Talk:Nelson Mandela

Edit request on 3 July 2013

The paper by Professor Stephen Ellis (Vrije Universiteit, Amsterdam, and former editor of African Affairs, London), "The Genesis of the ANC's armed struggle, 1948-1961" in the Journal of Southern African Studies, 2011 - available online from the Taylor & Francis website - establishes from archival sources that Nelson Mandela was a member of the South African Communist Party in the period 1960-62, which was itself the founder in that period of Umkhonto we Sizwe (MK). Ellis established that all members of the ANC who founded MK were members of the SACP at that time. He developed his studies in his book External Mission: The ANC in Exile, 1960-1990 (Jonathan Ball, Johannesburg, 2012, and Hurst & Co, London, 2012, due for publication by Oxford University Press USA in the United States later this year. Further confirmation will appear in the study by Professor Irina Filatova and Professor Apollon Davidson, The Hidden Thread, due for publication by Jonathan Ball in South Africa later this month. Both authors are senior Russian scholars. Their book is based on research in the archives of the former CPSU in Moscow.

Wikipedia's citations on this matter, in particular the authorised biography by the late Anthony Sampson, are out of date and unreliable.

I assisted Professor Ellis in his researches on this subject in the Stasi archives in former East Berlin in March last year.

I had a letter on this subject in the New York Review of Books, 6 June 2013.

- Paul Trewhela, Aylesbury, Britain

90.218.19.103 (talk) 08:56, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the note about this. We'll have to look into it. Bear in mind that how to balance new claims with prior consensus is always tricky on Wikipedia, so including information about this may be a gradual process. In the meantime, can you link to any news stories/reviews/etc. about these books? It would help to show what impact Ellis' work is having. -- Khazar2 (talk) 11:39, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I concur with Khazar; thank you for posting on this issue! It is certainly something that should be looked into. However, I also concur with them on the fact that we must determine what impact this new research has had in the field of South African history studies; for instance, are there any academics that challenge these ideas ? Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:41, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

What exactly is the addition to the article that you're requesting? That Mandela was the founding commander of MK or that he was a SACP member isn't a revelation, in fact it's fairly generally known. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 13:58, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I think what Mr Trewhela is saying here is that recent research proves that Mandela was indeed a member of the SACP; this is something that Mandela himself has long denied, and which is also denied in the authorised biography by Anthony Sampson. Both Mandela in Long Walk to Freedom and Sampson in Mandela: The Authorised Biography accept that Mandela was indeed associating with SACP members, particularly around the time of MK's foundation, but they have remained adamant that he wasn't a card carrying party member. This new data changes things, as it indicates that actually he really was a party member, and proceeded to hide this throughout the 1990s lest it harm the anti-apartheid struggle and his own electoral prospects. Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:38, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I have incorporated an extra sentence with a reference to Ellis; it can be found in the biographical section detailing the foundation of MK. Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:52, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

 Already done Mdann52 (talk) 18:37, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

New Film to be added to subcategory under Legacy

Per the Internet Movie Database a new biopic has been completed entitled "Mandela: Long Walk To Freedom." Idris Elba is cast as a young Mandela. The film is due out on January 3, 2014 in the UK Erinsm (talk) 06:36, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

rivonia trial

The link in the article has the wrong title, and links to a different speech. Can someone fix this please? thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.129.145.172 (talk) 14:15, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

To FA-Class

Why don't we set a peer review to see if we can take this into FA-Class? Toughts? Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 12:22, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

If you're interested, I say go for it! -- Khazar2 (talk) 12:49, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, but I will need help from an expert user. Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 12:54, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

You can potentially get that by going to peer review, or by asking someone you've worked with before who has experience with FA. Thanks for your interest in taking this on-- Khazar2 (talk) 12:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

No problem, I am a huge fan of Mandela, ans so of MLK. Thanks for replying to my question. See you later, I'll see what I can get :) Have a good and peaceful day. Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 13:02, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Cool, good luck! It'd be great to get this to FA. -- Khazar2 (talk) 13:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Yep. I hope the man gets well. Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 13:13, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

