Talk:Dionysus

Insert non-formatted text here== Headline text ==

This, is awkward surrogate-fatherhood motif is an attempt to explain his being called "the twice-born" without invoking the mystery of a life-death-rebirth deity.

I removed this sentence for a couple of reasons. First, it presents hypothesis as fact. There could be a number of alternative reasons why the "surrogate-fatherhood motif" is so "awkward": for example, to reconcile differing local traditions. Second, the l-d-r-d thing is already mentioned twice: in ==Modern Interpretations== and in Categories. Bacchiad 20:00, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)nmkmnhjjnjgh

Madness?

This is partying!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.157.63.167 (talk) 00:35, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Dionysus painting

...too gay... surely you could have found another way to phrase that. - Montréalais 18:38, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Surely I could have. Alexander 007 04:46, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• • If I recall correctly, Dionysus was involved in some homosexual activity, so too gay is not a problem. CanadianCaesar 21:54, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't care for the image either. It's atypical. It would be nice if the first image on the page was helpful to the reader in identifying other images of Dionysus, and this one isn't. Jkelly 03:17, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Well seeing as part of the point of Dionysus was that he was ambiguously both masculine and feminine (long haired in feminine style dress) I think commenting that he's "too gay" - at least in what I presume your narrow minded view of "too gay" to be - is a bit obtuse. However that said a greek depiction would probably be a good idea. Orias 09:43, 18 Nov 2005 (UTC)

I placed a new image. Classical. Hits the tone. Alexander 007 23:47, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

It's also very similar to another image, further down the page. I prefer the prior image. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 23:49, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't. Let's have a vote. I'd rather remove the image further down. Alexander 007 23:53, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

The one you added is in poor focus as well. I welcome a vote. In the meantime, let's revert the article so folks can make an informed decision. I'll trust you to do so in good faith. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 23:59, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

The one you prefer sucks :-) Who the fuck made that previous image king? It's been at the top of the article long enough. Alexander 007 00:01, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm not reverting anything. The best solution may be to find a new image. Alexander 007 00:18, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Consensus was for the prior image, so I'd hope you'd do so out of respect for that. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 00:26, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

What consensus? Jkelly didn't like it much either. That Renaissance painting is rather atypical: "Okay, that's a nice take on Dionysus. Looks like an Italian kid. Now where's the image of Dionysus?" Alexander 007 00:28, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

If you're proposing a new image, you should leave the version intact where it is, and provide a diff. That way, you demonstrate that you are trying to improve the article with your (duplicative, out-of-focus) replacement of the image you described as 'too gay'. That would go a long way towards demonstrating that you are acting in good faith. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 00:30, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Which one does it look like? The other ones have beards, while the beardless one at the bottom is Hermes. Alexander 007 00:36, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

It looks like the statue of Hermes, with the same spline pose and stand. The former image that you objected to, a painting, is more informative than the image you placed. I've got photos of Dionysus I've taken myself, I'll browse em and upload any that might help the article as well. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 00:39, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

OK, I have no problem with a new image. I and others feel the Renaissance one is too atypical. You can revert for now if you want, I'm leaving it. Alexander 007 00:41, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'm sorry you feel that way (about refusing to revert for discussion). I'm going to revert the page and return the image to the top, and make an edit to place your suggested image in the article elsewhere, and browse my photo collection for others. I hope we won't be in an edit or revert war. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 00:43, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Good choice. I like the new image. I just took the previous one from Wiki commons in haste. It wasn't really the "gayness" that bothered me with the previous one, rather the Renaissance-ness. Alexander 007 01:36, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Glad you feel that way! My sincere thanks. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:49, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

ties to christianity

I think someone who knows a little more about it than I should talk about the Orphic tradition of eating bread as the symbolic flesh of Dionysus, and drinking wine as his symbolic blood.

