Wikipedia talk:In the news/Recurring items

Proposal: Remove World's Fairs

There's been a pretty robust discussion going on at Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates#Expo 2015. I feel like when you're at the point that most of the supports are because the opening of a World's Fair is listed as an ITN/R item, rather than because there's any actual evidence that this particular Expo is independently notable, it's time to reconsider ITN/R standing. World's Fairs used to be great spectacles, but they have declined dramatically in importance. Expo 2015 has received relatively little attention outside regional media (Italy, Malta, etc.) and business news. Nothing has actually happened at the Expo (aside from a few protests) and nothing is really expected to happen; if something really notable does happen, we could post it to ITN. But this seems like a good time to revisit having the World's Fair on ITN/R, because the evidence suggests this event just isn't big news. -Kudzu1 (talk) 22:13, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support removal. I was considering starting such a discussion myself. These events just do not have great importance anymore, given that the Internet and other modern technologies allow people to learn about upcoming technologies and new things in ways which could not be done before. I also suspect few people outside of its location could name the location of this year's event or even that it was going on, nor could they name the locations of past fairs. It gets little attention. Removing it from ITNR does not mean it cannot be nominated at ITNC, and if there are good reasons to, it will be. 331dot (talk) 22:19, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose removal - The last Universal Exposition, Expo 2010, attracted a record 73 million visitors, more than any Olympic games, and more than the entire population of the UK or Italy. The next one, Expo 2020, will be held in Dubai and sure to be spectacular. By visitor numbers, Universal Expositions are the largest events in the world and are held only once every five years. ITN/R is heavily biased toward sporting events, many barely noticed outside of their host country or a small number of enthusiasts (World Snooker Championship, anyone? Netball World Championships? Japan Series?). World's Fairs are more influential than probably 90% of the sporting events listed on ITN/R. -Zanhe (talk) 17:36, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure what my opinion is about removing or retaining, but the visitor figures may be a bit of a red herring, since what we are talking about (per the article) is the number of visitors to a 5.2 km sq area of a major city over a seven month period. I don't think it's easy to work our how many millions would be a really impressive number, and it's obviously not something that can easily be compared to a sporting event, say. Formerip (talk) 19:20, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

@Zanhe: What exactly do these events influence? 331dot (talk) 19:43, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

See my comment below. As for the visitor numbers, of course they're not comparable to sporting events. Most visitors are out of town, which means a significant commitment in money and time, unlike watching a sporting event on TV, which involves no more than a flick of finger. The fact that the expos could attract huge crowds over such an extended period of time attests to their influence. -Zanhe (talk) 06:18, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

While I agree that ITN/R has a tremendous bias toward sports that I think should be addressed, I don't think that's a good enough reason to keep posting World's Fairs that nobody cares about or pays attention to. And FormerIP is quite right about the visitor numbers; of course they're going to be very large if that's the metric used to measure them. -Kudzu1 (talk) 20:24, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

This is a typical WP:IDONTLIKEIT type of argument. If nobody cared about these events, why would 73 million people incur significant expenses to visit the Expo last time it was held (the ticket alone cost dozens of dollars, not to mention hotel and transport)? And why are hundreds of governments willing to spend millions of dollars to participate in them? -Zanhe (talk) 06:35, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

You're talking about a months-long event in a city of 15 million on the most densely populated coast in the world in a country with a population exceeding a billion. Neat how you totally leave those vital facts out. Plus there's no independent auditing of that number. μηδείς (talk) 16:27, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

So people from countries with large populations count less than people from smaller ones? That's a nonsensical argument. By your logic, we should remove Super Bowl because it's mostly watched by people in a country with a large TV-addicted population? -Zanhe (talk) 04:27, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

• Remove this sort of thing is a hangover from the nineteenth century, I agree with 331dot entirely, so I won't repeat his arguments. μηδείς (talk) 18:34, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
• Remove, World's Fairs were relevant when most of the world didn't know the rest of the world existed. No longer true. I honestly couldn't even tell you, in my lifetime, that I've seen any real coverage of "Expo" or its brethren. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:01, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - I don't want to spend too much time on this discussion as it's so inconsequential: Expo 2015 is unlikely to be posted as the article is such a mess, and the next Expo is five years away, during which a lot of things may change. What's striking is lots of opponents (here and on ITN thread) base their opinions on their ignorance about the events, as if the only events that matter were those that they can watch on TV, which is why we have so many sporting events on ITN/R in the first place. Look at these pictures:

