Wikipedia talk:Notability (people)

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Is it sufficient to satisfy a WP:SNG without satisfying the WP:GNG to keep a biographical article?

Some weeks ago, there was a deletion discussion regarding the article Shingo Kobayashi. This person by himself did not meet the criteria of the general notability guideline. In fact, he didn't meet the general criteria of WP:BIO. But arguments in favor of keeping the article quoted the additional criteria for creative professionals, claiming that, despite being at best a key animator, the works in which this person worked are notable enough that he fulfilled the additional criteria and thus that was enough to keep the article. There is no indication that Kobayashi is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors, and there are no sources that recognize him as being the originator of a significant new concept or that he played created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work, or collective body of work that has been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews. Essentially, his work does not seem to presume that he meets the additional criteria for any biography and only allegedly meets the third point of WP:ARTIST. The closing administrator determined that there was no consensus because it was not his call to determine whether or not it was sufficient that one of his works fulfilled the criteria of the Wikipedia notability guidelines without him meeting the general notability guideline.

Thus, I would like to know what's the current consensus on this policy-related debate. Is it enough that a work from a person is relatively notable per the notability guidelines to warrant an article about said person even if he/she doesn't meet the general notability guideline or the notability (people) basic guideline? If so, what kind of creative work must the person meet to presume that he/she played a major role in co-creating, a significant or well-known work? Is it enough to be a key animator or does the person need to be director, animation director or writer? How does this apply to other fields like sports? Jfgslo (talk) 00:16, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

There was very recently an RfC about this question, at Wikipedia talk:Notability/Archive 47#Do subject-specific guidelines override the GNG. It's a topic where editors disagree quite a lot, and I'm not sure that there was really any sort of consensus there. For what it's worth, my individual opinion (your mileage may vary) is that, at least in theory, there should be no such thing as an SNG that confers notability on a subject that truly fails GNG. Instead, SNGs are intended to provide easy-to-follow guidance as to whether or not a page is likely to satisfy GNG, in cases where it may be hard to track down the sourcing needed to literally pass GNG as written (example: a person who lived before the existence of sources that are available on line, where the sources as described by GNG might require going to a library that is not practical to get to, so the SNG describes alternative sourced information that would indicate that the library sourcing does indeed exist somewhere). Thus, if a subject passes an SNG, there is a presumption that GNG sourcing exists somewhere. In practice, situations like the one you cite end up being decided case-by-case, by the consensus at the individual AfD. It would be nice to have more of a bright-line guideline, but consensus for such a bright line just doesn't exist. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:30, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I belatedly participated in the debate referred to above. My personal view is increasingly that the SNG should be designed to provide easy-to-follow guidance for classes of articles that in general, meet the GNG in order to reduce the amount of debate on individual cases, increase consistency, and allow comprehensive coverage (in principle) of some classes of people or things. But at present, some of the individual criteria in some of the SNG are not easy to follow, or are drawn too broadly and thereby include articles that, in general would not meet the GNG. I think that it's the particular criteria that are the problem here, and we should try to reword or remove such criteria. Qwfp (talk) 09:11, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

SNGs should provide likely criteria whereby a topic may not presently show that it meets the GNG but that given reasonable time and effort on the part of editors, sources can be found or will come about. It should not be the case where the SNG criteria can be met once and then no further sources to show more notability never have to be shown. If, 5 years down the road after its creation, I come across an article that meets an SNG but no effort has been shown to source it better, I will likely start calling for editing improvements or deletion process (without being BITEY about it, of course). SNGs can provide cases where the GNG can be shown to be met, but the SNG criteria require even stricter requirements; but that's not the case here with BIO. --MASEM (t) 14:53, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Is a woman who is sentenced to death in the USA notable?