My personal view on this issue – as one of the major contributors to this page – is that an attempt to take this to FAC too soon would be rash. As much as I want to see it reach FA status in the future, I think that we have to accept that Mandela will probably die in the coming few years. And when that happens, a swarm of new information about Mandela will become available, with particular reference to his legacy. That would cause problems for a new FAC. In the meantime, there are many other problems facing the page. The quality of referencing in the final section is not particularly good, while the overall page length is 161,655 bytes; a stark contrast to Wikipedia's recommendation that pages not exceed 100,000 bytes. To clarify, I would not stand in the way of others who might wish to take this on to FA in the immediate future, and I would like to be a part of that FAC process when it finally occurs (preferably as a co-nominator), but I do not think that this page is FA quality at the moment Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:38, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Midnightblueowl. Oh, I just wanted a peer review, that way we can see grammar, spell, and other errors that the article may have. References prblems, etc... I haven't contribute to the article because is a big one (not because of its lenght but because of its importance) I consider Mandela as one of the most important persons in the entire world, so I don't want to mess up his article. I won't like to see the day when he dies :'(... Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 19:19, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment Miss Bono, and may I say it is always nice to see new editors here to help at this page! Regarding the issue of excess length (which will be the main barrier to FAC here), I think that we are going to have to look at splitting this article up into new ones (much as I am currently having to do over at Mao Zedong and Fidel Castro). Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:26, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind words Midnight... I am always happy to help and much more if it is about great people like Mandela or MLK :), they are my heroes. If you need my help in anything regarding Mandela's article, please, don't hesitate in asking. Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 19:32, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 15 September 2013

In Australia, Mandela is commonly referred to as "Nelsos Mandelos" Jamjamjamm (talk) 15:42, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

 Not done WP:UNSOURCED HelenOnline 15:57, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Death

It's official. He's dead. I can't edit it but Zuma announced it now. ТНОМАЅ МАСКЕТ (talk) 21:47, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Please provide a reliable source. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:51, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Sadly true, but already edited. Go Phightins

Kudos to ye who got this updated before it has even hit google news. Hats off to you sir.

! 21:55, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

I was sitting in front of the TV. Not something to be proud of but I updated within 10 seconds. RIP Mandela. Teammm ^talk
_email 22:09, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

 Done

The death part in the sidebar is broken 120.150.157.73 (talk) 21:54, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for letting us know. Fixed many hours ago. 220 of ^Borg 07:07, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Death TBC

Hi, I noticed that somebody has added Nelson Mandela death place and death date. Correct if I am wrong but I believe he is only on his deathbed, not actually dead yet. Just be aware as this could be seen as insensitive. Again I do apologies if this news is true, just a heads up Thanks Skurope (talk) 21:58, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Sadly, his death been officially announced. - Bilby (talk) 22:00, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm proposing to add a new sub-heading Declining health and death, for the last few paragraphs of the life part, starting with February 2011. Everything from that on is nothing but medical information, after all. --2.240.217.135 (talk) 22:06, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

I have added a second reference - from one of the largest South African media companies. A "spare" reference is a good thing. I wonder is the page should perhaps be fully protected for a few days. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

U.S. terrorism watch list

Shouldn't the important historical fact that Mandela was removed from the U.S. terrorism watch list in 2008 be included in the article? http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/07/01/mandela.watch/ --85.197.7.136 (talk) 22:33, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

