despair, or the realisation that life is more important elsewhere. It is the 'whoopsadaisy' article-locks for no valid reason by people who should (and probably do) know better. It is in the inflammatory 'fork' pages that make people elsewhere think twice before 'offending'. It is in the single-minded hours of the extremist at night, personal contributions that show little or no other interest at all. It is in the oft-spoken desire to see the end Britain, and the tragically blind belief that what could exist directly equals what does. It is the crazy insistence that what is and what 'can be' can be effectively bargained against each other! It is in the lowering of the bar, the sleazy approach, the gut prodding force. Who really cares about the words within the term "British Isles", apart from the simple acceptance that it actually is used and exists?
- Only Wikipedia's rules will ultimately have their way, however strong some of its contributors feel they can be. Those like yourself can meet reality in the middle, or you can make it is hard as you possibly can for others to represent you more-than-fairly (as they will). Either way you will win! Not the all-out Europa you want, but your POV will certainly win thorough, you can be absolutely assured of that. Wikipedia is consensus-driven, and you and Snowded are nothing but determined (and thus strong) forces in this place. It is simply because you are both committed and do not stop. It's the same with myself. Anyone who thinks Wikipedia represents the masses democratically is completely misguided: outside of hobbyists Wikipedia is effectively a finite amount of very committed people - and that is it. It is true, isn't it? Look around you. We are completely consensus-driven - but we do have those rules. And that 'policy' will come into play - and when the British Isles guidelines go through the proposal process, a far wider audience will get a very good look at this too. --Matt Lewis (talk) 01:08, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Matt you are seeing conspiracies where none exist, you are reacting by preaching. It has become impossible to collaborate with you on this page (which is now a largely solo effort). You persist in saying that anyone who disagrees with you wants to see the end of Britain (your talk page diatribe about nationalists made so many assumptions about other people based on so little evidence I gave up counting). Calling people's approach sleazy, making the sort of accusations you make above and elsewhere is against every principles of the WIkipedia. If someone dates challenge you you "take it mediation" trying to get others to back you up. They don't, then a mediator arrives and you run away closing the request (I suppose an honest reaction as your behaviour would not stand up to independent scrutiny) I see from your talk page that you have take offence elsewhere and threatened to take someone else to mediation demanding apologies over what seems a storm in the proverbial tea cup. Can't you see a pattern here? All we have above is a diatribe of personal abuse which does you little or no credit and is becoming increasingly tiresome. Just complete your set of guidelines, base on your assumptions and put them out for public comment. Then it may be worth reengaging. For the moment this is Matt's personal page, Matt's personal project and Matt has some real ownership issues. --Snowded TALK 01:20, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- The guy at MEDCAB asked me if I still needed the mediation, and I said "no" simply because nobody had commented on the page for a while (a clear dead end), and the whole issue is clearly about Policy to me now. He said I can re-open the mediation at any point - and I'm sorely tempted to do it now after your comment, but to argue with you Snowded, is a complete and utter waste of time. I stand by every comment I made in MEDMOS, but I'm going to push on with the taskforce and this article (which your like-minded email buddy DDStretech shamelessly locked to save you from 3RR I might add - I have no problem with saying that - it is as clear as a bloody bell, and if I could I'd support-edit the revision right now. Bloody scandalous - only you two were around and it gets locked after 30 mins just at that 'key moment'. I can't tell you how bad it looks - bloody appalling). --Matt Lewis (talk) 02:08, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Seeing more conspiracies Matt? I've never been blocked or exceeded 3RR and don't plan to be. We had an editor (with a history of edit warring) who refused to discuss a controversial change on the edit page - that got it blocked. Your accusations against DDStretch are becoming seriously out of line by the way and I strongly recommend you cross that one out and apologise. Re-open MEDCAB, you could do with someone taking an objective look at your contributions to this. --Snowded TALK 02:16, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- I would agree that it is serious, yes. I can't prove anything, but it fits in with a wider pattern I've seen, and what would it look like to you? Seriously - take a step back and ask yourself that. Why did you take it to 3RR? And why can't any of us edit it the page now? because it is locked. I'm entitled to be unhappy. You talk to me about "ownership issues" - you did it to defend your cynical "Souza proposal". To 3RR? No way should the page be locked because of this. And it's negatively effected the British Isles Taskforce as it has just pissed needed people off - as both you and DDStretch were fully aware of, I'm absolutely certain. --Matt Lewis (talk) 02:49, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) this is getting sad Matt. I made three attempts to get Tharky to discuss his change rather than edit warring on what he knew would be a controversial and provocative. I'm unhappy that its locked and I dislike any editor who refused to discuss changes and just reverses, but that is the behaviour. Any admin would have done what DDStretch did, its basic Wiki process. Your Souza proposal red herring is a nonsense you know. When the mediator asked us to try and resolve it I went back over weeks of exchanges and the solution which had the most support was the Souza one (not mine, not my ideal solution but it had support), so I re-proposed it and 10 out of 11 editors agreed. If you check above you will see that I have been more than happy to change the sentence, even suggested one of yours, I just don't think a paragraph is necessary. Please calm down, look at the content not your conspiracy theories about other editors, apologise to DDStretch who does not deserve you accusation and get someone to look at the MEDCAB and related material and give an objective response. Refusing mediation, but continuing to throw out accusations is not good behaviour. --Snowded TALK 03:02, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- I'll re-open the MEDCAB case - I'm not having you saying I'm "refusing mediation", it's a bare-faced lie as you know damn well I have refused nothing. Don't think it will be big 'high five' for you or any other usual suspect who will pop in to support you - you know how badly I think of how you have behaved on the whole matter, and I'll pull no punches with anyone if it's a proper mediation case. I may be pissed off right now but I had enough of your provocative approach and little digs. Souza's initial suggestion was based on my own proposal - it immediately got all confused (mostly down to yourself completely mistaking the "page as it stands" for a proposal by myself - you weren't following things properly) during which Dave Souza simply left the debate altogether! There was no 'proposal' by him all - it was something you took up and ran with when I was not around. I've seen you do nothing but game, game and game on nationality issue ever since, and wherever you have gone.
- How you can you say any editor would have "done the same" as DDStretch and locked this article is beyond me. Half of Wikipedia would be shut down if all admin "did the same" as DDStretch and simply supported their favoured edit and editor on 2RR by locking an article. Neither of you would have 3RR'd - you know that damn well. And if it wasn't locked we wouldn’t be having this conversation - it is pure frustration, and all brought about by an admin and an editor sharing a single-minded pursuit. As for apologising to him - he knows where I am and can speak for himself. His lock was at once another stupid play against Tharkuncoll (all of which I would say has got none of us anywhere), another move to support yourself (and as an admin he has absolutely no right at all to take sides) and a clear move to prejudice the guideline towards his own clear 'use-limit and dispute-heavy' POV. To prejudice the building of a Wikipedia guideline is a serious matter. It doesn't get much more serious than that in here, surely. And I can do without your constantly personal edit notes too. So you are tired of me? I am tired of you. I don't care what tracks you leave - you don't have a leg to stand on. I'll see you back at MEDCAB - at least it will keep this crap out of here. --Matt Lewis (talk) 07:23, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Pleased to see the intent of opening the MEDCAB Matt, look forward to the reality. I'll ignore the chain of insults that follow. --Snowded TALK 11:16, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- The MEDCAB that I originally opened all about you has now been requested to be re-opened. You must think people are as daft as brushes. --Matt Lewis (talk) 13:08, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Pleased to see the intent of opening the MEDCAB Matt, look forward to the reality. I'll ignore the chain of insults that follow. --Snowded TALK 11:16, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Unprotection
I am unprotecting the article now. I hope that discussions will lead to an absence of edit warring, which was the motivation for imposing the protection. I have not had this article on my watchlist since about a day after the protection, as I no longer wish to engage in any over-heated discussion on any of this. All I will say is that if the protection was viewed as being inappropriate, one could easily have gone privately to any other individual administrator and asked for them to review it. I have not had a chance to read through any of the long discussions, above, but I believe that it would be unhelpful to do so, since matters are getting out of hand. I suggest that people step back, and particularly stop making unwarranted assumptions about motivations here, which are expressly to be avoided in all discussions. If the MEDCAB matter is re-opened, I will not contribute other than to announce my withdrawal from the issues and to describe the extent of my non-involvement from a few days ago. The decisions and protections that I made to various articles can easily be reviewed by approaching other individual administrators if required, and this is all part of normal wikipedia functioning. As for myself, I am washing my hands of this whole controversy, because I am not convinced that accusations made against me can ever make any of my views on the matter have any perceived positive contribution any longer. I have much more pressing real-life matters to concentrate on for the next weeks. DDStretch (talk) 09:41, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Moving on
Why don't we take the suggestion from Bill Reid for the lede as follows: Although commonly used worldwide in sciences like geography, geology, archaeology, and natural history, the term 'British Isles' has been criticised in Ireland for the use of the word British and has been discouraged from use by Irish goverment officials. Alternative terms have been proposed although none have found universal favour. Additional data in Matt's paragraph than then be put in a note as supporting material? --Snowded TALK 11:20, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Because it does nothing that WP:LEAD requires. It focuses on the name controversy and nothing else; it doesn't describe what the British Isles are or summarise the article. The naming controversy is not a major attribute of the British Isles, it's a minor aside. It hardly needs to appear in the lead section at all. Waggers (talk) 11:37, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Having a single sentence was a means of avoiding a renaming dispute as I recall, one sentence to acknowledge the controversy in several paragraphs seems reasonable. The current version does this and was stable until recently. --Snowded TALK 11:42, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- I'm very happy with the current version; I don't see any need to change it or expand it. In particular, I dislike the "Although commonly used" thing as it suggests it shouldn't be commonly used, and that's not neutral. Waggers (talk) 11:46, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- I was trying to accommodate Matt but the current version is fine by me if we can avoid edit wars. --Snowded TALK 11:49, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- I'm very happy with the current version; I don't see any need to change it or expand it. In particular, I dislike the "Although commonly used" thing as it suggests it shouldn't be commonly used, and that's not neutral. Waggers (talk) 11:46, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Having a single sentence was a means of avoiding a renaming dispute as I recall, one sentence to acknowledge the controversy in several paragraphs seems reasonable. The current version does this and was stable until recently. --Snowded TALK 11:42, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Well I trust that we do not wish to "Move on" from my proposal in the sense of it being a thing of the past! I've only recently proposed it, and the article has only this morning become unlocked. Waggers - if you are happy with the Intro as it is, why did you propose a variant of my proposal a couple of months back? Surely you will accept change here? An issue I have with a good few people here is they clearly - to me at least - want to have the smallest Intro as possible, so it doesn't 'rock the boat' - and each person seems to offer their own caveat on this. I find this both anti-Wikipipedia, and completely adverse to its intended effect. That admin seem to wish it too is not a good sight for me - the negativity all around is not good in general.
- Surely the only way through this is simply by having an honest and open introduction? It is difficult to cover both "sides" fairly and keep it as tight as we possibly can (not that we've exactly tried to be fair). When the squeeze happens, one 'side' usually bulges through - and it is completely obvious when reading this Intro which side it is here! And the bias has been allowed to prevail too, and has been protected like nothing else I've seen on Wikipedia. I cringe over the Intro as it stands - it simply deceives the readers rather than informing them. It makes it look like the 'dissent' is running strong in the world outside of Wikipedia (without any real-world evidence at all) and it makes it look like the Irish gov actively discourages its people from using it (also without any evidence at all). The extended notes with all the bold text is a shocker too (who else has this on Wikiepdia??).
- And why would people take "offense" at British Isles, anyway? People might object to the inaccuracy, yes - by why offense? Queue all the anti-British rhetoric. This article is just another stab at Britain isn't it? I am British and I certainly object to that. I understand the dispute - but the "offensive" thing has no evidence and is stirring up a kind of nationalism that I object to in the extreme. We have to cover this term reasonably and fairly - it is simply all I want to do. - --Matt Lewis (talk) 14:04, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Matt, I'd suspect you are trolling here were it not for my assumption of WP:AGF. It would appear from that remark that you are monumentally ignorant of the history of these islands and that you have not read the numerous times your question has been answered in the archives of this very talkpage. Perhaps it might be an idea to actually read the full discussion before displaying extreme British nationalism? Sarah777 (talk) 09:42, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
- "Extreme British nationalism"? Me? I missed this before - you really ought to be more careful Sarah. If I was ripped off by an Irish gypsy (to pick what can be a negative example of the Irish that exists today) would I have the right to take it out on you? No. To resent the very word "Irish" for it? Most people are bigger than this. The word British exists. Britain exists. I am British, and am proud to be British - I've told you many times before not to make the term British into an automatically negative thing, because of whatever has happened in the past. I consider it to be nothing less than a form of racism, and I'm just getting tired of it, as I can see it in so many places now. I don't believe for a moment that you see youself as being bigotted in this way - but maybe you should give it a little thought? You seem so intent on re-igniting British/Irish history that you appear to are blind to what you are doing (and who you are offending) to achieve it.
- You may take offense over the word "British", but clearly the majority of people either find the term a potentially misleading anachronism, or are not bothered by it at all. We simply don't have the stats, as so few references exist on the matter. The "many take offense" idea is truly gross. I've never met anyone so intent on digging up the past as you: in a climate of such long-awaited peace I cannot understand it at all. Honestly - what will you gain? You won't remove the term, only time will do that. All you and Wotapalava are doing is 'hate mongering' by using the word "offense" in this way, and in applying the word "many" in a present tense you are bending a very finite clutch of references way past breaking point. --Matt Lewis (talk) 17:53, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- I've no objection to the introduction being longer - but if the controversy bit is made longer and the other bits aren't, then it would become disproportionate. The rule of thumb in an introduction is that the first sentence should define the subject, and then there should be a paragraph for each section in the article. What I don't want to see is undue weight being applied to the naming issue. Perhaps if the "offensive" is the problem we could remove it (as we already have the word "objectionable" there and "offensive" is a subset of "objectionable")? Waggers (talk) 15:54, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- I've change the intro per this suggestion: "offense" in this present tense is an unreferenced progression of the word "objectionable". --Matt Lewis (talk) 17:53, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- I've no objection to the introduction being longer - but if the controversy bit is made longer and the other bits aren't, then it would become disproportionate. The rule of thumb in an introduction is that the first sentence should define the subject, and then there should be a paragraph for each section in the article. What I don't want to see is undue weight being applied to the naming issue. Perhaps if the "offensive" is the problem we could remove it (as we already have the word "objectionable" there and "offensive" is a subset of "objectionable")? Waggers (talk) 15:54, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
The intro is fine as it is (in relation to the "dispute"). It concisely, clearly and honestly mentions the dispute then moves on. In particular, I dislike the proposed rewrite that, "Although commonly used worldwide in sciences like geography, geology, archaeology, and natural history" as it begs a question and attribute greater weight and rationality to one point of view by associating it with science and learning. (In fact, it could equally be said that the term is not commonly used worldwide in sciences like geography, geology, archaeology, natural history, etc. Exactly what proportion of scientific publications use the term? I suspect that it is not commonly used term at all. What proportion use the term in favour of an alternative phraseology for the same meaning? Unknown, I imagine.)
"And why would people take "offense" at British Isles, anyway? People might object to the inaccuracy, yes - by why offense?" These are indeed good questions, and answers to them would make fantastic substance for this article the article on the dispute itself. Unfortunately, I suspect you mean them rhetorically and are unlikely to research the answers to them as they appear in the literature on the subject. --89.101.103.185 (talk) 20:21, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Get yourself a name and I'll answer you. --Matt Lewis (talk) 17:53, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- Hey guys, have you ever thought of getting a neutral point of view? It appears this argument is being discussed by people who have their own politics to push. Do you all think people in the real world spend their time arguing over the term British Isles? If you want a neutral point of view, just ask, I may even tell you. Skipper 360 (talk) 22:41, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
- I'm going to tell you anyway. The term British Isles will die out eventually, which is not a bad thing, but while it is commonly used it cannot be ignored. It has to be used, many people will not be happy with this, but they must take consolation in the fact it will one day be a redundant term. There you go, a neutral point of view. PS: If a neutral point of view is not welcome here, I apologise for interfering in your discussion/argument. Skipper 360 (talk) 23:20, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
- You've done nothing wrong Skipper 360. There's just to much politics & possible censurships issues around these topics. GoodDay (talk) 23:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
- Why is there censorship, I understand politics, but who is censoring this article? Skipper 360 (talk) 23:37, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
- My apolgoies, censurship is too strong a description. I'm just plain frustrated. GoodDay (talk) 23:38, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
- Hey, no need for an apology, I'm just trying to understand. Skipper 360 (talk) 23:42, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
- That's interesting Skipper, but you do realize you are not telling us anything that isn't already in this article? The term *is* being used here and isn't being ignored, as clearly this is a BI page and there are thousands of BI references on Wiki. The article, then, states that many people are not happy with this. That is about all the substance produced by what you call your NPOV. So, what's the problem? What has all of what you call your neutral point of view produced on this page that isn't already here? Nuclare (talk) 18:20, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
- "many people are not happy with this" is certainly a lot better that "many may find it offensive"! But there is no evidence that "many people ARE not happy with this". There are simply no present-tense refs for this statistic. We only have the instance of a handful of Wikipedia editors that it is true, and a very finite clutch of refs that are being bent into present tense to hide the lack of direct examples. I don't know what GoodDay originally felt when he used the word "censorship", but when I've attempted compromised changes to the Intro in the past (simply to the make a way-OTT lead a little more balanced), and have been brushed back so harshly (immediate 3RR's etc), that I've certainly felt myself that reality is being censored here for highly political motives. And I feel it even more when the article is locked. --Matt Lewis (talk) 17:53, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- I forget what I meant on August 22. I was very peeved then. GoodDay (talk) 20:29, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- Matt, I feel you are trying your best here but I am utterly puzzled by your difficulty with the manifestly obvious fact that many Irish people find the term "British Isles" objectionable when applied to Ireland. Sarah777 (talk) 22:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- "Objectionable" is certainly better than "offensive", but
- We simply don't have anything like the kind of references for "many" that is needed to support the appropriation of it into the introduction. It's a policy thing. And the government line is non-policy too: we should ('at best') give the ambiguous line and let people make their mind up what was meant by it. And as for that scolling bold-blazened ref list.. policy and guidelines are out of the window!
