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*'''Oppose''' Although it was initially caused by a natural disaster, human error and human decisions building the site had a great impact, how this could evolve. After the years gone by, the site is still seriously polluting the world with nuclear waste. Japan and TEPCO cannot stop that at all. So nuclear disaster is sure the right way to describe this "event" [[User:1947enkidu|1947enkidu]] ([[User talk:1947enkidu|talk]]) 06:52, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Although it was initially caused by a natural disaster, human error and human decisions building the site had a great impact, how this could evolve. After the years gone by, the site is still seriously polluting the world with nuclear waste. Japan and TEPCO cannot stop that at all. So nuclear disaster is sure the right way to describe this "event" [[User:1947enkidu|1947enkidu]] ([[User talk:1947enkidu|talk]]) 06:52, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
::What's the basis for your understanding "the site is still seriously polluting the world with nuclear waste", and if so, that "Japan and TEPCO cannot stop that at all"? [[User:Wtmusic|Wtmusic]] ([[User talk:Wtmusic|talk]]) 08:04, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
::What's the basis for your understanding "the site is still seriously polluting the world with nuclear waste", and if so, that "Japan and TEPCO cannot stop that at all"? [[User:Wtmusic|Wtmusic]] ([[User talk:Wtmusic|talk]]) 08:04, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

:::Would you suggest, that the site is not leaking anything radioactive material anymore? That the frozen walls have stopped all groundwater entering the buidings ? I never did read anywhere, that all reactors are sealed off completely... [[User:1947enkidu|1947enkidu]] ([[User talk:1947enkidu|talk]]) 11:47, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

*'''Support''' – There is no advantage to using the [[MOS:LABEL|value-laden]] "disaster" in this case. Indeed, our MoS tells us not to bring emotional labels into the encylopaedia unless they are the most common form. In this case, whilst a disaster certainly occurred, that disaster encompassed the whole range of events from the earthquake to the tsunami to the nuclear accident. As this article is only about the accident, there is no reason why it should not be titled as such. The survey of government agencies above is quite telling. Much of the opposition above seems rooted in emotion, but that should not be brought into the matter of deciding the appropriate title for these articles, per [[WP:NPOV]], [[MOS:LABEL]], and [[WP:NOTNEWS]]. [[User:RGloucester|<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt;color:#000000">RGloucester </span>]] — [[User talk:RGloucester|☎]] 23:14, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
*'''Support''' – There is no advantage to using the [[MOS:LABEL|value-laden]] "disaster" in this case. Indeed, our MoS tells us not to bring emotional labels into the encylopaedia unless they are the most common form. In this case, whilst a disaster certainly occurred, that disaster encompassed the whole range of events from the earthquake to the tsunami to the nuclear accident. As this article is only about the accident, there is no reason why it should not be titled as such. The survey of government agencies above is quite telling. Much of the opposition above seems rooted in emotion, but that should not be brought into the matter of deciding the appropriate title for these articles, per [[WP:NPOV]], [[MOS:LABEL]], and [[WP:NOTNEWS]]. [[User:RGloucester|<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt;color:#000000">RGloucester </span>]] — [[User talk:RGloucester|☎]] 23:14, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' one of our five naming criteria is [[WP:CONSISTENCY]]. The only other level 7 accident is [[Chernobyl disaster]]. I find the argument that the title inherently violates NPOV to be unconvincing. [[User:VQuakr|VQuakr]] ([[User talk:VQuakr|talk]]) 00:39, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' one of our five naming criteria is [[WP:CONSISTENCY]]. The only other level 7 accident is [[Chernobyl disaster]]. I find the argument that the title inherently violates NPOV to be unconvincing. [[User:VQuakr|VQuakr]] ([[User talk:VQuakr|talk]]) 00:39, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Revision as of 11:48, 21 April 2016

There are discussions related to the nuclear accident both here and at Talk:Fukushima I Nuclear Power Plant

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Translation request for picture banner text with invitement of japanese from fukushima area

Does the following picture really show an anti atom rally inside fukushima desaster article ? Request for translation of japanese banners inside the picture with no anti atom signs just children balloons at Meiji Shrine side. Maybe correcting yourself inside eWP or answering here.

