User talk:Jimbo Wales

Happy New Year

Ring out the old,
and Ring in the new.
Happy New Year!
From FloNight

(archiving comment Fram (talk) 15:00, 15 January 2009 (UTC))

Act or abdicate!

For Heaven's sake you have limited enough sole responsibilities on Wikipedia as it is, for how much longer are you expecting people to swallow the garbage going on here [1]. You have an Arb who is more than a cuckoo in the nest , he is bloody liability. Either fire him or resign yourself - Quite frankly after this stupidly prolonged debacle, I no longer care which of you goes - Are you so disinterested in this project? Get a grip and sort it! Giano (talk) 19:57, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

• [2] Act or abdicate! Giano (talk) 22:08, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

You seem to misunderstand my role here. The time for me to act may someday come. It is not today.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:16, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

• • I emailed you, it's a very serious matter with faults in both sides, including one of your ArbCom members. Secret ^account 22:32, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I emailed him too, he did not even bother to reply - he did not want to know. Giano (talk) 22:50, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

You have stated your wish to be a constitutional monarch, now go be one. This is your golden opportunity. Sadly, you seem to have failed at the first hurdle. Giano (talk) 22:34, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Real constitutional monarchs act by the advise of their ministers; in this case the other thirteen arbitrators. Jimbo may wish to do the same. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:56, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Jimbo, under what, if any, circumstances, do you feel it would be appropriate for the community to remove an arbiter? At Wikipedia:Village_pump/Arbitration_Committee_Feedback#FT2, FT2's approval rating ran something below that of George W Bush. Granted, the US congress is unlikely to impeach the President, but the analogy isn't perfect. --B (talk) 22:48, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I think it best to wait for the normal processes to be exhausted before imagining a new one. You've just elected a new Arbitration Committee and they are discussing and deliberating about this case. Let them do their work, I say. As you may recall from my appointments, I have issued a call for the creation of an Arbitrator recall process, but it will take time to develop it. As it stands, there's virtually no reason, as far as I am aware, for all the emergency-hang-wringing that's going on.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:58, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there's an emergency, just a frustration level that has been slowly building with the lack of visible action. (Arbcom could be working 24/7 behind the scenes but nobody knows that, so the frustration builds.) --B (talk) 23:07, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I love the way closed-door back-room glacially slow secret dealings are the *normal* processes now. Abnormal ones would presumably have open debate and come to a timely resolution. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 23:13, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Jimbo, your new Arbitrator Wizardman is of the opinion that Arbcom can not remove FT2 as Arbitrator, and that the matter is entirely within FT2's hands to either accede to the community's wish to resign, or to remain but under a cloud. This seems a critical issue to get sorted out ASAP. Do you have the authority to remove FT2? Does Arbcom? Does the community? Thatcher 23:25, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

No one does, which is why there are so many problems with the governance structure on this project. Now if only the community had the power (which they rightfully should), this would have been over long ago, and we'd all be getting on with something a lot more productive. The community has clearly expressed no confidence in FT2, and that should have been listened to, and action taken. It's not a light thing to be suggesting an arbitrator stand down (I don't think such a thing has ever happened before either), but there is simply no way he can continue as one. It's up to you Jimbo. Please don't stall any longer. Majorly talk 23:28, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Fact: JWales, alone, has the power to fire an Arb. Giano (talk) 23:32, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Thatcher - no one truly can, nor wants to answer that question, because it represents at the most fundamental level the failure of Wikipedia's governance. It should never have to come up - we're not a government, we;re not a bureaucracy. The Arbitration system was created to resolve intractable disputes pertaining to the encyclopedia (or so I figure) not as a place where the governed give up their natural rights in exchange for civil rights. The fact is, that whoever persuades the community and the people controlling the servers they've got it right is the one who has got it right. It is in all of our best interests if we don't address your question, and that we handle the situation through means that don't make us act like a government. My take on it anyway.--Tznkai (talk) 00:05, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

• Jimbo, this does need you to look at it. I believe the Bishonen business is trivial and can/will be dealt with by arbcom/community. The alleged abuse of oversight is far more serious, particularly since nobody apart from you can look at this: the community, not possessing oversight or access to the relevant logs, is in a knowledge vaccuum, and arbcom are useless here as FT2 is an arbitrator, as indeed was David Gerard. Since privacy policy is not the issue here external ombudsmen have no role. Abuse of oversight is something you and only you can look at since oversight is mostly in the hands of arbitrators and for obvious reasons we can't have arbitrators ruling on fellow arbitrators (even former arbitrators is stretching it a bit).

• Usually, I am of the "hands off, Jimbo" camp. But now we need you, since you are the traditional leader of en, and on this issue decision-making can be done by no other. Particularly since very arguably FT2 should be stepping down or removed anyway, since there are significant problems surrounding his tenure (no idea whether this is one of them, though). Moreschi (talk) 00:17, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
  • I think we could settle for a blunter version "I [Jimbo] am in the loop." while ArbCom tries to handle it without provoking a constitutional crisis. (At least I hope thats what they are doing) ---Tznkai (talk) 00:43, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, I am in the loop, talking to ArbCom daily as they study the situation. I do have the authority to remove Arbs, but would not do so casually. The ArbCom is looking at the situation, and in my judgment is doing so wisely. There's a lot of hysteria today which, it seems to me, is unnecessary and premature. Tznkai has it exactly right. I do think it is entirely reasonable to have Arbs ruling on Arbs, at least until such time as that has proven to fail - these are good and careful people, elected by you with a mandate for openness, and I am recommending that they proceed in an open fashion. I am encouraging FT2 to do what a lot of people have been asking for a lot of time: hurry up and post your side of the story. I'm also asking other people to be relaxed about waiting for him to do that, because as it turns out, it is quite a complex story.

Regarding the need for a community process to remove Arbs, recall that I am the one who called for one in my appointment of the new ArbCom: "We want arbs to be both responsive to community concerns, and also immune from populist campaigns that push rash decisionmaking. These are competing concerns which must be kept in balance. I request the new ArbCom to reflect on and discuss the creation of a method for the community recall of unpopular ArbCom members. This discussion should take place in June of 2009, once the new Arbs have some experience of the job and thus a deeper understanding of the pressures involved. I would like to see a procedure in place by the time of the next election".