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Emilia Carr has a considerable number of people who feel that being female and being sentenced to death is a definite notability criteria, though we don't appear to have a guideline on such a situation. Is the clear consensus on the AfD a local consensus, or it a wider held consensus? If it is a wider held consensus then it would be helpful to have a clause added to Wikipedia:Bio#Crime_victims_and_perpetrators, such as "The sentence for the crime is noteworthy enough to have attracted commentary from reliable sources, such as Ruth Ellis being the last person sentenced to death in the UK." SilkTork *^YES! 16:28, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I would agree with Silktork that a new clause needs to be added. It generally seems like people considers female killers sentenced to death is in fact notable in itself. In the case referred to there is other factors including the mentioned one that has made users coming to a quite clear consensus about that particular article.--BabbaQ (talk) 16:40, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

In the U.S., I don't think any kind of case has been made that this constitutes notability. This person is no Eileen Wuornos; just another non-rich convict who happens to be female. --Orange Mike | Talk 17:18, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

hmm have you actually read the article?--BabbaQ (talk) 17:33, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

A similar issue occured at the Silver Star article, with Leigh Ann Hester. While being awarded the Silver Star does not in of istelf make one notable, unlike the Medal of Honor, the fact that Monica Lynn Brown and Leigh Ann Hester were females being awarded the Silver Star was deemed by consensus to be a notable event as women usually are not in combat, and the Silver Star is only awarded for valor in the face of the enemy. While all awardees of the Silver Star are heros by definition, that does not make them notable by Wikipedia standards. Only the fact that these two women were in fact female was the determining factor in including them under "notable recipients" and in meriting their own stand-alone article. I suggest that that is a good standard for inclusion here. If Ruth Ellis is considered notable enough for her own stand-alone article, then she should certainly be mentioned here and linked. If not, then mentioning her (even in passing) is not merited. Rapier (talk) 18:32, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

It seems to me that this is a question of when WP:1E allows exceptions. I would think the decision in such AfDs would rest on whether or not the second paragraph of 1E applies to the particular page. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:37, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

There is no longer a consensus at the article that a woman who is sentenced to death is by default notable. It seems that some people think it is notable, while others don't. Our usual guide to notability is the range and depth of coverage in reliable sources, which can be done on a case by case basis, so a special clause would not be required if there is not a clear consensus that a woman who is sentenced to death is by default notable. SilkTork *^YES! 17:28, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

While I think that this particular Afd will end with No consensus, its definitly something to continue discussing as we cant have people saying a person isnt notable simply because no one has brought the subject of women on death row up.--BabbaQ (talk) 18:01, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

That's kind of what an encyclopedia is...not a platform for original research, but a compilation/summary of what can be found elsewhere. If nothing can be found out there to support your opinion, then it shouldn't appear here in the encyclopedia. Tarc (talk) 18:47, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Who cares? People get put to death all the time in the U.S. Unless this person killed like 20 people and ate them or something, it is not notable. Brittany Cintron (talk) 20:54, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I do not agree with the claims of "inherent notability" for being a female who murders someone and gets the death sentence for it, anymore than being "over 70 years old" or "being a dwarf" or "being over 6 feet 9 inches tall" and getting the death sentence for murder would grant automatic notability, when any of those sorting criteria would likely produce an equally rarity. Notability requires more than sorting criteria which produce rarity of a conjunction. Edison (talk) 05:08, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

• Does she meet the GNG? Most murderers do. Jclemens (talk) 05:13, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
  • But GNG clashes with WP:ONEEVENT, notability is more than just the GNG. In this case the coverage is minimal and entirely local, which speaks against the case being notable. Fences&Windows 05:24, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
    • Ongoing coverage of appeals is not the same event. Jclemens (talk) 05:32, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Olympians

A few weeks back, a good-faith editor nominated a number of articles on Olympic athletes (including some medal winners) for deletion at AFD. His rationale was that the athletes in question were only notable due to one event (the Games) and therefore did not pass BLP1E. All articles were kept, as our guideline with respect to notability of athletes (WP:ATHLETE) clearly states that any athlete who has competed at the Olympics is notable. Good faith or not, these AFD nominations showed that BLP1E isn't always understood in relation to other guidelines. The nominator suggested that the BLP1E entry be edited to avoid this problem again. Do we need anything more than:

"The Olympic Games are not considered a single event for the purposes of BLP1E. Individuals who have competed in an Olympic Games are considered notable pursuant to WP:ATHLETE."