- I'm of the opinion that most Irish people are not in the mood for this, to say the very east. The climate is clearly for peace, however awkward the term may be.
- They Irish have arguably the strongest national identity in the whole word, even taking those in Northern Ireland into account. I've honestly never met an Irish person insecure of their Irish identity! Outside of Wikipedia I could perhaps say - although, politeness aside, I do suffer from perpetual NGF in here. AGF to me is like an enforced pagan religion: I can act it when spears are at my throat, but I could never believe in it. People here know nothing of each other, so policy must come first.
- I simply do not think that a handful of people on Wikipedia represents Ireland at all. Hence the lack of real world examples on this "many find it offensive/objecionable" matter. I'm happy to show the dispute, even in the lead, as WP:consensus is about Wikipedia (not at all the real world). But I have a voice too, and I insist things are done fairly. --Matt Lewis (talk) 00:02, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- What do you mean by "enforced pagan religion"? ðarkuncoll 00:07, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know - the Aztecs or something. People with spears. I'm not an expert. --Matt Lewis (talk) 00:18, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- What do you mean by "enforced pagan religion"? ðarkuncoll 00:07, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
I just don't understand the big deal over British Isles. If I were an Irishman desperate for independence and got it I wouldn't give a fig what they called the "British Isles". I would just be cockahoop we were independent. I've been to Ireland on a number of occasions and never heard this topic being raised. Where are all the demonstrators with their anti British Isles banners? I honestly think this has been blown out of proportion. Skipper 360 (talk) 00:35, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
PS: Heres what I think. Your average person in Ireland just get on with their lives not thinking about politics or history, in fact, if they are same as most people around the world they know very little about either. If you say British Isles to them 99% would not blink an eyelid. Now, take for example, a university educated Irish person, particulary one educated in Irish history, a history that will not give a good light to the British Empire, rightly or wrongly, a proportion of them will object to the term British Isles. Does this indicate a large amount of Irish people object to it? I don't think so. For those who object to it, sticks and stones people, sticks and stones. Skipper 360 (talk) 00:49, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- If you say British Isles to them 99% would not blink an eyelid. That is the sort of rubbish that makes people get irate about this issue. 99% don't go "demonstrating with their anti British Isles banners" - that isn't the issue; they find it offensive (not 99% but most people). To claim otherwise is to be phenomenally ignorant of Ireland. The bizarre notion that finding something offensive must be validated by "demonstrations with anti-British banners" or is negated by the fact that "your average person in Ireland just get on with their lives not thinking about politics or history" is daft it hardly merits a reply. "Your average person in England just gets on with their lives not thinking about politics or history" - does that mean they'd be perfectly happy if Wiki described them as Nazis? Bull. Please use some intellectual rigor here. Sarah777 (talk) 01:05, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- If wiki and the rest of the world described us as Nazis you can bet your life we would march with banners. I'm sorry if I'm not intellectual enough for you. I do try. Skipper 360 (talk) 01:11, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- (a) I doubt you would; (b) the "rest of the world" don't call us British. Sarah777 (talk) 01:16, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- Crikey, next time I post here I'll wear a helmet. Skipper 360 (talk) 01:40, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- Well if you start by throwing rocks into the air you should not really be surprised by the need --Snowded TALK 05:07, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- As far as I'm aware there were no rocks being thrown. If anyone can prove to me that more than 50% of the Irish population find the term offensive then please do so, until then there is no point stating it in talk pages as though it were true. As for Sarahs comment "the rest of the world don't call us British" I don't recall saying they do. Snowded, should I keep quiet in case someone is offended by my opinion, is this what you mean by throwing rocks? If only someone had told me opinions were not welcome I wouldn't have bothered with wiki in the first place, and I won't.Skipper 360 (talk) 09:44, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- I'm tempted to bring up Irish Sea; but I won't. GoodDay (talk) 19:37, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) No need to keep silent, but then no reason to complain about needing a helmet if someone reacts to your remarks! --Snowded TALK 22:20, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
From the Guardian
"What strange and soupy national identities we have on these British (ahem) Isles." [3]. Could we go with British (ahem) Isles ? Sarah777 (talk) 09:30, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
- Now that we have a reliable source for the term? Sarah777 (talk) 09:50, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter how many citations/sources are presented. There'll always be editors who steadfastly refuse to accept British Isles on Wikipedia & editors who'll steadfastly refuse the term being censured in any form. GoodDay (talk) 13:26, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
- And editors who insist on putting it in, even when its unecessary --Snowded TALK 17:27, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed. GoodDay (talk) 17:31, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter how many citations/sources are presented. There'll always be editors who steadfastly refuse to accept British Isles on Wikipedia & editors who'll steadfastly refuse the term being censured in any form. GoodDay (talk) 13:26, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
- You do get rather negative, GoodDay. A Guardian article (written today) has finally appeared. It says "British (ahem) Isles" - by an Irish woman in 'Comment is Free'. I is not an editorial, but a personal option - but very a decent source all the same. The amount are sources we find are absolutely crucial. Reliable sources are the life-blood of Wikipedia; when a lot are to be expected we must never exaggerate the amount of them (which we so unacceptably do now).
- "British national identity is, and always will be, a dog's dinner: complicated, contradictory, and faintly absurd. I like it that way. Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, the more complex the better, it reminds us that we are a mongrel country with a messed up past and an uncategorisable present." (from the article) How many times have I said just that? We need to describe this, not hide it in political soundbites like "many people find it offensive or objectionable".
- I am reverting Sarah's removal of "may" - it is a weasel word, but without it the whole paragraph is grossly unfair. The Guardian article in no way offers a reason to say conclusively that "many" are offended by the term.--Matt Lewis (talk) 15:51, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
- Since when are weasel words now preferred to their absence? Many people do find it offensive; I know that from personal experience and we have references to support that. Not including the Guardian article. We are not saying that "many" means 5% or 80% of the population - we are saying simply "many". Personally I'd prefer "most" as I think it is more accurate, but I'll settle for "many" unqualified by weasels. Please undo your revert. Thanks. Sarah777 (talk) 18:30, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
- As a citizen of Northumbria, I find the term "England" offensive. I want as little to do with the tyrants in London as Ireland do. Do I get to redefine England just because I and a few tens of thousands of fellow North-Easterners don't like to be associated with London? Our lands were raped and pillaged as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.194.235.55 (talk) 21:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
- If you engage is a series of political and other struggles over many years, win independence and then secure EU and UN recognition for Northumberland (presumably with a Percy as King) then yes you could. --Snowded TALK 22:19, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
- As a citizen of Northumbria, I find the term "England" offensive. I want as little to do with the tyrants in London as Ireland do. Do I get to redefine England just because I and a few tens of thousands of fellow North-Easterners don't like to be associated with London? Our lands were raped and pillaged as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.194.235.55 (talk) 21:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
- Negative? try frustrated, that's a better description. GoodDay (talk) 16:08, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
descriptive image
I'm not completely averse to this type of map image, but I have a few issues with this one as it stands. The colours used in the image at Countries of the United Kingdom came via a consensus Poll and could be used in place of the more controversial colours here (the voters chose yellow for Northern Ireland and red for Wales). The map should also be called "British Isles" (the name of the article) and not "UK and Ireland". Isle of Man is in the British Isles too, but is left from the island list here. Whilst I agree that Wales etc are countries, sovereignty should really be at the top (rather than the list of countries): it could be confusing to people as it stands. This could be a quite hard diagram to do fairly, in fact.
On the whole I prefer the idea of a Euler diagram, which 'dots' the Channel Islands - although we could always have both types. --Matt Lewis (talk) 13:12, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
- As a small comment, the satellite image on the same page is named as being an image of the UK. I propose that we rename the image. --HighKing (talk) 23:03, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Oileáin Iarthair Eorpa (Islands of Western Europe)
Under the year 1584 in the Annals of the Four Masters: 'M1584.2. Sir Niclas Maulbi gobernóir chóiccidh Connacht d'écc i n-Áth Luain fá initt, fer foglamtha i m-bérlaibh & i t-tengtoibh oilén Iarthair Eorpa esidhe' (http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/G100005E/index.html) which translates as 'Sir Nicholas Malby, Governor of the province of Connaught, died at Athlone, about Shrovetide. He was a man learned in the languages and tongues of the islands of the West of Europe' (http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T100005E/index.html). So much for the idea that the Irish had always used the term British Isles, and that it was simply a recent nationalist trend for them not to use it and instead to "invent" alternatives like the 'Islands of Western Europe'. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 03:38, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
- We're talking about English here, not Gaelic. This is, after all, the English Wikipedia. ðarkuncoll 07:36, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- Please explain the relevance of that statement. The text has been translated into English, for those of us who are ignorant of the Irish language. Are you saying that all translations are, somehow, suspect? Or, only this one? Daicaregos (talk) 09:26, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- I think the point is that "British Isles" translates into different languages in different ways, and some languages use different terms altogether. But WP policy is to use the most commonly used English-language name - so it's a general thing: as far as naming is concerned, other languages don't count. Waggers (talk) 09:43, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- So all latin references should be ignored? Crispness (talk) 10:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- As far as deciding on the name for the article and usage of the term in the English language are concerned, yes. Waggers (talk) 11:00, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- So all latin references should be ignored? Crispness (talk) 10:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- I think the point is that "British Isles" translates into different languages in different ways, and some languages use different terms altogether. But WP policy is to use the most commonly used English-language name - so it's a general thing: as far as naming is concerned, other languages don't count. Waggers (talk) 09:43, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- Please explain the relevance of that statement. The text has been translated into English, for those of us who are ignorant of the Irish language. Are you saying that all translations are, somehow, suspect? Or, only this one? Daicaregos (talk) 09:26, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
NO MORE RACISM
I am working hard to help improve Wikipedia (offline at the moment), and will not tolerate any more anti-British racism. Every time I see the unproven "objectionable" return, or the word "may" recmoved I will revert it. I don't give a shit about "3RR" when racism is concerned - racism is racism and I'm not putting up with it. I don't give a toss if I'm banned for it either. WERE ARE THE REFS?????? I've had ENOUGH - a handful of babies are not just running the creche here, they are running the entire bloody floor.
Do you small group of crazies really thing Wikipedia can prevent the use of this term? Jesus! We are an encyclopedia not a flaming soap box.--Matt Lewis (talk) 23:31, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I have restored the text to that which was agreed by several editors as part of a mediated consensus. That does include "may" which I have left in place. I have no idea where you get this idea that the current words are racist, but I strongly recommend you calm down and abide by normal wikipedia process.--Snowded TALK 23:49, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- The single-word change was suggested on this talk by Waggers (per other suggestions for change without using the word), met with no disapproval at all, and was tellingly accepted on the main page with no disapproval either. People are happy with this extra nonsense-word being removed. Is that not consensus? I believe it is.
- Your supposed "consensus" (from almost exactly 3 months ago) is just a mere speck in time that is well-hidden in these labyrinthine archives. What you wrongly keep pretending is "consensus" was a meaningless moment that signified nothing but an end to a 'debate' that totally confused , then completely turned away from the original proposal, just to settled on a one-word change simply to close it. I didn't vote in it, nor did a number of people on this page. Those attending was actually a 'roll call' of one side of the nationalist argument. It was not about the word "offensive" - it was about no-change being settled on (ie a typical story with changed, confused and broken proposals). The main proposer wasn't around to follow his original proposal through, as you very well know (having seen him retire). The mediator wasn't even needed, and said as much. It was no 'consensus' - as you very know: the words "mediated consensus" simply mean "it is what I want to see".--Matt Lewis (talk) 03:17, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Has Matt been drinking?ThatsGrand (talk) 23:47, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- That's a bit personal, isn't it Wikipeire? --Matt Lewis (talk) 03:17, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- I fear the coming storm. GoodDay (talk) 23:50, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yes it's that flipping poll you didn't agree with, but voted in anyway to get it all over with again. If there was ever a lesson to be learnt! --Matt Lewis (talk) 03:17, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- The references are there for "offensive" and "many" (footnote 4, for instance), should you calm down and take the trouble to read them. You are making this girl, Anna23, seem rational. Seeing as you have brought it up, I'm quite sure you are "working hard" and that your involvement with wikipedia is entirely impartial and is not shaped by your nationality; it's just that this edit history indicates a strong emotional attachment to British-related issues, especially concerning British pride. It is great, though, to see racism-free rationality dovetail so perfectly with one's national prejudices. Funny how that always happens to nationalists! 86.42.119.12 (talk) 04:56, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yes it's that flipping poll you didn't agree with, but voted in anyway to get it all over with again. If there was ever a lesson to be learnt! --Matt Lewis (talk) 03:17, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
I've added a reference specificially for "many" and "objectionable" and removed the speculative "may" (we are guided by facts not maybes aboud here). The citaion I've added is Hugh Kearney, 2006, The British Isles, Cambridge University Press: Cambridge:
“ | The title of this books is 'The British Isles', not 'Britain', in order to emphasise the multi-ethnic character of our intertwinded histories. Almost inevitably many within the Irish Republic find it objectionable, much as the Basques or Catalans resent the use of the term 'Spain'. | ” |
Now, let's bring this pettiness to an end. --62.24.204.7 (talk) 16:01, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- We all know the Kearney book - it's the only ref for the present tense you have. It is written in Kearney's context - not Wikipedia's. We need more refs to appropriate the word "many" - we can't just take Kearney's. I own the book and Kearney actually uses the term "British Isles" for contemporary life, and Ireland today. So how do we know what kind of 'many' he means? Not enough to refrain from using the term himself, clearly. So where are the other "umpteen" refs for how the Irish feel now? They don't exist, Gold Heart (or whoever you are).--Matt Lewis (talk) 18:18, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Heading towards protection again
Just a word of warning, after being stable for a while this article is heading towards being protected again as the same edit warring seems to be breaking out again. Canterbury Tail talk 11:49, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- It may be the only way to get discussion on controversial issues here before changes are made, especially when an agreed consensus is called racist. --Snowded TALK 12:02, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think anyone's called the consensus racist. Remember it takes two to edit war, and right now you're one of the two. Waggers (talk) 13:59, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- So if you ask someone to take to talk page to discuss, they revert and threaten to keep reverting you should just let them do it Waggers? Please ....--Snowded TALK 16:04, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- All this disruption now has been caused by you alone. That "consensus" poll of 3 months ago was no consensus at all: Where was Blessed Saint "Souza"? where was I? Where was the original proposal (or suggestions around it)? Were was Tharcuncoll et al? You have no right to treat it as a statute because it clearly suits your POV. As the original change proposer (of this time) who wasn't around for this particular poll, I personally consider it an insult, and it should clearly be put behind us - instead I fight it every time you comment in here, like it's the 11th Commandment. The single poll-within-many was an object lesson on why NOT to have a pointless poll just to end a discussion. No wonder Wikipedia strongly frowns on such polls (and so many do not join in) - this one has been abused to the maximum by you. --Matt Lewis (talk) 16:31, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- eleven editors were engaged, I did not fully agree with it but it was the best compromise we could agree at the time. It can be changed by discussion. You are one editor making a series of statements about that agreement. Just engage Matt, no one is trying to enforce a POV here, just make sure that people discuss and agree before editing --Snowded TALK 16:35, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Engage? It's all I do. You have a bloody cheek you really do. You just go around reverting to your POV. You have the article locked again now too - yet again you get what you want.--Matt Lewis (talk) 19:35, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- eleven editors were engaged, I did not fully agree with it but it was the best compromise we could agree at the time. It can be changed by discussion. You are one editor making a series of statements about that agreement. Just engage Matt, no one is trying to enforce a POV here, just make sure that people discuss and agree before editing --Snowded TALK 16:35, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- All this disruption now has been caused by you alone. That "consensus" poll of 3 months ago was no consensus at all: Where was Blessed Saint "Souza"? where was I? Where was the original proposal (or suggestions around it)? Were was Tharcuncoll et al? You have no right to treat it as a statute because it clearly suits your POV. As the original change proposer (of this time) who wasn't around for this particular poll, I personally consider it an insult, and it should clearly be put behind us - instead I fight it every time you comment in here, like it's the 11th Commandment. The single poll-within-many was an object lesson on why NOT to have a pointless poll just to end a discussion. No wonder Wikipedia strongly frowns on such polls (and so many do not join in) - this one has been abused to the maximum by you. --Matt Lewis (talk) 16:31, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- So if you ask someone to take to talk page to discuss, they revert and threaten to keep reverting you should just let them do it Waggers? Please ....--Snowded TALK 16:04, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think anyone's called the consensus racist. Remember it takes two to edit war, and right now you're one of the two. Waggers (talk) 13:59, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Issues
OK these are the two questions - would people please quickly express the views here. --Snowded TALK 16:17, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Should "may" be included
- Weasel word and unnecessary --Snowded TALK 16:17, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Absolute weasel words. Are there any citations supporting the opposite view that might cast doubt on to what is provided by the citations - that the term is objectionable? --62.24.204.7 (talk) 16:21, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- THIS IS POV SHOCKER COMBINED WITH THE OTHER POLL. I REFUSE TO VOTE IN SUCH AN OUTCOME-CONTROLLED POLL. --Matt Lewis (talk) 16:28, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- A "POV SHOCKER" - ?? How can you be shocked when there are umteen references from top UK-based publishers supporting the it?? --62.24.204.7 (talk) 16:30, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- The poll on "may" here is clearly designed to try and keep the word "many" in on its own. "Umpteen" - was it that? The new word for "one"? --Matt Lewis (talk) 16:34, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- A "POV SHOCKER" - ?? How can you be shocked when there are umteen references from top UK-based publishers supporting the it?? --62.24.204.7 (talk) 16:30, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- "Umteen"? It means 'many'. As in the umteem references in footnotes 4, 6, 8 and elsewhere to support the statement that the term is objectionable to many in Ireland. Are there any references to support an opposing view that you insist on casting doubt on verifiable sources through the insertion of weasel words? --62.24.204.7 (talk) 16:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- But for offensive? Only one ref says "many may find the term offensive": It is Kearney's own context, and he frequently uses the term for modern Ireland himself. He does not verify the statement (weakening it as a reference), and we cannot verify Kearney ourselves with any other references at all for the present tense. Yet we appropriate it as if it is true. It's not on.