• 
  Vasco da Gama Bridge, Europe's longest bridge, built to coincide with Expo '98 in Lisbon
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  Gare do Oriente, Lisbon's transport hub and one of the world's largest train stations, designed by Calatrava for Expo 98
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  Puente del Alamillo, designed by Calatrava for Seville Expo '92
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  Cartuja 93, one of the largest science parks in Europe, converted from Expo 92 grounds
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  China Art Museum, Asia's largest, built for Expo 2010
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  Power Station of Art, China's answer to Tate Modern, converted from an Expo 2010 pavilion

They are just a few of the more visible legacies from recent World's Fairs. Entire cities can be transformed or even created by a World's Fair, such as Portugal's Parque das Nações with tens of thousands of residents, which was created from the relatively small Expo 98 (which would not be covered by the ITN/R as it was not a Universal Exposition like Expo 2015 or 20). And Vancouver was transformed by its Skytrain metro system, a legacy of Expo 86, again a minor expo not covered by ITN/R. I'll leave it to the reader to decide whether they're a "hangover from the nineteenth century" or whether they're more worthy of ITN/R than a boat race between two universities. -Zanhe (talk) 06:11, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Usually these 'legacy' projects are figured out to justify the expense in hosting the event or to reuse the facilities afterwards, or are simply accelerated in construction to host the event. The reasons you have listed in support are all good arguments to make at ITNC, which can still be done if this is removed from ITNR. The fact that the 2015 expo article is not in shape for posting suggests little interest in the subject, along with the fact that outside of the event area this is not top news unlike, say the Olympics. 331dot (talk) 10:33, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support removal. These events don't get the media attention of Olympic games or previous Worlds Fairs. Removal from ITNR doesn't prevent this from being posted in future years. Calidum T|C 06:16, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
• Keep I don't understand how people want to remove such items when elections in Cook Islands, or whatever final in Gaelic or Canadian football have an ITNR spot. Nergaal (talk) 06:21, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Do you have any comments about the merits of this event being ITNR, instead of commenting on other events? There are systemic bias issues with the forms of football being removed, and there have been attempts to narrow the entities eligible to have their elections posted, without consensus. 331dot (talk) 10:24, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• Keep - World's Fairs remain a big deal. Just because they don't rise to the level of the Olympics anymore, doesn't mean they aren't worth covering. Zanhe is quite right in saying these are events that transform cities. Arguments about the 2015 article being in poor shape are irrelevant - the correlation between article quality and subject importance/interest is very weak across Wikipedia. It only takes one good editor to make an article featured quality, but there are few editors with that ability/desire. Thus our featured articles are a random sampling of the interests of 0.1% of our editors and 0.001% of our readers and many very important articles remain poor quality. --ThaddeusB (talk) 14:43, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
• Weak Keep I agree that these events still have significant cultural impact. I still hear Shanghai's 2010 expo occasionally talked about, which cannot be said of most other events on ITNR. Admittedly though, interest in these has been steadily waning since the mid-1900s. Mamyles (talk) 15:05, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Waning interest suggests this shouldn't get an automatic pass on notability and it should at least be discussed through the usual ITNC process. News coverage is also limited; I can find it, but it isn't top level news and is mostly fluff pieces promoting the theme of the fair, not describing something significant about it, such as world leaders attending(though Pope Francis has criticized the event) or something else notable happening there. 331dot (talk) 15:19, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

While there is less interest from its peak, where this would be front-page news in pretty much every country around the world, this still has a notable level of world interest. Changed to a "Weak keep" though. Mamyles (talk) 15:25, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

• Remove. Should be considered on individual merits in ITN/C nomination; not everything that's notable needs to be ITN/R. Spencer^T♦C 19:27, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support Remove: My perception of the World's Fair as such is that it is a quaint event that traces its history back to the 19th century. I associate it with the introduction of new ideas and technologies and innovations and the like. As 331dot indicated - they seem to serve little purpose at the present, aside from garnering funds for what appear to be pet architectural projects that later see little use, and more frequently than not, wind up simply going to ruin and disuse. I am of the opinion that it is an event that is very much past its time. Challenger l (talk) 12:26, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. I won't do so myself as someone who is involved here but there seems to be consensus to remove this in my opinion. 331dot (talk) 08:40, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