• I've expanded upon that section. Fascinating stuff. CanadianCaesar 21:54, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Neo-paganism section unsourced

There is no source at all for this discussion of different sects in Hellenic Neopaganism. Is this someone's first-hand reporting? Jkelly 03:17, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

"God of Wine"

I'd just like to take issue with what appears to be a gross simplification in terms of dubbing Dionysus "The god of wine". This is one aspect of a god which is, effectively, the god of the irrational. As such wine is certainly an aspect of it - wine intoxicates, hence irrational - describing him as simply a god of wine ignores the far more animalistic and instinctual nature of Dionysus. The Bacchic cults did not induce women to run through woods tearing apart animals because they'd had slightly too much sherry. Orias 09:49, 18 Nov 2005 (UTC)

I'd also 2nd this and suggest that Bacchus be used to better explain how under the Romans Dionysus lost a considerable amount of his complexity and mystery. There is no seperate listing for Bacchus in en.wikipedia.org at this time it redirects indirectly into this page. Cmcollins (talk • contribs) 16:37, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Wasn't he also a god for something else besides wine? I think I remember that it was mentioned else where I just can't remember at the moment someone please inform me if I'm wrong (Grath Longfletch 20:00, 27 February 2007 (UTC))

We \in Bulgaria\ have studied, that Dionysus wasn't "The god of wine" of the Thracians, but their major God - "The god of the sun"!!! It's The Greeks who started worshiping him as "The god of wine"! Haven't you heard that??? Please, comment on this topic :) I'm sure that we should all research more :) (82.199.193.217 22:19, 28 May 2007 (UTC)yavor)

While this is substantially late, I'm just curious: Would it be adequare to quote http://theoi.com/Olympios/DionysosGod.html when adding in things like "the god of wine, vegetation, festivity, madness, and pleasure"? It is true that Dionysos is a god much more than wine, though that seems to be one of his primary "miracles" (insert what word you will). His presence pervaded a lot of subject, like agriculture and festivals, and breaking down boundaries that existed in ancient Greece. I am trying to be NPOV here, but its been documented that he has done much more through other modes than wine. --Disinclination (talk) 17:59, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

almost certanly a late adition????

This is false. Though he was allways seen as being a late adition, never quite fitting in, evidence of his worship shows him at least as old as all other greek gods.

That sentence has been removed. Lots more should probably be removed from the article... --Akhilleus (talk) 02:05, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Christianity and Mnemonic Devices

I think it should be noted, the possibility that Paul was using Hellenistic Metaphoar when using these well known terms. Rather then inspiring Christianity, can there also be room for these allusions being explanitory instead? -- IdeArchos 16:28, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Hittites and Dionysus

Is possible that Nysa, the birth-city of Dionysus was the city Kanesh or Nesa in Eastern Anatolia? Is possible that the etymology of name "Dionysus" is "Deus (the) Nesian" i.e "God the Hittite"?

Note: The real name of the indoeuropean Hittites was "Nesites" or Nesians.

Many Greeks were sure that the cult of Dionysus arrived in Greece from Anatolia, but Greek concepts of where Nysa was, whether set in Anatolia, or in Libya ('away in the west beside a great ocean'), Ethiopia (Herodotus), or Arabia (Diodorus Siculus), are variable enough to suggest that a magical distant land was intended, perhaps named 'Nysa' to explain the God's unreadable name, as the 'god of Nysa.' Apollodorus seems to be following Pherecydes, who relates how the infant Dionysus, god of the grapevine, was nursed by the rain-nymphs, the Hyades at Nysa. The Anatolian Hittites' name for themselves in their own language ("Nesili") was "Nesi," however.

From site:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/encyclopedia/dionysus

--IonnKorr 17:12, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation?

