Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football

Not to be confused with Wikipedia talk:WikiProject American football, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject AFL, or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Canadian football.

Category:Football biography using deprecated parameters

A bot request has been filed to change the coding for all 'old' infoboxes, questions & comments appreciated. GiantSnowman 15:06, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if this is related to this bot, but an editor has changed Template:Infobox football biography with the result that the some of the parentheses around the goals have disappeared, see for example Piotr Trochowski. Can anyone of the template wizards have a look at this? --Jaellee (talk) 21:22, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Reverted it as without discussion, I'll ask the editor in question why he has done it. GiantSnowman 22:36, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I was not sure if this is only a temporary change for the benefit of the bot or something else. If this is necessary for the bot to run, maybe a note should be added to the template to avoid confusion. --Jaellee (talk) 23:10, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

If that is the case, then it would be ideal for Peterb to inform us of that, and get consensus - there's a time to be bold, but messing with a template which affects tens of thousands of articles isn't it. GiantSnowman 23:13, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

The tests seem to be going very well, all things considered. Argyle 4 Life^talk 23:39, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Are we having two bots do the same task? See Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/SporkBot 3 and Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Petan-Bot task7. SporkBot was requested first, but Petan-Bot was approved first. Strange. Frietjes (talk) 16:32, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Has this happened to you?

As we all know, WP articles on persons consist of...well, information on REAL people. Hence, there is a possibility that they come in and edit their articles, nothing more nothing less.

In João Pedro Henriques Neto, apparently the player has come in and proceeded to make some wrong changes in infobox, others correct of course as he would know best. I have notified him about his wrongdoings, but i don't know whether my message will reach him as he has a dynamic IP.

Nonetheless, funny stuff and, since this is the first time i have seen this kind of "interaction" (i once read something in the Spanish version of Oleguer Presas where it appeared that "the man" himself had contributed - to the folks who know their Spanish, have a read here http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discusi%C3%B3n:Oleguer_Presas), i bring this anecdote to the force. Attentively - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 22:49, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Point them in the direction of WP:COI - revert, warn, and if needed take further. FYI, it's not that unusual to have players edit their own articles - we had Neil Wood just earlier today, and I had a run-in with Max Cream a few weeks ago! GiantSnowman 22:55, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

• Well, the stuff on Cream is hard to detect in my opinion, as he provided no summaries, Wood is definitely him (or a GREAT friend!). Furthermore, in the case of João Pedro, he has not incurred in any severe violations yet (no promotional text, no inflated stats, only some box errors), if he reads my message - in Portuguese - chances are he'll stop. - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 23:00, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

I recall Stuart Holden admiting on Soccer AM a couple of weeks back that there was some infomation on his page which he kept on deleting because it was embarresing to him but he said that the edits kept being reverted. –LiamTaylor– 23:02, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

2:38–3:02. xD Argyle 4 Life^talk 13:43, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

There is an irony in our use of that clip to reliably source said scrubbing on the article. Personally I don't think there's anything embarrassing about being a professional-level CS player who is also a World Cup-level footballer; rather the opposite in fact. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 12:24, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Brian McGinlay

Hi guys, first time editor here - please don't bite :))) I'm looking to add to the Brian McGinlay article but unsure how to proceed as lots of info seems to be suppressed already. Can anyone offer any help as to explain the withdrawal from the 1986 world cup and his 1992 retirement in a wiki-friendly way?

Cheers lads x — Preceding unsigned comment added by WeeWullieMcTavish (talk • contribs) 23:38, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

• Welcome Wullie. Just be bold in most of your edits, we are here to help mate. Cheers! --Vasco Amaral (talk) 23:43, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Greetings! To cut a long story short - make sure the information you provide is backed up by reliable sources (so that we can verify information), and write in a neutral way, without any point of view. Any further questions you need answering, just ask, we're here to help! Thanks, GiantSnowman 23:49, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Worth noting that this article is a hotspot for BLP violations, and that it's got a long history of IPs adding various bits of tabloid gossip and the like to it. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 12:20, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Brian Mullan

Can editors please keep an eye on this player's article? He broke Steve Zakuani's leg in tonight's MLS game between Seattle and Colorado, and now disgruntled Seattle fans are resorting to vandalism to vent their spleens. I've been reverting some of the more egregious changes, but I don't want to get caught out by 3RR. Thanks. JonBroxton (talk) 06:59, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Don't forget, the three revert rule doesn't apply to obvious vandalism or BLP violations. —BETTIA— ^talk 15:18, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Individual sendings off are no more remarkable that individual goals, and we don't list goals unless they were truly remarkable in their impact. It should be extraordinarily rare that a red card is mentioned: final of a major championship (Zidane, for example, or Kevin Moran as first red card in an FA Cup final)), a tackle that results in court action, and that's probably about it. Anything else is recentism and, more often than not, ire of the fans of the team fouled against (and therefore likely to be WP:POINTy). If any long-term relevance arises (whether in this case or generally), later addition is far more likely to be cool-headed, and can focus on the long term effect rather than anger at the foul or its consequences. Kevin McE (talk) 13:54, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Opening line of article