Thanks. --NellieBly (talk) 23:04, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

There are more fundamental problems with BLP1E than that... but the existing guidelines already state: "if that person otherwise remains, and is likely to remain, a low-profile individual". Olympians are not low profile, full stop. The nominator should have been trouted at that point. Jclemens (talk) 23:24, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree that it should be blindingly obvious, but that argument falls flat against a nominator who thinks "high-profile" means "well-known to Americans". --NellieBlyMobile (talk) 17:52, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Agreeing with everything said above, but thinking that this is a problem which can keep coming up in different contexts without a bright-line rule. How about adding a more general statement like, "Absent exceptional circumstances, BLP1E should not be applied to an subject who meets the requirements of any of the specialized notability guidelines for individuals." Something similar for BIO1E as well. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 20:19, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

That would seem sensible to me, assuming that its necessary to be that explicit about something that would seem to stand to reason. --FormerIP (talk) 20:37, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

re state legislators

Under WP:POLITICIAN there is a note (#12) for state legislators which says "This criterion ensures that our coverage of major political offices, incorporating all of the present and past holders of that office, will be complete regardless."

Is it really a goal of the Wikipedia to have an article on everyone who ever served in a state legislature? Because that's what it says. Maybe it is a goal, but has this been thought through? I'm asking because I'm dealing with William Nutt who served as a state legislator in 1871-72 and doesn't otherwise meet WP:GNG or any other criteria. Do we really need to have articles on folks like him?

Why state legislators in particular? No objection to listing them somewhere, but an article? I don't see a state legislator as any more prominent or important than a lot of other folk, and I could see this leading to a whole lot of my-great-grandpa cut-and-paste genealogycruft (like [[William Nutt]). But I dunno. I'm just wondering what was the reasoning behind this decision. Herostratus (talk) 23:20, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Ahhh, the slippery slope fallacy, I never tire of seeing it used in an argument. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 04:56, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

The primary notability guideline, WP:Notability, makes it clear that notability is determined not by whether or not we think a subject is important but rather by "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". I was not involved in fashioning that part of WP:POLITICIAN, however, I imagine that there was some consensus that state legislators are presumed to have met WP:GNG. The example of William Nutt is actually a good example of this in that it shows that various people found him prominent enough, important enough, or "worthy of notice" enough to write about him and his achievements. Location (talk) 04:30, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Location's general point here and oppose any changes to the consensus notability guideline WP:POLITICIAN. State and provincial legislators often have a major impact on their districts, and their states or provinces. Almost invariably, they are covered in depth by reliable sources during their time of service. When speaking of 19th century legislators, these sources may not be readily available online, but the presumption of the existence of these sources is a reasonable one. In theory, it would be a good thing if we had a referenced, biographical article on every one of them throughout history. In practice, perhaps only a small percentage will have articles researched and written any time soon. That is fine. If a person, even a great-great-grandchild, is motivated to research and write such an article, so be it. Pretty much by definition, these were notable people. Let these articles stand. Cullen328 (talk) 05:01, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