  I don't really think there is consensus to remove, but if you want to ask for an admin to assess the discussion see WP:AN/RFC. --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:03, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Proposal: Jnanpith Award

I propose that Jnanpith Award should be listed in ITNR. Jnanpith Award is the most prestigious award in the field of literature in India. It is awarded to recognise the best literary work out of the 22 languages in the country whose population is over 1.2 billion. Right now the literature section of ITNR is dominated by English language. Jnanpith Award represents 22 languages. Also India is underrepresented in the ITN section as a whole. 117.221.122.70 (talk) 04:09, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

• Has this been successfully nominated at WP:ITN/C more than once? That's evidence that this has enough consensus to surpass lengthy discussion each time this is nominated. –HTD 09:37, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
• Those sound like some excellent reasons to nominate it at WP:ITN/C, which doesn't appear to have ever been done before. Once it passes at least once (which I think it would), then an ITN/R could be considered. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:58, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose national awards should not be at ITNR, especially not the widely known ones. Nergaal (talk) 04:06, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
• I don't see what is wrong with an English bias here. ITN is not article space but a service to the readership: different rules apply. First and foremost this is a service to the user to enable them to find content they may be interested in. It stands to reason that users of the English Wikipedia are on balance going to be more interested in English language arts than those in other languages. 3142 (talk) 20:29, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Proposal: Adjust failed launches listing

Given the current discussion about the failed Proton-M launch, I will propose changing the "Launch failures where sufficient details are available to update the article" to state "Failures of nonroutine rocket launches". People seem to be considering this recent failure not notable for its circumstances, so as satellite launches are the most common type of rocket launch, we shouldn't include that as a criteria. As stated in that discussion, ITNR is for those items that have clear consensus for posting every time; if we have to debate which rocket launches are notable and which ones aren't, then it's time to adjust something. I don't propose keeping "sufficient details to update" as that is a given for any nomination. 331dot (talk) 08:18, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

As long as it is accepted that ITNR provides establishes general classes of stories that are nearly always an ITN story with the occasional exception (which is how we treat nearly all policies and guidelines on WP), then there's no need to change a thing; most launch failures are still ITN, just that one of unmanned telecom satellite launch which resulted in no injuries was a minimal impact news story and more focused on the failing Russian program than the actual event. This is not to say that not all failures of nonroutine rocket launches are not ITN: if there were causalities from a failed launch, or like with that ISS delivery probe, if it didn't burn up on re-entry and seriously threaten to crash into a populated area of Earth, that would be ITN. This specific case, meh. I would rather we don't touch ITNR and recognize that there are occasional exceptions, than try to narrow down ITNR too specifically. ITNR was never a guarantee of automatic posting, even if the article quality was in good shape, as has been discussed many times before. --MASEM (t) 12:43, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Masem, most rocket launches are unmanned and most launch failures don't result in any injuries or drama. So what you are calling "occasional exceptions" seems to be most cases in reality. I don't see what the point of having something as ITNR is if we are, in most cases, not going to post it. Better to just leave it to ITNC. Formerip (talk) 13:13, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Then lets change the language to "failures of manned rocket launches", and be aware that failures of unmanned launches can be nominated as ITNC as necessary (for example, if a NASA or ESA interplanetary probe launching fails). Either way, I do agree with removing "where sufficient details are available to update the article" as that's implicit for ITN in the first place. --MASEM (t) 14:08, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Masem's suggestion. If it were a launch failure that means the astronauts on the ISS are going to run out of supplies or something, that would be notable, but there is something off with the idea that it is our duty to put every unmanned rocket failure on ITN regardless of its independent notability. -Kudzu1 (talk) 16:19, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

I certainly don't see any reason to adopt "failure of manned rocket launches". That is so incredibly rare that an ITN/R is not needed. The item should either be removed entirely or something along the lines of what 331dot proposes be used: either his specific language or (probably better to define 'routine'): "Failures of rocket launches, excluding routine satellite delivery". --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:00, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

I would have no problem with your suggested wording. 331dot (talk) 19:29, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

My preference would be to remove it entirely, as I don't think a non-critical supply run to the ISS or another space facility is pro forma notable. Striking this item from ITN/R certainly doesn't mean we cannot and should not assess these incidents on a case-by-case basis. -Kudzu1 (talk) 04:33, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

