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I see you are persisting in repeating the false "cunt" accusation, Gamaliel. You are completely despicable. - Sitush (talk) 16:07, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Are we still insisting that wasn't directed at her? That's an excuse a grade schooler would use to get out of trouble. Gamaliel (talk) 16:10, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

It's called wikilawyering, Gamaliel. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 16:23, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Oh, and your obsession with this gender gap thing, which seems to get a mention in most Signposts since you took over, is becoming boring. It is as if nothing else matters or happens, which may well indeed be the case in your warped world but certainly is not true more generally. - Sitush (talk) 16:08, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

You are so bored by it that your crowd can't stop talking about it every time it comes up. Gamaliel (talk) 16:11, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

• You bold a statement which you say next should have been oversighted? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:19, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

• It should have at the time. The cat is out of the bag now when it's been in The Atlantic. Gamaliel (talk) 16:36, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

This is a brave, intelligent, and insightful warning to Wikipedians, who should take its warning to heart -- especially to those who least want to hear its message. If Wikipedia does not end harassment, society will find ways to end Wikipedia. MarkBernstein (talk) 16:37, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

The story was an interesting read. It makes one wonder what Wikipedia's fate will be in the coming years. GoodDay (talk) 16:55, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

• Thank you for writing this - and thank you to those commentators who have chosen to demonstrate, with their feedback, precisely why writeups like this are so necessary and justified. Ironholds (talk) 17:12, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

• Although we continue to get bad publicity, often promoted by Wikipedians, over the Lightbreather case, that fact remains that poorly researched articles, regardless of the quality of the journal they appear in, are still poorly researched, and still not compelling.

We are all aware that certain editors consider Eric Corbett persona non grata - even though from Jimbo Wales down they seem reluctant to mention his name. (Maybe repeating it three times will cause him to pop out of the nearest mirror?)

To suggest that one ill advised statement from Eric is going to doom the entire project to oblivion seems to be taking this personally. To further promote the statement, as a number of Wikipedians have, seems to be a desire to bring the project into disrepute at any cost.

This is doubly so when draft proposals of the Committee are touted as Wikipedia policy.

If you think Eric is a threat to Wikipedia you have many options open to you: AN, RFC, or Arbcom for starters. But for God's sake, have the decency to stand up and do it directly and publicly - rather than writing scapegoating doom-and-gloom leaders, using "code words" like "toxic" and "Manchester" (which is pretty toxic in itself) or spreading fear uncertainty and doubt through any means possible.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 17:20, 25 October 2015 (UTC).

Eric Corbett is not a threat to Wikipedia. This isn't about Eric Corbett, it's about the entire encyclopedia's failure to deal with these issues. Gamaliel (talk) 17:22, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

+1. Eric is a prominent symptom, not the overarching issue; the overarching issue is how Wikipedia is structured in favour of a status quo that makes aggressive and gendered discourse and attitudes acceptable and excusable, and away from a system that would allow us to deal with these problems. Ironholds (talk) 18:14, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, everybody knows that the place for aggressive and gendered discourse and attitudes is IRC, right? Carrite (talk) 18:55, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

See, here's the thing. You could've replied arguing that Eric is not part of the wider problem, or that the wider problem doesn't exist. You could've argued that the wider problem does exist and Eric is a part of it but it isn't fixable. Or that it is fixable but that it's not our responsibility to fix. But instead, the best you can do is "but you were an asshole years ago!"

When that's your go-to, you've either not actually got a strong opinion here and just wanted to snark - in which case, see "part of a wider problem" above - or you have lots of opinions but simply don't care enough to write out anything better. In which case your comment is clearly not intended to be productive, and you should probably find something better to do with your time. Or, you know: participate in discourse about the nature of online environments in a way intended to be useful. That would be good too. Ironholds (talk) 01:54, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for writing this. U are totally right. Any Wikipedian who doesn't see this... Well indeed, society will take care of it... —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 18:44, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

I've seen plenty of talk pages on WP that aptly illustrate the issues raised in this article. The mansplaining seems to center around accusations of "taking things personal" when, in fact, personal comments were made and of "you need to toughen-up if you want to be on the interwebs" and variations thereof. I've seen WP guidelines and policies stretched to their irrational limits used as whipping posts to drown-out and suppress women's contributions. But I also see much the same on talk pages of articles about racism and bigotry (go figure). I usually chalk it up to the overwhelming presence of young, white male users who revel in their privilege and don't realize how bigoted they actually are. Meclee (talk) 18:48, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