I think today's stir illustrates quite nicely why we need it, but also why we have to be careful about it. Giano running around screaming for me to "do something" is not really a wise way for us to proceed with governance for the long run.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:17, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Jimbo, there's an attempt to turn this into a complex issue requiring months of discussion, when it is, in fact, quite simple. FT2 was asked onwiki in July 2008 about his December 2007 oversighted edits. He replied, "this ... [is] the first mention of any such to me." [3] That not only beggars belief, but has subsequently been shown to be untrue. He was told about the oversighting in e-mails on December 11, 2007, on April 22, 2008, and again on May 2, 2008. See Thatcher's statement here. FT2 had a responsibility either to tell the truth about the oversighting, or to say nothing at all. Given that he opted instead to post what he knew was a falsehood, he really has no alternative now but to resign as an arb, checkuser, and oversighter. The longer that takes, the more he damages himself and the committee. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 01:54, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

He's never abused his checkuser and oversight rights. I don't think anyone's ever accused him of that either. Asking him to resign as an Arbitrator is one thing. Streching it to resigning oversight is pushing it, but asking him to resign checkuser is way off the mark. --Deskana (talk) 01:56, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

It's a question of honesty, Deskana. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 01:59, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

The question is trust. FT2's reputation within the community is so severely compromised that no statement by ArbCom or Jimbo will be sufficient to restore trust. A resignation of his arb seat will be the end result of this tragedy. My impression is that FT2 is a good guy who does not care for politics. He failed to answer questions promptly, not seeing the political importance of doing so, and as a result his approval rating has plummeted to a critically low level. Perhaps events will prove my analysis wrong, but I don't think so. Lingering does nobody any good, least of all him. Jehochman ^Talk 05:41, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I would suggest that interested parties reserve judgement until at least the Committee's statement on the issue is posted. Cla68 (talk) 06:12, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

• We have waited long enough for this to be dealt with. Jimbo says [4]:"(Giano is) as usual ranting without the least bit of information" is to say the least inacurate, he then goes on to say [5] "Giano seems to want me.....acting instantly on either my own judgment" that does not normally seem to be a problem, he has frequently de-sysopped instantly on his own judgement - what's so different this time. This is one of the few occasions I can thnk of where it would be good idea if he did, but no as usual it is easier for him lambast me for pointing it out? All people want is a straight answer, FT2 has had more tham ample time (months in fact) to provide one. Time has tun out. Instead of speaking so decisively to me, Jimbo should sort this matter out, one way or the other.Giano (talk) 07:01, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

• Giano, I know this is late and largely superseded but you have obviously never really corresponded with Jimbo. If you read and understand what he writes in many venues, you will know that he is a thoughtful man with deep reserves of good faith. It is entirely in character for Jimbo to want to think long and hard about something like this, which reflects, don't forget, on his own personal bonds of trust just as much as, if not more than, those of the wider community. There is no deadline, and nothing will break because Jimbo is not immediately acting the God-King and calling down fire from above. You know from your own experience that trying to force someone to do something against their will is much less effective than persuading them to do the right thing in a way that lets them maintain their dignity. You know this because of the number of times that people have tried to coerce you into being less abrasive, and your response is almost always to be more abrasive, even though you are an intelligent, well-educated, well-read and decent man. Do you not see that the way to fix this is not to reach for the tar and feathers? I don't think anyone is in any doubt as to the community's feelings here, and in my experience Jimbo will try to avoid having to do anything himself, as he generally prefers people to do the right thing of their own accord in response to reasoned discussion. Please just back off for a bit. Guy (Help!) 22:21, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Open letter from FT2

Dear Jimmy,

You will be well aware - more than most - of recent matters. I have considered the position of myself, the community, yourself, and Arbcom, the prior record, and conclude that this note is necessary and appropriate. In brief, there is a problem encompassing all of these points:

Analysis of problem

1. Two specific matters went bad. These were Orangemarlin and the present "oversighted edits" issue. The community has a legitimate concern whether the messenger was the creator of these (by substandard care or wilful misconduct), or whether a reasonable or high standard of care existed and in fact the issue was of different origins. There is pivotal information in both that remains rightly non-public at this time. Like other cases that contain non-public information, in each the requirement is for review by users trusted to report with insight and integrity.
2. A wide range of matters in 2008 went well. The community broadly has no knowledge of those and cannot consider the above in the context of general standards of arbitrator conduct.
3. There is a complication related to active and engaged arbitrators, in that the community includes a number of users with grudges, and users who have a personal agendas, and these are often quite separate from any actual neutral assessment of the role as carried out. Factors within this complication include significant bad faith, attacks, conspiracy theorizing, rumor, and speculative hearsay. As well, many users felt very badly let down by Arbcom (either in 2008 or historically) and inclined to believe or wish to express their disapproval on an individual, whether well or badly judged. In this area, the community broadly does not fully know what to believe or trust since the deciding factor is more likely a kind of general backlash.
4. Community dispute resolution processes cannot resolve this. They may at best see the matter dissipate, in which case much of the raw data needed to form a view is unknown and will remain so. This would be unfair to the community, to the committee, and to myself.

5. Arbcom itself is at risk of being too close to the issue, and hence it rightly may fear being tainted or overshadowed in its 2009 reform agenda by this matter, which it may rightly regard as a 2008 "albatross". It may be torn between wanting fairness, wanting to recognize communal feelings, and wanting to rid itself of the issue entirely by "cutting the Gordian knot". The latter must surely be extremely tempting in terms of resolution.

   Although I have asked about self-requested RFAR -- our highest level of dispute handling -- in my view Arbcom cannot easily take on this role (despite being "within remit") as it has a more important job to do, namely serving and focussing on the community. There is a possibility that in fact it cannot take on this case in a practical sense without imperilling its other remits. I may be wrong, but that would be a clear point to consider.

6. Finally, you yourself cannot take on this issue either. You would usually be the resort for a case Arbcom cannot handle, but it would put you in a difficult position, perhaps transferring some grudges from myself to you if you did decide there was no or little substantive issue. You might also be accused of being too close, due to prior involvement and possibly a prior view. As project leader you may hold and execute whatever view (in that role) you wish -- you may ban a user, change their role or access, or instate them in a role or access. I do not believe on this case that you can readily run the inquiry.

Track record

I list below for those who don't know, some of the other matters I have attended to this last year:

• I handled personally and alone, the cross-wiki inquiry into Poetlister/Cato. This involved a team of arbs, crats, and cross-wiki stewards, the historically prickly "political" relationships between the enwiki and wikiquote communities or users within them, WMF (Jimbo, Cary), three top level directors within the UK civil service, and the user himself. The risk here was of "rogue checkuser", the creation of a media storm harmful to the project, and immense loss of trust related to private data handling. It was complicated by a lack of formal proof of rogue-ness, and communal mis-belief these socks were genuine people. The matter was handled in a way that caused less drama than most desysoppings. It took a large part of 3 - 4 months of my year to do so, and was highly commended by seasoned Wikimedians.

  Despite being by far the most sensitive and complex sock-puppetry matter in the entire history of all WMF projects combined, and with inter-project and real-life "political" concerns, it still concluded with barely a ripple in any WMF sense, and with all matters under good control from a WMF and enwiki perspective.