As some of you may or may not know, I do a lot of work on Algerian football and a number of Algerian footballers are born in France (the majority of our national team is actually born there). However, all these players are of Algerian descent, with either one or both of their parents being Algerian. Anyways, point I'm getting at, is that the opening line of the player articles read as such (for example): "Kamel Fathi Ghilas (born 9 March 1984) is a French-born Algerian international footballer." Personally, I don't like when it says French-born in the opening line for the simple fact that it seems like the player is not of Algerian descent and simply a naturalized citizen (like some other countries do on a wide scale). Now I know its not technically wrong to say he's French-born and frankly I have nothing against it, its just that the wording looks like it might imply something different .. and I've met a few people who think that our players are actually "ethnically French" (if I can use that term) as opposed to being Algerian born in France. I was just wondering if I'm the only one that sees it that way .. and what other users think. Thanks. TonyStarks (talk) 06:07, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

I think WP:OPENPARA point 3.2 is very usefull. Maybe you don´t remember, but we had discussed that recently, and the conclusion was to eliminate all mentioning of descent, foreign-born, and such things from the lead (first paragraph). No one is saying to ignore those facts, that can be quite usefull and informative, but they should be mentioned in the article body leaving the lead with only basic usefull information. Since we are talking about footballers, their notability is because of the sport, not because of their birthplace or ethnicity, so we should stick to the players sports nationality, and expand everything else further in article in sections like "Personal life", or "Early career". See for exemple Milan Smiljanić that I edited just now before seing this. See the "Early life" section? Anyway, ethnicities, descent, and all related issues should be added exactly there. FkpCascais (talk) 06:48, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the rpely .. from what I can tell on WP:OPENPARA, I was on the right track with my thinking. When a player is foreign-born, I usually add the country of birth in the opening brackets. For my previous example, I would have it as such: "Kamel Fathi Ghilas (born 9 March 1984 in Marseille, France) is an Algerian international footballer." That way, it still contains the info that he is born in another country but does not necessarily imply anything. Though I'm sure some will argue whether the place of birth is really relevant.TonyStarks (talk) 07:51, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Where nationality and ethnicity are concerned people will argue over anything. The solution I prefer is to remove all mention of both from the first sentence if there is any ambiguity at all, and to address the matter properly in the second or third paragraph. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 12:07, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Football League season articles formatting

Hey folks,

Any bored copyeditors fancy helping out with sorting the formatting of the various Football League season articles? They all pretty much have the same problems:

1. What should be the introduction is fenced off into a "Summary" section, occasionally with sub-headers, meaning the articles have no lead section (or only a stub sentence). This can be resolved by simply removing all the headers from the summary.
2. Many include the following boilerplate:

   The tables below are reproduced here in the exact form that they can be found at the The Rec.Sport.Soccer Statistics Foundation website^[1] and in Rothmans Book of Football League Records 1888–89 to 1978–79^[2], with home and away statistics separated.

   That just needs chopped and the reference cited normally, either by attaching it to a table or just including it in the references section.
3. Additionally, many include the following boilerplate on league structure, sometimes split into several paragraphs:

   Re-election: During the first five seasons of the league, that is, until the season 1893–94, re-election process concerned the clubs which finished in the bottom four of the league. From the 1894–95 season and until the 1920–21 season the re-election process was required of the clubs which finished in the bottom three of the league. From the 1922–23 season on it was required of the bottom two teams of both Third Division North and Third Division South. Since the Fourth Division was established in the 1958–59 season, the re-election process has concerned the bottom four clubs in that division.^[3]

   Likewise, that can simply be deleted unless it is directly related to the season in question.
4. Related to the above, they often have a <references/> tag following that. This should be deleted.

An example of the required changes can be found in this diff. The pages in question can be found in this category. Thanks!

Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 12:38, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

After further investigation, it seems some of this is due to edits made by Apanuggpak (talk · contribs). I've left him a note to this discussion. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 17:41, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Excel spreadsheet

Can anybody recommend a spreadsheet that can be downloaded to quickly calculate group tables and team positions?

Ideally, I'd like to be able to add the group's teams, then the spreadsheet would generate a match list based on number of games played and allow me to input scores. The results would then be used to create a group league table with teams in their final positions. TheBigJagielka (talk) 18:27, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Would this help? [1] Delusion23 (talk) 00:13, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, thanks! TheBigJagielka (talk) 02:19, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Football player notability

Just to let people know that a discussion on football player noltability has started here [2]. Delusion23 (talk) 22:36, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

I'll watch this one with interest considering that I've received flak for having the audacity to follow the criteria laid out at WP:NFOOTBALL. Relaxing the rules even further doesn't appeal to me. Under the proposal put forward in the link provided, players who appeared in the Liechtenstein Football Cup in 2010 would be deemed notable. Fully professional leagues is as low as it can get, in my opinion. Argyle 4 Life^talk 23:36, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree. If anything, the rules need strengthening. Though they also need clarifying and enforcement. Delusion23 (talk) 00:15, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Definitely. FkpCascais (talk) 06:55, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Total nonsense. The current zealous enforcement of the fully-pro suggestion as a guideline does a grave disservice to our coverage of perfectly notable leagues like the Scottish First Division. The problem is that people can't seem to be able to use common sense and need everything cast in stone for them. That's not how the rest of the encyclopedia works, so God knows why people insist on it here. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 17:47, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

"For English eyes only"

Has anyone of you 38-yearish editors (as myself) heard of this guy (see here http://www.foradejogo.net/player.php?player=195806100001)? According to the link, was part of a couple of Premier League squads with Everton and had five seasons (some solid) in my country's Primeira Liga.