This story was fed to The Atlantic by somebody from the Gender Gap Task Force/Gender Gap-list krewe. They don't pick up these stories from thin air. Interesting that Mark Bernstein is weighing in with power quotes — we saw the same dynamic with regards to his website during the most heated phase of GamerGate. It's all just a fucking game to some people, slay your enemies and who cares if Wikipedia's name gets dragged in the mud. Well I'm sick of it. I call bullshit on the backpatting yackers of GGTF/GG-l. The gender gap itself is part of the problem. Those people are the other. Carrite (talk) 18:50, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for expressing an opinion that seems to be held by a wide section of the community, that often remains silent so as not to solicit never ending harrassment. Sadads (talk) 19:22, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

• Taken literally the comment wasn't aimed at Lightbreather, and Eric Corbett has confirmed that. However he did use the C word, and in a statement that was open to misinterpretation. I read it as an unnacceptably impolite way of saying "people who behave rudely will find others treat them rudely". Clearly others read that statement as the singular you rather than plural you and interpreted it as an attack on Lightbreather. If he hadn't used such an offensive word, and maybe even worded things so there was less risk of misinterpretation then perhaps we could have a rather less heated and more useful discussion. I disagree with Eric's position, I think that some of the abuse comes from people who we have stopped from using this site to do harm to others, but much of the misogyny that some female and gay editors encounter is simply because they are female or gay. If I look at the flak that has come my way, the nastiest stuff, including death and rape threats, I can usually link back to a specific action, usually an admin action, that I've done. But I'm aware of several editors who've had it far worse than me, and most of them are from those minorities amongst us who are not straight white males. ϢereSpielChequers 19:30, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

It's pretty interesting to take a look at who's been doing most of the talking during this whole series of events. Let's see: on the talk page of Jimbo Wales (a man), Eric Corbett (a man) makes some comments judged block-worthy by Kirill Lokshin (a man). Corbett is then unblocked by Yngvadottir (a woman), who in turn is desysopped by Arbcom (thirteen men and two women; of those active and unrecused, ten men, of whom six voted in favor and four did not vote). A case request about the issue is filed by Black Kite (who I believe is a man, although I'm not sure). An editorial is written by Gamaliel (a man), in which three other people are quoted: MarkBernstein (a man), Rhododendrites (a man), and Andrew Lih (a man).* Back at Arbcom, 52 statements from people not originally listed as parties have been offered as of this writing (7 from people who I believe identify as women). Of those seven, to my reading 5.5 are critical of the decision to block. Meanwhile, all of this nonsense has somewhat distracted from the post on Jimbo's talk page by GorillaWarfare (a woman), who wrote at length about actual harassment.

So: for a bunch of people very interested in discussing this gender-gap phenomenon, nobody seems all that interested in listening to the women who are already here. Opabinia regalis (talk) 19:59, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

* I know you've been doing other good work on related matters, Gamaliel, but did you notice this? Other than Paling herself, the only woman whose thoughts you've mentioned in this editorial about the gender gap is your mother.

You make a good point, and one that I should have made more explicit in the editorial. When I wrote "In the face of all the evidence and all the accounts of harassment offered", I should have more clearly explained that I thought the problem was that these mansplainers were not listening to women's accounts. I considered mentioning some of them specifically, such as Gorilla Warfare's important post on User talk:Jimbo Wales, but I didn't feel right plastering other people's personal accounts across my own editorial like that without their consent, and I thought reducing the issue to one or two accounts would result in those accounts being picked apart and everyone once again ignoring the larger issue. (Such as when, in reaction to Gorilla Warfare's account, some speculated that it was in result of her prominence in the community and not her gender, despite the obvious gendered nature of the harassment and the fact that similar abuse has not been heaped on males who have shared the same roles or done the same things as her.) I firmly believe that the people we should be listening to on this issue first are women, but I also think, to express a similar sentiment to what Liz says below, that sometimes you need a man to mansplain things to stubborn men. Gamaliel (talk) 20:20, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, there was certainly a lot of mansplaining going on in the thread on Jimbo's talk page. And yes, the more diverse voices there are to point out the problem, the greater the chance that people will listen to one of them. So when individual men put themselves forward as advocates and allies, that's great. When collectively they dominate the conversation, that's not so great, and starts to turn into a variant of mansplaining in its own right. It's usually considered the responsibility of the relatively privileged to be self-aware enough to recognize when they are speaking over the less-privileged people they seek to help, but that's exactly the opposite of what's happened over the last few days - a woman who "spoke out of turn" was punished instead, for violating rules developed in and for a male-dominated culture - and exactly the opposite of how gender-gap conversations on Wikipedia usually unfold.