• The community values openness. Last year there was openness in a radical area. For the first time analysis of the use of the Checkuser function was made public. It was greatly appreciated by all. Also as many will recall, in 2008 CheckUser ceased to be a secretive arbcom decision merely announced, but changed. The replacement process sought interested candidates, and sought community input on their suitability. There were concerns by some arbitrators to this, and it took from my initial proposal in January until August to see it go "live". Both of these moves towards openness were seen as broadly positive steps for the future, and both were substantively my working for the benefit of the community. A further item barely two weeks ago is keeping the community informed here.

• In January 2008, Archtransit was desysopped. In 2007 when Runcorn was desysopped, the announcement was a one-line statement. Perennial drama followed due to the willingness of some to doubt it, and Poetlister's own manipulations. I alone made sure Arbcom did not make the same mistake twice. Archtransit was desysopped with a full announcement and summary evidence. Poetlister was unbanned (and later rebanned when case proven!) with full explanation. No other arbitrator moved to make such matters open. This became widely valued as a break from past years and considerable improved communal transparency.

• I noted wide concerns about BLP. While not an "action as an arb" it's worth noting. An at-risk BLP monitoring process, the BLP subject's help page, a request to create NOINDEX (I wasn't aware others had asked for this), the proposal to switch no consensus = delete at BLP AFDs, and the strong and principled rejection at RFAR/Footlighted quotes of BLPSE (since discussed for review/withdrawal), were all parts of this. Despite this very strong oppose, when BLPSE passed I worked wholeheartedly with the Committee consensus to try and find ways to make it work.

• Likewise "not as an arb" I took a significant hand in harassment handling - updates to WP:HARASS, the email footer enhancement and wording, the writing of WP:EMAIL, and many difficult user harassment cases.

• Also "not as an arb", I created the first policy for administrators, and made sure within it, admin conduct was essential and standards were emphasized. When the Arbitration policy was being reworked I added to the proposal the same thing under omissions/additions - "When I drafted WP:ADMIN policy it included as a new section the communal standards we had for admin conduct. I cannot accept an Arbitration policy that does not make clear high conduct standards are expected of Arbitrators, too." And I drafted such a section. I also wrote our checkuser policy and the Arbitration guidance page.

• When the "new arbitrators' induction manual" was suggested by a colleague in fall 2008 for the ACE2008 new arbs, I was its main collaborator and wrote a very large part of the manual for the incoming arbitrators. There is one wording issue within that writing is worthy of note, where I assessed that arbcom had bluntly, failed to achieve its aims in 2008. I used the word "fail". My rationale was that the newcomers were not naive. This was objected to by a collaborator. The evidence of this is in Arbcom records, and shows I was under no illusion as to how I measured the performance, and that I did not soften my words around it the many times that this arose.

• I did a number of major sock work, caught a number of issues missed by other arbs on RFAR, and innovated the idea that Arbcom might owe an apology to the community for its significant errors or mishandlings. At RFAR I pushed the idea that rather than just accept and reject, arbitrators might also advise parties how to resolve their disputes, a more helpful response, and I did this on many occasions. In a number of cases it helped. I plan to continue.

• I proposed and drafted the proposal for the Ban Appeal panel, which would allow fair review of bans and separation of arbcom review of its own bans, as well as creating the current 2009 Arbitrators' proposals process that ensured internal matters that didn't work or where Arbcom discovered an issue, were noted for a decision to be made and improvement. Examples of such matters: When should arb's enforce rulings? How should banned users be reintegrated to the community? Under what circumstances are emergency and/or temporary desysops appropriate?

• Contentious in the eyes of some, and highly well considered in the eyes of others, I count this item as a significant matter for the project: A user unblocked an Arbcom-only matter (Giano) at Arbitration Enforcement. This was a high profile and very sensitive matter and a tinderbox waiting to explode. The user and many others knew it. The last times a "Giano matter" exploded it resulted in a wheel war, admonishments, discussion of desysopping, and a lengthy multiparty "pile-on" RFAR that was wasteful, discouraging, and no benefit to the project. Admin users who acted poorly in the heat of the moment had also risked their adminship for nothing, and many other users got sucked into the drama spiral, either as participants or outside opinions. The 2 hour block prevented any repetition. No wheel war took place which was likely had nothing been done. On this occasion, strikingly, there was no drama spiral, no multi-party pile-on; all parties decided rather quickly that usual dispute resolution was in fact quite a good idea, and the resulting RFAR was orderly, simple, and quick, with just one user needing to be simply told by Arbcom not to repeat their action as the remedy.

I place these as examples of the highlights of my work for the community, both on-wiki and off. Of course a large number of routine matters existed too. They are well evidenced and may indicate that the cases of communal concern were exceptions, where "something unexpected happened", and not wilful acts.

I submit these as evidence that in fact I am confident it will show a higher - that is, broadly well above average - standard, not a lower one; with more effective, reasonable and appropriate actions, not fewer.

A personal view

I conclude above that this project (enwiki) may not itself fully resolve the dispute. The sole resolution this project can find within its own dedicated users would be RFAR or ignore (each leading to low grade concerns), or else removal based on reasons that, themselves, largely exist only due to lack of reassurance as to what is true or fair, and what is not. One cannot blame a number of users for acting on apprehensions or unreassured anxieties, and authoritative review indeed would be needed.

Is it worth it? I have analyzed the evidence of Thatcher, possibly the best respected and most knowledgable non-arbitrator on these issues, and it is riddled with errors that are hard evidenced in cites, diffs, emails, and the like. It is likely others hold similar misconceptions as in lieu of privacy-barred data rumor is easy to believe. As I asked on my talk page, to one user:

"Given that the majority of assumption here is badly misinformed [...] and given also, that the reality is that my work has been of a high quality and benefited the community very well [...] does it serve the community better to 1/ remove a beneficial, seasoned, acts-with-integrity, productive user based on visible misassumptions and hearsay that isn't well backed up, or does it serve the community better to 2/ find some way to get at the truth of it and get genuine information as to what to believe and what not about this all?"

Conclusion

I have concerns whether arbcom or the community can resolve this (or would even be wise to try). At the same time we extend good faith within reason, and evidence should speak more than perception -- this is the norm for all matters, and this one no less than others. The community needs to have the evidence, and any concerns, reviewed carefully and authoritatively. I ask you therefore in your role as project leader to meet my service to the community with a means of fair hearing, by users who have authority and standing to reach the appropriate findings of fact needed here and sufficient experience, lack of connection, and standing, to have their work taken seriously.

If I would suggest an approach, it would be perhaps to create a panel of 5 WMF stewards who know this community's ways well (for background) but not necessarily from this community. Make the scope as wide or narrow as wished, or "as they see fit"; take evidence in private or public as needed; show any or none of it so long as I know the points I must myself evidence; and let it take its path for whatever time it needs. If there is a strict and careful inquiry then its decision will be balanced, and based on good evidence, rather than hearsay, presumption, and occasional ill-minded myth and malice. Let its findings of fact stand as they will.