Anti-nuclear power plant rally on 19 September 2011 at the Meiji Shrine complex in Tokyo.

Number of deaths in article could be 1600

I have found one article on one internet magazine that 1600 people may have died from the nuclear accident. Is this true? http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/03/22/fukushima-radiation-a-killer/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roryfyfesmith79 (talk • contribs) 10:17, 19 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Natural seawall removal

I've just come across this 2011 WSJ article about Daiichi's 35m natural seawall being reduced to 10m. The comparison with nearby plants that survived the tsunami is telling and should not just be included, but given a certain prominence, I think:

The destruction of that natural tsunami barrier at the Fukushima Daiichi site contrasts starkly with later decisions in the 1970s to build the nearby Fukushima Daini and Onagawa nuclear-power plants at higher elevations. Despite being rocked by the massive March earthquake, both of those plants' reactors achieved "cold shutdowns" shortly after the tsunami struck and thereby avoided the damage wreaked upon the crippled Daiichi plant.
Both of those plants, located along the same coastline as Daiichi, survived primarily because they were built at higher elevations, on top of floodwalls that came with the landscape. As a result, the tsunami didn't result in an extended loss of power at those plants, allowing their operators to quickly cool active reactors and avoid meltdowns.[1]

I don't want to start editing this topic, so I hope an interested editor picks this up. Thanks. Podiaebba (talk)

There is some ambiguity in the height of the seawall. The "Tsunami" section lists it as 5.7 meters, but the "Overview" section states a 10 meter height. This should be clarified, and the seawall graphic may need to be updated or explained, as it depicts a 5.7 meter height. Hadron137 (talk) 21:16, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Alternatives

Editor Nuve307 has added a paragraph about the alternative use of Thorium reactors, which I have removed. Specific reasons are:

- The use of Thorium reactors is only one of a plethora of possible mitigations for the disaster, ranging from higher seawalls to all sorts of Gen III+ and Gen IV designs,which are all possibilities. If one is mentioned than all should be, which are not germane to the article.
- While I like Sorenson and his ideas, he has not addressed thorium reactors as a panacea for any particular disaster, namely the one the article addresses. Neither does the article change. Moreover, if LFTR is a panacea, it is a panacea for far more than just Fukushima Daiichi.
- The change is not factual, but rather prescriptive. Not appropriate for an encyclopedia article.
- Thorium reactors are addressed in specific articles on Molten salt reactor, Liquid fluoride thorium reactor, Nuclear reactor safety systems, a probably a dozen more articles.

Disaster is ongoing according to Japanese news source: past tense in first sentence in lede is flat-out wrong

Rfc or no, this current article in the Mainichi Shimbun, a major Japanese newspaper, says the amount of radioactive contamination in the water around the three nuclear meltdowns is considerable and growing. So, claims in Wikipedia's voice that the disaster is over and done with are flat-out wrong. This should be corrected without delay. Jusdafax 07:08, 6 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm concerned about a claim in ENEnews.com that one of the reactors went supercritical, causing all of the reactor fuel to vaporize and leave the building. For now, this article could be balanced by admitting that there are two hardened sides to basic facts of the disaster events, which leads to a hypothesis that one side may be cooking the facts for political reasons, or perhaps both sides are cooking the facts. Paul Klinkman (talk) 00:51, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That claim is nonsensical on its face. Supercriticality does not result in the fissile material vaporizing; it results in an increase in the rate of fission in the fuel. Indeed, going "delayed crit" (supercritical due to delayed neutrons) is fundamental to any reactor startup or increase in power output; going "prompt crit" (supercritical due to prompt neutrons) is what makes for a runaway fission chain reaction with rather dramatic consequences. The reactors may have gone delayed crit during the accident, speeding the meltdown process, but that would not vaporize the fuel. Had any of them gone prompt crit, there would be vastly more visible damage, with an explosive yield of several tons of TNT. rdfox 76 (talk) 04:15, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Lead section