Remember him quite well, funny to find he does not have a WP article, SOCCERBASE.COM apparently also does not seem "to care". Attentively logging off - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 22:55, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

A former York player I see so I'll have to dig some information out on him sometime. Mattythewhite (talk) 23:17, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

He was before my time, but here is his page at Post War English & Scottish Football League A–Z. As far as I can tell, Soccerbase still only goes back to the mid-1990s when it comes to tallying up appearances and goals for individual players. Argyle 4 Life^talk 23:21, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Loan/Buy during season

If a player is loaned to a club and he signs permanently, does that take effect immediately or when the transfer market opens? For example, Hameur Bouazza was loaned to Millwall in the Championship from French club AC Arles for 6 months. However, Millwall just signed him on a permanent basis, with the season still running. Does that mean he's still on loan until the end of the season (joining them permanently on July 1) or does that mean he's a Millwall player? The reason I ask is mainly for his stats for the rest of the season (whether they are listed under the loan to Millwall or not). Thanks. TonyStarks (talk) 05:12, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Depends what Arles did. John Carew was on loan for the rest of the season from Aston Villa to Stoke City, but Aston Villa curtailed his contract. As he was out of contract, he could be signed outside the transfer window, so Stoke took up the contract for the remainder of the season. Have Millwall signed Bouazza permanently as of now, or have they signed a pre-contract agreement? Assume nothing, check the details in reliable sources. Kevin McE (talk) 05:56, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure to be honest .. I tried to contact the user that made the edit but he seems convinced that the transfer takes effect immediately. See here for more info: [3].TonyStarks (talk) 10:05, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

What do reliable sources say about the situation? GiantSnowman 16:02, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Renaming a Category

How do I rename Category:Hyde United F.C. players to Category:Hyde F.C. players because the club changed their name from Hyde United to Hyde, regards, LiamTaylor 14:05, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

WP:CFD. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 14:09, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, much appreciated. LiamTaylor 15:44, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Match Stats on Infobox

Just a quick question. When you update stats on the infobox should you update pcupdate = with the date you update it on or the date of the last game stats were taken from.20:13, 26 April 2011 (UTC)Warburton1368 (talk)

The day you updated it. You can get the exact time by adding five tildes (~~~~~). Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 20:18, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks20:24, 26 April 2011 (UTC)Warburton1368 (talk)

But don't forget to include an edit summary telling other editors which game you're updating the stats for "(game vs Example FC, 1 Jan 2010)" or something. JonBroxton (talk) 20:24, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Template:Captain

Is this really necessary? Digirami (talk) 00:07, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Didn't we agree at some point not to use this symbol? In any case, I agree that the template is completely unnecessary. Sir Sputnik (talk) 01:01, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, we did agree not to use that symbol. We just use captain. JonBroxton (talk) 01:36, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

That's what I thought. It is now up for deletion. Digirami (talk) 14:58, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Diego Fagundez

Can an admin please re-create this article for me? He made his fully pro debut tonight for New England Revolution in the US Open Cup - confirmation is here: [4]. Thanks! JonBroxton (talk) 04:14, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Done :) —BETTIA— ^talk 09:53, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Infobox football league and federations

There is a discussion about whether the |country = parameter in the Template:Infobox football league may link to the sanctioning federation rather than the country. The precedent seems to be country only but the linking to the federation makes imminent sense. The discussion is happening on Talk:North American Soccer League (2011). There is also a request on the template page to add federation as a separate parameter. Input would be appreciated. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:21, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

If including the federation in the infobox occurs, another point to consider is whether to list only the federation from league's country of origin or to list all federations that that sanction their teams to participate even if its in a foreign league. Examples seen in List of association football clubs playing in the league of another country. --Blackbox77 (talk) 14:44, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

The stat itself should refer solely to the federation, and I'd be happy to alter the template to that effect. Having two parameters is overkill here IMO, and likely to lead to nationalist edit warring (as if we need any more of that). Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 18:17, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Team flags?