For my part, I am by this notice stepping down from the committee until this or another way is found to provide a fair hearing with appropriate gravitas. The role is not important; it is the ability to help the community, and the avoidance of doubts, which matter. Dialog on this is stalling because I cannot answer questions being presented without either inciting a past harasser, or else breaching my own and others' privacy, which is the barrier that promoted me to seek Arbcom's counsel in the first place.

If you have a better way I leave it in your hands.

In the interim I will return to my first love on-wiki: random content-work wherever it takes me (the tougher the better), dispute resolution, assistance to administrators and users, complex sock cases, and areas where WMF or this project needs help in its more difficult cases. I have been less available for that during this last year.

Either way it is an honor serving the community, and I bear none ill-will.^**

FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 06:52, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

^** And yes, to anyone who may feel that they acted hostile or aggressive at some time, so that reciprocal ill-will must be believed to exist. It doesn't. I argued for Giano's benefit as often as told him when the line needed drawing; argued for Damian's benefit as fiercely (and unknown, unpublicized) as making clear that he would also need proper lines to be drawn for a time. The same would go for all. There is absence of ill-will. To anyone who may wonder if this can be so, your belief is not a prerequisite. Only good conduct is.

Discussion

Increasingly, I'm not sure what the purpose of a hearing would be. Is the question whether you made misleading statements and failed to correct them, or is it whether the community still has confidence in you? The latter question cannot be adjudicated—it's a question for the community (see Wikipedia:Requests for comment/FT2, in progress). I agree that ArbCom is poorly situated to decide anything about one of its own members, but I doubt that organizing an extraordinary tribunal is helpful to you or Wikipedia. Cool Hand Luke 07:46, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Its a bit like "Cart before horse". The problem is not that the community cannot handle the facts. It is that the community cannot fairly judge these matters in any usual process used to assess facts about conduct, either because the full picture is not available to it or because each usual venue may be seen as non-neutral in its assessment. But difficulty in assessing someone's standard of wiki-related conduct is not a good reason not to do so. I don't know what remit or scope this might have, but I know if I were a generic interested user I would want answers such as "was this genuinely X" and "how plausible is the evidence that Y". Those questions and interpretations are not "overly subjective"; they are the ones we make every day at RFAR, RFCU, ANI. So we know how to make them. The only difference here is deciding who is qualified to make such decisions if the enwiki community's usual methods cannot. The likely answer is that there are competent means outside the enwiki community that can. Is it worth the effort? Well, we routinely spend 15 users' time off and on for 4-8 weeks or more and many others presenting evidence and discussion, for far less. It's unusual. So some novel thought in setup may be needed. We did that as we found necessary on some cases too. As to "helpful", once such findings are available one might then have confidence as to the community's ability via its usual processes (RFC/RFAR/Arbcom review) to consider the matter, since the basic understandings would be stated, much better founded, and hence far less susceptible to volatile "blue skies" speculations and/or badly unfounded apprehensions. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 08:11, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I think you're right about this. I imagine we should have a fact-finding, and then a poll of the community. Maybe we could even try to employ the jury system once suggested by Kelly Martin—we would avoid dramaheads that way. Grab 12 random active editors with more than X edits, and ask them "given these facts, do you think this editor should be continue to be an arbitrator?" Cool Hand Luke 20:55, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

However it's done, it needs to put the matter to bed one way or the other, and also, needs to handle uncensored material relevant to real-world matters. That means they need to have trust levels akin to the sitting arbitration committee, sufficient experience to evaluate the matter, and sufficient standing/gravitas that their view would be capable of being taken seriously by a large part of those interested (in all sides). I cannot see other than WMF stewards meeting that requirement, but it's one case and a pure "evaluate and report on these facts please", so there is good reason. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 02:54, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

• Thanks for your service over the past year, FT2. --TS 09:46, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
• Enjoy the freedom to do what you want. --Apoc2400 (talk) 09:55, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
• For clarification, do you consider your arb-time suspended while you step down, or will you be up for re-election at the same juncture as previously, or immediate re-election when you wish to return, or is this an outright resignation, or otherwise. I'd just like to clarify this point as I feel it is important. Thanks, Verbal chat 10:03, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I stated "stand down" rather than "suspend". The choice of wording was intentional. Arbitratorship needs communal trust, and I am stonewalled in clearing my name by virtue of the above issues, namely that 1) the evidence to do so is non-public, and 2) the body allocated the role usually of assessing non-public evidence is too closely involved to do so and 3) has not yet succeeded in suggesting any workable advice how I myself might bypass this conundrum.

I have no idea what this would imply. It's completely unknown territory of course for Arbcom itself to be unable to resolve a division even by ruling. However some things can be said. It is our way to find solutions to genuine dilemmas. For example, it is not for the good of the project to mark a seasoned, experienced user with a close to meticulous record for care, as untrusted in any way, save on good evidence, nor would I endorse depriving the community of users who even with a moribund arbitration committee have produced exceptionally skilled and productive work, and whose very few cases of failure are themselves very largely due to the state of that same committee in that year. Not many other users showed the above level of commitment to openness under the rigors of last years' inertia. It doesn't help the project to deprive the committee unless the cause is genuinely good; even less so when they have visibly themselves taken full steps to prevent any recurrence. Put simply, RFAR is not decided based on popular views, when it is quite likely that the popular views relate poorly to the full neutrally-reviewed evidence.

I also state "until a way is found [to go forward]". We do as a community norm, often make summary decisions and sort any questions out afterwards. This to me seems one of those cases. We might allow a review of a matter before taking action, or allow it after, but it will always be available to any editor who seeks it in good faith. In this case it seems right to step down until the review is done, rather than review first and decide at the end.

FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 13:35, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

• FT2, have you resigned or not? Please try to answer briefly as, to be frank, further long spiels will do you, arbcom, and the community in general more harm than good. By the way, at least one current Arbitrator has publicly indicated that you should resign ([6]), and another has requested a significant re-write of your statement at the RfArb on Bish ([7]). DuncanHill (talk) 13:40, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It's a semantic matter, I think. I have stepped down. I have de-subscribed from the Arbitration Committee's "sitting arbitrators" list at the same time as posting the open letter, i.e. from all places that ex-arbitrators would be excluded. I plan to focus on more general matters, although I will probably retain an interest in what goes on at RFAR and in resolving complex disputes, as before arbcom. Those are the practicalities. Call them what you like. I do not at this time consider myself to be "on Arbcom" or "an Arbitrator", but instead an ex-arbitrator. I do not have an imminent interest in resuming the role of an arbitrator (it feels rather like being let out of school to be honest!). The committee as well needs to be able to ignore the issue completely, continue its development, and serve the community. What word is used for that is secondary and is not intended for quibbling over. Resigned would imply an intention. I have no intention other than see what may be^**. The issue for me is instead about resolution -- if you think about it, no other user will be impacted by perceptions if left unresolved so I have a personal interest in this even if I were never to seek a seat again.