- As for "objectionable" - there is a finite amount of refs for that too. They fall off into academic tracts. Nothing like the amount we need to put it in the intro like this - although I accept that Sarah et al have most of the power regarding that (we are 'consensus'-lead Wikipedia after all). But "offensive" is way outside of policy. --Matt Lewis (talk) 20:57, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Matt Lewis' POV trumps umteen sources published by leading UK-based presses? Yawn. When will you get it that this is not big deal and your panic over it is driven by nothing more than your nationalist POV? Sources, Matt, umteen published sources vs. your personal campaign to have it your way. It is tiresome. Yawn. --78.152.194.24 (talk) 13:51, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Are you the world's ultimate difficult teenager? Yawn? Or are you perhaps a basic troll and a committed misinformer? It's not the "press"!! It's the content!! The verifiable sources far too quickly tail-off and simply disappear, and academic presses never stop rolling either. One would rightly expect a veritable wealth of choice given the "many object" way we currently deal with this - but we simply have only a motley clutch of close-but-not-close-enough often-ambiguous mostly single-opinion esoteric references! Why do you think that all the meagre sources that have been painstakenly collected over the years have been gladded-up in blue-rinse 'maskara', like a defiant streak of hair drawn over a bald man's head by his absinthe bewildered wife? For some reason (I don't quite now why myself) there are simply bugger all references to show any kind of unacademic non-esoteric popular dissent, loud or quiet, big or small. All the alternative name stuff is there - but the dissent?? The anger?? The offense?? Good god - you don't think it's because - shiiiiiit - you don't think it's because - shi shi shi shi - you don't think it's beacuse? Oh my go oh my go!!! QUICK - ALL HANDS TO BOARD ALL HANDS TO BOARD!!: THERE ARE UMPTEEN SOURCES THERE ARE UMPTEEN SOURCES THERE ARE UMPTEEN SOURCES!! PEOPLE ARE RAVASHED BY THIS!! THE INJUSTICE, THE INJUSTICE!! --Matt Lewis (talk) 15:06, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Matt Lewis' POV trumps umteen sources published by leading UK-based presses? Yawn. When will you get it that this is not big deal and your panic over it is driven by nothing more than your nationalist POV? Sources, Matt, umteen published sources vs. your personal campaign to have it your way. It is tiresome. Yawn. --78.152.194.24 (talk) 13:51, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, Matt, there are umteem sources. Please provide a source to the counter if you believe it not to be the case. Otherwise, around here, your opinion is just that - your opinion. And it counts for nothing. --78.152.216.124 (talk) 22:50, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- "May" should NOT be included. 89.129.142.89 (talk) 01:22, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Should "offensive" be included
- I think the sources support this --Snowded TALK 16:17, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- "Offenseive" is ridiculious. Objectionable is supported - but offensive!? No doubt Sarah777 will bound in to equate 'British' with 'nigger' - but the rest of us are hardly "offended" by the word, merely "object" to it. --62.24.204.7 (talk) 16:21, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- NO. Quote two sources that say that "many" people find the term offensive in the present tense (the tense we give)? There are no "sources" (in plural) at all! --Matt Lewis (talk) 16:28, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- For "offensive" no, but sourced were provided for "many" and "objectionable":
- 1. Hugh Kearney, 2006, The British Isles, Cambridge University Press: Cambridge:
- 2. Bennett, Martyn (2003). "What's in a Name? the Death of the English Civil War: Martyn Bennett Examines How the Terminology We Use about the Great Conflict of the Mid-Seventeenth Century Reflects and Reinforces the Interpretations We Make". History Review.
- Both of these were used as citation in the revision that you reverted.
- To them, you may add The Dynamics of Conflict in Northern Ireland: Power, Conflict and emancipation. Joseph Ruane and Jennifer Todd. Cambridge University Press:
- Geographical terms also cause problems and we know that some will find certain of our terms offensive. Many Irish object to the term the 'British Isles';...
- --62.24.204.7 (talk) 16:53, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Only Kearney uses it in the present tense, and then goes on to use the term for contemporary life! Who are we to appropriate his context? --Matt Lewis (talk) 18:21, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Cool. So we should have a mix of present, continual present, future and past and continual past? Basically, you say, the sources support the assertion that many Irish find the term objectionable now, for the time being, in the future, in the past and have have found the term objectionable for some time? OK. I'm fine with that. Put that in. --78.152.194.24 (talk) 13:57, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Only Kearney uses it in the present tense, and then goes on to use the term for contemporary life! Who are we to appropriate his context? --Matt Lewis (talk) 18:21, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Saying offensive is OTT. Objectionable is fine. I don't know why this is such a big deal.ThatsGrand (talk) 16:36, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Until somebody goes door-to-door, getting signitures of those who find the term offensive? There's not much reliability in any sources provided as evidence. GoodDay (talk) 20:26, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Is that a vote against us using "offensive" along with objectionable then? --Matt Lewis (talk) 21:09, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yep. GoodDay (talk) 21:13, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, offensive is supported by the existing sources. And here's another one: Timothy Baycroft & Mark Hewitson What is a Nation? (Oxford, 2006), p. 273: 'The "British Isles", however, does include the island of Ireland, although the adjective "British" used in this context is often found offensive by Irish nationalists', and another one, http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/british-isles/. 213.202.160.91 (talk) 02:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- That web linke is an "under construction" amateur site - it is not a WP:reliable source! What is a Nation qualifies with the word "Irish nationsists"!! You have given two examples - and neither work for the current introduction. --Matt Lewis (talk) 15:58, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, offensive is supported by the existing sources. And here's another one: Timothy Baycroft & Mark Hewitson What is a Nation? (Oxford, 2006), p. 273: 'The "British Isles", however, does include the island of Ireland, although the adjective "British" used in this context is often found offensive by Irish nationalists', and another one, http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/british-isles/. 213.202.160.91 (talk) 02:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Sources, smources. Was there a national poll held in the republic, to determine the percentage of those offended by the term British Isles? GoodDay (talk) 02:21, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- It is offensive in a major portion of the land area to which the term applies! It must stay - anything else in naked censorship and imposition of British nationalist POV. Sarah777 (talk) 02:26, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- All of that is your personal opinion - not a word of it can be proven. The censorship here is in the disallowal of any information that crowds the word "offensive". It is surely the single worst case of censorship of this type on Wikipedia.--Matt Lewis (talk) 15:58, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- It is offensive in a major portion of the land area to which the term applies! It must stay - anything else in naked censorship and imposition of British nationalist POV. Sarah777 (talk) 02:26, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- I'm just curious. Has anybody ever gone door-to-door throughout the republic; to get a percentage. GoodDay (talk) 02:28, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Is that relevant? And I assume you know the answer to your own question. We don't verify things on Wiki by going door to door; we use third party sources. At least that's how I understand the system. Sarah777 (talk) 02:57, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- We don't have "third party sources" (in plural) for the current introduction. --Matt Lewis (talk) 15:58, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- Is that relevant? And I assume you know the answer to your own question. We don't verify things on Wiki by going door to door; we use third party sources. At least that's how I understand the system. Sarah777 (talk) 02:57, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- "Sources, smources." Yes, GoodDay, sources. "Was there a national poll held in the republic, to determine the percentage of those offended by the term 'British Isles'?" Not according to the sources. They state it simply as a well-known fact. It is tiresome how you campaign against facts. Or is it knowledge that you have contempt for? --78.152.194.24 (talk) 13:57, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Offensive or objectionable mean much the same thing in this kind of context. Needs to be included. 89.129.142.89 (talk) 01:24, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Reversion by Snowded
Snowded,
You are reverting the removal of "may" (which you agree is weasel words). On your last reversion, you wrote: "am simply restoring the the last agreed version." Exactly how the inclusion of weasel words an "agreed version". Not just it is counter to policy, but looking through the history, all is see is days of people removing it only to have it put back in for days. --62.24.204.7 (talk) 16:41, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- I don't like "may" but it was a part of the compromise reached. I hope most people here want to remove it. But it is and was an issue so it should be discussed first. Hence this talk page to end an edit war. --Snowded TALK 16:44, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- This is not a democracy. It doesn't matter what "most people" want. Facts are facts. Weasel words are weasel words. --62.24.204.7 (talk) 16:54, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Fully agree, I said "discussed" not voted. and we need citations etc. Hopefully we can improve this. --Snowded TALK 17:03, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- "May" is indeed weasel. 89.129.142.89 (talk) 01:25, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Offensive to the Irish
As a great liker of the Irish people, I find it personally offensive that a small group of them come on here and demean their country by making it seem like they're a nation of petty-minded bigots stuck in the 17th century, with nothing better to do all day than object to phrases in the English language and try and tell the rest of the world how to speak. ðarkuncoll 17:33, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- I object to any English person liking any Irish person. It's against nature, I say! Go like someone on your own island! (And take your lovey-dovey words with you, as well!) --62.24.204.7 (talk) 17:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Nah, most English are wankers. And being English I'm allowed to say that (and may even be one myself). ðarkuncoll 18:06, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- The only thing offensive about this article is that certain eurosceptic wikipedia editors are still claiming Ireland to be in what they term the "British Isles". That, and the "concern" of the same editors for the feelings of the Irish. Things don't get more surreal. 213.202.160.91 (talk) 01:43, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- I wonder, are UKers offended by the term Irish Sea? Just curious, folks. GoodDay (talk) 01:47, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sure you wonder, but not near as much as I do about the speciousness of your comment. If it offended your friends, they would have changed it in the same manner that they changed everything else that bothered them about the Irish people, such as Irish placenames, Irish people living under Irish law, speaking Irish, owning Irish land and ruling Ireland (to name but a few). Yes, the tolerance of your friends is legendary. 213.202.160.91 (talk) 02:37, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- I wonder, are UKers offended by the term Irish Sea? Just curious, folks. GoodDay (talk) 01:47, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- The only thing offensive about this article is that certain eurosceptic wikipedia editors are still claiming Ireland to be in what they term the "British Isles". That, and the "concern" of the same editors for the feelings of the Irish. Things don't get more surreal. 213.202.160.91 (talk) 01:43, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Please refer to my comment above about how posters here are making it seem like the Irish are stuck in the 17th century. ðarkuncoll 08:36, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Very interesting. GoodDay (talk) 02:41, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- G'Day - you have made that pointless remark now a dozen times and it has been pointed out that (a) nobody cares what you call that sea because (b) nobody lives in it. Sarah777 (talk) 02:30, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Ah hah! Not in it, but around it. The Irish Sea has a British coast. GoodDay (talk) 02:32, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- No, Britain has a British coast. The Irish Sea is next to the British coast (and an Irish coast). What's your point? Nuclare (talk) 02:53, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- My point is - it's proper name could've been British-Irish Sea.GoodDay (talk) 13:10, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Well, then, call it the 'British-Irish Sea' if that will make you happy. Again, what is your point? It's not a question of 'proper' names; it's a question of names that people from certain areas accept or reject. Many Irish people reject 'British Isles.' I don't know of any British people who rejects 'Irish Sea.' If you do, fine, post your evidence at Irish Sea and take it up there. Nuclare (talk) 14:48, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Cool. GoodDay (talk) 15:00, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Manxmen and Manxwomen live in the Irish Sea. ðarkuncoll 08:33, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Very interesting. GoodDay (talk) 02:41, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Have they evolved webbed feet yet? :) Daicaregos (talk) 08:57, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- No, they don't. Nuclare (talk) 12:12, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Protected
Since the edit warring continued past the last warning, and before anyone has to be blocked for 3RR, I'm re-protecting this article for a period of two weeks. You all know why. Remember, protection doesn't indicate a preference or support of the current version, it's just the version the protection was implemented on. Canterbury Tail talk 18:26, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Good move. GoodDay (talk) 19:07, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- I wonder if you actually enjoy articles being locked sometimes GoodDay. Have you ever once seen it work in here? --Matt Lewis (talk) 19:28, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, I don't. GoodDay (talk) 19:39, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- I know that - but the second question is the interesting one. --Matt Lewis (talk) 19:43, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Sadly, no. Frustratingly, shortly after things have settled & this article in unprotected? Somebody, somwhere, will light another match. GoodDay (talk) 19:51, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Two weeks of this ongoing racism? I'm sure if I can accept that. For me - either it is unprotected after we decide in the enforced poll above that the word "offensive" is not warranted, verifiable or needed - or Wikipedia will be an anti-British quantitly for two whole 2 weeks. I despair when people like Snowded can so easily get a page locked like this. We must realise that a locked article is what Snowded and people like him want: and admin (for whatever reason) have always kept it on the disrupter's prefered version - unfortunately that can't be denied with this article, and page protection has simply helped prevent the introducion from progressing for a long time now, as it gives all the power to one side of an argument. It is honestly a major part of the reason why we simply cannot get anywhere: someone reverts, an IP pops up, the page is locked and people get demoralised. There are people who have openly said they are not interested in this disruption, and keep away from this talk page. We have people who have admitted they will vote on the 'status quo' if it gets the article unlocked. The current status quo is not Policy at all, but this perpertual "toy-fling article-lock" cycle has simply kept it in place. This amount of power given to one side of an issue makes a mockery out of Wikipedia's supposed fairness, and is a huge insult to the people who actually work hard developing this place.