To go back to your editorial and unpack the argument a little further: with the help of Mark Bernstein's quote, you move directly from quoting Eric's "cunt" comment to discussing harassment and denialism of it to making a comparison to a well-known repeat sexual-harassment offender. But there are at least two significant issues elided there. To break down the types of hostilities women on Wikipedia are confronted with:

• Harassment and trolling. Behavior along the lines of what GorillaWarfare illustrated has a critical place in gender-gap conversations, but when the gender gap is so commonly conflated with civility matters (as, e.g. Rhododendrites does below: address the gender gap (or civility generally)) it needs to be highlighted as a separate and distinct issue. It is not incivility, it is abuse. This is not the kind of thing that our "prominent content creators" are doing, they don't deserve to be lumped in with it, and treating their putative offenses as of a piece with unambiguous sexual harassment turns them off to the whole discussion.
• Casual misogyny and microaggressions. This happens all over Wikipedia, almost always from people who'd deny any hint of misogyny if directly confronted, and is difficult to challenge because any individual isolated incident looks like a minor matter that the complainant is blowing out of proportion or exploiting for political purposes. It's also often not directed toward women editors, but contributes to a generally hostile environment - e.g. making inappropriate comments about the appearance of female BLP subjects, or using sexualized language. This is the kind of thing we might have some "prominent content creators" engaged in, but there is widespread disagreement over where exactly the boundaries are. Even if you take this category broadly, equating a few instances of debatably misogynist online comments to a) serious and threatening online harassment, or b) actual real-life exploitation of women, is not an improvement in the tone of the conversation.

I disagree with some of what Rhododendrites posted in the section below, but I think the conclusion is more or less right: the way people are talking about this issue at the moment is not persuasive. It's not really a dialogue with women, but nor is it a dialogue in which men try to meet other men where they are. Opabinia regalis (talk) 04:12, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

• Thank you for writing this, Gamaliel. Sarah ^(talk) 23:50, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Persuasion

A good summary and sensible exhortation. Writing like this is important, but what seems sorely needed is a persuasive essay more effectively addressing the motivations behind the objections held by those described here as being "in the way".

The complications arise from Wikipedia's dual identity as encyclopedia and community. (There are other ways of looking at its identity, yes, but bear with me). Our rules mostly address either one or the other: WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:RS, etc. for the encyclopedia and WP:AGF, WP:CIVILITY, WP:BITE, etc. for the community. The two are intertwined, yes, but there are multiple perspectives as to the relationship between the two and the relative importance of each set of rules when it comes to the other domain (e.g. the importance of civility to the encyclopedia).

On one hand there are those who want to strengthen the community in order to produce a better encyclopedia. They believe that by sacrificing, in one form or another, active contributors for reasons such as civility, the editors who would leave or who would be deterred by that incivility will more than make up for the loss in content production. In other words, the community gains and the sacrifice to the encyclopedia is only temporary. On the other hand are those who are very skeptical of this proposed trade-off. They argue that if this one person is a FA wizard and has 50,000 very high quality edits to the mainspace, why would we want to lose that person based on unproven claims about attracting more participation -- and participation by people who, even if they do actually show up, are unlikely to collectively make as much of a contribution to the encyclopedia? Those who have this perspective still generally acknowledge the gender gap exists, think that harassment is bad, think that a civil community is good, and think Wikipedia would be better if more women edited. But they're unconvinced of the merit of proposed approaches and unimpressed by those that have already been implemented. It just costs too much and there's too much at stake to "get out of the way." I think most objections to addressing e.g. harassment aren't objections to addressing harassment per se, but objections to the implementation of community remedies that might lead to restrictions being placed on active contributors and/or look to come at the expense of the encyclopedia.