I would prefer "excluding routine delivery" over removing failures entirely. That would cover both unmanned cargo and satellite vehicles. Mamyles (talk) 14:45, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm satisfied with this proposal as a compromise solution. -Kudzu1 (talk) 16:03, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

• I will be bold and make that adjustment, for now at least. 331dot (talk) 21:38, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

This strikes me as being a retrograde step: I can see what the intent is but is isn't what the rule says - it is utterly meaningless and can be twisted to mean anything. What counts as a "routine delivery"? In isolation that could cover virtually any space mission, satellite launches, space probes or even manned launches. It doesn't say what it is intended to cover and in that sense fails immediately. I will revert it because clearly more discussion is required: rules are rarely completely unambiguous but must at least give some sense of what they are trying to address.

More broadly I don't believe substantive action is needed at any rate. Yes, we've had a cluster of these recently, that happens: it is par for the course on ITNR. If anything the repeated nature of it makes each failure more notable, not less so. Consider the next resupply mission to the ISS fails and we don't cover it because, well, it's not notable any more. However, a week later it is announced that the ISS is being abandoned because it is no longer able to support its crew. This isn't far fetched - we have already had murmurings from individuals at various space agencies about the problems the resupply failures are already causing. It would also be a grave failure on our part, amounting to bolting the stable door just as the horse is about to come home. 3142 (talk) 20:19, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Personally I don't disagree, and I attempted to make such an argument at the last discussion, but consensus didn't seem to agree with it; I proposed changing the listing as a compromise per my explanation above. 331dot (talk) 23:26, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Proposal: Remove Premier League

I'm not proposing to remove this because I don't like football or the Premier League, but because of this reason.

The NFL is the biggest league in American football, its interest far dwarves any other. The same can be said of MLB, NBA and NHL.

The Premier League is not a cut above other soccer leagues in the same way that NFL is by far bigger than other American football leagues in other countries. While the status of the American sports leagues as the biggest in their respective sports is long-established, there is frequent fluctuation in European soccer. The English league is not the current best, nor has it been dominant for greater time than other European leagues (per linked chart).

The solution would either have those four leading leagues (England, Spain, Germany and Italy) all ITN/R, which is ridiculous as they all finish around the same time and would clog the ITN box. Or remove all domestic leagues as there is none which is more established as the greatest than any other. '''tAD''' (talk) 17:32, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

The Premier League is the most watched league in the world of any sport. Even Google agrees. (Unless you consider F1 a "league", that is.) –HTD 17:39, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose just because other leagues aren't included, that shouldn't preclude the winners of the most popular league in the most popular game in the universe being included at ITNR. ITNR isn't about the "best" or most "dominant". Suggest this is swiftly closed as pointy just because La Liga, the Bundesliga and Serie A aren't included. Disappointing behaviour. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:28, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Pointy. Disappointing behaviour. For pointing out that one of four leagues which have different leaders in different fields is highlighted more than the other three? What about if the election of the American President was R but not the president of Russia and China? Wouldn't you ask for reform? '''tAD''' (talk) 19:01, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I already supported the inclusion of La Liga. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove any more. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:36, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

• I think all 4 could and should be ITNR with the stipulation that the four should allways be as merged blurb. Therefore, at any given time they cannot take more than ITN entry. Nergaal (talk) 23:05, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. Most-watched football league and maybe sports league in the World. Many sports leagues compete for attention in USA. In England and lots of other countries soccer is completely dominant as spectator sport. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:40, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
• I agree singling out the Premier League is unjustified, but instead of eliminating it we should add other leagues - La Liga, Bundesliga, Serie A. As Nergaal suggests, if they coincide a joint blurb can be used. We should remember that soccer is by a considerable distance the most popular sport in the world, so I don't think adding these leagues would give it an unreasonable number of entries. Neljack (talk) 22:23, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
• There's certainly too much sport in ITNR and I wouldn't want to see any more, however this is not the place to start trimming, and I say this as someone who can't stand the game. I disagree with the central assertion of the proposal that the leagues are equal. It may naturally appeal to our senses of egalitarianism but it has to be justified.

