Talk:List of topics characterized as pseudoscience

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Traditional Chinese Medicine

Chinese medicine is a form of pseudoscience, based on totally unscientific principles. This should be added as a topic.Royalcourtier (talk) 06:20, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Traditional Chinese medicine is included in the section Health and medicine. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 06:22, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Climate change

The recent attempts at changing the entry on climate change appear to be FRINGE violations that fall withing Arbcom enforcement. --Ronz (talk) 14:38, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Possible sources

There are several reference works on the broad topic of pseudoscience including those at Wikipedia:WikiProject Skepticism/Encyclopedic articles. They might be potential sources for anything not listed yet I could myself check those listed to verify the description if someone were to ping me to do so. John Carter (talk) 21:05, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Proposal to delete this article

Why is this an article in Wikipedia? Topics characterized by who? Mainstream medicine? Science? I highly doubt there is overwhelming agreement among doctors or scientists on almost any subject, much less agreeing which "topics" to consider "pseudoscience". Really, this article is just a list of things a majority of WP editors don't like or understand. Is there an article titled "List of Chicks whose Boobs are Considered Large"? Really the whole thing should be scrapped.Herbxue (talk) 22:50, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Why? It's a useful article with sourced and attributed content... Zambelo; talk 01:21, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

It's obvious why User:Herbxue wants this article deleted, see Special:Contributions/Herbxue. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 01:46, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

How is it useful? Who is it useful to?Herbxue (talk) 03:57, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

It is useful as a handy list of woo stuff to be able to refer the gullible to on bookfarce and in internet forums when all the woo believing stupidity arises. Rather nicely, its form is tight and succinct, covering lots of ground, and pointing to bigger articles on the woo subjects. It is rather nice to get surprised responses along the lines of "Gosh, I had no idea that chiropractic was such nonsense (smiley face)" or "How on earth do they get away with conning people so easily with that rubbish !" from people who had previously been convinced about their woo of choice by those making money from them.

It is therefore a very useful article to me, and many others in a similar situation, and many of my friends. It is another small and potent weapon in the fight to educate and enlighten against those who promote this sort of nonsense. -Roxy the dog (resonate) 10:44, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Rather than suggesting the list is impossible (and is just a list of things editors don't like or understand), perhaps you would identify a few items from the list which are not pseudoscience? What source verifies that? Johnuniq (talk) 11:11, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Delete this article? That's a startling proposal. There is a great deal of material on pseudoscience on Wikipedia, and this is one of the root articles, the summary entry at the end of the Template:Pseudoscience navbox. As an article, it's dense with information, much more than a bare list, and it's heavily sourced. The associated Category:Pseudoscience and its extensive tree of subcategories organize many articles (I stopped counting at 1000). If your suggestion is that pseudoscience is an arbitrary label, are you also suggesting that its categories, its nav box, and all mention of the term “pseudoscience” be stricken from Wikipedia? And if not, why single out this one key article?

Pseudoscience‎ (75 C, 469 P)

 Unician ∇  14:06, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm singling this article out because it is not an article about a subject out in the world, it is created within Wikipedia to lump together disparate subjects that are defined here by what they are not, or where some sources say they fail. It is a hit-list. Roxy exemplifies part of my issue with this - on the one hand the mission is to educate and enlighten (which is great), but the end result is that the casual reader just lumps all these subjects together as "nonsense" and dismisses them. Really the article does not seek to educate, it provides a conclusion and says "don't bother with any of these" - I don't think it is WP's job to do that.