Now we have a single paragraph lead, which is inadequate, see WP:Lead. Much more is needed on social, political, and environmental issues (Useful source: Nuclear disaster at Fukushima Daichi). So I have added a couple of tags to provide guidance, regards, Johnfos (talk) 00:20, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 18 April 2016

– The word "disaster" in the titles of the articles above represents a sensationalist and anti-science characterization of an event referred to predominantly in scientific literature as an "accident": "The Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear power plant accident"[1], "IAEA Releases Director General’s Report on Fukushima Daiichi Accident"[2], "Health Risk Assessment From the Nuclear Accident After the 2011 Great East Japan Earthquake and Tsunami"[3], "Meltdown: Despite the Fear, the Health Risks from the Fukushima Accident Are Minimal"[4]. Characterizing the event accurately is important: "...the stoking of fear and misrepresentation, the botched response and forced evacuations, the ridiculous limits on low levels of radiation, the closing of all nuclear plants and the increase of coal- oil- and gas-fired electricity, and the politicization of the tragedy – these have huge and lasting effects."[5] Wtmusic (talk) 16:01, 18 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

  • Oppose all - Three nuclear reactor meltdowns and long-lasting relocations of many thousands of residents is self-evidently a disaster. The article titles have been stable for over five years. Radioactive releases are in fact ongoing, with the location three highly radioactive cores currently unclear. This looks very much to me like an attempt to "scrub" Wikipedia. Jusdafax 03:33, 19 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
By what definition are these events self-evidently a disaster? • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 08:51, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose It was caused by a natural disaster, so isn't an "accident", it was an incident that was part of a natural disaster. And it was a triple meltdown, so nuclear disaster is appropos -- 70.51.45.100 (talk) 06:22, 19 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously not everything caused by a natural disaster qualifies as "disastrous", or even as part of it (the tsunami was not "part of" the Tohoku earthquake). A "disaster" without deaths or injuries, even when significant financial loss is involved, amounts to inappropriate hyperbole. Wtmusic (talk) 07:23, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously with a triple meltdown it is not hyperbole to call it a "disaster". You are over focused on human death to make things disasters. Financial disaster can happen without death. And your obvious denigration of nuclear meltdowns does not help your point. At any rate, it's a disastrous incident and should not be called "accident" -- 70.51.45.100 (talk) 06:23, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Peter, it was officially designated an "accident":
"The INES system exists to communicate with the public about the severity and extent of a nuclear event. It is meant to provide a guide, such as the Richter scale for earthquakes, to qualify a nuclear accident. As such, it is important to accurately rate a radiological event in order to afford the public the time and information needed to take necessary precautions. The INES scale rates radiological events on seven levels. Levels 1-3 are termed “incidents,” and levels 4-7 are called 'accidents.'"[6]
It's been labeled many things as a marketing aid for sensationalist press, or to solicit donations in antinuclear activist literature. What it wasn't was a "disaster". That the article titles have been stable "for over five years" is irrelevant - they're incorrect.Wtmusic (talk) 14:48, 19 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It would appear that the official scale that you refer to does not include disaster as an option. Therefore it is appropriate to consider other assessment systems, which do contain disaster as an option. The incident could logically be considered both an accident, which refers to how it occurred, and a disaster, which refers more to the social consequences. I agree that the stability of the title is less relevant than the accuracy. We have had complete bullshit which was stable for over five years. I have not seen any convincing evidence to suggest that the accident was not a disaster, and Wikipedia is not constrained to using the terminology of any specific organisation. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 06:32, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The official scale of INES doesn't include "blasphemy" as an option either, but we would probably agree that's not an appropriate description of the event. Popular media quickly adopted the "disaster" theme to capitalize on the radiophobia of a public with little understanding of the subject. It seems that furthering understanding is a big part of Wikipedia's mission. Wtmusic (talk) 07:53, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My point is that you cannot measure something on a scale that does not include the possibility of its existence. Disaster is a valid concept, albeit not always well defined, and whether an incident qualifies for description as a disaster will be significantly influenced if it is measured on a scale which does not include disaster as a possible option. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 08:43, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's irrelevant and incorrect in your opinion but the stability of the the title demonstrates a strong existing consensus over a half decade. And to the tens of thousands of Japanese who still cannot occupy their former homes and towns due to radioactivity, it's a disaster. Your slam against "antinuclear activist literature" prompted a look at your editing history which shows your bias, and reveals you to be a Single Purpose Account, so you argument and slant, under WP:SPA are noteworthy. Jusdafax 22:04, 19 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The stability of the title reflects current popular understanding of the event whether accurate or not, and labeling the Fukushima Daiichi accident a "disaster" parrots sensationalistic media accounts without basis in fact. Immediately after the accident, so-called radiation "hot-spots" in the Fukushima-Daiichi exclusion zone delivered one-third of the excess dose of radiation received by residents of Denver, CO.[7]. In lieu of changing the title of Denver to "Denver Disaster Area", an "Overreaction to Fukushima nuclear accident" article would reflect a more accurate understanding of the event. 1,600 deaths, many among seniors age 90 and older, were attributed to "'fatigue' due to conditions in evacuation centers, exhaustion from relocating, and illness resulting from hospital closures. The survey also said a number of suicides had been attributed to the ordeal."