Can this page be unlocked after the poll on the word "offensive"? I need to know this, because one or two people here are able to stonewall any more complicated changes (ie two or more words) forever. If we can sort out that one word things can settle down a bit (as they had before Snowded kicked the apple cart). Yet again the article suffers from the actions of one editor.--Matt Lewis (talk) 19:28, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Well the last time I locked the article I got criticised for locking it on a pro-British stance. Now I'm being criticised for it being on an anti-British stance. Not possible to win around here (and I'm not looking to win.) Protected is better than disrupted. It can be unlocked if there is a genuine consensus among editors for everything currently being fought over. Canterbury Tail talk 19:45, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- You are mistaken here. The last time the article was locked it was criticised for being an anti-British stance. The problem is that it is always that way - because the cycle has simply kept the article that way. That's my point. --Matt Lewis (talk) 19:51, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- No tis you that are mistaken. Last time I protected it (19 May 2008) I was criticised for it being pro-British as seen here. Canterbury Tail talk 20:00, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Now now Ben! What I asked was: Does British pov merit a higher lever of protection from the Wiki-Admin "Community"? I wasn't accusing you of being pro-anything except pro-NPOV! (And my next post in that sequence was effusive praise in that regard for your good self. Ben, you have cut me to the proverbial quick, so you have :( Sarah777 (talk) 03:05, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- I thought you said the last time it was locked. Either way, that is a protest by Sarah on your talk page: and how was that page lock possibly a British POV? It's like calling the sun green. She didn't even give you a reason! Forget the automatic accusations by Sarah (who doesn't want Wikepedia to use the term with Ireland involved at all) and look at the reality: the clear cycle is massively anti-British, and it's about time someone addressed this. --Matt Lewis (talk) 20:48, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Matt, I am getting to the end of my tolerance of your constant and nonsensical attribution of motives to me (and others). Please try to behave like a civilised editor. You have some severe ownership issues that you need to address. --Snowded TALK 21:20, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- I am past the end of my tether with you, and have been past it for a while. This article being locked right now is entirely down to you edit warring and not letting the accepted edit settle (with an IP and ThatsGrand - who you know damn well is a sockpuppet of Wikipeire - backing you up). Either this article and the editors working on it start following Policy, or it will carry on being locked in this totally disgraceful cycle forever. I can't actually express how badly I feel about how this cycle has gone on and on here. It is treating decent editors appallingly - letting them talk and talk and talk and talk and talk and talk and talk with no benefit at all. --Matt Lewis (talk) 21:34, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Please stop with the false accusations and personal attacks.ThatsGrand (talk) 21:41, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Matt, I'd recommend letting the checkuser run its course. Remember, innocent until proven guilty. GoodDay (talk) 21:43, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- I'm putting forward a case. --Matt Lewis (talk) 22:02, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Matt, I'd recommend letting the checkuser run its course. Remember, innocent until proven guilty. GoodDay (talk) 21:43, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- :It was not an accepted edit Matt; try reading your own threats to revert and revert again if you can face up to some self-reflection. Get a grip, stop throwing insults and try treating your fellow editors with some respect. --Snowded TALK 21:44, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- You, an IP and a sockpuppet didn't like it. But it's all it takes in here. Are you really happy in that company? One thing you are not is a socker - so why don't you step back and reflect yourself?--Matt Lewis (talk) 22:02, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Any word on how ThatsGrand fared in the checkuser? Is he good for a vote? Sarah777 (talk) 03:09, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- What do you mean "vote"? --Matt Lewis (talk) 03:13, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- I make decisions on content and process Matt not on who is involved. If we have another sock puppet then it can be checked, but we should assume good faith until proven one way or the other. As I said (but you did not read) I am not necessarily against the content of what you do, but I do object to the process by which you assume you are somehow or other free from the requirement to discuss things first (or in this case to ensure you have agreement). I do find it ironic that you complain on the one hand that two editors is "all it takes", but on the other hand think that as one editor that you can ignore agreements reached by ten. Even if you won't reflect, I do suggest you stop the rapid fire insults, its not helpful. --Snowded TALK 05:50, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- There is nothing wrong with my process at all. It is your poll-insistent process (on anything you don't like) that is the problem here. Your 3 month-old '10 editor' wall of usual suspects was a disaster - but it's no wonder you have been obsessed with polls ever since. The mediator (although he didn't have to do a thing) should be totally scolded for letting it pass. You managed to completely obliterate a proposal and its subsequent discussion and get every anti-British person to sign a list for no change, and you haven't stopped gloating about it since. You know it had no significance, weight or integrity, but you have used it like it is the law of Moses. I retired during it and I feel like retiring every time I think of it it annoys me so much. Wikipedia is completely vulnerable to the machinations of people obsessed on polls. Wikipedia simply doesn't recommend them. It is very rare that they don't alienate a group of people, and simply just do a count for the other side. I've worked my arse off saving a number of polls (incuding the one at Wales you're recently used as the reason to revert my change) - next time you are involved in one I'll just let it fall around you. We must go by policy not polls. We must feel our way through changes (as so nearly did just lately), not force everything into a militaristic roll call. --Matt Lewis (talk) 11:05, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- I make decisions on content and process Matt not on who is involved. If we have another sock puppet then it can be checked, but we should assume good faith until proven one way or the other. As I said (but you did not read) I am not necessarily against the content of what you do, but I do object to the process by which you assume you are somehow or other free from the requirement to discuss things first (or in this case to ensure you have agreement). I do find it ironic that you complain on the one hand that two editors is "all it takes", but on the other hand think that as one editor that you can ignore agreements reached by ten. Even if you won't reflect, I do suggest you stop the rapid fire insults, its not helpful. --Snowded TALK 05:50, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- What do you mean "vote"? --Matt Lewis (talk) 03:13, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Any word on how ThatsGrand fared in the checkuser? Is he good for a vote? Sarah777 (talk) 03:09, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- You, an IP and a sockpuppet didn't like it. But it's all it takes in here. Are you really happy in that company? One thing you are not is a socker - so why don't you step back and reflect yourself?--Matt Lewis (talk) 22:02, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Please stop with the false accusations and personal attacks.ThatsGrand (talk) 21:41, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Clarify - ..get every anti-British person to sign a list for no change?. GoodDay (talk) 14:05, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- OK - as you said, you voted just to get the article unlocked. And Waggers too of course (who felt the same I'm sure). And maybe Batsun.. I'd like to know what was on his mind. But the rest was an eager line up for sure! --Matt Lewis (talk) 15:10, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Cool. GoodDay (talk) 15:13, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Matt, you have become disconnected from reality, attributing motives to people which cannot be sustained. Accusing people of being anti-British just because they disagree with you. You have ownership problems every time you edit that you are incapable of acknowledging. You make intemperate accusations of racism and prejudice where at the slightest excuse. It is impossible to deal with you on the basis of evidence, citation or fact. You use mediation as a threat to try and force agreement, then back off if anyone takes you seriously. The distressing thing is that I think you genuinely believe that what you say above is true. Sorry its just not worth attempting to engage with you any more. When and if I edit on these or related pages I will do my best to treat each of your edits afresh as if you were a new editor with no history. I think its probably the only way I can assume good faith on your part. --Snowded TALK 07:49, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- The term is often offensive in Ireland, to many people. There's no "may" about it. This is also supported by the references that I can read. Whether or not this should be the case is entirely beside the point. 81.32.182.214 (talk) 00:02, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Disappearing "British Isles"
Somebody earlier asked about the removal of the term "British Isles" from modern maps, such as by the AA and even major non-British corporations such as National Geographic. Why are these very important changes not mentioned in this article? I decided to google to find out a list of other companies who have dropped the use of "British Isles" from their maps and replaced it with 'Britain and Ireland' or 'Great Britain and Ireland' in recent years. A quick Google reveals that even Philips has removed the term "British Isles" and replaced it with "Britain and Ireland" for all their maps, road and desk. Philips maps are the most memorable from my childhood, and were often free with British newspapers and consequently in our budget-crushed classrooms. In the map section of my university their old Philips map has "British Isles" in large writing. Now, however, there is the Philip's Britain and Ireland Desk Map and Philip's Road Atlas Britain and Ireland . A search of "British Isles" on their website has maps for "Britain and Ireland" (http://www.philips-maps.co.uk/index.php?nID=product&id=&ISBN=9780540089178). I wonder do they put it back in when the maps are given to The Daily Telegraph? The actual evidence from Philips' website is, however, that "British Isles" is removed from their modern maps. "British Isles" has also been removed from the modern Michelin Map, and replaced with 'Great Britain and Ireland' (http://store.randmcnally.com/product/international+maps/europe/united+kingdom+and+ireland/michelin+map-+great+britain+&+ireland+(713).do, and indeed Rand McNally has now no result at all for a search on its website of "British isles" (http://store.randmcnally.com/p2p/basicSearch.do?keyword=british+isles). Collins maps have also removed the term "British Isles" from their maps and replaced it with Great Britain and Ireland Road Map (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Britain-Ireland-Road-Map/dp/0004489802). Interestingly, South-West England and Wales now appear in a series entitled Great Britain and Ireland Road Map: South West England and Wales Sheet 2, and should there be any doubt that Ireland is not in the "British Isles" according to Collins, the series is given the subheading in parenthesis, '(Collins British Isles and Ireland Maps)' (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Britain-Ireland-Road-Map/dp/0004489802). So, from this very brief search of these map companies, the term "British Isles" has been removed from maps published by:
- AA
- National Geographic
- Rand McNally
- Michelin
- Philips
- Collins
In addition a quick search of Google Maps, the most influential map publisher in the world, has no record of "British Isles" either and instead has simply the name UK over the UK and Ireland over Ireland (See here: http://maps.google.com/). Google's solution is of course the most intelligent, and further evidence of the antiquated meaning of "British Isles" (why isn't this "British Isles" article a historical article?). So, Google Maps can be added to a list of major map-making companies which do not use the term "British Isles".
- Google Maps
Please add to this list accordingly, because this article is (inexplicably?) underplaying all these extraordinarily significant changes in the use of the term "British Isles" and this article is consequently representing a very traditional British nationalist take on events, but at the same time purporting to be an article on a modern name, without giving due weight to fundamental modern developments regarding that name. It cannot be both ways. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 18:05, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- You have some points but here, but there is exaggeration also. Philips always made "Britain and Ireland" maps. There was never that many British Isles maps! Political and road maps are usually different from geographical ones (the labelling etc is different too: politic/road/geographical). NG uses "British Isles" in the text on the map, but has changed to "Britain and Ireland" for the heading. As for the "inexplicable" absence of this evidence from the article - you have completely lost me with that! I offered changes involving mentioning cartographers above - but nobody would accept it because it meant losing the word "offensive". The sad truth is people here would actually prefer keeping the word offensive near the word British than include all the kind of detail I would personally like to see. GoodDay liked it, but Sarah and Snowded rejected for not showing enough dissent. It needed work sure, but what can you do? When the admins act as badly as they do here, even one singular dessenter would have all the power in this article. A couple of flown toys and it's locked. How about getting an ID by the way? I've had it up to here with IP's lately. --Matt Lewis (talk) 18:31, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Disappearing British Isles II
When was the last time anybody heard the term "British Isles" used on the BBC, ITN/UTV, Channel 4 or even Sky News weather forecasts? I might have heard it on Sky News about 5 years ago, but that is a big 'might'. I would expect to hear it on Sky given its ownership/politics but in fairness I do not hear it at all. Today's BBC weather over a map of Ireland and Britain is, for instance, focused only on the UK and headed accordingly (http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/ukweather/). Channel 4 is precisely the same (http://www.channel4.com/news/weather/), while Sky's weather covers all of Ireland as well as Britain and the term "British Isles" is not used (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Weather). I couldn't find ITN's online weather news page. On a daily basis the term "British Isles" is invariably avoided by all the main British news/weather stations. Needless to say, I have never heard it used on Irish weather forecasts. Again, should this avoidance of the term by both British and Irish news/weather channels not be given due weight if this article persists in claiming to be an article on a modern name? 86.42.119.12 (talk) 18:25, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- That's just rubbish I'm afraid - I hear it on TV regularly enough, especially on geographical programmes (which I watch a lot of). What point are you trying to make anyway? Nobody says it's used everyday, or on the news etc, why would it be? None of this proves dissent - or proves anything really.
- Like the maps - it was never used every day on TV - so why the dramatic "disappearing"? And so what if it is being used less anyway? That gives us no reason to say that "many people object" to it. --Matt Lewis (talk) 18:31, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think that's the point he/she is trying to make. As I read it the editor is suggesting that is being used very rarely by international companies. I agree the term is used in Britain, I hear occasionally it on the BBC. The point has nothing to do with people objecting to it in a direct sense, just how using ther term BI might not be the international standard anymore.ThatsGrand (talk) 18:42, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Why would something that is only discussing the UK use, or deliberately avoid using, the term British Isles? It's not relevant to that. Canterbury Tail talk 21:38, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- And why would someone discussing something in Ireland use the term "British" Isle? Sarah777 (talk) 21:46, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Shouldn't be, unless it's relevant. Shannon being longest in British Isles is relevant, as is Lough Neagh being largest in British Isles. However the examples being given above of the weather forecasts where they only discuss the UK, it isn't relevant to mention the British Isles. Canterbury Tail talk 11:33, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Shorter non-censored proposal for introduction
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Shorter 4 paragraph revision:
I hope this doesn't sound to evil. Half the Introduction is given to the controversial nature of the term. I think that is fair enough, as long as it keeps to the details and doesn't mislead, or insidiously tell people what to think.--Matt Lewis (talk) 19:12, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
As much as I hate doing it, I feel forced into using a vote:
DiscussionI'm no longer concerned with the content of this article (too much hassle). However, I'll repeat it again - the article's title must not be moved. Why? you ask? 'Cause British Isles is (at least) a historic title. Historic titles stay put (examples: Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia, Irish Sea, English Channel, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland etc). GoodDay (talk) 15:18, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi Bogorm, 'Oileáin Iarthair Eorpa' means Islands of Western Europe, which is of course far more accurate than calling Ireland after the name of one of the islands. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 17:52, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
The title must remain. If ya'll don't like it? create a new article called Great Britain and Ireland (I believe Sarah777 attempted that, months ago). GoodDay (talk) 18:13, 7 September 2008 (UTC) "Must"?- you're opinion? This title must (see, we can all do that) not remain over Ireland in any wikipedia article other than a historical (an historical as lesser educated people say) article. It is more of the age-old British imperialist claim to Ireland. That historical article should make clear that its use in English arose in tandem with the emergence of British identity, and particularly with the assertion of British claims to Ireland from the 17th century. I suspect that that sort of historical accuracy would not be welcome to you. I note, also, that you are refusing to integrate the extensive evidence about its removal from maps, weather forecasts, academic books and much more into your views concerning the justification for the current title on an article purporting to be on a modern entity. This refusal simply accentuates the entire British pov agenda behind this article, from title to content. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 18:33, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
I wish you'd both reconsider. But, it's your choice. GoodDay (talk) 18:51, 7 September 2008 (UTC) |
Shorter non-censored proposal for introduction (revised)
This is an even shorter version:
- The British Isles (Irish: variously Na hOileáin Bhriotanacha, Oileáin Iarthair Eorpa, Éire agus an Bhreatain Mhór;[r] Manx: Ellanyn Goaldagh; Scottish Gaelic: Eileanan Breatannach; Welsh: Ynysoedd Prydain) are a group of islands off the northwest coast of continental Europe which comprise Great Britain, the island of Ireland and a number of smaller islands.[r]
- There are two sovereign states located on the islands: the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and Ireland.[r] The group also includes the Crown dependencies of the Isle of Man and can, by tradition, include the Channel Islands, although the latter are not physically a part of the archipelago.[r] There are other common uncertainties surrounding the extent, names and geographical elements of the islands, and the term has been objected to throughout its usage.[r]
- Although the term is a geographical one, it is periodically criticised for using the political term "British", which suggests a British ownership of the archipelagos.[r][r}[r] This possibility of a mistaken interpretation causes the term to be controversial in relation to the island of Ireland, which is largely Irish and only British in Northern Ireland, which is about one sixth of the island. The term is not generally used by the Irish government, and a spokesperson for the Irish embassy in London has said "we would discourage its usage".[r]
- A number of alternatives have been proposed throughout the history of the term, although many have been criticised themselves[r][r][r], and only variations of 'Great Britain and Ireland' have been widely used. There is evidence to suggest that alternative terms like "Britain and Ireland" have been increasingly used by cartographers over recent years.[r]
It loses the details on geographical usage, and makes the unpopularity link to the 'BI term dispute' article even clearer. The above is NOT a too-large introduction. Over half of it is now about the disputed element - but this is OK - as long as it does not infer that the word "British" is "offensive" in itself (and with only one non-verified non-nationalist citation to even support us using the word!). --Matt Lewis (talk) 16:39, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- Support: --Matt Lewis (talk) 16:39, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- Support as a starting point - we still need summaries of the other paragraphs in the introduction, but this wording is an improvement. Waggers (talk) 19:59, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- This could be hard when the article is locked - but we can still keep to four parags, a decent size and get some other stuff in too.I'll give it a go - maybe if more meat is in it, less people will turn away. --Matt Lewis (talk) 21:34, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- Extremely Strong Oppose (still) The "revision" does nothing to address the neglect of NPOV in stating that one POV is correct ("the term is a geographical one") and calling the the other a "mistaken interpretation". It also deliberately marginalized the opposing POV by reducing the matter to something that is only "periodical" (never mind "mistaken"). The evidience from the sources (not to mention this discussion page, and anecdotal evidience from those of us who live in Ireland) is that objection to the term in Ireland is not "periodical" but on-going and common-place. There is no need for a longwinded rigamarole when the current version is matter-of-fact, thoroughly sourced, to-the-point and doesn't labour unnecessarily upon an otherwise trivial matter. All that needs to be said: "The term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland, where many people find the term offensive or objectionable; the Irish government also discourages its usage." --78.152.202.100 (talk) 20:22, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- The actual sources (in plural) do not back-up "objectionable" for 'general people' in a present tense - only one does, and it is unverified and is not enough for the line we use! The sources do not back up "the Irish government also discourages its usage." either. Who do they discourage? The people of Ireland? We don't know, and we have nothing to verify it with to support the particular line we use. So we can give the quote. Why do you object to showing the evidence? Is it becasue you want to suggest more? This is all about suggesting more, isn't it?
- And why are you still hiding behind a dynamic IP? What will happen if you register? I can only assume you are afraid of someonw connected your edits, and a checkuser revealing who you are.--Matt Lewis (talk) 21:34, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- "The actual sources (in plural) do not back-up "objectionable" for 'general people' in a present tense ... " Of the top of my head, here's three:
- "On the top of your head" - what rubbish! These are all you have. It's actually the word "offensive" I've always principally argued against - the fact that you demand them both, when objectionable on its own has no verified refs.--Matt Lewis (talk) 00:38, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- "Many Irish object to the term the 'British Isles';..." - Joseph Ruane and Jennifer Todd, The Dynamics of Conflict in Northern Ireland: Power, Conflict and emancipation
- But do actually they verify it? Cambridge or no, these academic presses never stop (I know very well, having run a secondhand bookshop near a university for a period of my life) - I'd have to read it to see their context, too. You must read all of the WP:verify page - including the WP:REDFLAG section, and WP:undue weight too.--Matt Lewis (talk) 00:38, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- "Be aware that the Irish may object to the name British Isles, even in a strictly geographic sense." - National Geographic Styleguide Manual
- They say "may", and still use it in the embossed text on the front of their "Britain and Ireland" map. It's only good enough for "may". Again - they don't verify this - it's just "may". --Matt Lewis (talk) 00:38, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- "Almost inevitably many within the Irish Republic find it [the term British Isles] objectionable ..." - Hugh Kearney. The British Isles, A History of Four Nations
- Kearney doesn't source it (ie it's non-verified), and goes on to use the term for modern Ireland thoughout his book called British Isles. We don't know his context (nationalist?). --Matt Lewis (talk) 00:38, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- "... and it is unverified ..." These are all verifable sources.
- No they are not!! You simply don't understand verify at all. The WP:REDFLAG is the part of the WP:Verifiability page you need to read! And look at WP:Undue weight too! You fail on both. These kind of comments need to have a significant amount of verified sources to be appropriated into an encyclopedia. We don't have them, yet we put the word "objectionable" next to the word "offensive"! And the word "offensive" is my particular beef anyway - it's simply too much.