Someone above asked for a source saying a topic in here is not pseudoscience. That's beside the point - sure any of them can be characterized as pseudoscience, but who is an acceptable characterizer? For example, Dermatologists routinely prescribe antibiotics for skin problems when they have no idea what microbe is at play or if there is even a bacterial cause. Sounds like pseudoscience to me, shall we include Dermatology in this list, since I just characterized it as such? I don't believe that would be appropriate for an encyclopedia, and I believe the creation of this article was an act of original research. Herbxue (talk) 14:58, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

It seems to have been to AfD three times. At the last one[1] the consensus was "quite clear, almost SNOW-worthy" to keep it. Don't reckon that would've changed. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 15:13, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Alex, I probably should have looked for that first. I see the time is not yet right, but it is clear from that link that my concerns with this are shared by others. Dropping it for now…Herbxue (talk) 15:30, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

@Herbxue. Straw-man argument. We don't accept unpublished characterisations from random wikipedia editors. If you think that the article gives undue weigth to some characterisations, you could list them on the talk page and get them discussed. --Enric Naval (talk) 18:30, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Again, my point is not that any one particular subject is being treated unfairly - its the creation of this list that is an act of original research.Herbxue (talk) 18:41, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

And I believe your point is specifically counterindicated by the existence of multiple encyclopedias of pseudoscience, lists of encyclopedic articles from two of which can be found at Wikipedia:WikiProject Skepticism/Encyclopedic articles. And others exist as well. The existence of those encyclopedias, which are effectively "lists" of pseudoscientific topics, is presumably sufficient to establish the notability of this list. John Carter (talk) 18:45, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it's a list article, or index article, simply pointing to detailed material elsewhere with which it is in WP:SYNC. If WP categorized such indices as "original research" there would need to be a lot of deleting done! (Starting maybe with Glossary of alternative medicine – now there is an article which does need some attention ... ) Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 18:47, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Wow you did it again, I had no idea that list existed. As I said, dropping it before I take us into forum territory.Herbxue (talk) 23:21, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I've done a pretty miserable job of publicizing any of the pages in Category:WikiProject lists of encyclopedic articles, so I can't in any way criticize you on that score. John Carter (talk) 00:07, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Revisit the question of the name of the article

This is a poorly named article.

First of all, it's written in the passive voice, a fairly unique achievement for a list. As a scientist, I am constantly trying to remove the passive voice from my writing and the writing of my colleagues. I think we should strive for the same at Wikipedia.

Secondly, it's a violation of WP:ASSERT. Literally everything written in Wikipedia's voice is a topic that has been so characterized as what is written in Wikipedia. That's the reason for WP:V and WP:TERTIARY. In other words, the current wording implies that it is only the opinion of people as to what constitutes a pseudoscience. This simply is not true. Pseudoscience can be identified through straightforward means. Those whose pet ideas are so identified may not like it, but that does not suddenly mean there is serious dispute on the subject. In fact, scientific consensus, when it comes to pseudosciences listed on this page, is rather strong.

Thirdly, uniquely among Wikipedia lists, it is a title that demands Template:According to whom. Wow!

I recommend changing (moving) to List of pseudosciences or List of pseudoscientific topics.

jps (talk) 00:50, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

The problem with moving the article to something like List of pseudosciences or List of pseudoscientific topics is that it doesn't reflect the opinions of all the stakeholders in the matter. Zambelo; talk 00:58, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Per WP:GEVAL and WP:UNDUE, it doesn't have to. It simply has to reflect the consensus of the reliable sources who demarcate. jps (talk) 01:03, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Agree. The other "stakeholders" are generally not considered reliable sources. Second Quantization (talk) 19:23, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

You are assuming that 'Science' only has one definition. While some 'traditional' sciences may be described as pseudo-scientific under the Western-influenced definition of science, to the people that practice them, they are primarily a very real science - building upon a long line of inquiry. To mark these as "pseudo-scientific" would mean you are prioritising one definition over the other - whereas listing these as "characterized as" and attributing the characterization, means that both ideas can co-exist. Zambelo; talk 04:21, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

I am not assuming anything; I'm simply saying we go by what reliable sources say. There are no reliable sources which claim that there is a dichotomous break between what "Western-influenced" and "Eastern-influenced" definitions for science are. In other words, this concern is simply a red herring that some believers in, for example, New Age mysticism, try to hang their hat on. jps (talk) 10:44, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

jps, the proposed name “List of pseudosciences” sounds good — it's accurate and concise. In a previous discussion, user TS proposed that as “The Obvious Title”.  Unician ∇  07:01, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