On a side, since some will surely wonder ^**, I confirm as well that no formal or evidence-based finding of any significant conduct issue has taken place, nor has any such been proposed at the time of stepping down. A view does exist by various arbitrators that the extent of communal apprehensions whether right or wrong is disruptive to its work, and it is out of respect for that sentiment and to prevent those beliefs and apprehensions impacting the work of the committee that I step down, as an ex-arbitrator in good standing, with no finding to the contrary nor any anticipation of such finding happening if I were to remain. If it did happen that a later review were to find actual misconduct that would change things. I do not believe it will. If needed I will ask a sitting arbitrator to confirm that no discussion of any finding of gross or significant misconduct was proposed, nor was the raising of such a finding discussed. the sole issue

(And thanks for the heads-up!) FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 14:50, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

^** Noting: if the Committee were to decide at some time that those concerns had become sufficiently discredited or stale, so be it also. No specific intentions but not closing the door.

^** and some might wish their perceptions to be treated as reality, which sadly is human nature

• "Stepped down" clearly is synonymous with "resigned", so there is no way to reinstate FT2 without another election when a spot comes up. Verbal chat 13:50, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

• A further clarification, and please keep the excessive verbiage to a minimum this time: As you have "stepped down" (resigned), will you also no longer be included on Arb mailing lists and other privileged forms of communication, resources, etc., as befits a non-arb. Verbal chat 13:46, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
  • As you're no doubt aware, Verbal, former arbitrators retain access to the main arbitrators mailing list. Avruch ^T 14:16, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
    • I wasn't aware, that is why I have asked. If this is the usual thing then this isn't the place to address it. Verbal chat 14:44, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

• Apologies, then. Avruch ^T 14:47, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

• For what its worth, FT2, I think you did the right thing. I would not argue for it, but it was the only way forward. Thank you for your efforts and what you've accomplished, and for putting the community first. Avruch ^T 14:16, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

• I think FT2 has done the honorable thing. Trust is not rational. You cannot prove that people should trust; either they do or they don't and their reasons may or may not be correct. Nevertheless, an arbitrator requires a high degree of trust or they cannot do that particular job. If trust is lost, then resignation is the right move and may even help increase trust. Jehochman ^Talk 14:26, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

It isn't rational, but that's okay. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 14:54, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

• Thank you, FT2. This whole matter is quite unfortunate in a number of ways.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:37, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

It's been a privilege, and an experience. It's also remarkably relaxing, this new experience. I forgot what plain adminship felt like! I imagine I'll be around :) FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 14:54, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

• Thanks from me as well, FT2, for whatever it's worth. I'm sorry that you were the victim of the anti-ArbCom smear brigade, and regret that this incident had to come to pass. I'm very glad to hear that you intend to continue serving the community. GlassCobra 15:06, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

It'd help if there was some "outside way" to review arbitrator conduct (this actually was in the original Review Board proposal Coren and I posted). So in true wiki {{sofixit}} fashion I figure, let's fix it so we have it for future :) FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 15:12, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi FT2, I'm still confused. In some bits you seem to say that you are stepping down just for durinon of any investigation, in others you seem to be saying you are permanently resigning. I was wondering which it is? Or by 'not closing the door' do you mean that you would come back at a later date if the other arbs want you to? It is unlikely you will get the type of hearing you want, from people outside en.wiki. So I suppose this is probably the end of us having you as an arb. Thanks for having a go, anyway. I would have been perhaps a coward and found an excuse to witthdraw my candidacy during the arbcom election if someone brought up something that intense about me, I must admit. :) Sticky Parkin 15:27, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

• As a simple of matter of procedure, I am removing FT2 from the active Arbitration list and into the "former members" category, with the note "Stepped down indefinitely" (See Filiocht for a parallel). --Tznkai (talk) 16:02, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
• You know I think you have been a valuable editor. I do acknowledge valuable and important work you did at ArbCom, but I think you have done the honorable thing and I think you, and also wish you well as you resume the most important job of all: editing and contributing to articles. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:26, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Depends on how Jimbo views this, really. The previous precedents (which in practice has not occurred) is that people on indefinite leaves (read: inactivity from wiki as a whole while being arbitrator) would be able to reclaim a seat in their trench provided there are openings. This, obviously, is not one of those cases. - Penwhale | ^{Blast him / Follow his steps} 18:20, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

A formal request

Jimbo, a key element is missing here. The community hasn't gotten confirmation whether FT2 was the problem or the fall guy. The community doesn't know how the Orangemarlin affair happened or what the Committee learned from it. This Oversight business couldn't have gained so much traction if that more meaningful event had been resolved with greater candor.

What we have right now is not an acceptable situation. Either FT2's resignation ought to have come much sooner or perhaps not at all. His credibility was undermined too greatly. One administrator forced events by deciding to indefinitely block an arbitrator, and as a result the Committee itself was arguably unable to weigh her underlying complaint.

It may be very tempting to breathe a sigh of relief, call this extraordinary, and try to put it behind us. Yet without underlying confidence in the Committee we run the risk of more events like this one. Opinions vary over whether the ends justified the means, but such means should never have been considered necessary or even plausible. You know how to boil a frog: drop the frog in warm water and turn up the heat slowly. We're on heavy simmer right now.

About two weeks ago, while I was attempting to persuade a well known editor to participate in a case where he's under scrutiny, arbitrators were weighing in on a formal motion that five of them obviously hadn't read.[8] Can you imagine how difficult it is to be a mentor trying to persuade an editor to submit evidence while arbitrators behave as if they aren't obliged to review one brief paragraph that had been submitted by one of this site's most prolific featured article writers?

A month earlier I was stunned to see a reliable administrator attest that the Committee had lagged seven months on a legitimate community ban review. The administrator had been observing and advising the banned editor, and was deeply frustrated after watching four arbitrators and a clerk each respond with initial positive indications and then, in turn, each drop the ball. I had been the original blocking administrator: if anyone had pursued his request seriously they would have come to me. None did for half a year until the banned editor approached me himself. He more than satisfied my standards for unbanning; I approached the Committee on his behalf, then watched the request fall into the same black hole. That is the kind of institutional paralysis that turns would-be reformers into hardened vandals, the observing administrator commented when I took matters into my own hands and opened an ANI thread. The community completed review and unblocked in three days.

I don't like blogging this; I don't like posting this. It shouldn't fall to me--an ex-admin under formal admonishment--to call this spade a spade.