Is there any consensus for "team flags", such as seen on List of winners of J. League Division 2 and predecessors#Total Wins? I would presume not, but I'd like some opinions before I remove all these. They are also used on many maps (via {{Team flag location}}), such as {{Japan football clubs map 2010}}. The "team flags" are so tiny, they are useless—the convention of distinguishing between tiny, tinier, and tiniest to indicate division 1, division 2, etc. seems especially poor. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:47, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

But wait, there's more! I see there is an entire set of these on Commons (see commons:Category:Fantasy football flags and commons:List of 600px association football flags), and usage on en.wiki isn't limited to the Japanese leagues I found above. See 2009–10 Eccellenza, for example. They seem to be used frequently on other wikis (e.g. it:Serhij Rebrov) but do we really want these...? Many of the images are described as "fictional" flags on the Commons image description page. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 19:00, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Those Japanese ones all seem entirely fictional. They need to go, period. JonBroxton (talk) 19:22, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

If anyone has the time, it would be well worth taking a fine-toothed comb to the contributions of anyone involved in that category. Tons of other nonsense will probably get found. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 19:54, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Ha, looks like something from Football Manager or similar... GiantSnowman 00:28, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

It turns out that there wasn't "tons of other nonsense", just a few kilos. ;) I wrote a Perl script to query the Commons category, and then query for all en.wiki mainspace articles that used each of those fantasy flags. The result was a list of 74 articles, most (but not all) football related. I could use some help in cleaning these up. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:35, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

On a related note, what's up with the use of File:The death.svg in sports articles? – PeeJay 20:21, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I guess that a number of editors felt an ambiguous image displayed a club going out of business better than a clear footnote. I've removed the flags from a few articles, but most of the Japan-related ones are templates created by this person. Some of these articles are woeful, especially this one (OR and POV overload). Argyle 4 Life^talk 21:26, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

A-League & K-League and probably articles related to them though I haven't bothered to check. Rabbitjumpz (talk) 13:32, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I removed a lot of these today, but I'm starting to get some of the inevitable pushback from inexperienced editors. Additional eyes on these articles would be welcome. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 23:01, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

National team recent call ups

Should players that have announced their retirement from international football be added to the current squad or recent call-ups list. In the Mexico national football team article I've been removing international retired players from the list but some IPs keep adding them back. I even left a hidden message saying to not add retired players but an IP changed the message and said to not remove them. GoPurple'nGold₂₄ 22:39, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

If a reliable source verifies that a player is no longer a national team member, then they should obviously not be listed in the 'Current squad' - keep on reverting, keep on warning, and maybe apply for some page protection till they eventually get the message. GiantSnowman 23:27, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

There are reliable sources for Óscar Pérez and Guillermo Franco. These are the two players Ips are adding back on the recent call-up list that have announced their retirement. GoPurple'nGold₂₄ 23:36, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

If they retired, then GiantSnowman is right, do not list them in the Current Squad section. But, I see no reason why they can't be listed in the Recent Call-ups section. After all, its just a list of people who have played/called-up for the team in the recent past. Retired players certainly fit into that category. Digirami (talk) 02:28, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Exactly .. I tend to keep retired players on the recent call ups section for 6 months or 1 year, depending on the number of matches the team has played since the retirement (and the number of new players called up, etc.).TonyStarks (talk) 02:53, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Post-season play-offs

Hi there. Do end of season play-offs, like the spareggio formerly used as a tie-breaker in Serie A (in 2004–05, for example]] and the post-season promotion play-offs in the Football League count towards league appearances for the purposes of player infoboxes? I'm quite sure it's established one way or the other, but I don't know which way. Thanks. † Omgosh30 † 00:12, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Nope, they don't count as 'League' stats, they would come under 'Other' in stats tables and the like. GiantSnowman 00:26, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I thought in some leagues they do count? Can't remember which league it was exactly .. but if I'm not mistaken, in Belgium they are counted. Not 100% sure though so don't quote me on this. TonyStarks (talk) 02:51, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Tommy Gemmell (footballer born 1930)

FYI, someone wants to overwrite Tommy Gemmell (footballer born 1930) wiht user:Truste56/Sandbox2. See user talk:Truste56/Sandbox2

65.94.45.160 (talk) 04:45, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Oooh, isn't it lovely?

Another shining example of how football unites people...in VANDALISM!!

FC Barcelona won against Real Madrid, but players on both sides, Sergio Busquets and Pepe, are being treated to a dose of industrial idiocy. And Marcelo did strike the former's face, so he did not feign anything there (unlike the incident with Thiago Motta).

Speaking of SOCCER, no words for Lionel Messi and, on the negative side, no words for José Mourinho and his whining (and i am Portuguese, and not a Barcelona fan, do not support any club). Returning to paragraph#1, like i said, "lovely", i have already requested admin action on both articles.

Attentively - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 14:44, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

• P.S. My finger hurts from clicking "undo"... - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 14:46, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Peter Dubovský

In a non-vandalic approach, can someone tell me if i am doing the correct thing?

I spent the last hour improving this player's article (what a strange death man! RIP) and something struck me as illogical: the Slovak League begun in 1993/94, he moved to Real Madrid after 1992/93, so he never competed in the new league, how could have he won the award for Player of the Year in said competition? Like i said, illogical.

If anyone has anything to add to my last edits, especially regarding this contents, please do so. Attentively - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 15:03, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

A lot of footballer of the year awards include players playing abroad: the most recent winners of that one play for Liverpool and Napoli. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 15:36, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

• Yes i understand Art. It's just that the sentence before my edits read "In 1993 he became the first Player of the Year of the newly-formed Slovak league...", hence i saying it looked illogical. Thanks for the input. --Vasco Amaral (talk) 15:40, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Change it to "...he became the first footballer of the year in the newly-independant Slovakia", or something. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 16:02, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Spam?