See Ambrose Abbott, an article I created, to see how well-sourced an article I could create about a random 19th century state legislator. Everything I could find online at Google Books and Google News archive, as well as everything I could find at a large public library is included as a ref, and it is pretty slim.It even includes Census information, which might be considered a primary source. The only "reliable sources" are the proceedings of the legislature, which say he served for one 8 week session. Is he notable enough for an article? This guideline seems to say "Yes," with "inherent notability," which many editors hate. My reference librarian suggested that there might be more info in the state library of the state where he served, such as archives of newspapers from his district (not included in online archives I could find.) If he were just a grocer, rather than a one session legislator, there is no way he would be found notable in an AFD. See also George Herbert Babb, who served in one term of the Main Legislature 1917-1918, and 2 terms in the Maine Senate. I could find no sources for him other than the legislature sources. I could find no references about them introducing legislation, making speeches, being involved in power politics or scandals, or anything else. These articles get viewed about 100 times and 24 times per month, respectively, so there does not seem to be a great demand for such information. On the other hand, it is verifiable (like the existence of some lake or some populated hamlet), and perhaps someone in the home state of the men might in the future go to the state library and find some old print references with more coverage to expand the articles. Edison (talk) 16:50, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

"Inherent notability" for state legislators is somewhat palatable, but the vast majority of these creations will likely never evolve past a stub. Consider also cases like New Hampshire...our General Court (i.e. state legislature) has 424 members, 4th largest in the English-speaking world. I'd be surprised if even the current 424 all had pages at this time. Tarc (talk) 16:59, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

We have the advantage in Wisconsin of the existence online of the gloriously useful Wisconsin Blue Books. In many states, if no such guide exists online, they may nonetheless be available at your state historical society and the like. (I've been working on Wisconsin's late-19th- to mid-20th-century Socialist legislators, who were often carpenters, cigarmakers, housepainters, tire vulcanizers, bookkeepers and the like, sometimes otherwise non-notable and often darned hard to trace after they leave office, in part because the policy of the establishment press was often to ignore such vile persons as much as possible.) --Orange Mike | Talk 17:18, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Location about state legislators and notability. I started articles involving Wisconsin Legislators. Many of these state legislators have had some impact on their communiities. Therefore, the standard on notability and state legislators should be kept. Thank you-RFD (talk) 18:13, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

That sounds like a green light to create more stubs referenced to the state's legislative records, if no other references are obtainable. Good to know. I do expect that the electoral campaigns, political shenanigans, obituaries, local vanity biographies, Civil War histories of their service (if of that era), and other things which could flesh out such an article likely reside in the print archives of their state's archives and state newspaper morgues, regardless whether there are online sources. If Wikipedia grants blanket notability, even with slim referencing which satisfies WP:V, to legislators, hamlets, geographic dots on maps, obscure species, chemical compounds, proteins, stars, comets, etc., life as we know it will go on and the servers will not be overloaded, so long as the information is verifiable and referenced. Tarc, if it is "somewhat palatable" to you, then it suits me as well. Such stubs are at least "almanac type information" and not hoaxilicious vanispamcruftisements. Edison (talk) 04:09, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Other than the threat to create stub articles on everyone, it is really hard to come up with material (notability takes care of itself) for most of these 19th century legislators and most of the early 20th century ones, as well. That is why there are so few. What, maybe 2% of all legislators from the 1980s and earlier whose term of service did not extend to the 21st century? Max. Student7 (talk) 00:45, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

There is, I think, one very good thing about the "state legislator" rule: it is entirely objective. Either you were one or you weren't. And that is a good thing. It's kind of arbitrary, but its defensible and it saves work.

I wouldn't overestimate how important a typical state legislator is. A lot of them are just drones. Yes they vote on laws, and laws are important, but a lot of things are important, and they're just one vote, and they vote as they're told. If they're committee chairs or something that's another matter.

It's like... if you have a distinguished but typical career as a lawyer, or a doctor, or a businessman, you don't get in. But if you have a distinguished but typical career as a professor or a porn actor, you do get in. If you have a distinguished but typical career as anything and it includes a couple years down at the state house, you get in.

These're just things that were decided. Not unreasonably, and it's not a terrible thing or anything.