In the Navy we used to do an exercise called 'lessons learned'. The point was to be frank about collective mistakes in order to prevent them from happening again. For three years I've been advising editors who come under scrutiny at arbitration to do their own 'lessons learned' if they've erred. That is not an easy exercise to undertake. It's time for the Committee to do their own 'lessons learned': to announce their intention to do it now, along with a deadline when the formal report will be ready. The community needs its confidence restored. Durova^Charge! 22:12, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Vacant seat

Jimbo, I hope you will consider filling FT2's now vacant Committee seat with the next highest vote getter from the recent election. Cla68 (talk) 00:13, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, what the hell, we voted for 7, got ten (plus one for a badly timed retirement), why not just appoint all the candidates and have done with it? DuncanHill (talk) 00:20, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Technically, there are two vacant seats; Deskana's seat was not filled on his retirement. Risker (talk) 00:24, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake. I do find the shuffling and tranches confusing. DuncanHill (talk) 00:25, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

The next highest would be SirFozzie and The Fat Man Who Never Came Back.[9]. rootology (C)(T) 04:52, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. Majorly talk 05:06, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

We could probably survive waiting until the next special election cycle - I don't foresee an 8/8 tie which would be the only pressing issue.--Tznkai (talk) 08:00, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think appointing the next two in the election would be wise. Candidates in the top 7 got extra scrutiny because they were the most likely to be appointed - candidates outside of the top ten got considerable less scrutiny because it seemed unlikely they would be successful. Think of it this way - all the Republican candidates for the nomination dropped out when McCain was the clear winner except Ron Paul. Picking 11 and 12 in the ArbCom election would be like proceeding to Ron Paul if something happened to McCain. Avruch ^T 14:27, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

• I don't think the seats absolutely need to be filled. As the ArbCom has just been expanded, it might be large enough to deal with the workload. I would prefer new elections in 6 months to appointing lower-percentage candidates from the last election. Kusma (talk) 15:03, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

• • I think I'll call for a special election in a few months, maybe June unless there's some reason the ArbCom advises me to do it earlier. In that election, there will be at least 2 seats available, plus any more that come available in the meantime through retirement (and I'll encourage retirement for those who are not active and don't foresee being able to free up time). The length of the terms available will be announced in advance, we have a bit of a strange unbalanced situation at the moment.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:00, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Which is precisely what you said when you announced the winners before... I guess not many people actually read that announcement. --Tango (talk) 16:18, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
      • Might be an opportunity to juggle the existing tranche system - but that could just be my own pipe dream.--Tznkai (talk) 19:44, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
        • Just curious. How many Arbcom seats are there? GoodDay (talk) 22:53, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
          • Last time I checked, 16 filled 18 total, divided into 3 tranches --Tznkai (talk) 23:25, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
        • Juggle it in what way? --Tango (talk) 23:30, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi

I wish i had as much barnstars as you. Imthegreatest (talk) 18:01, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Heh.  :) --Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:56, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

This straw poll

Would you kindly make this straw poll visible to people when they look at their watchlists? Thank you very much. Jonathan321 (talk) 19:07, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't really have any control of things like that, I have no idea who does or what might make that happen. :-)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:02, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Any admin has the capability of adding it to MediaWiki:Watchlist-details, but I don't really think this is something of wide enough interest to justify it. I would suggest to Jonathan321 instead advertising it at {{cent}} and WP:VPT. --B (talk) 20:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Late again - isn't this Wikipedia Day?

Hi Jimbo, I very much enjoyed your interview this morning on CBC Radio.(at 01:35 in) It does indeed appear that this is the eighth anniversary of Wikipedia - congratulations and best wishes are in order. Thanks also to the pioneers who put this all together. I can only imagine what year-16 will look like! :) Franamax (talk) 00:36, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, congratulations. And I applaud your decision to have Giano fill FT2's vacant seat on Arb Com. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:14, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Ha.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:54, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Re: Your interview with Jian Ghomeshi (Q/CBC Radio)

Dear Jimbo, I listened with great interest to the podcast of your interview with Jian on CBC Radio and especially to the section about the forthcoming changes to Wikipedia, specifically the introduction of the service to stop people seeing a page until it has been reviewed by someone trusted within the community - I assume you are talking of Flagged Revisions.

It does concern me however, that you spoke of it as if it were a foregone conclusion that its coming, whether we like it or not. At the moment, judging by the !votes in the flagged revisions trial straw poll, Its roughly 300 or so in favor, to 200 and something odd against.

Do you consider that the way you mentioned it may have been a little hasty, especially considering the likelihood that it may not actually come to the English Wikipedia at all?

Thanks for listening. Thor Malmjursson (talk) 20:00, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

that seems like an interesting idea, some wikipedias already have it, however this would take way too much time, as english wikipedia is growing, will have over 3 000 000 articles, i would, however, suggest have review done only on big articles over 10 pages, e.g. gaza-israeli conflict. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.246.124.67 (talk) 21:46, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I think it will come, without any question at all. Community support seems strong (per the nonbinding poll you cite above), the German experiment has gone well, and I strongly support it. I intend to ask that the feature be turned on, per the nonbinding poll, very soon now. It would strike me as foolish not to do it, considering the success it has had everywhere and given the very cautious way it has been proposed for testing here.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:52, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I understand that the poll is non-binding, but in that case, may I ask what the point of asking if we want it is, if you intend to ask for it to be switched on anyhow? Out of the 500 or so people who have answered the (not)poll, somewhere under a half of those (including myself I add) don't want it. We have vandalism reverters here, it's gonna put us pretty much out of a job. We won't need rollbackers either, since there'll be no vandalism to roll back anyhow. Its pretty much forgone, I suspect. Thor Malmjursson (talk) 00:17, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

It is a poll; they are votes. Mike R (talk) 16:26, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

"vandalism reverters here, it's gonna put us pretty much out of a job" Wouldn't that be a good thing? §hep • ^Talk 00:24, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree, it would. But some of us use vandalism reversion as a stress reliever. After a day of slaving away at the office, I just like sitting down and knobbling some of these idiots. It helps me relax :D Thor Malmjursson (talk) 00:28, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I disagree that support seems strong. Yes, it's in the 60-65% range, but many of the opposes are strong and many of the supports tepid. If it is implemented, it just needs to be done extremely carefully, because we're already set to lose more prominent editors upon its implementation from the looks of it. Wizardman 00:35, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

(Outdent) You are, Wizardman, including me. Thor Malmjursson (talk) 00:38, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure I see strong support either, successful RFBs have strong support. The straw pole shows pretty luke warm support as far as I can see. It'd certainly be within your rights here to push it through, but it'd be inaccurate to say you have strong support for it. At least as far as the poll goes. RxS (talk) 03:04, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