No. Not relevant to his life, simply a procedural item that was overlooked and subsequently rectified. Inclusion in the article would be unnecessarily confrontational and controversial, and it adds no real value to the article, as Mandela certainly was not a terrorist, at least not in the sense that it would be perceived. Go Phightins! 22:44, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

simply a procedural item -- That couldn't be further from the truth. You evidently haven't even looked it up as a news item: it was a major row during the last years of his life, with the ANC demanding an apology by the U.S., and all or almost all major news outlets reporting on it. Inclusion in the article would be unnecessarily confrontational and controversial -- If you look at it from the viewpoint of how utterly embarassing it is for the United States, yes. But that is not a valid criterion for excluding a highly notable and relevant piece of information from this article. it adds no real value to the article, as Mandela certainly was not a terrorist -- Your reasoning makes no sense. Of course he wasn't a terrorist, which makes it even more embarassing for the US to have labeled him thusly up until 2008. Which in turn is why so many major news outlets reported on this. --85.197.7.136 (talk) 22:56, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Trivial? The fact that he was listed as a terrorist is a notable event, not just proeceduaral. Then the fact that he was removed and of such high profile (obviously he cant be on) in by extension notable. At any rate, itll only take 1 sentence(Lihaas (talk) 01:14, 6 December 2013 (UTC)).

The delay in the removal itself was simply an insignificant trivial administrative error. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 01:37, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I think the fact that Nelson Mandela was on that list is significant - it clearly connects to America's relationship with the Apartheid-era South African government the Reagan-era Cold War. Rselby1 (talk) 02:04, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Dodger. It seems to lend undue weight to a trivial item to include it in the article. Go Phightins! 02:54, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

That Mandela was regarded at one time as a terrorist both domestically and internationally is worth noting in the article (and already is). That he was ever at any time placed on the US terrorist watch list is, like the fact that Margaret Thatcher "considered Mandela a communist terrorist and supported the suppression of the ANC", something that could be mentioned in the article, but is not really essential. That he was not removed from the list until 2008 is only of (possible) significance to people who want to debate how the US government does things, which means it has no relevance in this article. 99.192.94.8 (talk) 03:13, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Actually, there are two mentions on the page about it, one vague critics, and one about Thatcher. I would say that the USA listed him and considered a terrorist is pretty significant and worth mentioning. 89.75.144.176 (talk) 08:05, 6 December 2013 (UTC)TMK

Death page?

Due to his status as a legendary and revolutionary figure, will there be a page just for his death? Or is it not entirely notable? --Matt723star (talk) 23:05, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

When there is too much infomation for this article, sure. Until then, it's pointless in such a high quality article to split out a section that is currently two sentences. Soon, perhaps. Today? No. We don't need to crystal ball how many people will send condolences or on how many news stories covered the event. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 23:32, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

That's normal only for controversial or mysterious deaths. Rothorpe (talk) 6:34 pm, Today (UTC−5)

(ecx2) It's premature, the death section currently contains only two sentences and three references. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 23:37, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree, the section is not long enough yet. I think there could be consideration at merging the illness and death information together since the death section is so small. I have added more prominent and in-depth sources, formatted and cited all information to bring them in line with what you'd expect for a GA's references. Mkdw^talk 00:27, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

The section's still not long enough, but the article already links to the separate Death and Funeral of Nelson Mandela article. Did someone jump the gun? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.177.8.26 (talk) 00:37, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I did, I was the one who jump the gun. I had done it when Margaret Thatcher died and it turned out ok. I though it would have been ok to create the page as soon as he died. Apparently I should have waited a day until more info about the funeral had came out and what he died of, so I apologize that I jumped the gun on this. I do plan to reopen the page as later as tomorrow at the earliest if and when there is more info, but again very sorry. Nhajivandi (talk) 00:51, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Do NOT PLAN on opening the page tomorrow at the earliest. We can split WHEN we have long contentLihaas (talk) 01:11, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Is there an Admin reaing this, please delete that page NOW please. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 01:40, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Lihaas, I have apologize and if you choose not to accept it, that if fine. its up to accept a apology or not, but I will say this and I will repeat what I wrote in the talk page for the death and funeral page."I stand by what i did and this page may be needed as early as tomorrow" there are already some info in the funeral already out there and more will be release in the next few hours. and another thing I said as well "if I have to be ridiculed and shamed for what I did than so be it because I thought I was doing something right by creating this page as a good Wikipedian". All I try to do as a editor is right and that was what I was doing when I created the page. it will be very hard to reopen the page if it is closed so i ask that it remain open as it will be needed either tomorrow or in the next few days. Thank you Nhajivandi (talk) 01:41, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