[5] -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:42, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Possibly spam, definitely one of the WP:LINKSTOAVOID (crits 1, 11 and 13, possibly 4). —BETTIA— ^talk 20:12, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

The site could be useful, but I'm not sure how accurate the info is. I just did a quick check based on Chippenham Town F.C.. If the external link stays then the direct link for the club should be added (e.g. [6]). The graph, sequences, and heaviest defeats etc seem quite useful, and on first glance this information was not easily to hand from the Chippenham site. The text section though had come from Wikipedia. Eldumpo (talk) 10:13, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

If it's reliable, it could possibly be used as a reference, but not as an external link. —BETTIA— ^talk 15:44, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Why not an external link, if it's useful/reliable. Eldumpo (talk) 13:05, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

2010-11 Supercopa de Espana

First leg on the right side should be "Real Madrid vs. Barcelona" and the reverse in the second leg since Madrid won the copa del rey, whose winner always have the first leg at home. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.74.170.145 (talk) 08:11, 29 April 2011

Notability

Are players like Dominik Kaiser, Nicolas Höfler, Jaineil Hoilett, Jürgen Rittenauer or Michael Esser (all of them only played Regionalliga or below so far) notable according to your guidelines? --Ureinwohner (talk) 11:36, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

No, they aren't; players usually need to have played at least one match in a fully professional league to be deemed notable, which would be 3rd Liga or above for players active in the German leagues. --Soccer-holic^{I hear voices in my head...} 11:45, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Or they need to meet WP:GNG. GiantSnowman 12:48, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

• Yes SNOWMAN! There was a guy (i miss his name right now) from Togo national team who had never competed in higher than the French SIXTH division (!), but he did make it to the 2006 FIFA World Cup, hence "meriting" the WP article. - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 13:26, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

• Richmond Forson is the "culprit"'s name... - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 13:28, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Heysel Stadium disaster#Teams affected by the ban

What are people's views on this list of teams that missed out on playing in Europe because of the ban on English clubs. For 1985-86 it's fair enough as those teams were all set to compete, but after that it's a bit more arbitrary to me as the ban was in place and known about. What did UEFA do about the coefficients during the ban. Was England included in the coefficient list during the ban? It basically seems to be an assumption based on if English teams performance had continued at the same level as it had up to the ban, and I think at the very least, qualifying statements should be added to the text. Any thoughts? Eldumpo (talk) 12:45, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

The English coefficient was wiped out after they re-entered Europe: not ranked in 1990, then ranked on the basis of one year's results in 1991. When they were readmitted in 1990/91 they only had the minimum number of places (one for the EC, one for the ECWC, one for the UEFA Cup), and lost one of those (the EC place) because Liverpool (the English league champion in 1990) were banned for an additional year. Any assertion of "who would have qualified in season xx/xx" is based either on the counter-factual assumption that the Heysel ban never happened or was lifted earlier. You could have different possible assertions: one with the "normal" number of European places, or one with the reduced number of places. You also don't know how well English clubs would have performed in European competitions if they had been allowed to enter, which would have affected their allocation in the following seasons. You could also have a scenario where only Liverpool were banned and the rest of the teams allowed to compete. It strikes me as being original research to justify any assertion of who would have qualified in a certain season. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 16:07, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Original research is the exact same thing I was thinking, especially without any source being quoted. Brad78 (talk) 22:50, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Yep, agree with Brad - I have removed the section as unreferenced. GiantSnowman 23:00, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the responses/action. The reason I came across this issue is season articles such as this [7] and this [8], which include the spurious information as notes and highlights. Eldumpo (talk) 12:41, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

RFC on infobox parameters

This RFC could affect tens of thousands of player infoboxes, any input appreciated. GiantSnowman 13:26, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

More notability

Can anyone explain to me what is the meaning/purpose of this cat (please see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Turkey_A2_international_footballers)? I am at a total loss... --Vasco Amaral (talk) 13:30, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

It lists players who have played for the Turkey A2 national football team, which is Turkey's equivalent of a B-side. GiantSnowman 13:33, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Paul Ince

He's reportedly the England national football team's first black captain, I know he was born in London but where were his descendants ancestors from? Trinidad? Barbados? TheBigJagielka (talk) 13:49, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

A pedant writes: surely you mean his ancestors, not his descendants........? ;-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:58, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

According to List of Eastern Caribbean people, his parents are from Barbados. However, this is unsourced. —BETTIA— ^talk 15:40, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Both this forum and this forum say that Ince's ancestors were from Barbados AND Trinidad + Tobago; however, they are of course by no means reliable. GiantSnowman 15:57, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Part of why I was asking, it just seems unusual for it not to be mentioned anywhere. TheBigJagielka (talk) 15:59, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Helmuth Duckadam

Any "old" editors out there? Regarding this player's height, all i can say is that i remember his European Cup exploits, but 25 years is too much to say i know whether he was 1,75 or 1,93 (the former being a short height for a GK, i'll admit it)...