If Jimbo forces through flagged revisions, I may have to kiss him. He would be sending a strong signal to the world that Wikipedia is actually to be trusted, and isn't a place for game-players to play "zap the vandal"! GTD 03:10, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Jimbo quite rightly would never be so unwise as to claim that FR meant Wikipedia could be trusted, because by simple examination, it doesn't. MickMacNee (talk) 16:19, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Flaggedrevs is not going to eliminate the need for vandal fighters, vandalism edits will still have to be reverted in due time. Cenarium (Talk) 03:38, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, I'm well aware of that. But I'm convinced some get an adrenaline rush from reverting before anybody else does. Surely removing that element would be useful, and we may (knock on wood) see the return of more actual experts to the project? GTD 03:41, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think any expert ever left Wikipedia because his contribution was replaced by "OMFGUJSTGOTPWND!!!11!!". That is to my mind the least of their concerns about The Wikipedia way. MickMacNee (talk) 16:19, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

(Outdent) He'd also be sending a signal to the world that Wikipedia is the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit, providing you can wait about 2 or 3 days for your work to show up. On a wiki this size, the queue for reviews is gonna be horrendous. The German wiki, considering its size, is no comparison. I also resent the implication that those of us who vandal fight are game players. This is not a game, GTD. I've been vandal fighting on this wiki for over 4 years. If this was a game, i'd have quit long ago. Thor Malmjursson (talk) 03:22, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

While I'm sure Wikipedia appreciates your dedication Thor, I have a dozen examples of current vandalism to biographies, that have been in place for days or months. Some have propagated to mirrors and search engine caches. I won't provide them now, as I'm studying the phenomenon, but something clearly needs to be done. 217.78.205.169 (talk) 22:22, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, I might have to send a few dollars to the foundation. WilyD 03:15, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

(outdent)Let's be serious here. Go to Google, key in a living person's name. The chances are the Wikipedia article will be at the top or in the top three of the results. Surely everyone would agree it is more important to reduce the real-world damage that Wikipedia does, and will continue to do, that persevere with a liberal-utopian idea of letting anybody edit. Given we are not yet at the stage of locking BLPs for all but a new class of editor to edit (namely those who identify publicly and are of an age where they can be fully held to account for their edits in the real world), this has to be the way to go GTD 03:28, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, please let us be serious here, nobody ever (should) sue Wikipedia because their bio said they were a "moron" or some other such proveable nonsense. Reviewers wont be Harvard Law graduates, and POV pushers are not dumb. And speaking personally, the fact my bio would only be visible to a few thousand users, or be two clicks away from a Google result instead of one, would not fill me with any great feelings of warmth and comfort. If that is genuinely attributed as the opinion of others with bios, then that's their dumb luck for not really understanding FR, or human nature/ingenuity. MickMacNee (talk) 16:19, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

There's really no significant opposition to enabling it for BLPs. It's enabling it system wide that lacks the strong support he's referred to. Seems limiting it to BLPs would be a good compromise once the devs work it out. RxS (talk) 03:43, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good. Until the debate begins about whether to show the flagged version by default and to unregistered users (ie the vast majority of our users) or the latest version. If it's the latest version, which I have no doubt the "open edit" die-hard will opt for, we may as well not bother. I'd love to see strong leadership from Jimbo here, sometimes it is needed GTD 03:52, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

That's just the problem I see with flagged revs, GTD. If its not the latest version of a page, its gonna deter a lot of people from coming here. A lot of the reason I believe people edit here, is because when they make a new page, they know its gonna be out there for the world to see, at the minute they hit submit.

I have a feeling that having flagged revs slow the whole process down is gonna put a lot of people off by taking that away from them. Instead of the pleasure of seeing their work available to the world there and then, they're gonna have to wait, and on a wiki this size, as I have already stated, the big question is: How long? - a day, a week, a month? We're gonna have queues on top of queues waiting for review. Lord help us all.

As (correct me if I am wrong) Jimbo said a long time ago, in an interview with Slashdot Magazine "Imagine a world in which every single person on the planet is given free access to the sum of all human knowledge. That’s what we’re doing." - Would you stop someone from saying something just in case it was wrong? No, cause you would be interfering with that person's use of their knowledge. If I may quote Jimbo once more, from BBC News' Website, "Freedom of Speech is critical for all cultures." Again, let people post. We can clean it up if needs be; not stop them from posting it in the first place. Thor Malmjursson (talk) 04:30, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Flagged revisions may stop a few people editing, but it's easy to forget more than 99 per cent of the Wikipedia users have never edited an article. They are the people, the silent ones, we need to be defending. And, if there were a system in place to make Wikipedia more like a real encyclopaedia, heaven forbid, we may actually reverse the expert withdrawal we've suffered and get some decent editors. Would many worry about swapping 5,000 high school kids for 500 graduates from (decent) universities? Informed contribution and less childish edits could turn Wikipedia into an encyclopaedia, as opposed to the world's greatest potential defamation machine GTD 16:29, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I for one would worry. Many good users and a bunch of admins are high school kids. They made Wikipedia what it is today, in a time when no "expert" would touch it with a ten-feet-pole. They worked and work tirelessly in improving this encyclopedia and you want to scare them away with the faint promise that a tenth of their number in "experts" will replace them? I have bad news for you: Those graduates won't show up in those numbers, why should they? They can go to other places and get paid for the same work they would do here. The very idea that some users are worth more than others is nonsense and it does not improve when you defame whole groups of editors ("high school kids") of being any less of a value to this project than some graduates you think will come running here when we got rid of those editors you seem to deem "less-valuable". SoWhy 18:58, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Then it all depends on how users want Wikipedia to be perceived by those outside of the community (including the vast majority who "use" the project without ever clicking edit). Open editing and allowing anyone to add their thoughts is all well and good as a viewpoint. But to create a decent encyclopaedia? The open edit brigade may think a 12-year-old being able to edit highly-complex articles is a good thing, but what about those who actually want a source of decent information? Wikipedia has a unique position at the top of Google (through whatever means), so let's go from biggest to best! GTD 19:43, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

If you want a peer-reviewed encyclopedia, why don't you try Citizendium? Why should we create a Citizendium-clone? It got that position because it was no such clone, because it was not a peer-reviewed encyclopedia only some "experts" can edit. Do you really think it would stay that way once people would perceive Wikipedia as just another Encarta? What's next? Do you propose paid accounts and ads to pay for all those experts (not to mention to compensate the donations by all those fed up users who worked months and years for Wikipedia and are not deemed "valuable" anymore)? Your idea that we should assume that most people make indecent contributions is really worrying... SoWhy 20:11, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

'Users' (or this one at least), are (or should be) wise enough to know that readers aren't (or shouldn't be) convinced by claims of credibility that are not supportable. Use of flagged revisions, i.e. 'no 12 year olds have messed with this article', does not stand up as a credible assertion of quality or reliability, and is not going to bring a flock of expert contributors. If anything, it is smart assed know it all graduates who think they know it all (who will have auto sighting rights) messing with articles written by professors that is more of a realistic problem, if your goal is actual credibility. MickMacNee (talk) 20:47, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