Unless we're willing to block everyone who thinks this way -- and I'm quite sure we're not -- one thing we could really use is more convincing argumentation about proposed measures to strengthen the community and the value of those actions to the encyclopedia. Promises of more contributors, more diverse contributors, and a happy, welcoming community for its own sake just aren't convincing enough. There are many people who have done this in a number of ways, I know, but it might help to collect into one place all the ways we can connect the activities we undertake to address the gender gap (or civility generally) and the front-facing encyclopedia. Are there ways we can measure the impact of community-based initiatives on the encyclopedia? (In the past, perhaps?) What are the kinds of studies we can pitch to social science researchers? It's a big project, of course. I think it can be done. I just think we need more variety in modes of engagement on the issue. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 19:25, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Excellent points, and I'd love to see more discussion of them, in the Signpost and elsewhere. I think the discussion of the merits of proposed solutions have been sidetracked by so much discussion and resistance about whether or not there's actually a problem in the first place, despite the ample evidence. Gamaliel (talk) 20:41, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

What proposed solutions? NE Ent 22:54, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Brilliant editorial, Gamaliel. Although I heard it at WikiConference USA 2015, this editorial made it clear to me: Just as I've often argued that Wikipedia is a "social encyclopedia," the Gender Gap can not be just about articles in the encyclopedia. The Gender Gap has to begin with the editors ourselves. Making all (or most) of us aware of these issues (which encompases civility and most of the other observed social ills) will be a first step to improving the encyclopedia. Conversely, ignoring them will be a leading cause of its demise. - kosboot (talk) 23:12, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

What we are speaking about is that subspecialty of social science called "government". What you speak to is essentially the fundamentals of public policy administration. You know, those articles that no one on this talk page edits or reads, that's what we're talking about here. Int21h (talk) 02:15, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Remaining Atlantic Errors

The Atlantic have now made three corrections to their article but at least one howler remains. If we are covering this in the signpost we should at least note the difference between the Arbcom judgement "The functionaries team reviewed evidence submitted about off-wiki sexual harassment of Lightbreather, but was unable to reach a consensus over whether or not it was sufficient to connect a Wikipedia editor to the harassment. The Wikimedia Foundation was kept fully informed throughout. The functionaries and the Arbitration Committee also reviewed evidence of a separate, apparently unrelated, pattern of off-wiki harassment. As there was conclusive evidence of the identity of the perpetrator of the second series of events, User:Two kinds of pork was blocked." as Arbcom didn't sanction the harasser because to do so would have outed him. To my mind this is a significant difference. ϢereSpielChequers 19:30, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

For a full picture, you would need to add the Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Lightbreather/Proposed_decision#Inappropriate_off-wiki_conduct finding, which passed: "Lightbreather posted inappropriately to an off-wiki website apparently with the objective of having the participants identify a Wikipedia editor by name. (Private evidence)" and multiple references to attempted "outing" of her harasser in the endorsements of Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Lightbreather/Proposed_decision#Lightbreather:_Site-ban. Lightbreather's attempt at identifying her off-wiki harasser off-wiki was a key factor in her site-ban, and that stinks to high heaven. Full marks to Courcelles and GorillaWarfare for opposing that finding, as well as the related site ban, which I believe most people outside Wikipedia would consider plain nuts, to the extent that it was based on that finding. In that sense, I don't find the Atlantic article strayed too far from the red line of fact, in its criticism of Wikipedia "culture"; it's a distinction without a material difference.

Besides that, kudos for your other post above, also dated 19:30, 25 October 2015 (UTC), which starts "Taken literally ...". I struggled to compose a similar argument and gave up; you've succeeded where I failed. Andreas JN466 21:59, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you!

This is a brilliant editorial, Gamaliel, thank you for authoring it. It's ironic, but these words are likely to have more impact coming from a male than coming from a female editor/admin who would just be judged as shrill and complaining. But the only way for Wikipedia to become a less abrasive and more welcoming environment is for male and female editors working together to make the necessary changes. It will take time but, I think you're correct, the perception by mainstream media that Wikipedia is a misogynistic environment will impact donations and any professional relationships WMF has with scholarly or other non-profit organizations. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:34, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

I doubt the findings

If you don't clean up this mess, the adults are going to come and take your toys away from you.Who are these adults? The money could dry up: donations could drop, grants could disappear, academic research involving Wikipedia could vanish.WMF has 60 million $, but the servers cost only 2 million $ per year

@Gamaliel: Probably this project will not fail because of gender issues. There's no alternative online encyclopedia. It doesn't matter what bullshit we do, the people have no choice and will continue to read & donate.