However, all of the available links say he is 1,75 (including one ROMANIAN!) and the height keeps being changed, without one word in summary and i am getting a little fed up. I remember someone telling me in the past something about VERIFIABILITY, meaning we should go with the sources available, when it's all that we have.

Please, don't just reference the 1,75 with the links, that solves nothing, the (possible) vandals, most of them anon - but i have just sent a message to User:Narcis90, who was also "kind" enough to "offer" Duckadam a goal for Steaua in his box! - will continue to do their deed whether the height is ref'd or not. Attentively - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 15:34, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

• P.S. The Romanian article says he's 1,93, and also offers article regarding the reference attached to goal for Steaua, will later try to read it closely (it's a latin language) to see if i can make anything of it. But the height, as we all know, could have been changed by ANYONE! - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 15:37, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

If reliable sources say that he is 1.75m tall, then he is! Don't forget, people were shorter in the olden days... GiantSnowman 16:01, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

• The goal is correct, have just read article (see here http://cupadelegenda.gsp.ro/stiri/17/cum-era-sa-ramina-duckadam-fara-mina.htm - in the very last lines), but it has to be in the cup, links #1 and #2 don't show anything in his league stats, thus added storyline (with ref) and category ("Association football goalkeepers who have scored"), but removed goal in box.

Also tried to find refs for his supposed run-in with The Man, popular belief has it to be true, he had his hands broken shortly after the EC Final, rather than the "blood disorder" which appears in the text (or maybe both?). It was once inserted here, but i removed it (2 years ago maybe) on the grounds it was not sourced and it was a rather "hot" topic. Now, all i can find in the web are texts which probably stem from what once "existed" in the wiki-fields... - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 17:17, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

scottish pioneer Jack Diment

He played in the first years of the italian championship, coming from Newcastle, the problem is we ignore when he was exactly born and died; do you have books where there are informations? 93.56.60.139 (talk) 08:08, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

No record of him ever playing in the Football League, so he's unlikely to be covered in any English books I'm afraid. Maybe he played in Scotland. What makes you think he was Scottish if he was born in Newcastle..........? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:23, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Think he means coming from Newcastle the club, not born in... cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:26, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

exact, the few sources we have say he was born in Scotland and he played for the Newcastle club.. if somebody has a book about that club maybe there is written more about this player, he played "only" for Juve and Milan.. 93.56.25.13 (talk) 20:07, 30 April 2011 (UTC) I tried at british consulate but people don't give me informations about personal datas, also if he is dead..

He may possibly have signed for Newcastle (not confirmed) but he definitely never played in The Football League for them (or any other club), so you can put his Newcastle stats as 0 games and 0 goals - source: Michael Joyce, "Football League Players' Records 1888–1939" -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:30, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I could also be an amateur club from Newcastle. Wasn't Italian football amateur in those days? It's highly likely he didn't go to Italy to play football but for other reasons Cattivi (talk) 20:47, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Definitely didn't play in the Football League for Newcastle. Joyce's book is as definitive as you can get and I couldn't find him in there either. RSSSF says he was at Newcastle in 1904 and joined Juventus in 1905. Argyle 4 Life^talk 20:50, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

The best place to look for information about him would be the Turin or Milan city archives. In the Netherlands it would be easy to find him .You search for his address in the Dutch FA records, and then search the city archives. But usually you have to go there and look for yourself, or pay an archivist to search for you. I don't know about the situation in Italy. Cattivi (talk) 21:01, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

in Italy, if you want know when a person was born and dead you must have suspects he is dead (some people aren't happy to discover other people are investigating about them ;)..) otherwise people at the city archive can deny datas; then if the person wasn't italian or the city isn't italian today (for example now the city is in Slovenia) the research is still more difficult if not impossible; then if the person was born for example in Rome you must go only in Rome (Italy isn't so little as you imagine, believe me!) and so on.. in few words, searching in city archives is a lot difficult. Really a lot. The only chance is finding datas in a scottish city archives: if we find Jack Diment was dead on January 1, 1981 in a little village in Scotland, reading obituaries we can have more informations.. 93.56.58.72 (talk) 09:06, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

He's also not listed at the toon1892 stats website [9] which additionally confirms he did not play an FA Cup match for them, but it doesn't mean he wasn't on their books. He may have played reserve matches for Newcastle. Eldumpo (talk) 09:30, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

There appear to be four records of people called Diment being born in 1881 in the UK Register of Births, Marriages and Deaths, but you have to pay to view the full details. -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:44, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

• There are no results in the free part of ScotlandsPeople for "Diment" between 1895 and 1905. It doesn't strike me as a common name at all. I wonder if he changed his name after moving to Italy? Jmorrison230582 (talk) 18:47, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe the name was changed, it happened in the fascist age but only for given name (so George Bush became Giorgio Bush) and surnames from East Europe, because we had (and we still have) problems with those surnames, Antonio Vojak became sometime Vojach in the same article.. 93.56.57.180 (talk) 22:35, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