- There are only two refs for "offensive", and neither are verifiable. We simply must have many to use the word "many"! But we only have two for "many" - both non-verified sources. And they are the same refs too (so you can't add up all the '2's!) Where are they all? Where are all the abundant refs I am entitled to expect? We should have many for them all if we are to use these serious words, in this serious context, in this serious article.. -Matt Lewis (talk) 00:38, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- "The sources do not back up 'the Irish government also discourages its usage.' either. ... So we can give the quote." The current edit contains two refernces with quotations:
- "... its use should be thoroughly discouraged" Mary E. Daly, Journal of British Studies 46
- 1947 is too long ago for a government letter to be used in the present tense. It wasn't a statute, and was a completely different government. It is simply deceptive to use it for the the present tense "Irish government disourages its usage" that we use. --Matt Lewis (talk) 00:38, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- "... We would discourage its usage." The Times of London, October 3, 2006
- That is the Embassy spokesman that we use. Does he mean they discourage the gov or all of Ireland? He wasn't clear at all. The intro currently says "the Irish government also discourages its usage." - but who do they discourage? Themselves? Ireland? Again, it is misleading people. They do actually use it from time to time and where are the other refs/proof you would expect? I haven't seen any real world examples. Even Folens stressed that no actual parents complained of their atlas = it was a precautionary change. Why can't we document this without pretending we can justify saying "offensive or objectionable" in the introduction? --Matt Lewis (talk) 00:38, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- "And why are you still hiding behind a dynamic IP? ... I can only assume you are afraid of someonw connected your edits, and a checkuser revealing who you are." Please aquaint yourself with fundamental Wikipedia policy, particulary assume good faith. --62.24.204.7 (talk) 09:21, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- When you hide civility Warnings from your talk page? AGF after that is a bit difficult.--Matt Lewis (talk) 00:38, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- "The actual sources (in plural) do not back-up "objectionable" for 'general people' in a present tense ... " Of the top of my head, here's three:
- If inferring that the word "British" is "offensive" in itself is your fear, than why not just leave it basically in it's shorter, current form but add that it is Ireland's *inclusion* in the term that can offend the Irish, rather than simply saying that the term itself is offensive to them. The type of wording used in this source (Timothy Baycroft & Mark Hewitson What is a Nation? (Oxford, 2006), p. 273) would work, no?: 'The "British Isles", however, does include the island of Ireland, although the adjective "British" used in this context is often found offensive by Irish nationalists.' That certainly doesn’t imply ‘British’ is inherantly offensive. Of course, we can’t plagarize this source, but this sort of way of wording, perhaps? On the ref's page, I count 5 sources (including the one I just quoted) that use offend/offensive, which one's are you dismissing as nationalist? Or are you referring to sources elsewhere? Nuclare (talk) 05:12, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- You are doubling on the same sources for different words if you count as many as 5! --Matt Lewis (talk) 00:38, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not doubling; there are five separate uses there. But, taking a closer look, it didn't register in my earlier search, the 5th is the recorded opinion of a politicican--Scottish rep Denis Canavan. Here's the page. 1)"The British Isles (a term which is itself offensive to Irish Nationalists." John E. Joseph. 2) The "What is a Nation?" one I just mentioned: "...the adjective "British" used in this context is often found offensive by Irish nationalists.' 3) "...we know that some will find certain of our terms offensive. Many Irish object to the term British Isles..." Joseph Ruane. Jennifer Todd. 4) ...the "British Isles"--a term often offensive to Irish sensibilities.' Peter Lambert. 5) --this is the politician one, but, -- "...referred to as a 'Council of the British Isles' by David Trimble. This would cause offense to Irish colleagues." British Irish Inter-Parlimentary Body. Denis Canavan. Nuclare (talk) 02:26, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed there are many many sources to simply put this issue to bed and get on with our lives. The trouble, appears, that a certain Welsh contributor simply doesn't like it. --62.24.204.7 (talk) 09:21, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- "many many"?! It just isn't true. You would "many many" given the way the Introducion goes about things - but you just don't have many many. - you have an awkward, non-veified few. --Matt Lewis (talk) 00:38, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose. Dear heavens! 81.32.182.214 (talk) 00:08, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- Four paragraphs of explanatory fairness really sticks in people's gullet doesn't it? To not be allowed just a small sharp intro with the words "offensive or objectionable"?? Dear heavens! What is the world coming to? We have to use an encyclopedia to explain things?! Dear heavens! Mary - get my gun.. I being told to be fair! I'm being told to explain! Dear heavens - we are doomed!--Matt Lewis (talk) 00:47, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Comment: Matthew, you are clearly losing this argument once again. Please revise your posts and temper your tone. Thank you. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 01:53, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- Could one ask how many times Matt Lewis has lost this argument before? The references are pretty clear, and the introduction should surely be short and sharp and accurate - not a long windy rant. 89.129.142.89 (talk) 01:37, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Discussion
The fourth paragraph on alternative usage and how cartographers seem to be changing is where we actually have all the compelling evidence of the term being unwanted. I support using this (and other facts) rather than keep the intro as short as possible and let it rotate around the word "offensive". I still can't find any non-nationalist use of the word in the present-tense outside of Kearney, who goes on to use the term himself for modern Ireland, and doesn't verify it either. If this article is to remain unlocked, we MUST stop appropriating his word and context (whatever it was) and use the English language to do this fairly. We are an encyclopedia - this is not our own personal book. --Matt Lewis (talk) 16:52, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- The fourth paragraph is the clue to resolving the name inferring the tribulations caused to plenty of Irish people during colonial reign - please move this page to "Britain and Ireland", so that the neutrality prevails, especially since cartographers have an incontestable propensity thereto. (with two users supporting the move I consider a request therefor imminent.) Bogorm (talk) 19:20, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Looks pretty good to me. On the cartography thing, it's worth mentioning that hardly any "Britain and Ireland" maps include the Channel Islands, which means they're not referring the the exact same entity as the British Isles. The use of "Britain and Ireland" could therefore be down to that reason as opposed to any problem with the term "British Isles" itself; if we're saying that mapmakers are actually changing their usage of the term (ie. used to use "British Isles" but now use "Britain and Ireland" instead), we need cast iron references to support that - not just a list of "Britain and Ireland" road maps. Waggers (talk) 19:51, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- Here's one, very explicit reference for starters. It's the National Geographic style guide: 'Great Britain, or Britain, since 1707 has comprised England, Scotland, and Wales. The United Kingdom, formed in 1801, comprises Great Britain plus Northern Ireland; the present Republic of Ireland was included until 1922. The British Isles comprise Great Britain, Ireland, and the adjacent islands, including the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. Be aware that the Irish may object to the name British Isles, even in a strictly geographic sense. The plate in the National Geographic Atlas of the World once titled "British Isles" now reads "Britain and Ireland." (http://stylemanual.ngs.org/intranet/styleman.nsf/Alpha+Summaries%5C-+G+-/$first/?OpenDocument)86.42.119.12 (talk) 22:45, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
What is complicated is that there are not just differently produced political and geographical maps (with the geographical preferring BI), but road maps, which are different as well. Did the ever use British Isles? It's a bit OR, but we could do with a table on maps - showing changes, not just usage. I'm into including the parag, even though I suspect a very slow move away from BI has been going on slowly (and naturally) for years - possibly as the industry has developed. National Geographic changing its BI title to "Britain and Ireland" - but keeping BI in the 'symbolic' map text, is a good example though - It looks like they've made a conscious decision to look at the name, and to compromise. They still print a very old BI map too, which may include the Channel Islands. On top of that, Folens did their precautionary move, based on that one complaint. It's enough for me to have the line on it. --Matt Lewis (talk) 01:28, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose. It's a verbose monstrosity. (This "oppose" is to both the proposed introductions. This comment just got misplaced a little.)81.32.182.214 (talk) 00:05, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- So speaks the IP who removed "may" from the article on the 5th Sept during an edit exchange, knowing damn well that if he did it at that time, the article was guaranteed to be locked. Looks like IP's rule the roost in here to me. --Matt Lewis (talk) 00:56, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, so speaks this IP, who has as much right to express a view as "Matt Lewis", but who had no idea an editing war was underway. Oh, while we're at it "may" is nonsense. It is. 89.129.142.89 (talk) 01:18, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- While we're at it 2, the idea that the reference to "nationalists" in Ireland somehow means that offensiveness of the term is limited to a small number of people is nonsense. For instance the party that is currently the government in ROI, and has been government for a long time describes itself not only as nationalist but Republican. In an Irish context Republican is generally taken as being a more extreme nationalist than any other.89.129.142.89 (talk) 01:30, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Requested move
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
The result of the proposal was speedy close - not moved per WP:SNOW 199.125.109.124 (talk) 01:37, 9 September 2008 (UTC) Note: At 18:54, 7 September 2008 Bogorm (Talk) requested that British Isles be moved to "Britain and Ireland". Explication for the request:
Comment: So, let's get this straight, Narson: You object to "Britain and Ireland" because there are other places in the archipelago that do not fit under Britain and Ireland. Funny, then, that with this logic it never occured to you that a major reason why "British Isles" is inappropriate is because it is including at least one major island, Ireland, which is most certainly not British. Or, wait, are you telling us Irish that we are British? Want to visit Ireland, and tell us that? 86.42.119.12 (talk) 21:19, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
>>>Yes, of course it could be... if you're a complete and utter gobshite and miss the opening line addressed to, well, a different person, for starters. I know, however, that you did not miss that opening line, GoodDay. :-) 86.42.119.12 (talk) 21:35, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Oppose per Waggers. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 22:30, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Should we close?Maybe I'm being pre-mature, but? We seem to have a snowball effect in favour of keeping the article named British Isles. GoodDay (talk) 22:51, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
'Our foes are strong and wise and wary; but, strong and wise and wary as they are, they cannot undo the miracles of God Who ripens in the hearts of young men the seeds sown by the young men of a former generation.... Rulers and Defenders of the Realm had need to be wary if they would guard against such processes. Life springs from death; and from the graves of patriot men and women spring living nations. The Defenders of this Realm have worked well in secret and in the open. They think that they have pacified Ireland. They think that they have purchased half of us and intimidated the other half. They think that they have foreseen everything, think that they have provided against everything; but, the fools, the fools, the fools! — They have left us our Fenian dead, and while Ireland holds these graves, Ireland unfree shall never be at peace.' 86.42.119.12 (talk) 23:02, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Therefore, encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality. The article might cover the same material but with less emotive words, or might cover broader material which helps ensure a neutral view (for example, renaming "Criticisms of drugs" to "Societal views on drugs"). Neutral titles encourage multiple viewpoints and responsible article writing.
Where proper nouns such as names are concerned, disputes may arise over whether a particular name should be used. Wikipedia takes a descriptive rather than prescriptive approach in such cases, by using the common English language name as found in verifiable reliable sources. Where inanimate entities such as geographical features are concerned, the most common name used in English-language publications is generally used. See Wikipedia:Naming conflict for further guidance.
I guess I was premature, calling for closure (see top of section). GoodDay (talk) 18:54, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
|
Proposal
I propose that Talk:British_Isles/References should be a standard link at the top of every talk page (added: attached to this "British Isles" article). I've been reading the archives and came across it. It is easily the most informative list of (primarily academic) references concerning this name that have been collated on a single database. I did not know, for instance, that a letter in 1993 from a man in Athlone to the French channel TV5 resulted in TV5 removing the term Îles Britanniques (British Isles) from all its coverage and replacing it with the French for 'Great Britain and Ireland'. By placing this reference list at the top of every page, readers will have easy access to a wide range of published views on the name. Most people on this talk page are probably currently unaware of this list. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 01:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Agree with myself (it's a good feeling, yes).
- Agree - I was unaware that the French abandoned the POV term "British" Isles nearly 20 years ago. Sarah777 (talk) 01:35, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- But unfortunately they still use it in their Wiki: Îles Britanniques as do the Germans too. I have a propensity towards proposing to rename it in the French and German Wikipedia - if you acceded thereto, you could inform the Francophone Irish community and we could request to rename it on French and German Wiki by underscoring the facts quoted, if it backfires here, ok? Bogorm (talk) 14:56, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- I have no idea what the french wikipedia rules on canvassing are, but I'm not sure we should be gathering support for a move change on annother wiki here. Narson (talk) 15:38, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- There is merit in starting some changes on French/German Wikis. After all, such Wikis often start their articles based on initially translating En Wiki ones, so errors here like "British Isles" get replicated. Also, those Wikis might be more amenable to rational argument and less prone to Anglo-pov in terms of the balance of numbers. Worth considering if it is "legal" by the local rules. Sarah777 (talk) 23:05, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- I have no idea what the french wikipedia rules on canvassing are, but I'm not sure we should be gathering support for a move change on annother wiki here. Narson (talk) 15:38, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- But unfortunately they still use it in their Wiki: Îles Britanniques as do the Germans too. I have a propensity towards proposing to rename it in the French and German Wikipedia - if you acceded thereto, you could inform the Francophone Irish community and we could request to rename it on French and German Wiki by underscoring the facts quoted, if it backfires here, ok? Bogorm (talk) 14:56, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Every talk page? You've got to be kidding, right? Rockpocket 01:49, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Rock, that is picking nits and cheap point-scoring. You know what he means. Are you not ashamed that someone of your weightiness would come down to our level? Sarah777 (talk) 01:54, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- No Sarah. I don't know what he means. Does he means every archive of this talk page (which I would not oppose), does he means every page that mentions British Isles in the title (which I also would not oppose), does he mean any article that mentions British Isles in the text (which I would) or does he mean every talk page (which is what he said, but surely cannot mean)? There is nothing in what he says that distinguishes between these options. Rockpocket 01:59, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Obviously, every talk page attached to this article on the British Isles is the subject. Your alternative meaning was creative, I'll give you that. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 02:26, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- You never can tell, there are all sorts of crazies out there, 86.xx, so its worth being sure exactly what one is agreeing to. My advice to you is to be bold. Adding a link to relevant sources on a relevant talk page can only help inform the discussion. If there is serious opposition to it, someone will likely revert, and then a discussion can be had. Rockpocket 02:52, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Obviously, every talk page attached to this article on the British Isles is the subject. Your alternative meaning was creative, I'll give you that. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 02:26, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- No Sarah. I don't know what he means. Does he means every archive of this talk page (which I would not oppose), does he means every page that mentions British Isles in the title (which I also would not oppose), does he mean any article that mentions British Isles in the text (which I would) or does he mean every talk page (which is what he said, but surely cannot mean)? There is nothing in what he says that distinguishes between these options. Rockpocket 01:59, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Rock, that is picking nits and cheap point-scoring. You know what he means. Are you not ashamed that someone of your weightiness would come down to our level? Sarah777 (talk) 01:54, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
So when did this Talk page turn into a party? I suppose if IP's can get an article locked, we may as well let them run wild. --Matt Lewis (talk) 02:08, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I'll be forced to delete this if it gets out of hand, by the way. Nothing like fun, is there? --Matt Lewis (talk) 02:10, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Don't worry Matt, we'll restore it if you do. Crispness (talk) 06:15, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
OK, then, I just put that references list concerning the name at the top of the page. One of you may know of a better 'notice' symbol or wording than the one I basically copied from above it. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 20:07, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
BBC Article on the Matter
Not sure if this is of interest to those discussing this topic. Though it certainly comes down on the 'pro-British Isles' side (or at least, it asserts the definition in fairly clear terms) it does also give a pretty reasoned and balanced discussion I think of the issues at hand. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7604057.stm (lights touchpaper and walks away...) Pretty Green (talk) 17:34, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- It is very inaccurate. Great Britain + Republic of Ireland + Channel Isles + IoM = British Isles
- Thats not true. Great Britain is not a country, ROI is not the name of a country either. NI seems to not exist and the Channel Islands are not necessarily in the British Isles. What that article has to do with this issue I'm not sure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ThatsGrand (talk • contribs) 17:43, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, voluminous neglect of Northern Ireland, there. So, "England, Scotland, Wales = Great Britain"? OK. And "Northern Ireland + Great Britain = United Kingdom"? OK, too. But "Great Britain + Republic of Ireland + Channel Isles + IoM = British Isles"? (sniggers) --78.152.231.112 (talk) 18:15, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Pretty balanced I think - it illustrates that because England is overwhelming in terms of size in Britain, abroad the idea that Britain = England (and thus Scotland is part of England) is inevitable. Thus describing these islands as "British Isles" inevitably misleads people into believing that Ireland is British. Which is why Wiki should not use the name to include Ireland. Sarah777 (talk) 23:20, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Err, the BBC article says "UK + Republic of Ireland + Channel Isles + IoM = British Isles". Note, that's UK, not GB as you two have read it as. So by using the UK they have included Northern Ireland. (sniggers) Deamon138 (talk) 16:09, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- Err, quite obviously they corrected that error, but then didn't fix the rest. It said GB intially. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.16.215.157 (talk) 16:13, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- Acctually thats a correction to their article, Deamon138. Then again, why we are using the magazine section of the BBC for anything is beyond me. Narson (talk) 16:15, 9 September 2008 (UTC) (EC)
- There are quite a few inaccuracies in that BBC article, including "GB also includes Isle of Wight, Scillies, Hebrides, Orkney and Shetland, but not Isle of Man and Channel Isles" - actually, Great Britain is an island, so does not include other islands. England includes the Isle of Wight, but strictly speaking Great Britain doesn't. But then again, this is the BBC, which is allegedly a reliable source, and Wikipedia is about reliability not truth, so maybe we're all wrong. How depressing. Waggers (talk) 20:59, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- But isn't that the point? These terms are all fleixible??? The sooner the pedants on this article learn that the better. Pretty Green (talk) 09:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Ireland is not in the British Isles (obviously)
^^^On the other hand^^^...Why is Ireland even under this title? Where is the unanimous agreement that Ireland is part of this "British Isles" entity? A quick Google search reveals that there are countless, and I mean countless, sources which exclude Ireland from this "British Isles" thing. Nobody has yet defended why one particular culturally-determined viewpoint- i.e. that of British nationalism- is determining that Ireland is part of the British Isles, when a case can equally be made for its exclusion. Where is the evidence that the current definition is the most common definition? Here are ten websites that specifically exclude Ireland from this "British Isles" entity (I have neither the time nor inclination to spend years posting the rest: the burden of proof lies with those who contend "British Isles" includes Ireland):
- http://www.the-british-isles.com/ (first result on Google after Wikipedia)
- http://www.chelmsfordexpress.co.uk/
- http://www.britishorthodox.org/directory.php
- http://ldsworldtrips.com/britishIsles_072007.html
- http://www.gotthegift.co.uk/index.php/cd/dvd-games/around-britian-dvd-quiz/p_233.html?review=write
- http://bima0.tripod.com/bima/
- http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/uk/05/born_abroad/html/overview.stm
- http://www.walshbrothers.co.uk/Update/zippo_great_britain.htm
- http://www.redbirdacres.net/links.html
- http://www.jmr.nmm.ac.uk/upload/img_400/British-Isles-7-yrs-war_l.jpg
Oh, and here's the Google result for "British Isles and Ireland": http://www.google.ie/search?hl=ga&q=%22british+isles+and+ireland%22&meta (and let's say nothing about all the "British Isles" definitions that admit the politics of the term by being precisely coterminous with the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) 86.42.119.12 (talk) 00:01, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- "I have neither the time nor inclination to spend years posting the rest:" The old "time and inclination" chestnut. You obviously prefer your trolling antics! I notice that you gave us the first entry your Googled "British Isles" -"Ireland" list. But what was the second? This was. And the third? And the fourth? And what do they include when you can be bothered to look into them? Ireland! You are a chump. Oh by the way.. I didn't have the time or inclination to look down any further. But I could guess what was coming (actually I couldn't resist... it's 9 out of the first 10 for a search that excludes the word "Ireland"!! I stopped there.)