I think it is a reasonable title, but also concede that there are some topics mentioned here which are not pseudoscience as a complete whole but merely contain pseudoscientific aspects. However, that may not matter. jps (talk) 10:46, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

I think that's a minor distinct which can be clarified in the article itself. Second Quantization (talk) 19:23, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Stating that the practices are pseudoscientific isn't factual - stating that there are some that have termed it so, is. It isn't accurate, because the topics aren't pseudoscientific - they are said to be pseudoscientific (by reliable sources) - there is a world of difference here. Zambelo; talk 13:21, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Everything in Wikipedia that is written about using the voice of Wikipedia as fact is done so because of reliable sources. That's how "facts" are handled in Wikipedia. See WP:ASSERT. You are claiming that there is another standard for factualness in Wikipedia, but our policies and guidelines don't allow for that. The standard is, after all, verifiability and not truth. The point here is that the pseudoscientific topics herein identified are included on the basis of strong consensus and there is no serious debate about any of the subjects herein contained. Oh, there are people who are upset by having their pet ideas called "pseudoscience", but that doesn't make their claims serious. jps (talk) 13:53, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

The problem in renaming the article seems to me to be that it would lump four distinct groups as indicated in the ArbCom ruling together under one title. Has anyone ever tried to see if the separate lists for the four groups would maybe be notable enough for separate lists? John Carter (talk) 14:35, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

No arbcom ruling is supposed to dictate content. jps (talk) 15:46, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Zambelo; policy WP:TITLE mentions 2 additional qualities other than verifiability: no original research and neutrality. Logos5557 (talk) 15:53, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Describing pseudoscience as pseudoscience is neutral. See the examples below:

1. Acupuncture is an ineffective practice based on pseudoscientific principles.
2. Acupuncture is undiluted hogwash.

Number 2 would be a problem under WP:NPOV, but number 1 is fine: well supported by reliable sources.—Kww(talk) 16:12, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Right, and as far as WP:NOR is concerned, the whole point is that the page doesn't come up with novel conclusions if there isn't a source which explicitly identifies the topic as having a pseudoscientific component. I think we're covered. jps (talk) 16:23, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Not right, because acupuncture should have been being presented as scientific by its practitioners/believers, before it can be described as pseudoscientific; see the definition. The current title is the most neutral one. Logos5557 (talk) 17:37, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

There are many acupuncturists who describe the "science behind their practice". We provide citations to these claims in this list. jps (talk) 17:50, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

I checked the citations provided to the acupuncture heading in the list but couldn't find one. All I could see was that there have been scientific studies/researches on acupuncture (such as the findings of basic research on the mechanism of action: the release of opioids and other peptides in the central nervous system and the periphery and changes in neuroendocrine function) , which we can't regard as the claims of scientificity. In addition, "many acupuncturist" is not an exactly scientific approach/appraisal. In case majority of the practitioners/believers present acupuncture as scientific, then pseudoscientific characterization/categorization becomes reasonable. Logos5557 (talk) 19:03, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

• Support. Nom makes a compelling argument. I would prefer the simpler title. - 2/0 (cont.) 17:47, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
• Support I agree for several reasons:

1. It's more to the point.
2. The most reliable sources don't equivocate, and neither should we in the title
3. Any distinction between pseudoscientific components of an idea or concept and the overall idea being non-scientific can be distinguished in the article text itself.
4. Distinguishing science from pseudoscience is clearly normative, but we are merely being a conduit for a distinction that is expressed by the reliable sources themselves.
5. Where there is disagreement amongst the most reliable sources, we can note that disagreement in some form in the listing itself.

Second Quantization (talk) 19:23, 21 July 2014 (UTC)