Imho Wikipedia could only fail because of too much content, which is out of date and out of scope.--Kopiersperre (talk) 20:27, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Fifteen years is a long time. Is anyone friends with Tom Anderson anymore? Gamaliel (talk) 20:31, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Nobody knows, how 2030 will look like. But who do you want to come and clean up the mess? I can't figure out, who do you mean.--Kopiersperre (talk) 20:40, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Kopiersperre, Tom Anderson was the founder of Myspace which was once the hottest and biggest social network that existed. It was sold to News Corp in 2005 for US$580 million. Now, it's a shell of its former self, eclipsed by Facebook, Tumblr, Instagram and Twitter. There is a fascinating book about the rise and fall of MySpace by Angwin, Julia called Stealing MySpace: The Battle to Control the Most Popular Website in America (2009). The book would have been very different if it had come out in 2010. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:04, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Time to address the real problem

The vast majority of the world is still stuck in the past, whether because of tradition, religion, or conservatism. This means that the world is misogynist and antifeminist as a whole. Anyone who has studied the problem knows this is true. Western governments pay lip service to small pockets of feminism here and there so as to differentiate themselves from their opponents, but the fact remains that the financial engines of the West do business with the rest of the world, and reinforce the existing framework of misogyny in their blind worship of moloch. So let's stop beating around the bush and blaming a single Wikipedia editor for a problem larger than all of us and start naming names and placing the blame where it belongs. That editors bring their preconceived notions about women with them to this site is to be expected. And if you want to change their beliefs, you will first have to change their perception of their culture that raised them to this point. That's not going to be easy nor is it realistic for Wikipedia to tackle as an educational project. It's time to own up to the idea that the world is anti-woman, anti-feminist, and misogynist to its roots. Until you do, you're just wasting bandwidth. Viriditas (talk) 21:06, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Culture has universal elements but it is also local. Culture is the set of principles we agree to, explicitly or implicitly, let govern our social groups - and Wikipedia is a social group. Yes, the world is toxic and misogynistic - but that doesn't absolve us from fixing the issue. Wikipedia cannot tackle it for the world, much, but it can absolutely tackle it locally by setting local (i.e., specific-to-our-site) expectations for human behaviour. Suggesting it's beyond our control is to misunderstand the layered nature of cultural standards and expectations. Ironholds (talk) 03:06, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Already destroyed

Safe Space (South Park) already destroyed the nonsense (great timing for this editorial). Maybe Butters will filter Reality on wiki. --DHeyward (talk) 21:12, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

What a crock of shit. This isn't about safe spaces, it's about regular norms regarding human conduct and decency. I don't know where you work, but I doubt people get to call you the c word at your job or email you about your breast milk. Gamaliel (talk) 21:41, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

This is the internet, not my work which is a bastion of 1st world privilege. Nor have I used any of the epithets you mentioned either here or at work. You used to have "Don't be a dick" linked on your page if I recall. I doubt you would say that at work, either. Steve Jobs, however, was extremely blunt. In 25 years, I haven't had a job where a woman wasn't in the direct management chain. The world view isn't changing as it's been unacceptable to harass anyone at work for many decades. The internet, though, particularly twitter, has removed a filter enjoyed by privileged people. Civility is a 1st world privilege and exposure to incivility is a melting pot that's dissolving cultural distinctions. The world is uncouth. Here's the musical version. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXQkXXBqj_U --DHeyward (talk) 22:02, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

The fact that this website is on the internet does not mean it should escape the rules of basic human decency. Both 4Chan and the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy are on the internet. We have a choice as to which one we should emulate. Gamaliel (talk) 22:06, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

The point is that is all POV. Basic human decency is feeding the hungry. You're couching a "who you want to participate" as an argument of "how you want them to participate." We can have Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy but it would mean excluding people that don't hold SEoP POV. Should we allow residents of Qatar to express their views as they are reflected in their culture? So far, the only meaningful result of the Atlantic article has been the desysoping of a female admin. Do you applaud that action? --DHeyward (talk) 22:34, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

We choose what kind of culture we want to have on the encyclopedia. I would not choose the culture of Qatar, or the culture of first world asshole masculinity. Gamaliel (talk) 02:00, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

The Atlantic is not "the world"? for sure it is controversial ...