(Outdent)There are plenty of graduates too, already working on Wikipedia. I know of at least 10 who I am in contact with on a regular basis, and I myself am a graduate, with a B.Sc. in Health and Social Welfare from Trinity College. We've already got graduate "experts" working amongst those high school kids. And what do you, GTD, consider to be a "decent" university? Thor Malmjursson (talk) 19:28, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

How can you say community support is strong considering the number of oppose notvotes, most of which are strong? -- M2Ys4U ^(talk) 14:00, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

It is a poll, they are votes. Mike R (talk) 16:26, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Flagged revisions

It seems to me that a trial (although "live") run is the only way to test this advance; if there is any value to having a founder that operates for the benefit of the project, yet remains outside the communal consensus, then this would be as good an example as there might be - if it all goes wrong we can all blame you and if it works then we all can be part of it... ;~) LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:13, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate that thought more than you can know. I grew up in Alabama in the era of Bear Bryant and University of Alabama dominance in college football. I was a huge admirer of Coach Bryant. Here's a relevant quote, one that struck me deeply many years ago, and one which I would like to live up to as best I can: "If anything goes bad, I did it. If anything goes semi-good, we did it. If anything goes really good, then you did it. That's all it takes to get people to win football games for you."--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:50, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

While I am not a supporter of your peculiar relationship to en-WP, particularly in relation to your access to certain properties, I have no hesitation in promoting the use of a particular ability where there is both no better option and, of course, it is to the benefit of the encyclopedia - it is a matter of best using the facilities that are available. Also, you are usually blamed or praised (often depending on the individuals viewpoint) for much of which that occurs within the project even if your input is minimal or nonexistent, so the placement of due recognition isn't something that should overly concern you. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:40, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Could you clarify which configuration do you intend to ask to turn on ? The proposed trial configuration that we worked out (subject of this poll) or another one ? Cenarium (Talk) 03:48, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, this is a big concern of mine, as I noted in my vote, I would like the proposed trial to be used as a protection type system, similar to Flagged protection, a proposed configuration that I support. I am strongly opposed to a full-scale implementation of FlaggedRevs, so I would like to have the nature of the deployment clarified as Cenarium requested.--Res2216firestar 19:12, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I, too, do not support turning on FlaggedRevs in the configuration the Germans are using, as I consider it to be much too aggressive. I am also willing to be proven wrong, and who knows what we will find. My view is that it should be "as a protection type system" as Res2216firestar has aptly termed it. In terms of technical implementation, it should work more or less the same way as protection. In terms of policy, I would support quite liberal use of the system on BLPs as well as on other articles known to be subject to ongoing problems. I'd recommend more or less immediately changing all protection and semi-protection to the much more newbie-friendly flaggedRev status. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:50, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Question about flagged revs

So, we're turning on flagged revs with a ~60% consensus? Don't you think this is a classic example of "no consensus"? I see no agreement, no discussion coming to a largely resolved opinion, and no realistic chance of anything changing in the short term. I'm really confused where the momentum you sense to turn this on for the English Wikipedia is coming from. Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 04:01, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

It was actually a straw poll, so I guess consensus doesn't matter too much here. Chamal ^talk 04:08, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Normally, foundation (small-f) changes require consensus in the region of 70% before they're even considered. Jimbo: please reconsider. There is literally no consensus within the community to even try it out. And please don't make this into our Treaty of Lisbon, where it keeps coming up every time we say "Non." Sceptre ^(talk) 18:25, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

? Issues this big hardly ever come up, but, on a smaller scale, we got rid of spoiler warnings after (actually during) a straw poll which gave removal 58% support (after a previous poll gave the "wrong" answer). PaddyLeahy (talk) 19:10, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

FR needs to be tried. I personally doubt it will scale well, I think the same vandalism and disinformation problems will occur, only more sneaky (and locking in previous inaccuracy). But it's there, it needs to be tried and either accepted or rejected based on experience. Franamax (talk) 14:00, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Obviously, a large minority of the community feels differently. I don't know if this is the best place to argue your POV too.

Also, Jimbo, may I ask for another major foundational shift that occured with consensus of barely over half the community? Considering that this isn't some silly thing about rollback, but something that might make people quit the project (~20% of German regulars quit after FR was implement, if I remember correctly), don't you think it is more prudent to repoll in a few more months and see if a better community consensus can be found?in a year and see if community consensus is different. NuclearWarfare _(Talk) 19:22, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Nuke, that's the wrong way to go about it. This is not gonna become another one of those ideas which keeps getting voted on until whoever started it gets the "right" answer. My mother taught me when I was a kid, "No means no." Once is enough. Thor Malmjursson (talk) 19:35, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Also, "X bad thing happened, if I remember correctly" doesn't really help me much to explore the issue. Do you have a reference?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:43, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Let me strike that part. The German IRC channel informed me that it was a lower percentage than that, though they don't have active figures. However, User:Dapete/Report_on_Flagged_Revisions,_December_14,_2008#Influence_on_edits_and_user_registrations, a translated version of a mailing list post, suggests that in the past year, registration has gone sharply down, by as much as 50%[10]. NuclearWarfare _(Talk) 20:07, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Are there any before/after numbers to suggest this had anything to do with Flagged Revisions? Or was the decline before this was implemented? Remember, too, the Germans have decided to use Flagged Rev's *everywhere* *by default*, which is not even under consideration here.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:41, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

As an aside, I consider our BLP issue to be so important that I think it is actually unethical to not use a tool which holds great promise for helping with the problem, now that it has been successfully tested elsewhere. Anyone who would like to see this tool not go into practice needs to start by convincing people that either (a) it is ok for the BLP vandalism problem to continue or (b) there is a better way to solve it. Anything else, for me, is just a total non-starter.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:44, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Improper use of the Wikipedia Logo

Resolved

Not sure where to post this, so will post it on your talk page. It would appear to me that legalintellects.com is using the Wikipedia logo in an unacceptable way which implies a relationship to Wikipedia that does not seem to exist. I would like to know your thoughts on the subject. See http://www.legalintellects.com/wiki/Outlines Thank you. Dbiel ^(Talk) 05:32, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I will email them and ask they not. In 99.9% of the cases, just a request fixes the problem. Prodego ^talk 05:37, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Image has been changed. Looks like a pretty nice website too. Prodego ^talk 06:47, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry about that Jimbo. It was basically a placeholder (I'm not getting any traffic yet). Prodego pointed me to some commons logos, and has brought me onto IRC and is now explaining to me the basics of the wikipedia culture =) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonklei (talk • contribs) 07:52, 17 January 2009 (UTC)