@Nhajivandi: at the moment, there appears to be WP:CONSENSUS that a separate page on Mandela's death and funeral is not needed. Just add the content to the appropriate section here, and we can discuss a split at some point in the future if it becomes warranted. VQuakr (talk) 02:03, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Death and state funeral of Nelson Mandela

Seriously premature. This can be contained at Mandela's article. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:43, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

• Support merge as giving Death and state funeral of Nelson Mandela (currently a redirect) its own article is premature.   — Jeff G. ツ (talk) 00:54, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
• There is nothing to merge, simply delete and salt Death and state funeral of Nelson Mandela, because the continued existence of that page - even as a redirect is only going to attract editors who have no clue about how consensus works. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 01:00, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Done it as there is no point in an empty article (and already 2 editors have merged to be undone). Clear obvious consensus. When there is content then it can open up(Lihaas (talk) 01:02, 6 December 2013 (UTC)).

Indeed. There is nothing to merge. I agree with Roger Dodger67. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.166.6.173 (talk) 02:13, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 5 December 2013

Robben Island: 1962–1982 section ...should be changed to: 1964-1982 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.158.101.11 (talk) 02:11, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

 Done Fixed thanks. He was there for a fortnight in 1962 but that does not seem to be covered in the current text. If someone adds that information, the heading can be changed back. HelenOnline 07:21, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

International Reactions/Comments on the Death of Nelson Mandela

Right now, international organizations and government officials are releasing statements regarding his death. What are the procedures regarding citing the numerous comments made during news events like this? Rselby1 (talk) 02:17, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

See Reactions to the death of Nelson Mandela. --Another Believer _(Talk) 02:31, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

(See Reactions to the death of Osama bin Laden or International reactions to the death of Muammar Gaddafi for examples.) --Another Believer _(Talk) 02:35, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Suggest removing or rewriting Kosovo reference

Mandela's stance on Kosovo appears to have been far more subtle than the brief mention would lead one to believe. See, for example, his speech in the UN Kosovo report and its concluding reference to him. The complete speech from which many of the Mandela quotes in the cited source were taken can be found here, and it also fails to adequately support the claim. "He strongly opposed the 1999 NATO intervention in Kosovo and called it an attempt by the world's powerful nations to police the entire world" suggests a national sovereignty agenda; it appears more accurate to say that Mandela was advocating deference to democratic institutions and not actually criticizing the Kosovo intervention, merely criticizing how it was unilaterally decided upon. The article's current statement thus constitutes misleading selective quotation. --MZB — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:470:8B2D:7E0:B060:EFA4:830F:EE6 (talk) 05:32, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Request moved here from my talk page

The message below was moved from my talk page as I prefer to discuss articles on article talk pages as stated on the top of my talk page:

"Dear Helen,

Thank you for the work you've done on the Nelson Mandela page (the late, great, and honorable Nelson Mandela). I see that editing restrictions are currently in place so I'm writing you as the last contributor. As a modest suggestion, I wonder if you might agree that a link to the "List of South African newspapers" page could be appropriate. Even better, links to their respective Letters to the Editor. In that way, I believe the outpouring of support that can be expected might in some small way be enhanced. If you agree with me. I am very willing to track down those links for your review.

Sincerely,

Jim VanOpdorp — Preceding unsigned comment added by JZVan (talk • contribs) 07:50, 6 December 2013 (UTC)" HelenOnline 08:12, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

one murderer is already dead

that is good...remind me why whole africa should belong only to black race? rip you stupid racist asshole and never come back.