- I tell you what. On my next proposal I'll bring in this, combined with some of the history that Waggers asked for. I've starting to wonder if most trolling isn't simply an inability to actually create anything. You can't make a case for exclusion of 'British Isles' in this article's form! These terms that share the same meaning must be targeted to the most commonly-used article, and that article must deal with those other terms (assuming - like this one - they are used).
- You are basing your non-Ireland British-Isles "most popular" assumption against "British Isles" -"and Ireland" (and that only shows up articles that exclude the words "and Ireland"). But it still shows up more than your "British Isles and Ireland".--Matt Lewis (talk) 01:59, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
May
The term may in "The term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland,[4] where many people may[5] find the term offensive or objectionable" should be removed. Its predictive; we should be descriptive. We are not a wikitravel, our job is not to describe what a reader may find there. If that is not what is meant, then the term is redundant, because either "many people" find it or offensive or they don't. Either way, it shouldn't be there. If there are no objections I will remove it. Rockpocket 01:16, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- The word "may" is weasel wording. Ditch it quick.89.129.142.89 (talk) 01:41, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- Lose "people" too. Unless the dogs and cats are the ones who find it offensive it is safe to say that "many" would mean "people". 199.125.109.124 (talk) 03:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- The word "may" is weasel wording. Ditch it quick.89.129.142.89 (talk) 01:41, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
And in the interests of balance and accuracy, we should also say that many don't find it offensive - backing this up with quotations from government ministers using it (Sile de Valera), and its use in Irish parliamentary reports, for example. ðarkuncoll 08:05, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- Except the fact of occasional usage is not the same as evidence that many don't find it offensive. Also, from reading the dispute page it's also clear that when Irish parliamentary reports use the term they often use it in a way that excludes Ireland, or at least ROI. 81.32.182.214 (talk) 13:24, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- I'm tempted to put forward an totally unwieldy proposal that is actually balanced in this kind of way, simply to force people into taking my considered proposals seriously! We could present a fully detailed ref list (using lots of bold of course) for each one of theirs, and insist on presenting the positive first, per MOS:"many Irish use the term[r], and many find it uniting[r] [4], but many may find it offensive or objectionable[r]. The Irish government has discouraged its usage, though the spokesman did not specify who they are discouraging[r]; there are examples of them using it themselves,[r] and in 1999 a British Irish Council was formed in London which gave constitutional recognition to the British Isles.[r]" We only need a couple of examples to match theirs, and we can fill the talk page with cries of "many many many"! Turn your nose up at every course and what do you end up with? Fish heads.--Matt Lewis (talk) 10:32, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- Speaking of the obfuscation of simple proposals with unwieldy comments, its not clear whether you actually object to this or not. Rockpocket 18:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- Could this new unwieldy proposal be more unwieldy than the proposals above? In any case, the interesting fact for most readers is that the term is controversial in the first place. That's often new information for readers. Interestingness is a good criteria for inclusion in the introduction. 81.32.182.214 (talk) 13:30, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- Speaking of the obfuscation of simple proposals with unwieldy comments, its not clear whether you actually object to this or not. Rockpocket 18:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
" a British Irish Council was formed in London which gave constitutional recognition to the British Isles. It isn't called the 'British Isles' by the Council, so I'm confused by what you mean here. If anything the fact that there is a institution exactly contiguous with the 'BI' but which chose rather consciously *not* to use "BI" seems to reinforce the idea that "BI" is an unacceptable name, if anything. Or what are you trying to say here? It is also a distinct possiblity that the reason the spokesman didn't specify who they discourage is because it was a general discouragement to *everyone*. Who would he specify?? And has anyone got a Irish govt official using the term "BI" in the last couple years (since the Dail comments on the issue)? That's a sincere request for sources, if they are out there. Nuclare (talk) 11:19, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
"May" was inserted as a compromise. If its coming out, then it should be changed to "some" find it offensive - or better still, a form of words should be used that avoids putting a number on how many find the term offensive, unless it is sourced. At present, it isn't.
Anon IP - only last week I posted examples of FF TDs and Senators using the term in the Dáil specifically including Ireland within BI. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 14:41, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- A quick look at the history of the naming dispute page shows that such examples, and examples of usage in the Irish parliament that excludes Ireland have been there for a long time. It's still entirely beside the point of "many" or "may". If you are not offended but others are offended then an example of your use is no proof of anything about others. Similarly, my point about the description "nationalists" being incorrectly used to argue that only a small number find the term offensive is still valid. You can't present "nationalists" as being a minority in a country where the main political party describes itself as Republican, whether or not you can find occasional use by members of that party. To do so would be a logical nonsense, apart from being OR. Meantime "many" is well supported by reference. There seems to be lots of IDONTLIKE it about that fact, much as there is lots of IDONTLIKEIT about the fact that the term is in common international use. 89.129.143.43 (talk) 01:32, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- "May" is a pretty poor compromise, since it informs nothing about the number of people at all. If we need a term to deal with the number issue, then lets do that. "May" doesn't. For example, if the point is that a number or proportion (of unknown size) of Irish people find it offensive and a number or proportion (of unknown size) don't, then simply say: ""The term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland,[4] where a proportion/number of people [5] find the term offensive or objectionable". This seems to be most neutral way of presenting the facts, without attempting to be quantitative. Rockpocket 18:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- If you go by the number of refs they have you may as well un-bracket "5"!
- I've tried things like "have found" and have been told that it makes it look like its only in the past!. The proportion isn't unknown to us - we would expect many sources to be around if "many" people were offended and objecting to it. Instead we have many sources of people using the term, and a clutch of negative refs compiled over months.
- It's not just the lack of evidence, the evidence itself (esp the 'no complaints, but precautionary removal' Folens example) shows us that it's not as significant as the rather loaded term, "a number of people" would wrongly suggest to readers that it is. That is surely as ambiguous a compromise as "may" - but a lot more weighty, imo.
- Evidence permitted, the logical thing to say is "where people can find it offensive or objectionable." but it would be outrageous abuse of completely unverified and far too-finite refs for us to do that. So we are trading weasel words. We need to use other language altogether to deal with this - not appropriate words from the unverified context of a couple of selected authors. --Matt Lewis (talk) 20:47, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- My understanding of a "a number of people" or "a proportion of people" is that it means exactly what it says. That number my be a handful or may be millions, the proportion may be tiny or may be large. Neither is implied. By avoiding adding a quantitative value to the number or proportion removes any implication, unlike "many" or "few". If I understand you right, your argument is one of due weight: that those that find it objectionable are insignificant enough for it not be be mentioned in the lead. That may be so, I really don't know. But for as long as the sentence is there, it should couched in better terms than it currently is. Also, "where people can find it offensive or objectionable" is either redundantly meaningless or grammatically incorrect. People can find it objectionable anywhere, so why should we single Ireland out? The point is that, according to the sources presented, an undefined proportion of people do find it objectionable in Ireland. "Can find it" and "do find it" do not mean the same thing. Rockpocket 23:16, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- According to the sources presented, many do find it objectionable or offensive. No source is presented to demonstrate that many don't find it objectionable or offensive. If such is the case then sources must be provided. It's not sufficiently obvious to stand without sources. Similarly, "may" is an unsupported weasel word. On the basis of the sources it's not "may" it's "do". 89.129.143.43 (talk) 01:36, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- My understanding of a "a number of people" or "a proportion of people" is that it means exactly what it says. That number my be a handful or may be millions, the proportion may be tiny or may be large. Neither is implied. By avoiding adding a quantitative value to the number or proportion removes any implication, unlike "many" or "few". If I understand you right, your argument is one of due weight: that those that find it objectionable are insignificant enough for it not be be mentioned in the lead. That may be so, I really don't know. But for as long as the sentence is there, it should couched in better terms than it currently is. Also, "where people can find it offensive or objectionable" is either redundantly meaningless or grammatically incorrect. People can find it objectionable anywhere, so why should we single Ireland out? The point is that, according to the sources presented, an undefined proportion of people do find it objectionable in Ireland. "Can find it" and "do find it" do not mean the same thing. Rockpocket 23:16, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- Evidence permitted, the logical thing to say is "where people can find it offensive or objectionable." but it would be outrageous abuse of completely unverified and far too-finite refs for us to do that. So we are trading weasel words. We need to use other language altogether to deal with this - not appropriate words from the unverified context of a couple of selected authors. --Matt Lewis (talk) 20:47, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- The problem is clearly that you are joining this without seeing all recurring dialogue over the last 6 months or so: Nobody wants the word "may"! The problem is that it's the only thing a group of editors have allowed to temper the "objectionable and offensive" line - hence why I (and others) replace it when it is plucked out. It's to stop the intro from being even worse. Replacing it is the only edit I'm ever allowed to make on this part of the artice - and even that can lead to the article getting locked again when it only been open to edits for a week or two!
- This chat is a distraction by a couple of IPS's - it's been over and over, and only new words will make it right. We have to stick to proposals: the article locking admin always asks to see 'consensus' before it is unlocked (which, if you look back, I have many sour opinions about, given the "over my dead body" environment in here regarding changing the lead. There has been an endless lock-on-previous cycle that has kept this lead in place for probably all year. One edit inevitable exchange happens, and an IP and a sock come from nowhere, and its locked again - its that easy for them to the article they want. This place is were a jovial quote of that "there's no wrong edit to lock an article on" essay is truly painful to behold. --Matt Lewis (talk) 01:42, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- You see, all I can see is a few editors arguing that their personal view is to be believed rather than references. Many is in the references, not some or few or most or almost all or a majority or nearly everyone or just a few nuts, but simply many. Offensive and objectionable are both in the references, not other words but those ones. The issue, as far as I can see, is that there are people who want to put weasel words in the article because THEYDONTLIKEIT. Arguments based purely on IDONTLIKEIT deserve no respect in Wikipedia. 89.129.143.43 (talk) 01:51, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- This chat is a distraction by a couple of IPS's - it's been over and over, and only new words will make it right. We have to stick to proposals: the article locking admin always asks to see 'consensus' before it is unlocked (which, if you look back, I have many sour opinions about, given the "over my dead body" environment in here regarding changing the lead. There has been an endless lock-on-previous cycle that has kept this lead in place for probably all year. One edit inevitable exchange happens, and an IP and a sock come from nowhere, and its locked again - its that easy for them to the article they want. This place is were a jovial quote of that "there's no wrong edit to lock an article on" essay is truly painful to behold. --Matt Lewis (talk) 01:42, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- Remove - "may" is used as a weasel word - not to mention that it is meaningless in the context: In what sense do we mean "may" 1) that many "possibly" find the term offensive; 2) that many "are allowed to" find the term offensive or objectionable; or 3) that many "are wished to" find the term offensive. (2) and (3) are ridiculous and (1) is not the kind of speculation that this encyclopedia engages in - not ever, never mind when there are at least three references that use the words "many" and "objectionable" in the same sentence and goodness knows how many more supporting references for the matter generally. It is a fact: "many" find the term "objectionable". There is no need to labour the point, dwell upon it, or give it undue weight - but it is an injustice to this encyclopedia to disguise it in order to mollify the sensibilities of the few that for whatever reason would deny it. ("Offensive" is OTT, however.) --78.152.249.77 (talk) 22:29, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- Only if we also point out that many don't find it objectionable. To state one without the other gives Undue Weight to a particular opinion. ðarkuncoll 23:02, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- Why, pray tell, is "offensive" "over the top"? It is not. I do not merely object to people assuming I am British because of this "British Isles" claim: I am unequivocally offended by that assumption. Do you really think Irish people should not be offended at being thought of as British, the culture which has persecuted so many nations, including our own? You may feel it is "ott", but the sources support offensive. And there is centuries of offense (to put it mildly) in what the British state has been doing in Ireland since 1603. It is absurd that we must defend our Irishness against you people. We are Irish, not British. When will your fanatically imperialist British culture just leave the Irish people alone, and accept their right to reject your nationalist political projects like the propagation of Britishness? And you do have a fanatically imperialist culture, unless you are all denying your state's extraordinary history, in world terms, for the past few centuries. I am offended to be associated with that barbarism and abject inhumanity: deeply offended. I really do hope that I have made myself impeccably clear. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 00:40, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Someone call Dave Souza again. He sorted this out last time and his proposal got consensus at something like 11-1. In any case, "may" is not supported by verifiable sources whereas "Many" is supported by verifiable sources. The dissenter the last time was, unless I'm mistaken, Matt Lewis - who has been maintaining this war for months now, apparently purely on the basis of HEDOESNTLIKEIT. Surely this counts as disruption? 89.129.143.43 (talk) 01:23, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- Dave Souza supported my own original proposal! Someone made a usurping poll out of a comment of his (originally mistaken), and I had reisgned by the time it went to vote - and you were still slagging me off after I had gone (in your actual account). It was a vote for No Change from the usual suspects, including at least one sockpuppet, and at least two editors voting just to get closure and the article unlocked again. Dave Souza hiself didn't vote (I wonder why?). --Matt Lewis (talk) 11:05, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- Wikipéire talking to Watapalava - how sweet! (and how easily proven too). Only in this article. Wotapalaver - you not logging in makes you the biggest coward on Wikipedia. Really - what a coward you are. You've cowered away ever since I wrote that. The amount of time you say my full name as an IP is painfully pathetic to read - but then your were 'crossing the line' with my name just a 'tad' when you chose to log in though. Get aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa life.--Matt Lewis (talk) 02:10, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- I believe that calling other editors cowards is a violation of Wikipedia policy. Also, your idea that an editor would cower away because you wrote a comment on their talk page is eye-opening. 89.129.143.60 (talk) 10:23, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- Matthew, must you insist upon this extraordinary paranoia each time you don't like what Irish people have to say on this topic? A quick perusal of your edit history reveals that you are traversing numerous talk pages belonging to wikipedia editors expressing this paranoia about a wide array of editors (in between referring to editors as "chumps", etc.). Do you not think your actions are all just a bit OCD? Deep breath, disengage. Have a pint. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 03:53, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- 86.xx. Whether you are offended is entirely irrelevant. If you continue to couch your arguments on this page in terms of your personal distaste of being considered "British" then I will begin to delete your comments, because the are entirely unhelpful. This is not a forum, stop using it as one. Mat and 86.xx - how many times do you have to be told to quit the personal attacks? Despite the claims and counterclaims, on current evidence you are both, quite frankly, as bad as each other. If you are not able to discuss the content without soapboxing or trading insults then I'll make moves to have you both put on a probation and restricted from this page. C'mon guys, pull it together.