There are two records on that site of births with the name Diment between 1880 and 1890, presumably one of these is our man, maybe he moved to England before 1895. Again, though, to view the full details requires payment -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:51, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Maybe this is him...........? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:16, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

That Jack Diment's casualty details are here. -- Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 17:35, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

in the photo where there are little kids, the first, Percy Maspero, had italian origins, so maybe there is another explanation for his years in Italy.. 93.56.58.248 (talk) 19:19, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

According to Iffhs, he was Scottish. If Iffhs states that, we can be sure that it's the truth. They are the best football experts in the world, in my opinion. --VAN ZANT (talk) 19:34, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Hmm 10-20 years ago maybe. I know their Dutch contributor, he hasn't worked for them in ages. Diment isn't really a Scottish name. There are 5 Diments in the 1891 Scottish Census: George, Margaret (parents?) John Archibald and George. The search for Diments living in Newcastle in 1901 gives very similar results. George, Margaret, John, Archibald +Thomas and Robert (born after 1891) This could mean he (John or 'Jack' ) was born in Devon ca.1886 (If this doesn't violate GOO....)Cattivi (talk) 01:36, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

John or Jack was born in 1881, maybe he isn't in 1891 census because he lived out his family (he was 10 years old, maybe he lived in a college) and in Newcastle in 1901 because maybe in that year (he was 20 years old) lived in another city, Sunderland? London? If somebody on en.wikipedia works at UK census offices and he can legally search it we could find the solution.. 93.56.56.153 (talk) 05:39, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Squeezed infoboxes

From time to time I found some infoboxes literaly squeezed... I allwys wandered who was loosing time doing that to our poor infoboxes, but I found the "guilty one"!: User:Nameless User. I found him trough this and this edits... I supose he has some bite-to-bite price for internet, so getting the articles down to less possible bites saves him money... Or, is it something else? FkpCascais (talk) 08:43, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I've asked them to stop. Apart from the apparent pointlessness of editing just to remove spaces, if there's no spacing at all, it makes the infobox very difficult to work with. Hopefully they'll listen. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:23, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't like it when users move the | to the end of the line, instead of leaving it at the beginning of a new one. It just looks untidy to me. TheBigJagielka (talk) 16:23, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Agree TheBigJagielka, I was also deeply unhappy to see infoboxes in that situation. FkpCascais (talk) 18:36, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

• This user writes zero summaries and, from what i can see, also does not respond to talkpage messages. - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 18:11, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

He has done some usefull edits (Nameless User), and he is definitely not a vandal, however big changes and no summaries is definitely bad.

PS1: Thanks Struway! FkpCascais (talk) 18:36, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

PS2: @Vasco, just as curiosity, why you allways use * instead of ::: when commenting? FkpCascais (talk) 18:38, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

• Just a technique to separate my comment from the last one. From what i see, there are others... - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 19:01, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Death!

1926–27 Prima Divisione#Group_D - love the "creative" icon used there....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:41, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

HAHA! Wow... what is it even supposed to mean? Digirami (talk) 20:13, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Haha..."creative", or "destructive"? :D FkpCascais (talk) 20:18, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

That cheered me up. Very good. Argyle 4 Life^talk 20:42, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Hey, the guy has been cutting heads in a number of leagues in several wikies, check out the file links and global usage! FkpCascais (talk) 20:57, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

But his victims are definitely mostly Italian. Calcio Mussolini? FkpCascais (talk) 21:01, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

FkpCascais - be very careful what you write in your edit summaries. I would also advise you not to compare fellow editors to Mussolini... GiantSnowman 21:04, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Chill out Snowy, it´s weekend... after all the template its kinda joke. And I never compared an editor to Mussolini, how you concluded that? I was talking about the template. FkpCascais (talk) 21:09, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, realised that soon after I posted. However, my warning about putting stuff like "nasty bastard" into edit summaries is not suitable - you may simply be personifying a template, but it could quite easily look like an attack on a fellow editor. GiantSnowman 21:12, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

OK Snowy, I´ll be good! I think the template picture is named Evil bastard or something similar in some video game from where it was probably taken, so that is why I said it... I would never say something like that to somebody personaly, I´m more classy ;) FkpCascais (talk) 21:19, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

PS: Just fyi, I love Italy and Italians. Ah, and specially Italianas, the most beautifull woman in the universe! FkpCascais (talk) 21:21, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Another useless template...?

Have a look at this one that was obviously copied from the Spanish wiki. Digirami (talk) 20:15, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

If we look at a discussion about this template from January 2011, general consensus held that it would never be used, and it is therefore obsolete. Maybe take it to TfD? GiantSnowman 20:24, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Looks rather redundant to me. Argyle 4 Life^talk 20:30, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Up for TfD now. Digirami (talk) 20:49, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Bot request

FYI, I had filed a request here, but appears another bot was fast-tracked and approved before me, although I did file first. In any event, I am still seeking approval, since the category may fill up again in the future due to inadvertent reversions, intermingled vandalism, cut-and-paste from other wikis, etc. Thanks! Plastikspork _―Œ^(talk) 20:46, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Nikola Vujadinović

Some IP is insistently making troubles in this article. What to do? FkpCascais (talk) 21:11, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

WP:RPP and/or WP:AIV. GiantSnowman 21:14, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Choosed the second option by now. Let´s see. Thanx! FkpCascais (talk) 21:29, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

italian english pioneers

you haven't this article and this other :).. both the players had italian father and english mother.. 93.56.58.72 (talk) 09:17, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Transfers (that don't happen)

User:Myrmecophagous has removed, in Gerard Deulofeu, a bit (which i did not insert in the first place, i only improved its display) where interest from Premier League teams occurred, the bit being REFERENCED.