Here is a list of people who are, all in all and taken as an average, probably at least as notable, impactful, accomplished, and likely to be looked up in an encyclopedia as a typical state legislator:

• Vice-president of a large firm
• Executive vice-president of a medium-sized firm
• President of a firm (any size)
• Senior partner at a large law firm
• Senior surgeon at a large hospital
• State director/chairman of large charity or large fraternal-type organization
• Yadda yadda yadda

Should these people have articles? I don't know. Maybe. If state legislators do, they should, I would think.

However, I would support one immediate change to footnote #12: New Hampshire State Legislators are not covered by this rule. I am entirely serious - look into the Granite State legislature some time and you'll see why. Herostratus (talk) 05:41, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Standalone lists

This section of the guideline says: "Many articles contain (or stand alone as) lists of people. Inclusion within stand-alone lists should be determined by the notability criteria above." The remainder of the section appears to deal only with lists contained in articles.

So, how does one evaluate a standalone list for notability? The sentence above seems to be circular. My interpretation is if each person listed in the standalone list is otherwise notable, the list must be notable. On its face, that seems like an absurd conclusion because it would mean that one could almost never challenge the existence of a list article. Is my interpetation wrong, or does the guideline need to be modified?--Bbb23 (talk) 14:13, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

No, the notability of the people on the list does not impart notability to the list grouping. "List of people that wear hats" would not be notable just because you populate it with notable people. Standalone list notability has been recently discussed over at WP:N in more detail. --MASEM (t) 14:36, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I suspect that while there maybe a difference between the implementation of the standard for stand alone lists and lists of people in articles, that in fact the analysis is the same. A stand-alone list just being long enough to move out of the article which is supports. (A) For example, it seems to be standard practice that a list of notable alumni(ae) is a notable list when included as a section in an article on a school, college or university. Such included lists are notable for, it seems, two reasons: (1) it says something important about a university that it has seven Noble Prize winners (or whatever their individual notability) as alumni(ae); (2) the alumni(ae) status of the notable individuals is frequently included in reliable sources about their notable deeds (gifts, etc.), as opposed to just in their biographies. So, as for included lists, one should look for reliable sources about the topic that include X type of people as examples or secondly non-biographical reliable sources about events that include the status-in-question when mentioning the specific individuals. For example, articles about Lew Wallace as governor of New Mexico generally mention that he wrote the historical novel Ben-Hur and often mention that he was a general in the American Civil War, even though those facts are not directly germane to the topic. Thus it would be reasonable to suppose that under the topic Historical Novels a list of authors might be notable. This would be especially true if articles (reliable sources) about historical novels, such as the sixteen page Firth, C. H. (1922) "Historical Novels" Historical Association, London, OCLC 17517607, routinely discuss a selection of authors. Similarly, it would seem appropriate for an article on the American Civil War to have a list of generals, as being a general of that war seems to be a notable fact. (B) On the other hand, stand-alone lists appear to have a higher standard, as they do not have a topical article that they are supporting, but in fact they do either express or implied. Take for example a hypothetical list that may fail independent notability. For example, is "List of people diagnosed with colon cancer" notable? Questions: Do articles (reliable sources) about colon cancer generally list people by name as examples? No. Do non-biographical articles (reliable sources) about other aspects of notable people usually list their status as having been diagnosed with colon cancer? No. Does a list of otherwise notable people diagnosed with colon cancer support any concept that is true of colon cancer? No. Such a stand-alone list, were it to exist, probably is not notable. Other the other hand take, "List of animated theatrical shorts (cartoons)" which supports the less-than-fully-descriptively-entitled article Golden Age of American animation. Do articles (reliable sources) about animated theatrical shorts generally list cartoons by name as examples? Yes. Do articles (reliable sources) about other aspects of cartoonists usually include their status as having drawn/produced specific animated theatrical shorts? Yes. Does a list of otherwise notable cartoons support any concept that is true of animated theatrical shorts? Hard to say, probably not directly. I hope this helps. --Bejnar (talk) 17:06, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Mohammad Mansoornejad

Mohammad Mansoornejad (محمد منصورنژاد) is an Iranian thinker how have studied about Islam for more than 30 years. He has a PhD degree in political science from University of Tehran and during this time he studied many Islamic theological resources. His first scientific article was chosen by national conference, “Culture and Development”, in 1992, and after that he has written about 100 articles. He represented many articles in many different international and national conferences.