- I'm going to repeat my suggestion: if the number of people who do and do not find it objectionable is the problem then use language that is non-quantitative. This is the obvious way to ensure neutrality and balance without misrepresenting sources. Is anyone able to look past their entrenched positions on this issue or are we going to continue going round in circles? Rockpocket 04:59, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- But your non-quantitive suggestion seemed more suggestive (even conclusive) than the word "many" itself. I don't want to be told I'm as bad as a socking IP! It's not my fault this page has got like it has - I've done nothing but try and work on it in the face of this. It's bean treated appallingly by editors an admin alike if you ask me. If you want more evidence you will have to read upwards. Have you read the last proposal? What do you think of it? I'll keep off this page until I improve on it per suggestions - I'm not going to risk being sectioned! If you read all my prosals I am anything but entrenched. What I've always done is compromise fairness in the most positive may I can, as fairness itself has simply not been allowed in here. --Matt Lewis (talk) 10:34, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- The number of people who find it offensive/objectionable has been described in verifiable sources as "many". IIRC, in other sources the phrase "often" was used. There is no further problem and avoiding the words used in verifiable sources would certainly qualify and misrepresenting the sources, and as counter to correct editing. 89.129.143.60 (talk) 10:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps it is time, as attempted before, to start a formal process on this. This ongoing rejection of verifiable and highly reputable sources is tedious, to say the least. The last time we started a formal process we got to consensus pretty fast. Suddenly the people with personal views and no references seemed to fade away. 89.129.143.60 (talk) 10:38, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed, Rockpocket. We have two references for "many" there, and they both say many "object" - nothing about "offense". Neither reference indicates where exactly they're getting their facts from. In the absence of real data, non-quantitative wording is the way to go. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 14:05, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- We have non-quantitive wording in "many". "Many" does not imply a majority e.g. "many books on Amazon cost over €30 but most cost less than that." This is in part what is so wrong about using "may" in that context - what does it mean? "A large number might find it offensive (depending on their mood)" or "it might be that a large number find it offensive"? "Many" by itself is pulled directly from the refs and no more about it that what is known - a large undetermined number find the term objectionable. (Again, "offensive" s unsupported and should be removed IMHO). --Ip user account (talk) 22:22, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- This seems reasonable. However the problem with "many" is that it implies relative quantity ("many" is typically more than "few" but less than "most", for example). So it is perhaps more correct to say it semi-quantitative, rather than non-quantitative. The further problem is is not likely to be quantified: someone decided that "many" object without ever actually ascertaining how "many" that is (because if they had, they would have told us instead of using the word "many"!) In other words, it is an impression (though, perhaps a very educated one), rather than a cold, hard fact. The question then is how reliable are the source(s) that use many? Are they sufficiently authoritative and neutral to use their "many" without qualification? If so, then, then great. If not, then "many" can still be used, but should probably be attributed (i.e. "term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland, where according to X, many people find the term objectionable"). This should be balanced up if we are serious about having a balanced, and nuanced, article. Rockpocket 02:14, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- But do you have an opinion on the sources, Rockpocket, in relation to this issue? Both those at the BI page and at the Refs page? Nuclare (talk) 05:29, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- I have a read though of all the sources and I would say that there are multiple independent sources, with no obvious bias, that use the term "many". However... there are also multiple independent sources, with no obvious bias, that use the term "some," and others that claim "The Irish" or "Irishmen" find it objectionable (clearly meant as a generalization). Others still document that "Irish Historians" or "Irish Nationalists" object to the British Isles, though these groups are mentioned in context, and presumably not meant to be exclusive. None of them strike me a so authoritative as to give one significant weight over the others. So, if the argument is that "many" is sourced (and it certainly is), then one could also easily replace it with "some" or "Irish Nationalists" and provide multiple, reliable sources to back it up. Taking all that into account, I would still recommend the use of entirely non-quantitative language ("a number" or "a proportion" of Irish people...) which can be justified by all these sources without bias or prejudice. As far as I can tell, that is the only solution that does not result in the cherry-picking of sources to justify a particular POV preference. Rockpocket 17:18, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- But do you have an opinion on the sources, Rockpocket, in relation to this issue? Both those at the BI page and at the Refs page? Nuclare (talk) 05:29, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- This seems reasonable. However the problem with "many" is that it implies relative quantity ("many" is typically more than "few" but less than "most", for example). So it is perhaps more correct to say it semi-quantitative, rather than non-quantitative. The further problem is is not likely to be quantified: someone decided that "many" object without ever actually ascertaining how "many" that is (because if they had, they would have told us instead of using the word "many"!) In other words, it is an impression (though, perhaps a very educated one), rather than a cold, hard fact. The question then is how reliable are the source(s) that use many? Are they sufficiently authoritative and neutral to use their "many" without qualification? If so, then, then great. If not, then "many" can still be used, but should probably be attributed (i.e. "term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland, where according to X, many people find the term objectionable"). This should be balanced up if we are serious about having a balanced, and nuanced, article. Rockpocket 02:14, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- We have non-quantitive wording in "many". "Many" does not imply a majority e.g. "many books on Amazon cost over €30 but most cost less than that." This is in part what is so wrong about using "may" in that context - what does it mean? "A large number might find it offensive (depending on their mood)" or "it might be that a large number find it offensive"? "Many" by itself is pulled directly from the refs and no more about it that what is known - a large undetermined number find the term objectionable. (Again, "offensive" s unsupported and should be removed IMHO). --Ip user account (talk) 22:22, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- I've read the sources too. "Many" regard it as objectionable or offensive. "Some" regard it as less appropriate or "not an easy term to accept". We could put both of those in. "...many regard the term as objectionable or offensive, while some only regard it as less than appropriate or not an easy term to accept". Cool. That way we respect even more of the sources. 81.32.182.214 (talk) 18:09, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- At the outset let me say that I have no problem with dumping "offensive" and just using a broader term that would take in everyone from the deeply offended to the slightly annoyed: "...where many object to the term," for example. There's just something about the wording "a number" or "a proportion of" that doesn't sound right. They're as weaselly as 'may.' "A number" has the vibe of something you could count on your fingers and 'a proportion' is soooo vague as to be almost meaningless. If one looks in detail at the 'some' sources, they don't actually refer directly to Ireland in the same way most of the "many" ones do: 1) "However, like other such terms it is probably not an easy term to accept for some who inhabit one or other part of these islands (particularly Ireland)" This 'some' does refer to Ireland, but it is also doubling for 'other part of these islands' as well. The "particularly Ireland" comment implies that whatever is meant by "some," Ireland's "some" has to be significantly higher than the other parts, rendering "some" incredibly broad and vague here. 2) "...once most of the island of Ireland became the independent Republic of Ireland it seemed to some no longer appropriate." This doesn't even refer to the Irish. It's a general comment that would be referring to anyone anywhere approaching the subject. 3) "Since the early twentieth century, that nomenclature has been regarded by some as increasingly less usable.". Again, the Irish aren't even mentioned here. 4) "The very concept of 'the British Isles' is rejected by some Irish historians." This does refer to the Irish, but specifically historians. 4) "Geographical terms also cause problems and we know that some will find certain of our terms offensive. Many Irish object to the term the 'British Isles'" Another example where "some" is being used more broadly without reference to the Irish. But when the Irish are specified, they switch to "many." Nuclare (talk) 12:34, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
In reply to Nuclare asking for example of the term being used in the Dáil recently, there are (to use a word we love) many examples - see here for Google results. It has to be said that many (to use the word again) are examples of our esteemed deputies objecting to the term. Indeed the exchange recorded in the first of them could have been lifted from this very page. --Ip user account (talk) 22:35, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- I see from that "recent" example that a 'Mr Donegan' used the term "British Isles" in 1968. Surely this was not Paddy "Thundering Disgrace" Donegan, a man who makes Margaret Thatcher seem like a communist? My instinct was right about the sort of people who use this term. Meanwhile I see recently, in 2007: 'The Minister for Education and Science could also come to the Chamber to update Members as to why maps provided in primary schools currently include Ireland in the British Isles.' And Enda Kenny's clear definition of "British Isles" in 2007: 'If Great Britain intends to have an electronic border around the British Isles, Scotland, England and Wales, what does that mean in terms of entry to Northern Ireland from Great Britain?' My favourite one comes from 10 October 2007 when a Senator said: 'Many parts of the British Isles,including the North and South of Ireland, could reap dividends from this.' The immediate response from an undisclosed number of Senators was: 'The British Isles?' hehe. And not even an election in sight. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 03:24, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- Actually what I was looking for were govt officials, as distinct from 'ordinary' members of the Dail. And more specifically uses after D.Ahern (Sept. '05) made his comments in the Dail saying that the govt doesn't use the term. If that search you've posted is exhaustive (do we think it pulls up all uses??), in terms of Dail use, looks like it's pulling up 8 uses of BI in the Dail since Sept. '05, one of which is members immediately questioning why the term was used, one more is a statement of someone who doesn't think maps should show Ireland as part of the BI, 2 more are uses where BI is being used as something distinct from Ireland, one more is someone using the term only as part of the naming of an organization, and one more is used by a guest speaker rather than a Dail member. So, that leaves two uses by two (non-govt) Dail members since Sept. 2005 (one of which was immediately found questionable by some fellow members). Well, at least that's what that search is accessing. Nuclare (talk) 05:14, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
This is all well and good, but completely irrelevant. Even if everyone in the RoI stopped using the term (which they haven't), they would still be vastly outnumbered by the population of the UK - by about 15 to 1. If 94% of the people who live in a place call it by a particular name, then that's its name. ðarkuncoll 07:15, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- Unless you live in Daingean Uí Chúis. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 11:40, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- My, do we like distorting reality to suit an agenda. Seeing as he has brought it up, User:Bastun omits the minor matter that most people in An Daingean were not allowed to vote in that above alluded to plebiscite as the 1946 Local Government Act defined the town as extending to a single townland and in the process forbade two-thirds of the present town a right to vote. Ooops.. Oh, and the leaders of the 'Dingle' campaign happen to have been outsiders, to be more specific blow-ins from Clare and Roscommon, among other places. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good old-fashioned anti-Irish prejudice, of course. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 20:43, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- For Bastun, who counts only two examples of "many" finding the term "offensive". At least one example on the references page says that it is "often" offensive. Is "often" more or less than "many" or are they roughly equivalent? Other examples say the term is "grating" and "almost unsayable" (paraphrases, not exact quotes), and indicate beyond argument that "many" is a neutral and accurate word. The Dail and Senate exchanges linked are also illustrative. 1952, 1968, etc., with phrases like "what was one time known as the British Isles", "we are not in the British Isles", plus the comments recorded only as the Senate reacting to the very use of the term with disdain are all significant. Again, people may not like that the term is regarded as offensive/objectionable by many people in Ireland, but it is - and the references unambiguously support this. 81.32.182.214 (talk) 13:31, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- So if being more vague is not accepted, why not be more precise? The term British Isles has been rejected by the Irish legislature in the past as <insert what they thought of it>, a view that is also seen <in parts of Ireland/in the wider community/Whatever>? Personally I've no objective to many or some or groups within Ireland. --Narson ~ Talk • 10:40, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- Because if we make the intro longer certain editors will scream that the issue is being given too much importance. Currently the intro is short and precise and supported by reference except for the weasel word "may", which is neither precise nor supported by reference. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 13:10, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
British Isles used in Italian schools
Archived per WP:FORUM. Please people, lets keep this page focused on improving the article. If you wish to discuss Britain and Ireland in general with other Wikipedians, use IRC #wikipedia |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
My children attend school here in Italy and the term British Isles is used to describe the islands comprising Great Britain, Ireland, and the Shetlands, Scilly Isles, etc.The geography books also use the term. Honestly, I'm about three-quarters Irish by blood, and I've never understood the fuss over a name that happens to be the correct usage internationally. Why do so many people neact like Pavlov's dogs anytime the word British appears? The original inhabitants of Ireland and Britain were the some exact race, by the way.--jeanne (talk) 09:17, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Funny! I wonder where that quote is again about how all maps at the time were political. 81.32.182.214 (talk) 18:09, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
NOT A FORUM - "The new edition cites it from Dee in 1577." Out of the frying pan and into the fire, then eh? Does this discussion have anything to add to the article? Or is it simply an opportunity for some anti-Americanism on behalf of 86.42.119.12, some obsessive hand-wringing on behalf of Matt Lewis and an ill-informed history lesson on behalf of TharkunColl? Thank you, jeanne, for your contribution, but Wikipedia is not a forum. Can a administrator please start observing this discussion page and remove contributions to it that are discussion like. We need to get a lid on this. It has been allowed to run out of control for far too long. --78.152.255.89 (talk) 20:30, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
|
Pretanic Islands and Britanniae
The earliest known names for the islands come from copies of ancient Greek writings.
These texts may have been used as a source by later writers but it is a simple fact that there are no originals and there are no copies.
Ancient Greek refers to a period until 146 BC. This is different to people who wrote in greek such as Ptolemy, a Roman citizen, born and bred in Roman Egypt. Indeed all the greek terms in the article, Ρρεττανοι, Πρετανικαι νησοι etc originate from the Roman Empire.
When the protection is lifted I propose the above sentence is reworded.
The earliest known names for the islands come from Roman writings Lucian Sunday (talk) 23:24, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- Roman writings in Greek. So, when you say 146 BC as the end point for "Ancient Greek", do you mean January 1st or December 31st? Or indeed, a date inbetween? We need to know this so as to be able to correct the tens of thousands of articles that presumably make this idiotic and totally unforgivable blunder. ðarkuncoll 23:31, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- I believe the years used to start in March? Anyway, I was foolish enough to use wikipedia Ancient Greece as my source. Lucian Sunday (talk) 23:36, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- And according to the article the Greeks/Romans included Iceland and/or western Norway, possibly also the Friesian Islands in their descriptions so the ancient term doesn't map onto the modern term exactly. Then, after the Romans, there was a gap of about 1500 years before the term was resurrected during the period of the Tudor conquest of Ireland. As Nicholas Canny puts it in his book, the term is "politically loaded". 89.129.143.60 (talk) 12:05, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- The Romans included Thule in the BI, but there's no evidence this meant Iceland at the time - and the inclusion of this factoid in the article is another example of how it has been derailed to suit that anti-BI brigade. It could have meant the Shetlands. It later times its meaning changed, but this was much, much later. The term BI in Latin was resurrected in the early 16th century, long before the Tudor reconquest of Ireland, and by Europeans with no pro-English motivations. ðarkuncoll 12:21, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
(point of order) - Lucian Sunday, propose away. The article can still be edited while it's protected. Make a proposal here on the talk page, and if there's consensus I (or another admin) will make the change. Waggers (talk) 12:12, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- "The Romans included Thule in the BI, but there's no evidence this meant Iceland at the time ..." Six days sailing north of Britain and close to the Arctic circle, according to Strabbo. You're right, they could have meant Norway. "... inclusion of this factoid ..." Don't want the history of the term discussed - or the history discussed only on your terms?
- Back onto topic, this seems like a minor, matter-of-fact change - even if some dislike accuracy being added to the article. (different IP user to the one above) --78.152.255.20 (talk) 18:25, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- Don't the earliest names come from copies of Ancient Greek writings? Pytheas etc.? Correct me if I'm wrong. 81.32.182.214 (talk) 14:04, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- Pytheas's work no longer exists. From Pytheas#Notes Strabo, like Diodorus Siculus, quotes Pytheas through Poseidonius.