[8] Another would be supplementation of Radiophobia, which contains an excellent account of similar phenomena at Chernobyl. The purpose of my contribution was not to slant anything, but to correct a biased or misunderstood perception of the subject under WP:SPA: "Although the community seeks to attract new and well-informed users knowledgeable in a particular subject, Wikipedia is not a platform for advocacy." Wtmusic (talk) 06:29, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Do any of the above organisations include disaster as a grade of incident? • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 06:36, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Peter, I am moving your question above Johnfos' !vote below, as I believe you are addressing me. To answer your question, I am quite sure that all agencies use the International Nuclear Event Scale developed by the IAEA. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 07:56, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You were correct in that assumption. If all the agencies use the same scale, and that scale does not include the category "disaster", then are we to assume that those organisations do not recognise any nuclear incident as a disaster? If that is the case then that scale cannot be used to decide if an incident qualifies as a disaster if one concedes the possibility that a nuclear disaster is a valid and physically possible concept. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 08:30, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
A quick search for a definition of disaster finds "A disaster is a sudden, calamitous event that seriously disrupts the functioning of a community or society and causes human, material, and economic or environmental losses that exceed the community’s or society’s ability to cope using its own resources. Though often caused by nature, disasters can have human origins" on the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies website, which could reasonably be considered fairly authoritative and a plausibly reliable source.
Testing the Fukushima Daiichi incident against this definition:
  • sudden ✓ Pass
  • calamitous ✓ Pass
  • seriously disrupts the functioning of a community (or society) ✓ Pass
  • causes human, material and economic or environmental losses that exceed the community's (or society's) ability to cope using its own resources ✓ Pass
  • can have human or natural origins ✓ Pass
The event appears to pass on all counts as a local (community) disaster, but not on a national (society) scale. It appears to me that both accident and disaster are appropriate terms in this case. As to which is better, I do not know. Accident is technically correct and appropriately encyclopaedic, Disaster also fits according to what I consider a world authority on disasters. One could say a very serious accident, and a moderate scale disaster. I would accept either as a reasonable title, provided that the content is unbiased. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 09:19, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Peter, "sudden" is a stretch. According to Timeline of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster no threat to the public was present until a full two days after the earthquake; "calamitous" is considered a synonym for "disastrous" (tautology); what seriously disrupted the functioning of the local community were the effects of the earthquake, tsunami, the bungled/exaggerated official response, and the panic which ensued; no doubt the accident caused economic and environmental losses, but significant is the conjunction "and": there were no human losses (deaths) as a result of the nuclear accident; agree that the accident had both human and natural origins. The word "disaster" is not included in the INES scale for the very reason it has emotional associations which are unhelpful for assessment purposes, and can even be dangerous. It's time to give the accident some proper historical context and move beyond popular media accounts. The aphorism "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so" is often attributed to Mark Twain. Ironically, it's likely the attribution itself "just ain't so."[13] Wtmusic (talk) 15:32, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
While tabloids use sensationalist language in order to draw eyes and increase sales; no surprise there either. Which would you prefer this encyclopedia to resemble Johnfos? AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 07:51, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Wikipedia considers the enduring notability of persons and events. While news coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion. For example, routine news reporting on things like announcements, sports, or celebrities is not a sufficient basis for inclusion in the encyclopedia. While including information on recent developments is sometimes appropriate, breaking news should not be emphasized or otherwise treated differently from other information. Timely news subjects not suitable for Wikipedia may be suitable for our sister project Wikinews.
  • Oppose Although it was initially caused by a natural disaster, human error and human decisions building the site had a great impact, how this could evolve. After the years gone by, the site is still seriously polluting the world with nuclear waste. Japan and TEPCO cannot stop that at all. So nuclear disaster is sure the right way to describe this "event" 1947enkidu (talk) 06:52, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What's the basis for your understanding "the site is still seriously polluting the world with nuclear waste", and if so, that "Japan and TEPCO cannot stop that at all"? Wtmusic (talk) 08:04, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Would you suggest, that the site is not leaking anything radioactive material anymore? That the frozen walls have stopped all groundwater entering the buidings ? I never did read anywhere, that all reactors are sealed off completely... 1947enkidu (talk) 11:47, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – There is no advantage to using the value-laden "disaster" in this case. Indeed, our MoS tells us not to bring emotional labels into the encylopaedia unless they are the most common form. In this case, whilst a disaster certainly occurred, that disaster encompassed the whole range of events from the earthquake to the tsunami to the nuclear accident. As this article is only about the accident, there is no reason why it should not be titled as such. The survey of government agencies above is quite telling. Much of the opposition above seems rooted in emotion, but that should not be brought into the matter of deciding the appropriate title for these articles, per WP:NPOV, MOS:LABEL, and WP:NOTNEWS. RGloucester — ☎ 23:14, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose one of our five naming criteria is WP:CONSISTENCY. The only other level 7 accident is Chernobyl disaster. I find the argument that the title inherently violates NPOV to be unconvincing. VQuakr (talk) 00:39, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
VQuakr, both level 7 accidents also described in Nuclear and radiation accidents and incidents, so titles are inconsistent among articles on Chernobyl. In that accident, 31 workers died within minutes of the initial explosion - a disaster by any standard. Characterization of a casualty-free nuclear accident as a "disaster" is radiophobic and thus violates NPOV. Wtmusic (talk) 05:00, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, you have made your opinion clear in your replies to every single oppose !vote. Not sure why you think the title of the list is more relevant than the title of the actual Chernobyl disaster, though. VQuakr (talk) 06:25, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Refs