Actually my question is about the enunciation, but that is usually specified along with the pronunciation. Anyone know if it's "dee oh NEE sus" or "dee OH nee sus" (or possibly something else I guess). — Donama 06:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

You could consult a dictionary. Most Americans say "die oh NIGH sus". Don't really know what the pronunciation is in the rest of the English-speaking world. If your question is about the classical pronunciation, it might have been something like dee OH new sohs, but replicating their accent is tricky, since it was a pitch accent, and the placement of stress is controversial. --Akhilleus (talk) 06:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

a little more balanced discussion is in order (on: Christianity section)

The section on alleged ties between Christianity and Dionysus is quite weak and one-sided. Little is said about the arguments against this view. Furthermore, couldn't views of more mainstream scholars than Mr. Larson be cited? --Killerwasp 18:13, 11 July 2006 (UTC)--

-as far as I can see, the idea christianity copied it is more of a conspiracy theory yet the article makes out that this is a widly accepted idea. You only need to look on Google and see the lack of articles on it (which if there was strong evidence of the idea being true you would hear more about it). Only reading the rest of the article you are aware of the differences between Jesus and Dionysus and that the similarities are greatly exagerated. Is it techniclly a conspiracy theory and if so, could we call it that in the article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.100.237.215 (talk • contribs) .

I agree that the article may be giving Larson undue weight. The views that the article attributes to him go well beyond "Parallels with Christianity"; if his theory that Dionysus is a "replica" of the "grand prototype Osiris" is noteworthy, it should be covered under Worship along with the possible Cretan antecedent. But I can't find evidence that this is a noteworthy view. Henrichs's article in OCD includes a paragraph on potential non-Greek "component"s to Dionysus without mentioning Osiris. Burkert in Greek Religion (p. 163) mentions Osiris only as a possible source for some aspects of Dionysus' cult from the seventh century and later: "[I]n the period after 660, the increasing influence of the Egyptian Osiris religion must be taken into account, something which can perhaps already be discerned in the ship processions of the sixth century." If there's no objection, I'll remove the discussion of Larson in a few days. EALacey 04:54, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. There is little evidence. Read the whole article. Does it really look like Jesus and Dionysus are the same? This should be deleted unless better evidence can be found. It certainly is a minority view. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.108.100.20 (talk) 23:43, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

the same, well, if brought to an extreme, no, and there is a lot of literature on the marriage of Kana and the pre-Christian era traditions. Google may not help, but so what. The Faculty of Theology Bochum (http) brought this article with many arguments and sources, and this service drew interesting parallels as well. Deleting the section is not an option, but giving a source with Dionysus stories independent from this context would be better than linking to atheist pages. --Flammingo^Hey 23:20, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Addition re Prosymnus

The following text was added today, but it wasn't properly formatted: therefore it didn't appear in the article though it did destroy the link to footnote 7. I have, for the present, reverted.

Wax Tokens of Libido, Whitney Davis "Note 34: We can be fairly sure that the pederastic-homosexual origin of the Dionysian myth of Priapus was perfectly well known: Dionysus made the fig-wood phallus (the prototype of the phallic herm) as a pleasurable (and in the event quite usable) substitute for the penis of his deceased boyfriend Prosymna (see Julius Rosenbaum, Die Lustseuche im Altertum [Halle: XX, 1839], sect. 17)."

The material may be useful, and could be added to footnote 7, but perhaps the editor would explain the initial words "Wax Tokens of Libido, Whitney Davis". Are they a reference to a book, or what? Also, what is the XX in the other reference? Andrew Dalby 10:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry, that was my addition and I did not realized it had interfered with anything. I had simply parked the text there so as not to lose it while I was gathering additional materials. Thank you for bringing it over here, I should have dome it myself from the beginning. That said, the material on Prosymnus bears quite a bit of expansion. It seems to involve a tradition of Lernean mysteries that Pausanias respected enough to mention but to specifically refrain from detailing. The story itself has less to do with sodomy (a Judaeo-Christian-Moslem term) and more to do with Greek pederasty. It seems the two topics mutually illuminate each other here. And Clement of Alexandria chimed in on this, shooting himself in the foot by informing us of a tradition which otherwise would have been quite lost. That aside, I find the style of footnoting here quite confusing, not that I mean to change anything. But why are we not using the simpler <ref></ref>? Haiduc 11:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I find it difficult too, but I haven't found the energy to change it! Do by all means add the information back into the article. Andrew Dalby 20:19, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

referencing

Has anyone noticed that there are a lot of "ors" in this article. I mean, granted these things were written a veerrry long time ago and by diferent cultures and in all of these stories have a counterpart, but it seems like just about everything written in this wikiarticle about Dionysus states that "either this or this happened" and nothing seems to be confirmed as is... or was.... or would be... DrakeKobra 20:04, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

That seems to be the general rule for mythographical writing (unless you are setting out to write a good story) since there were many different and sometimes conflicting traditions (practically every state had its own tradition of Zeus being born in that vicinity), and stories kept changing over the course of time as well, as poets told their local stories or made up new ones. Haiduc 18:42, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Epithet?