Let us consider one measure of interest in the respective leagues: TV revenue. This source[1] shows the state of affairs there and places the EPL a country mile ahead of any of the other leagues referenced. Sure, that isn't an ideal metric since national TV markets differ but international rights are a much more equal comparison. In the case of the EPL those amount to over 40% of the total, in other words, you can remove the lucrative domestic rights from the EPL and what is left is still greater than the total TV money of any of the others excepting the Italians.

You can argue about to what extent the leagues are equal until you are blue in the face but the money talks louder. TV execs know what audiences they can expect from the different national leagues in their marketplace - the fact the EPL is worth so much more to them shows that there is a lot more interest in this league than the others.

Finally there is the language argument I have used here before. Do not confuse ITN with article space where different standards apply - things like presenting a worldwide view that is wholly impartial to national interests do not necessarily apply here. Clearly we do not wish to be too insular but ITN serves to identify articles likely to be of interest to the readership. It is entirely justifiable to give some preference to Anglophone nations on the the English language Wikipedia. 3142 (talk) 19:31, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Is this not enough soccer? Adding more soccer isn't the right answer. All these euro-leagues are essentially qualifiers for UEFA championship. Leave the EPL, it's old and it's popular and it's an English speaking country, but after that, what? The Spanish league? The German one? Take a look at top world cup performers: Brazil, Germany, Spain, Italy, Argentina, Netherlands, France, Uruguay ... and also large countries where soccer is popular like Mexico and South Africa. Should all these countries national championships be posted? Where do you draw the line? How much Soccer is enough? Should the box just be renamed "In the Soccer"? Honest to goodness enough already. --36.75.112.225 (talk) 00:11, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Proposal: MLS Cup

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

If NBA Finals and Stanley Cup are going to stick around in the ITN/R, the MLS Cup should be as well. It is not as prominent nationally as those tournaments, but what the heck. Of course, there are numerous soccer (association football) tournaments listed in the ITN/R. Adding the MLS Cup isn't too much, is it? --George Ho (talk) 02:53, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

"X is on ITNR so Y should be" is not a very persuasive argument, especially when you concede that it is not that prominent a tournament nationally. 331dot (talk) 03:03, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

All right, I'll persuade further. Soccer is one of popular sports in the U.S. although not as much as other sports. Well, I don't care much for soccer, but winning the MLS Cup is attractive to Wikipedians, especially Americans, am I right? There might not be a big name soccer player in the US, but it's hella lot exciting, especially when the Spanish announcer yells "Gooooooooooollllllll!!!" in Spanish-language U.S. network. George Ho (talk) 03:17, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't know how your brain works but give it a bit of a rest. You hate sports. You especially hate American sports. That's fine. MLS is not a top soccer league. MLS is not a top American league. You are not even a fan so it makes no sense tat someone who hates it would want it added. Stop picking fights with others. People like sports. America has some of the best leagues. Just accept that fact. Correctron (talk) 04:23, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Actually, I like cricket, not the insect but the sport. Too bad it is not popular in the US and doesn't have prominent leagues or teams in the US. Well, I hate to admit that playing the 50-over game lasts about eight hours, which makes Americans reluctant to play or watch cricket. And I don't feel thrilled about 20-over games. --George Ho (talk) 05:14, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

The sport of cricket isn't even known in a lot of places, FWIW. –HTD 13:06, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose In no way is MLS one of the top soccer leagues in the world. It's miles behind La Liga, the Bundesliga and Serie A, which are what we should be adding. 04:13, 18 June 2015 (UTC)Neljack (talk)
• Oppose per Neljack. Considering your opposition to posting the NBA Finals, I wonder if this nom is WP:POINTy. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:31, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
• Weak oppose In terms of North American soccer, MLS is the top league. However, MLS is not yet on the same level as the Big Four (NHL, NFL, MLB, NBA). Maybe we'll get there one day. Canuck^{89 (have words with me)} 08:11, June 18, 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose minor league. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:17, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per Canuck; it just isn't yet to the level needed to pass automatic notability. 331dot (talk) 10:14, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
• I'd imagine the MLS Cup is somewhere way, way, down in interest in the USA and Canada. Behind the Big 4 leagues, college football and basketball, NASCAR, college basketball and football conference championships heck even the CFL. I urge George to stop beating around the bush and nominate the NBA Finals off the ITNR. Go file a case to the proper authorities, but I'm not assuming good faith on this nomination, blocks be damned. –HTD 13:05, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.