"the world" in the title attracted me and i was a little disappointed that it is about something i never heard of, in a newspaper i never heard of. i admit somehow i admire and wonder how The Atlantic achieved i know it now and i am again part of the world with it. i found an article about The Atlantic's strategy called "Is the Atlantic making us stupid?" by pamela erens which helps to explain. to cite a couple of sentences "He (James Bennet) has turned The Atlantic from a money bleeder into a moneymaker, from a worthy but familiar cultural artifact into a brand chattered about by people who are not usually considered part of the chattering class. And what gets the most chatter of all are The Atlantic’s frequent, and frequently controversial, articles about gender issues." erens then gives quite a lot of examples of stories, from single women, breast feeding, oral sex, end of men, how to end your kid in therapy, up to "Daddy Issues, Why caring for my aging father has me wishing he would die". --ThurnerRupert (talk) 21:49, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

The Atlantic is a 157-year-old magazine, among the most famous and prestigious magazines currently being published. It is not, and never has been, a newspaper. If you have not heard of the magazine that Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr. founded, that published many of the most important British and American authors of the 19th century -- Emerson, Twain, Jack London, Robert Frost, Ernest Hemingway, Ida Tarbell -- the magazine that was the cauldron of abolition and the cradle of reform, your education might perhaps be slightly deficient. Nonetheless, I am confident that James Bennet and his editorial board await your wise advice and counsel on what they should publish, but this is not the place for such advice. The correct address is 600 New Hampshire Ave., NW, Washington, DC 20037. MarkBernstein (talk) 23:01, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

What a blatantly sexist essay

"Mansplaining"? Have we completely forgot that derogatory terms aimed at a particular group of people, in this case males, is classic discrimination? I'm not sure when sexism, in this case some feature beholden to men for whatever reason, became the standard on Signpost... Signpost admins need to realize that if such discriminatory and bigoted views are OK to air with such prominence, the genie is out of the bottle, and unfortunately, as we all can probably guess, it's not going to be men that bear the brunt of it in the end. I really don't give a shit about excuses, this sexist crap needs to stop. Int21h (talk) 22:19, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

It might be wiser, before mansplaining to us about the term “mansplaining”, to learn how to spell “discriminatory.“ You should also know that the author of this essay is the editor of The Signpost and a very prominent admin. Yours is an excellent illustration of one of the common Wikipedian pathologies discussed in the article. Speaking of admins, however, the phrase above about women bearing the bring of “it” -- whatever “it” is -- might constitute a threat. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:24, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

I've fixed the spelling, thanks. But quit making idle threats; if you think I've violated a policy, take it to an admin. If you think someone deserves to be intimidated for their opinions, or that I would be, think again. Int21h (talk) 22:39, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

I think someone deserves to be sanctioned for saying that "the genie is out of the bottle and, unfortunately, it’s not going to be men that bear the brunt of it in the end." I have brought this to the attention of those who care about WP:CIVILITY. Your response above is perhaps not overflowing with loving-kindness or respect, or contrition for that matter. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:53, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

OK, but we all know it is an empty complaint meant to harass, and I will take no small pleasure in chastizing anyone reckless enough to perpetuate the harassment, using civility or spelling or otherwise as a basis. Int21h (talk) 23:28, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

I apologize to mansplainers for insulting their mansplaining. Gamaliel (talk) 02:01, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