The following epithet is purported to be discussed in Jameson, in "The Asexuality of Dionysus." Masks of Dionysus. Ed. Thomas H. Carpenter and Christopher A. Faraone. Ithaca: Cornell UP, 1993. ISBN 0-8014-8062-0. 44-64: "Dionysus Khoiropsalas, for which "cunt-plucker" has been suggested, of Sicyon." This term, which doesn't appear in any literature at JSTOR, is obscure enough to warrant a reference. --Wetman 04:42, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The intrusion of this obscure reference, a ludibrium that throws no light on Dionysus, is simply a high-schooler's way of inserting a faintly prurient line into an article in which he has shown no other interest whatsoever. If Dionysus Khoiropsalas is attested at Sicyon, it will be in a published inscription, which, since it's not otherwise mentioned anywhere in the literature, needs a citation. A more authentically useful approach might be to create a Wikipedia article on Michael H. Jameson, author of the article in question. --Wetman 14:45, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Hey, that's ok. I understand that you're the King of Wikipedia and that works put out with the names of jokers like Christopher Faraone on them can't REALLY be expected to be taken seriously. It's good, at least, that someone out there's taken up the task of protecting the god's good name from would-be hooligans. Enjoy your article! --Ben iarwain 21:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Parallels with Christianity

Scholars universally reject this ridiculous idea. Dionysus was not born of a virgin, he was conceived by Zeus and Semele. He was not a life death rebirth deity. He did not turn water into wine, but rather left jars outside overnight, and wine filled them up in the morning. PLEASE fix that chapter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.177.251.243 (talk) 01:23, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay I know this is late, but one version of Dionysos' birth was that Semele was fed a concotion from Zeus that was made from Zagreus-Dionysos' heart. I'll try to get that for you/the article. You are right on the second part, though I believe the comparison is that they made wine from something else (Dionysos: nothing at all; Jesus: water). Hope that helps. --Disinclination (talk) 22:00, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Also note that deities can be constructed out of multiple other deities, so even if there are large differences between Jesus and Dionysus, the former still could have drawn from the latter. Aeonoris (talk) 08:42, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but there would be no reason to. You can make anything sound like it ripped something else off with that kind of reasoning.

Vandalism

There appears to be some large pixellated (sp?) goatse-ish picture in the "Worship" section - I'm not sure when this happened or how to revert that, but could someone address that? --Elro 01:08, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Removed from "worship" section

...and early Christianity (see "possessed by the saint"), as well as the preliminary animal sacrifice and distribution of meat to the village population, are at their origin not the Christian rites they are constructed as by the villagers who perform them, but the rites of Dionysus.<ref>[http://www.anagnosis.gr/index.php?la=eng&pageID=143 The Anastenaria: The Ancient Ecstatic Fire-Walking Ritual of Greece]</ref>

There is no "possessed by the saint" section in the Christianity article, and it is not a feature of Christianity I have ever heard of.

The Anastenaria are not only undocumented (per source) in "early Christianity", it is not even a characteristically Greek custom, let alone characteristically Christian. This is all according to the cited source, which places it strictly within small communities of Thracian refugees dating from the Balkan wars. As phrased, it's an extremely misleading passage not supported by the source in its breadth. If this belongs in the article at all -- and it probably does -- it should be in a section on modern Dionysian survivals. "Worship" is plainly the wrong place. Whatever these people think they're doing, they to not believe themselves to be worshiping Dionysus even if the Church condemns the practice as Dionysian in origin. (And as even the source states, there's no evidence of any such rite in antiquity, so this could easily be an error all around.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:47, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Parallels to Christianity

This section is written as if the issue was not in doubt, and very much needs balance.