My doubt is: why should it not be mentioned if it's ref'd? It adds to the player's career, and it's not POVish or WEASELish methinks. The user mentioned above (which i have notified about the discussion), when removing went as far as to call it NONSENSE, and also removed my previous message to him summarily from his talkpage, without one word of feedback..."Great" teamwork.

In a similar case, i think the Everton affair with João Moutinho (which amounts to several lines in his article and 3 or 4 refs), and the transfer finally did not happen. Before an edit war arises, inputs please.

Attentively - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 19:59, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I suppose it depends whether it is transfer tittle-tattle (speculation) of the "x club is interested in y player" variety, or an actual publicly disclosed offer that was made and the deal did not go through for whatever, again publicly reported reason (failed medical, fee too low, contract not agreed). Jmorrison230582 (talk) 20:19, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Stuff like this is not encyclopaedic in any way, shape or form. Myrmecophagous has a valid reason to remove it. Argyle 4 Life^talk 20:29, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

• OK i'll remove it. But his actions (removing my message from his page, not one word in return), really "classy", indeed. Thanks for your inputs Argyle and JM, happy week - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 20:39, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure why he removed a comment by you from his talk page, I'd only do it when putting it in an archive, but to each their own. If an official approach had been made and it was covered in reliable sources then it could be included, but the "story" in the Mirror is just typical tabloid speculation. Argyle 4 Life^talk 22:07, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Unused World Cup brackets

I found these template brackets that I think I've seen used at the 2006 FIFA World Cup for a brief moment in the past (and if I remember correctly, they were turned down).

• Template:Round16-waiting
• Template:Round8-waiting
• Template:Round8-with third-waiting

I've checked their "what links here" for each template and they aren't being used. Do they serve a purpose? Can they be proposed for deletion? --MicroX (talk) 02:04, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Chris Sharpe

Has Chris Sharpe (ex Blackburn, Southampton, Chesterfield, B1909 Odense, Viborg FF, Køge Boldklub, Colorado Rapids [10]) ever played in a fully professional league? Hack (talk) 03:22, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

No record of him playing professionally in England, certainly........ -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:44, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

In his two seasons at Southampton, he made a solitary reserve team appearance. -- Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 09:39, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

No apps in MLS either, per this. GiantSnowman 18:03, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

According to the Danish wikipedia, he played four times for Køge in the Danish 2nd division - not much else it would appear... Hack (talk) 01:29, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

How POVish is this (not)?

Vandalism has been afoot in Pepe's page. This not being vandalism, i would like to hear the force's opinion regarding this edit's validity (please see here http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pepe_(footballer_born_1983)&diff=427003055&oldid=426917950):

1 - a YouTube video, nothing more needs to be said, except this: a YouTube video that prior to Pepe's challenge, shows a Sergio Busquets tackle on Xabi Alonso, for "comparison" purposes; 2 - a Real Madrid press release (do you think the Real Madrid's website has ever chosen sides in their lives?!).

I think with the info available ("Pepe played as defensive midfielder", "he was sent off for a challenge on X against Barcelona") is more than enough, no POV, just the facts. If we get a source surrounding the fairness of his dismissal, it has to be an independent one.

Attentively - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 15:45, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

• From what i see from User:Hoising's contributions, the same (well not the same, related as both were the ones involved in that play) has been done in Daniel Alves, just a briefing. I am going to send him a message. - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 15:52, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

We should try to remain as neutral and factual as possible. GiantSnowman 18:04, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and using YouTube clips of football games as evidence massively contravenes "no original research". GiantSnowman 18:05, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Zaire 1974 World Cup squad player names

Would anybody object if I changed the Zaire 1974 FIFA World Cup squad players to show their names in the correct (English) order? Many of them are listed as Surname Firstname (the format frequently used by French sources). See fifa.com TheBigJagielka (talk) 19:34, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

WP:BEBOLD and use the WP:COMMONNAME. GiantSnowman 19:44, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, please change it. Many other languages use the surname+name formate, Hungarian for exemple, but we allways change it to Western order. I think we should allways avoid using hu:Puskas Ferenc instead of Ferenc Puskas, for exemple. FkpCascais (talk) 20:26, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Not always - what about Park Ji-Sung? GiantSnowman 20:49, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, you´re absolutely right, I forgot the Far East language names, namely Chinese, Korean and some other Indochinese languages... FkpCascais (talk) 22:02, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

I have now done it, could an admin please move Ilunga_Mwepu to Mwepu Ilunga ? TheBigJagielka (talk) 20:53, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Done. Number 57 21:15, 2 May 2011 (UTC)