Books

After publishing his first book in 1998, several publishers got interested to publish his other books. So he decided to establish an independent publication for publishing his own books. He called that publication “Javan Pooya” (that means an active young person), because he usually tries to answer the questions of youth. He has written about 80 books in several subjects. Some of them are short and have few pages (less than 100 pages) and the others are longer (more than 100 pages). Some of those books contain several articles and the others are integrated. The approach of his books is usually political, cultural, or social. Moreover he focuses on answering religious questions, especially which are more challenging.

This a list of his books (Some of them):

1. Introduction to essence of criticism
2. Footprint of reason in Karbala
3. You can live like this...
4. Women, Rights, Dignity and Identity
5. Women problems, Islam and Feminism
6. Pathology of religious upbringing
7. Earthly Love
8. Wisdom in three great monotheistic religions: Zoroastrianism, Christianity and Islam
9. Religion and cultural, political and economic development
10. Thunder and light
11. Emigration and Hegira: threats and opportunities
12. Seyed heydar Amoli: From Henry Corbin’s point of view
13. Religious foundation of partyism and political participation
14. The role of humanities in software movement
15. Legislation in Islamic system
16. Ethical and mystical method of Imam Khomeyni
17. Interaction of science with politics and power
18. Separation of powers, absolute Velayate Faghih, and independence forces
19. The role of foundations of belief in knowledge development (Review of Max Weber’s theory about the Protestant ethic)
20. Religion and development from the viewpoint of some Islamic thinker: Motahary, Mesbah Yazdi, Mesbahi and Hoseini
21. Comparative study on concept of interest (maslahat) from the viewpoint of Islamic and western thinkers.
22. Variables and indexes of political science stream
23. Unite in the way of invitation and dialogue
24. The relation between religion and national security and political liberty
25. Women and Hajj: The era of Hagar and Islam

Articles

List of articles (some of them):

1. Effects of security and religion on using drugs and addiction
2. Family and Prayer
3. The Philosophy of Supervision
4. The Comparative Study of Responsibility in Western and Persian Political Systems
5. Religious Principles of Political Participation
6. The Variable and Features of Political Trends Study
7. Training In Islam, the Test of a Hypothesis: Islam Is the Advocator of Constructive Social Training
8. An Introduction to Social Education “in Concerning the Sinles Imoms’ Behaviour” or “about Islamic Fidles”
9. The Role of Educated Woman in Constitutive and Consolidating a Family
10. Islam and Power Bases
11. The Intellectual Trends in the Islamic Republic of Iran, a Critical Approach
12. An Overview of Doctor Javad Tabatabaee s Idea of Iranian Identity and Its Interaction with Islamic and Western Identities
13. The Rules and Principle of Criticism
14. A Study of the Roots of Integration among Different Iranian Religious Faiths in the Iran-Iraq War
15. Philosophy of law under two meaning
16. National security and political freedom
17. A Comparative Study of Gradation of Human Beings in the Viewpoints of Imam Khomeini and Gazzali
18. A comparative study of reason and rationals from the perspectives of Imam Khomeini and Ghazzali
19. A comparative study of Man’s Soul in viewpoints of Imam Khomeini and Ghazzali
20. Woman’s dignity in the Islamic Legal System (Contemporary Iran)
21. The Islamic System and Citizens’ Privacy
22. Introduction to political education id Fidel Imams’ Fidel Imams’ Manner
23. Is there any compatibility between Islam and democracy?

References

Ma Niayesh (talk) 21:34, 19 March 2011 (UTC)