Some of the material is very obscure. Although I can draw inferences as well as the next professional logician, I confess to being no classicist, so could someone please tell me what lines 3.690-691 have to do with this? A complaint about the length of a tale doesn't seem particularly apt. Perhaps Latin scholars can see parallels where the rest of us can't, but if so it needs to be explicated. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:12, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I tried a bit of a rewrite, but I came up against a problem. Early in the section it claims Dionysus turned water in to wine - later in the section it claims he never did. Short of removing both I can't find a way to resolve this. 199.71.183.2 20:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The whole section is poorly written, very biased, poorly referenced, and should be deleted, IMO. · AndonicO ^Talk 21:40, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Either delete it or re-write it - for a start Jesus wasn't born in a cave, to make out Dionysus was a virgin birth is really trying to twist the birth story, claims like "He stands between life and death, man and god, male and female." aren't referenced and stretching it for a parallel, since when was Jesus 'sexually ambiguous.' - there's no paralel here at all! claims like "depicted either nude or fully clothed." are also stretching it - how else are we expecting him to be depicted (and when did Jesus go around nude? He may have gone around fully clothed but then so do I and I'm not ripped off from Dionysus!) The article says Dionysus is the god of wine, so why does the parallels list say Dionysus was a death god? Jesus wasn't a sailor. "He was not an Olympian at first." and the fact Jesus wasn't an Olympian too says what? "In his worship, followers would consume human flesh, held to represent the god himself." and the evidence for this is? Finally the reference for Dionysus on a cross goes to an amulet which actually post-dates Christianity. Can we find some more credible sources to reference it to? Hardly any scholar thinks Christianity was ripped off from Dionysus yet the article does not give this impression —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.100.189.76 (talk) 13:58, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, this section is really biased-sounding and a lot like that that Zeitgeist web movie. I'm agnostic (so, no bias here), and to me many of the comparisons are really reaching. I'd knock out probably 2/3 or more of them. Maybe there are parallels, but please be more scholarly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.207.55.154 (talk) 22:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Whoever finds sources might add some of these claims (and the reference) back to the article:

• He is the son of a god (Zeus) and a mortal woman and not of his actual human father (It is not entirely clear if she might have been a virgin, the conception however was immaculate)
• The god impregnates the virgin mother without sexual intercourse. (He gives her the heart of the dead Dionysos to eat in order to impregnate her)
• He is killed and reborn. His name means "twice born". He's worshipped as a god of immortality.
• He was born in a cave.
• Right after his birth his life was threatened by a powerful ruler (Hera).
• He is sexually ambiguous. In early portrayals he has long curled hair and a pale complexion. Later, he is shown with a long beard.
• He is depicted either nude or fully clothed.
• He is a sailor and can perform miracles at sea.
• He is a death god, a god that is human, a god that brings people closer to the god of the afterlife.
• He travels and teaches people a new religion.
• He transforms the community.
• He wore a headband/crown.
• He is a god of the people and of physical pleasures.
• He is a major god and the son of Zeus, the highest ranking god. He was not an Olympian at first.
• In his worship, followers would consume human flesh, held to represent the god himself.
• He was called a king.

Some seem to be fantasy, some may have ancient sources telling us so.--Flammingo^Hey 01:04, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Thracia

Dionysos is claimed a Thracian god in Thracians page. And on Dyonisos page all is wordy and fuzzy. I remember from some turkish mithologists that D. was born in way East, ie current Iran into some people of grape vine agriculture and wine culture and traveled West, cult-entertaining the youth. 67.86.55.243 09:41, 6 November 2007 (UTC) wikici

current Iran evokes very misleading contexts. I found one unsourced claim he was born in Nysa, Anatolia, which of course even if true would only be one story among many, gods usually don't have a place of birth on Earth.--Flammingo^Hey 10:38, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

story sea voyage

From the sea voyage story, this had been tagged as unclear:Others say that Dionysus came on board after these sailors, having leapt ashore, captured him, stripped him of his possessions, and tied him with ropes they had almost succeeded. I agree, not only need some of the last words to be removed, but also there should be a quote for this, which would be easy to find (I just believe this second version was added later and would rather go for just one)--Flammingo^Hey 10:31, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, thats pretty badly worded. As far as I know, the sailors captured him to sell him back to his wealthy father, not seeing him for a god. I don't recall in the myth Dionysos just leaping in. I'll try and find it. --Disinclination (talk) 22:04, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