  1. ^ http://www.unscear.org/unscear/en/fukushima.html
  2. ^ https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/iaea-releases-director-general%E2%80%99s-report-fukushima-daiichi-accident
  3. ^ http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/10665/78218/1/9789241505130_eng.pdf
  4. ^ http://science.time.com/2013/03/01/meltdown-despite-the-fear-the-health-risks-from-the-fukushima-accident-are-minimal/
  5. ^ http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2015/03/16/the-fukushima-disaster-wasnt-very-disastrous/#665123ff51e7
  6. ^ http://isis-online.org/isis-reports/detail/characterizing-the-crisis-at-fukushima-daiichi-nuclear-power-station/
  7. ^ http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444772404577589270444059332
  8. ^ http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/fukushima-evacuation-has-killed-more-earthquake-tsunami-survey-says-f8C11120007
  9. ^ http://www.nrc.gov/reactors/operating/ops-experience/japan-dashboard.html
  10. ^ http://www.french-nuclear-safety.fr/Inspections/European-stress-tests/Follow-up-Activities-National-Action-Plans/2015-National-Action-Plans-Workshop
  11. ^ https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/focus/fukushima
  12. ^ http://www.oecd-nea.org/news/2016/2016-01.html
  13. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Josh_Billings#cite_note-1
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