- Lucian Sunday (talk) 09:10, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
<deident>While I've no objection to the change, I should point out that ancient Greek is different to Ancient Greeks (As highlighted by the original poster having to pipe his link for Ancient Greek to Ancient Greece). --Narson ~ Talk • 10:44, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed, I should explain that I piped the link Ancient Greek (Ancient Greece) as the current version does this. According to WP Ancient Greek refers to a period until 301 BC. Lucian Sunday (talk) 11:45, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
@Lucian, I realise Pytheas' work no longer exists, but what do we then call the works derived therefrom? Copies may not be the best word. What is? Derivative works? 79.155.245.81 (talk) 12:44, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- This article section is an example of how The wiki article could be phrased (as well as providing some insight on Wonky Scotland!. Lucian Sunday (talk) 19:37, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- I knew about the reason for wonky Scotland, but where does that article give an example of suitable phrasing? 79.155.245.81 (talk) 10:41, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Shelta spoken in America
The article states that there are 86,000 Shelta speakers worldwide, mainly in America. The article does not give any more details nor does he cite that assertion. I did not realise there were so many Irish Travellers who had immigrated to America.--jeanne (talk) 13:40, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- If there's no reference then either have a look for one yourself, or tag the content with "citation needed" then come back in a week or two and delete it if no-one has given a reference to support the content. 81.32.182.214 (talk) 14:06, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- I have found a reference. It is www.christusrex.com/www1/pater/JPN-Shelta.html When the page is no longer under protection, I shall add it.--jeanne (talk) 07:03, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- Ethnologue is the usual "ready-made" citation for these kind of things. 86,000 is cited in their entry for Shelta. --89.19.91.84 (talk) 18:43, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- Ethnologue says 86k speakers with 6k in Ireland and the rest in the UK and USA. It doesn't say that they're "mainly" in the USA. The majority may be in the UK, no? The other site doesn't open for me. I get a page not found error. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 12:43, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- I find it hard to believe so many Irish Travellers are in America. It's more likely they are in the UK.--jeanne (talk) 19:52, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- As above, it doesn't matter what you find hard to believe. According to http://www.language-museum.com/s/shelta.php there are 50k Shelta speakers in the USA, 30k in the UK, 6k in Ireland. Same statistic is shown on the www.christusrex.com site. I can't speak to the reliability of either of those sites. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 08:10, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- I find it hard to believe because the article on the Irish Travellers fails to mention the presence of so many in America. This article also fails to do so. Therefore, one must question the reliability of the sites you have listed. Note I said question not deny.--jeanne (talk) 08:17, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- I don't vouch for the reliability of the sites I mentioned. I don't know anything about them. My only point was that your beliefs are unimportant compared to references. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 10:39, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Point taken.--jeanne (talk) 13:38, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Edit warring 2
I came to look at this page to find it was blocked becarse of edit warring. What is there to war about???92.4.245.131 (talk) 17:45, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- <Soapboxing removed, I did warn you 88.xx> The edit warring is largely over disagreements over the use of the term "British Isles" in relation to Ireland
(the state). Rockpocket 22:17, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- Rockpocket: You are mistaken to view it as an objection just to its use over the state, Ireland. The term British Isles is at least as rejected in the hills of Mullaghbawn, Ballycastle, and Coalisland, to take a quick handful. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 22:53, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- Fine, whatever. The point is the edit-warring is over the article, not the actual Irish/British conflict. Rockpocket 00:35, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- Rockpocket: You are mistaken to view it as an objection just to its use over the state, Ireland. The term British Isles is at least as rejected in the hills of Mullaghbawn, Ballycastle, and Coalisland, to take a quick handful. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 22:53, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- Let us not forget that the Irish Republic only covers part of Ireland, and was gerrymandered to exclude those elements of the Irish population who favoured continued union. In short, it's an illegitimate state (insofar at it claims to represent Ireland). Be that as it may, it can do nothing to affect how the English language is used worldwide, and indeed in the British Isles, because no government can legislate for language. ðarkuncoll 23:08, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- Have you ever read any reliable history books Tharky? --Snowded TALK 23:30, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sure you have but let's start with this, seeing as you have chosen to digress. The Irish Republic covers all of Ireland (even if its realisation is currently on hold) whereas the Republic of Ireland does not cover the whole country. If you cannot get the basics correct, what hope is there for your more substantive views? Views, such as the matter of gerrymandering, which was in fact done by servants of the British state in alliance with the Unionists without any reference to the majority population of Ireland, whose representatives refused to take part in the partition of their country. This is basic. As for your most peculiar view of the English language as stagnant, I've read the English language at various times in its history and, as shocking as it clearly is for you, there have been enormous changes in that language. Words change, meanings change, usage begins, usage declines. Shocking, eh. But a quaint little idea of yours at any rate. P.S. Concerning your belief that a government is unable to legislate for language, I think you'll find that various British governments in Ireland have done precisely that. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 23:48, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- I am fully aware of the distinction you are trying to foist on the rest of the world between "Irish Republic" and "Republic of Ireland" - I simply regard it as risible, considering that the two phrases have been interchangeable in English for decades. And yes, I also know full well that the gerrymandering was done at the behest of the Unionists, and that Southern Ireland was therefore gerrymandered by default - but this doesn't mean it wasn't gerrymandered though. And not once have I ever said that the English language is stagnant. Meanings can and do change. In this particular case, however, that of the British Isles, no meaning has changed - just consult any dictionary. As for governments legislating for language - if the Irish government sent an armed force to any area that was using a phrase it wanted to change then it might be able to legislate for language. But it doesn't, so it can't. ðarkuncoll 07:46, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- 'the distinction you are trying to foist on the rest of the world between "Irish Republic" and "Republic of Ireland" - I simply regard it as risible, considering that the two phrases have been interchangeable in English for decades' -hilarious. So now the 'interchangeability' of use between people who are, as a matter of fact, utterly ignorant and misinformed is to be favoured over an accurate command of the Queen's English? I thought-nay, I hoped- that this sort of anti-intellectualism in English political culture died with the iconclasts of the seventeenth-century British Taliban. Alas. Your entire approach to Irish-related terminology on Wikipedia appears strongly to be based on WP: I Don't Like It, rather than on an acceptance of realities in Ireland. If the contrived terminology used by British nationalists such as you (as opposed to open-minded, confident and intelligent Englishmen like Tony Benn) were to determine accurate use of English on wikipedia, wikipedia would not last as anything other than a British version of Stormfront. The new Irish article would be titled 'Eire' and would be permeated by little Punch portrayals of Irish people. It's 2008, not 1848. Get over your loss of empire and grow up. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 23:44, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- I note that User:TharkunColl is again going around wikipedia imposing "British Isles" into articles just to make a political point- such as here.86.42.119.12 (talk) 00:04, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- You are wrong. To impose something implies it is not welcome, and I have no political point to make whatsoever - indeed, I am opposed to political insertions or exclusions. And in any case, in the above example I was merely reverting a politically motivated removal of the term. ðarkuncoll 07:46, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Well the travesty of history above clearly indicates a political POV --Snowded TALK 00:08, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- On the contrary. It is political POVism that I have been editing against all this time. ðarkuncoll 07:49, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- Tharky, have you ever read M:MPOV. Sort of fits doesn't it. Have you heard the one about the proud mother watching her son's passing out parade, who exclaimed "Look, they're all out of step except my Freddie!", and she belived it! Crispness (talk) 08:04, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- Very funny. The fact is that this article has been hijacked by those with a political and nationalist axe to grind. All I'm doing is trying to redress the blance insofar as I can. If you think that's megalomaniacal then you have a pretty insubstantial grasp on what the word actually means, in my opinion. ðarkuncoll 08:23, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- Tharky, if you have got to the point where you believe nationalists gerrymandered the break up of Ireland to exclude unionists from the republic then you have moved into a realm of unreality from which you may never recover. --Snowded TALK 09:38, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- Did you actually bother reading what I wrote above? Unionists gerrymandered Northern Ireland, so Southern Ireland was gerrymandered by default. It was still gerrymandered though. Had an all-Ireland state been established instead, it would have developed very differently indeed, with its large Protestant minority. ðarkuncoll 09:48, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- Is there a point to this guys? It seems Rocket's proposals above are far more interesting to discuss than you chaps circling around the drain of incivility and playing Smack My Historical Bitch Up. --Narson ~ Talk • 10:33, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- As above, can this section be archived in the same way as British Isles used in Italian schools was, from the post beginning "Let us not forget that..." onwards. It has descended into a forum. --89.19.91.84 (talk) 18:54, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- I agree. If people want to make ridiculous claims about Irish history, go over to Boards.ie, let me know, and I'll deal with you there. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 23:44, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Last Night of the Proms
In a fine example showing just how imprecise the term "British Isles" can be, the Last Night of the Proms broadcast from London, Glasgow, Cardiff and Belfast on BBC1 on 13 September 2008 included songs sung by Bryn Terfel. Wearing a specially made suit displaying the flags of the United Kingdom, Wales, Scotland, England and the republic of Ireland, it was introduced as a Folk-Song Medley out of ditties from all four corners of the British Isles: The Turtle Dove sings for England, we’re on the Scottish waters of Loch Lomond before hearing the Welsh Cariad cyntaf and joining sweet Molly Malone from Ireland. [5]. The last of these was referred to in the program as coming from Dublin. Bazza (talk) 13:00, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- Again, use or don't use BI wherever yas want on Wikipedia. But, this article's name remains as is. GoodDay (talk) 13:32, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- You didn't post the part of the intro. that most clearly points to the 'problem' with the term "BI": The medley is introduced as "genuinely British traditional." So that, here, the 'four corners of the British Isles,' = British. Nuclare (talk) 02:38, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
I saw the proms too - it was fully in line with the standard definition of "GB and the island of Ireland", but they used "Ireland" in its geographical sense, and used GB as three other "coners"! It is correct in a sense, but it's a mix of the geographical and the 'cultural' (or 'political'). It basically should be "five corners of the British Isles" if they do it without mixing. But the BBC has no singular approach with this, as we often see.--Matt Lewis (talk) 15:53, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- Mustn't forget the IoM and les isles de la Manche. The British Isles must have at least six corners thus proving that it cannot, in fact, exist. Sarah777 (talk) 09:07, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe they'll find them in CERN right next to Higgs boson! Sarah777 (talk) 09:10, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- Mustn't forget the IoM and les isles de la Manche. The British Isles must have at least six corners thus proving that it cannot, in fact, exist. Sarah777 (talk) 09:07, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- The title remains, do as ya'll wish with the content. GoodDay (talk) 13:13, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with you GoodDay.--jeanne (talk) 13:19, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Well, all I'll say is it was also asserted with the same confidence that the Irish people could not survive on their own unless they were ruled by the British. Actually, that's not all I will say. This name is going nowhere because it represents a uniquely British nationalist perspective of the subservient place of the Irish people in this world. Irish people, as made clear in the removal of British rule from most of Ireland, reject this British nationalist view of Ireland as a member of their "British Isles". Those people wishing to impose this name on us are wilfully resisting that Irish reality. They fail, intentionally it must be added, to grasp Irishness, in particular the principal experience that has shaped modern Irishness: British colonial rule. We have tasted freedom. We are not going back. It's over. Let me, therefore, assert: this name, like countless others in world history, will be changed because its unique purpose is to offend a large amount of people. The name is consequently experiencing a steep decline across academia, media and political circles, as detailed extensively in these archives. Most people do not wish to offend and simply want to get through life with as little hassle as possible. For that reason, people like this assume power in democratic, market-driven societies: they work with people, not go out of their way to offend them and lose business/listeners/readers. That is the real reason this article title will be changed. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 08:02, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- Or alternatively, people will go out of their way to be offended as an excuse to soapbox. Please, for political discourse we have news channels and plenty of websites. --Narson ~ Talk • 09:46, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- The title remains, do as yas wish with the content. GoodDay (talk) 13:12, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
"May" and "offensive"
So there seems to be support with references for "offensive" and no support with references for "may". Can the page now be unprotected and have "may" removed? 79.155.245.81 (talk) 12:33, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- Can we please have both "may" and "offensive" removed. And simply keep it "where many people find the term objectionable". Repeating "offensive" and "objectionable" is a tautology in this context. "Objectionable" is what we mean, rather than offensive. --78.152.239.22 (talk) 18:06, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- Whatever makes it easier. GoodDay (talk) 18:08, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- Once again: I am distinctly and unequivocally offended to be classed as British, as the term "British Isles" does when it claims Ireland. That's not my history, and they are not my people. Stop trying to impose the myths and nation-making projects of British nationalists upon Ireland, upon Irish people, and upon our own distinct experience of British occupation. We suffered precisely for our difference, the British dominated us based upon embracing that difference. Now, however, we are all, it seems, happy Brits. It's so contrived and ahistorical that it's pathetic. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 03:29, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Again, no more soapboxing, please. --Narson ~ Talk • 08:35, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Once again: I am distinctly and unequivocally offended to be classed as British, as the term "British Isles" does when it claims Ireland. That's not my history, and they are not my people. Stop trying to impose the myths and nation-making projects of British nationalists upon Ireland, upon Irish people, and upon our own distinct experience of British occupation. We suffered precisely for our difference, the British dominated us based upon embracing that difference. Now, however, we are all, it seems, happy Brits. It's so contrived and ahistorical that it's pathetic. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 03:29, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Whatever makes it easier. GoodDay (talk) 18:08, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- But the references not only say objectionable, but mostly say offensive. "Geographical terms also cause problems and we know that some will find certain of our terms offensive. Many Irish object to the term the 'British Isles'", "In an attempt to coin a term that avoided the 'British Isles' - a term often offensive to Irish sensibilities....", "Almost inevitably many within the Irish Republic find it objectionable, "...the British Isles (a term which is itself offensive to Irish Nationalists)", "The British Isles does include the island of Ireland although the adjective British used in this context is often found offensive by Irish Nationalists".
- And please, don't anybody start with calling "nationalists" a minority when the main party in government in ROI describes itself as "Republican". 79.155.245.81 (talk) 08:06, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Seeing as the Republic of Ireland is a "republic", it's not likely that the main party in government would refer to itself as "monarchist"! The term "Nationalist" does not necessarily mean "Republican". Look up both words in the dictionary.--jeanne (talk) 08:28, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Arn't those sources saying we should use many? Personally I'd stick with neither may or offensive and just go with objectionable. --Narson ~ Talk • 08:35, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Seeing as the Republic of Ireland is a "republic", it's not likely that the main party in government would refer to itself as "monarchist"! The term "Nationalist" does not necessarily mean "Republican". Look up both words in the dictionary.--jeanne (talk) 08:28, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- @jeanne. The meanings in an Irish context are clear. In Ireland republicans are all nationalists even if not all nationalists are republicans. Also a recent leader of Fine Gael, the main opposition party, made a speech to clarify that they were nationalists too - in case anyone thought otherwise. And I have a dictionary, thanks.
- @ Narson. As for "many", yes, the sources typically use "many" or "often". 79.155.245.81 (talk) 08:38, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- I do realise that in Ireland all republicans are nationalists. The point I had made, you have just stated, namely not all nationalists are republican. I was only joking about the dictionary. It's patently obvious that you own a dictionary- probably more than one, I daresay. --jeanne (talk) 08:46, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Exactly, so if the two biggest political parties claim they are nationalist in one way or another (i.e. republican or not) then there's no way to argue that "nationalist" is some odd minority in Ireland. This leaves the references saying "many" and "offensive" unambiguous and unarguable. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 10:37, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- But, you are referring to politicians, not the man in the street. Honestly, do you really think the average Dubliner gives two s..tes what geographical term is used?--jeanne (talk) 11:15, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- We are probably getting into a folly by trying to talk aout the people using political parties. The turnout at the last election was 67% and the Fianna Fail got less than half of that. Even if you add in the Fine Gael, you are still only at 68.9, which still gets less than 50% of the population. If a source says nationalists, we don't synthesise that to mean everyone. Perhaps, if the sources say Nationalists find it offensive, we should say that Nationalists find it offensive? --Narson ~ Talk • 14:01, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, now that sounds like a good solution. Nobody can argue the point that Nationalists do find it offensive. The problem was in the word "Irish", which implied that the majority of Irish people-even those non-political- found it offensive.--jeanne (talk) 12:44, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- No-one is synthesizing "nationalists" to mean everyone. The term is "many". I'm simply saying that the previous argument that "nationalists" meant almost no-one is unsupportable whereas an argument that "nationalists" means lots of people is easily supported. I've never argued majorities because there are no references, but even jeanne's "less than 50%" is still many. As for saying that "only" nationalists find it offensive, that's misleading and unsupported. The term is still described in reference as "often" offensive and offensive to "many" Irish, let alone the places where it's described as objectionable. Simply removing "may" from the current introduction gives a simple clean and supported text. All the maneuverings are apparently driven by some personal agenda. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 14:13, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Of course, one could provide citation that "The great majority of Irish people are nationalists to a greater or lesser degree...", from a survey in 2006 (http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2006/04/02/story13121.asp). That might support "many", and then we don't need to over-politicize things. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 14:53, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Hold on. This is more of the same old sh!t from the same auld suspects. The Irish are 'nationalists'- but the British? the English? No, they are of course far above such things. Duh. We've seen it all before. My status as an Irishman objects to being told I am not Irish. When my forefathers throughout the centuries resisted English and British rule, they were not 'nationalists'(a term only traceable in its modern form to 18th century Europe): they were Irishmen sharing a common culture and a common interest. Would that some day we could be Irish again and not simply 'nationalist' when we refuse to be 'British'. It must be the water over there. There's something wrong with you. Many Irish people, very very many Irish people object to, and are offended by, this absolutely fu@king ridiculous British imperialist term used by eurosceptic troglodytes from the dark ages. You're annoying me now.86.42.119.12 (talk) 14:57, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Who's annoying you? Whether or not the Irish are nationalists has no bearing or relevance to whether or not the English are. It's apparent from the citations I've provided that most Irish people are nationalists and it's apparent from citations that many people have provided that many people object to, or find offensive, the term "British Isles" when applied to Ireland. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 15:11, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Mo dhuine above is annoying me with her raiméis that 'many' might imply 'most'- "The problem was in the word "Irish", which implied that the majority of Irish people-even those non-political- found it offensive". Jesus, Mary and Joseph- I thought my grasp of the cursed foreign spleen was lacking. The vast majority of the population of this island is clearly 'nationalist'; if they were not one would see calls for a return to British rule. There are no such calls. The ceolán above is attempting to soften reality by replacing the word Irish with the word 'nationalist' because she refuses to accept that the vast majority of the population of this island has rejected the British nationalist pipedream of a nation covering their beloved "British Isles". Are the English and British 'nationalists' because they do not want to be ruled by a foreign country? Nope, 'nationalism' is for the lower, irrational sort. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 15:24, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Who's annoying you? Whether or not the Irish are nationalists has no bearing or relevance to whether or not the English are. It's apparent from the citations I've provided that most Irish people are nationalists and it's apparent from citations that many people have provided that many people object to, or find offensive, the term "British Isles" when applied to Ireland. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 15:11, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- No-one is synthesizing "nationalists" to mean everyone. The term is "many". I'm simply saying that the previous argument that "nationalists" meant almost no-one is unsupportable whereas an argument that "nationalists" means lots of people is easily supported. I've never argued majorities because there are no references, but even jeanne's "less than 50%" is still many. As for saying that "only" nationalists find it offensive, that's misleading and unsupported. The term is still described in reference as "often" offensive and offensive to "many" Irish, let alone the places where it's described as objectionable. Simply removing "may" from the current introduction gives a simple clean and supported text. All the maneuverings are apparently driven by some personal agenda. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 14:13, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
<reduce indent> "Most" may very well be true but there is reference for "many". You can read "many" however you want to. As for "nationalists", the original argument was that "nationalists" were only a few of the population. I'm afraid it was me who pulled up a reference to show that it's the vast majority, so please calm down. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 15:39, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- As far as I'm concerned, you can remove any mention of the Republic of Ireland from this article (maybe even the entire island of Ireland). But the name of this article stays, as it's at least a historical name. GoodDay (talk) 15:01, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- You say that I am living in the Dark Ages, Mister No Name. Bloody hell, I wish you had been in our local pub in Clontarf with all your ranting and raving British Imperialist Marxist-inspired drivel. My friends and I would have laughed ourselves sick. You are not proud of being Irish, you pathological hatred of the British far outweighs your love for Eireann. Jesus, not even my boyfriend from West Belfast was that fanatic. He would have taken the mickey out of you as well. Not everyone shares your hatred 86.... Put on a Rolling Stones CD , relax, and try to overcome your fear of Britain and all things British.--jeanne (talk) 16:06, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- 1. You have friends? 2. I note you refer to this 'boyfriend' in the past tense. How surprising-not. 3. I'm inclined not to take seriously a person who defines herself thus in 2008: 'My politics are far- right; I'm a Monarchist... and I despise the current PC mentality as it restricts freedom of thought and smooth flow of speech' 4.Éire is the nominative case. 5. With your preference for "British English" and other idiosyncrasies, I get the impression that you are running away from something in America and idealising something over in Britain (read: England). 6. All holders of the English crown since 1485 have been illegitimate interlopers and glorified shopkeepers. They are not exactly, like, French. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 17:06, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- You say that I am living in the Dark Ages, Mister No Name. Bloody hell, I wish you had been in our local pub in Clontarf with all your ranting and raving British Imperialist Marxist-inspired drivel. My friends and I would have laughed ourselves sick. You are not proud of being Irish, you pathological hatred of the British far outweighs your love for Eireann. Jesus, not even my boyfriend from West Belfast was that fanatic. He would have taken the mickey out of you as well. Not everyone shares your hatred 86.... Put on a Rolling Stones CD , relax, and try to overcome your fear of Britain and all things British.--jeanne (talk) 16:06, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- As far as I'm concerned, you can remove any mention of the Republic of Ireland from this article (maybe even the entire island of Ireland). But the name of this article stays, as it's at least a historical name. GoodDay (talk) 15:01, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Wikipedia good articles
- Geography and places good articles
- WikiProject templates with unknown parameters
- A-Class UK geography articles
- High-importance UK geography articles
- A-Class Scottish Islands articles
- High-importance Scottish Islands articles
- WikiProject Scottish Islands articles
- B-Class geography articles
- Unknown-importance geography articles
- WikiProject Geography articles
- Wikipedia pages referenced by the press