A good start for a genuine search would be the classical sources in translation at Theoi Project. Search "Dionysus" there and you won't have to look far. See if you can't add some text closely following a source, which you would reference using the <ref></ref> html. --Wetman (talk) 01:47, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I know of the existance of Theoi.com well. :) I found a reference for the first version of the story listed (I hope it's adequate), but nothing for the second one. I will try again later, if thats okay. --Disinclination (talk) 17:52, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Dionysos died on the cross?

I just noticed this in the article, and clicked the link. The website makes no mention of Dionysos dying on the cross (in relation to Jesus). It only makes a comparison between both dying then being reborn again. I'm going to remove it (it is/was reference 27), since it seems completely out there and there is no references to back it up (other than this Wikipedia article). Feel free to add back if you can find a reliable source. --Disinclination (talk) 22:08, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Madness

Although I kept the word 'madness' in my edit of today, I wonder if the word 'ecstasy' would be better. Myrvin (talk) 18:28, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Any opinions on this?

Well, Nysa could be the Paggaion Mountain (Homeric name: Nysa - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangaion_Hills). As for the dionysian festival, they are still intact in Greece. For example there is a festival called "Arapis" in Nikisiani (Paggaio municipality, Kavala) that many believe is a dionysian festival that survived through the christianization of the festival. You can see it at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_twl5oG2nE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.140.104.161 (talk) 17:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Date of birth

I moved this, tagged for a citation by someone, here:

"His day of birth was December 25 in the calendar we have today."

I've never seen a birthdate for any Greek god, but then I've never seen their driver's licenses either...--Wetman (talk) 07:18, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Food and drink Tagging

This article talk page was automatically added with {{WikiProject Food and drink}} banner as it falls under Category:Food or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. You can find the related request for tagging here . Maximum and careful attention was done to avoid any wrongly tagging any categories , but mistakes may happen... If you have concerns , please inform on the project talk page -- TinucherianBot (talk) 00:57, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Christian parallels

Just seen the Christian parallels discussion. No doubt these claims were poorly referenced and fuzzily argued but that is not how it has to be. In fact there is no real doubt that the Dionysus mystery religion, like the other mystery religions featuring a harrowing of Hell, was a precursor of Christianity. Nor should this be a problem for Christians. I will have to find the reference (it is discussed in Arthur Evans' God of Ecstasy but there was an early Chrisitian Jesus play overtly based on Euripedes' Bacchae. Meanwhile I refer offended Christians to the gospel of John where Jesus exapnds on the subject of how he is the vine etc.

Modern day Dionysus worship is shown perjoratively, btw, in Donna Tart's modern classic A Secret History I'll add that to the page; and maybe something about Christian connections. Jeremy (talk) 02:03, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that Tartt's portrayal is pejorative, exactly; but in any case it's hard to add that to the article without some kind of secondary source. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:31, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

This section of the article needs to be a report of what has been published in this somewhat dicey region.--Wetman (talk) 12:15, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Modern views

The paragraph beginning "Walt Disney" re-introduces the erroneous idea that 'Bacchus' was the Roman name for 'Dionysus'. This confusion was removed from the earlier versions of this article. Also, apart from calling the hero 'Hercules' instead of 'Heracles', didn't the series use the Greek names for the gods? The paragraph needs rewriting. Myrvin (talk) 09:34, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Dionysus Qingdao beer jpg

Regarding the jpg image Qingdao beer.jpg -- should the name of the artist sculptor be referenced. I selected the detail link of the image, but I could not find the name of the sculptor listed. My understanding is that any reproduction of artwork should indicate the artist, as well as the medium and the size and date of the work. tesseract501 15 September 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.130.190.180 (talk) 04:45, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure this is the most appropriate image for the article, since it is quite atypical of any traditional depictions. It is neither the effeminate Dionysus nor the bearded Zeus-like Dionysus, nor the horned Dionysus found on coins; it looks more like a Hercules than anything. Chinese beer is a rather odd connection for this article anyway... Fuzzypeg★ 01:05, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Dionysus equals Jesus Christ?!