While it certainly feels good to engage in tit for tat discourse like this, the mansplainers do have a point that this kind of rhetoric only serves to separate rather than unite us. And that is, of course, the goal of every antifeminist, so in many respects, a lot of the feminist rhetoric ends up falling into a trap laid by their oppressors. You see this a lot in many different social movements. Although it sounds somewhat non-intuitive, instead of going after men, feminists should try going after women. In the US, women actively fought against the Equal Rights Amendment and were responsible for its demise. In most of the world where feminism is considered a form of science fiction, women actively hold back other women just as the black Uncle Tom ("a person who betrays their own group by participating in its oppression") of the American South held back African-Americans. I think Aristophanes had it right two-thousand years ago. The power of women united is far greater than they know. Viriditas (talk) 02:18, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, but that's total hogwash. Men control the vast majority of the powerful positions and statuses within the world. Many societies are set up, implicitly or explicitly or both, to perpetuate this. Absobloodylutely men should be challenged here - while an entire oppressed group working in unity is, indeed, fairly powerful, it's not as useful as having the people doing the oppressing realise it's an assholish set of behaviours to perpetuate. The attitude that feminists should stop challenging men until they've got "their own house" in order is a pretty suspicious one given that as a, I'm sure, totally-coincidental side-effect, it absolves men from having to think about gender equality up until the point all women agree about everything, which just so happens to be some time after the heat-death of the universe.

As for coming into a conversation about mansplaining with a "well actually..." - eh. The joke writes itself. Ironholds (talk) 02:24, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

I think that around the world, women actively hold other women back in terms of equal treatment under the law, and I think there's good evidence for it, such as the opposition to the ERA. Usually, the reasons are cultural, often traditional and religious. Far from being "hogwash", I think you'll find solid evidence for what I'm saying. That's why campaigns to fight female genital mutilation, for example, are often focused towards women. It's why activism on any subject related to women is best geared towards women, and this is a historical fact. You can blame the men until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, women have to reclaim their own power as a cohesive group and grab the brass ring for themselves. That's how social change works. Nobody will give you a right, you have to stand up and take it. Sorry to inject a little reality into your fantasy-based discourse. Viriditas (talk) 02:31, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

If you think it was the idea of not all women agreeing I considered hogwash, you didn't actually read my comment. 'women' are not a unified group, and neither are 'feminists', and decrying the idea that men - who, again, control most of the power in the world - should be involved until after every self-identified woman agrees the same things guarantees that it will never happen. From a male point of view that's self-serving enough to be deeply suspicious. It would, indeed, be great if all women agreed on exactly what feminism looked like, and agreed that what that should look like is something intersectional, and everyone was happy. But since that will never happen, and since that happening does nothing to solve for the actual problem, demanding it as a pre-requisite is ridiculous. Ironholds (talk) 02:38, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

You clearly haven't understood a word I've said, you've only refuted straw men you've created. I've written a lot about women, particularly female scientists and writers, and they always say the same thing: yes, men have discriminated against them, but worst of all, they were brainwashed by the dominator culture into discriminating against their fellow women without realizing they were doing it, in effect doing the job of the oppressor for them. This is a universal trope found in virtually all of women's literature, and more to the point, a standard flaw in virtually every social movement. It's time for you to study it. Viriditas (talk) 02:52, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

It is, yes, and I am familiar with it - but that's not what you said. What you said was "Although it sounds somewhat non-intuitive, instead of going after men, feminists should try going after women."

Not as well as: instead of. That's what I'm responding to here; the idea that solving for divides within feminism, or within the beliefs of women overall around social justice and liberation from oppression, is a mandatory prerequisite or replacement for challenging men. It is not, and suggesting that it is - that the impossibility of uniformity is something you believe needs to be overcome before it's acceptable to challenge men to fix the broken system we benefit from - is to set an artificial and impossible bar, and demand that liberation happens on your terms. For liberation to be genuine, it will not happen on your terms, or on mine. Believing it should is a pretty good indicator for Not Really Getting It.

And: feminists do go after other women - a lot. Whether that's disagreements within feminism, such as pressuring trans-exclusionary radical feminists or people whose feminism is non-intersectional more broadly and fails to consider the role that race or class plays, or pushing women who have bought into the dominant narrative around gender equality, it happens a lot. You apparently have managed to miss all of it.

Yes, this pushing needs to continue. No, this pushing is not a prerequisite to pushing men, too. Suggesting that it is a prerequisite, or that people should ease back on challenging the people who have the majority of the power and authority (which, hey, happens to be part of the issue that needs to be fixed) is what I have a problem with. And that's not a strawman, it's what you wrote. Ironholds (talk) 03:03, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Amazing Comments Section

Surprised I didn't expect this comments section to be this heated as it is now. If heated is the right word in this case. What an issue. GamerPro64 22:48, 25 October 2015 (UTC)