Yeah, (hicc!) halelujaaa! Said: Rursus (☻) 12:52, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Dionysus and psilocybe mushrooms

I remember reading something from Tom Robbins suggesting that dionysus was a god of mushrooms before he was the god of wine. I know he is a fictional writer but he seems to know his stuff. Maybe someone with more experience on the subject can chime in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.111.16.118 (talk) 22:41, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Demeter as mother

I don't understand the sentence: "Diodorus' sources equivocally identified the mother as Demeter". Does 'equivocally' here mean doubtfully? I tried chasing down the Diodorus reference to no avail. Perhaps it should be 'equally'; or maybe even "unequivocally". Myrvin (talk) 10:18, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Now dug out the Diodorus page. He attributes the idea that Ceres was the mother of Bacchus to what he calls "fabulous writers". I think that means he didn't believe them. Myrvin (talk) 13:51, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Dionysus' name

In the second paragraph, it says that Dionysus was also known as Bacchus. This could be construed to mean that the Greeks also called him Bacchus. Since Bacchus is the Roman name, can this be corrected?Ykerzner (talk) 17:13, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, Dionysos was also known to Greeks as Bakchos. An ecstatic line from the lost Lykimnios of Euripides reads "Lord, laurel-loving Bakchios, Paean Apollo, player of the lyre". The line was quoted in Macrobius, Saturnalia I. 18.6, according to Karl Kerenyi, Dionysos: Archetypal Image of Indestructible Life, 1976, p. 233. Is Dionysos Bacchos specifically in his role as leader of the Bacchae in his thiasos? --Wetman (talk) 20:19, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Carl Kerenyi on Dionysus

Perhaps more should be said on Kerenyi's contributions, such as his interpretaion of Dionysus as the god of 'zoe', the concept of indestructible life without limitations. And also Herekleitos' identification of Hades with Dionysus, a relation which Kerenyi sheds light on in 'Archetypal Image of Indestructible Life' and in 'Eleusis: Archetypal Image of Mother and Daughter'. Kerenyi suggests this relation was pivotal in the Elusinian mysteries, and refers to the underworld god as 'subterranean Dionysus'. I'm not sure where to add the info - any ideas? --Kavita9 (talk) 02:42, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, unrelated to Kerenyi, I added a line about the fictional god Elua from Kushiel's Legacy after the mention of other Dionysus-inspired literature, whom I think is worthy of inclusion because of his associated traits, but I see they were removed. Does anyone have strong objections?

Under the 'Modern Views' section I would also like to add that Jim Morrison, lead singer of The Doors, found the god Dionysus to be an inspiration, and some of his lyrics contain references to Dionysian mythology.

Actually the Modern Views section looks like it needs to be cleaned up & reordered under subheadings as there's a lot of stuff there. Maybe Dionysus in Literature, Dionysus and Philosophy, etc. --Kavita9 (talk) 05:31, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I moved your insertion to Kushiel's Legacy, where it was relevant. Lists of references to Dionysus don't really illuminate the reader. Your report on what Kerenyi says, however, would be really worthwhile. Why not do that instead?-Wetman (talk) 09:42, 5 April 2009 (UTC) --Wetman (talk) 09:42, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

The Pentheus bit of the other stories section

"Because of their acts the women are banished from Thebes (the ancient Greeks did not have an equivalent of the "innocent by reason of insanity" plea), and thus Dionysus has his revenge." The italicised bit about the insanity plea: is this particularly relevant? If it is not (and I'm no authority) then it just breaks up the flow of the sentence. ?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.30.119.77 (talk) 19:00, 8 April 2009 (UTC)