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September 18

history of Spanish language

Is it true that there was a King in Spain's history who had a speech impediment and could not pronounce the /s/ sound, so he ordered that everyone should pronounce "s" as the /th/ sound, which we hear in Castillian but not im Mexico? If that is only a rumor, how did it change from /th/ sound to /s/ sound in the Americas? Thank you!!

No, this is a common myth. Read this and this for more information. Bhumiya (said/done) 01:39, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Do people really pronounce /s/ in Mexico? I didn't think "i'panics" pronounced /s/ anywhere... Btw, I'd prefer IPA. 惑乱 分からん 10:18, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Good for you! If we start requiring that every question on this desk use IPA and nothing else, the only people left will be linguists -- and I hope you recognize that that would be a bad thing. Tesseran 09:43, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

What's wrong with IPA? I'm fine as long as we don't get X-SAMPA up in here. Hyenaste ^(tell) 00:00, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

coda (i.e., syllable final) /s/ is definitely pronounced in most of Mexico. In general, you can say in Latin America that if it's inland, the /s/ is pronounced as something like [s]. If it's near the coast, it's [h] or nada, Lima being the biggest exception and there are a few others.

I remember reading an amusing debunking in snopes.com of the Spanish king lisp business but I couldn't find it searching the site. Anyone have a URL. What bugs me about that legend is that it is so bigoted. It depends on the assumption that the Spanish are or were so blindly authoritarian that they would massively latch onto even a speech defect of their king. mnewmanqc 13:48, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

The version of the myth I heard was that the courtiers adopted the pronunciation spontaneously to flatter the king, rather than it being commanded. Either way it's hogwash. ColinFine 23:35, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Simultaneous Interpretation

A professional interpreter once explained to me that if he were a native bilingual, this would be more of a burden to performing his job. He said the 'need to translate' was much greater, if one of the languages (usually source, but also target) was an acquired second language; this motivational difference gave him (and other monolinguals) the edge over bilingual translators. I have to admit that he was an amazingly fast and accurate interpreter, who also replicated due emotional emphasis in his voice. Individual differences between interpreters are greater than any potential motivational edge, and native bilinguals carry their own obvious advantages too, but, all other things being equal, I still wonder whether there could be any truth to this or not. My question is whether you know anything about this and what your experiences are. Thank you.---Sluzzelin 13:46, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I've read about ways in which bilingual or bidialectal speakers code switch back and forth depending on context, thus the two registers occupy contextual roles and are used depending on what the speaker talks about, the emotions the speaker is trying to convey, etc. This may not be the case with someone who learns a second language later on and sees both languages as capable of being used in the same situations etc. Although when learning a second language it's going to slow you down if you construct a phrase in your native language and then try to translate it rather than just constructing a phrase in the second language. AEuSoes1 22:07, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

My experience is that interpreters are often highly competitive people, and that bilingual interpreters tend to look down on non-bilingual interpreters, and vice-versa. But bilingualism is itself a much-debated topic; some linguists even claim that no such thing exists. Mu 02:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Given any two randomly selected researchers in a field such as second-language acquisition, translation, bilingualism, et sim., you are bound to have two researchers who disagree vehemently over whether bilinguals are inherently better or worse simultaneous interpreters. The main problem is that much of the evidence is subjective. It’s a wonderful topic for a PhD dissertation, if you’re so inclined... — Jéioosh 04:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your replies. True, I have seen many conflicting reports even on neurological studies concerning mono-/bi-/multilinguality. And I think you're right, most of this was probably trash talk. ---Sluzzelin 07:30, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Total Undergraduates at all Division 1 universities

I would like a list of all divsion 1 schools with out going through each respective university for their totals

Thank you very much

Douglas L Diershow

What has this to do with language?--Light current 02:27, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I guess it's written in a language. Other than that not much. --AstoVidatu 03:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Does our list of universities help you?--Shantavira 06:07, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Arabic text, requesting translation

Google translate wouldn't help much... Can somebody, please, translate this into English or a romance language? Thank you very much.

1.KEAM says:

تصبحي على خير باي فش نصيب لك تحكي معي باي اه بس عرفك على حالي انا اسمي توفيق من المشهد بتحبي تحكي اشي انا بقولك عن حالي تعرفي شو بس انتي اسألي النجوم بدلولي علي صدقيني بس عرفيني علا حالك؟

2.KEAM says:

تصبحي على خير باي فش نصيب لك تحكي معي باي اه بس عرفك على حالي انا اسمي توفيق من المشهد بتحبي تحكي اشي انا بقولك عن حالي تعرفي شو بس انتي اسألي النجوم بدلولي علي صدقيني بس عرفيني علا حالك؟

3.KEAM says:

حكي واضح

4.KEAM says:

يذا بدكيش النجوم بس سألي قمر قمر ميش موجود صباح اسألي شمس ويشمس بدلك علي وسدقيني رايحه شمس توقلك

5.KEAM says:

يذا بدكيش النجوم بس سألي قمر قمر ميش موجود صباح اسألي شمس ويشمس بدلك علي وسدقيني رايحه شمس توقلك

6.KEAM says:

سري على الزعاج

Which Arabic dialect is it? Of which nationality were the speakers? Are you sure it isn't Persian? (See Arabic script#Arabic_alphabets_of_other_languages) (As a footnote, the 1st and 2nd, as well as the 4th and 5th post appear to be the same.) 惑乱 分からん 14:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

It kind of looks Arabic -- words like شمس "sun", اسمي "my name", على "on", and انا "I". But there are strange repeated words and other apparent oddities, and at my level of knowledge of Arabic, an overall subject matter doesn't leap out. I'm reluctant to devote a significant amount of time to it without knowing whether they're actual real sentences... AnonMoos 14:44, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

September 19

Key to pronunciation guid

Hello

I've been looking for a list of Proto-Indo-European roots, which Wikipedia has furnished me with List_of_Proto-Indo-European_roots.

However, I can't work out what the pronunciation key is to the roots - it doesn't seem to be the IPA symbols.

Can anybody help? Or am I being silly?

(also, if this is a common mistake people make, I will see what editing I can do to help people on the myriad otherwise excellent pages on languages and linguistics).

Cheers,

Michael Nash

The actual pronunciation of PIE is debated — we don't know with certainty. The transcription used is just a convention. --Ptcamn 04:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Proto-Indo-European language#Phonology should be of help. Thylacoleo 05:33, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Headline text (dialogues of South African English ?)

varieties of english language but what i would like to know are the varieties in the South African english

I would start with the South African English article. Some of the external links there might lead you to the information you are looking for. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 12:13, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

definition of Presque vu

Do you have a definition of Presque vu and Jamais vu Thanks Steve Knaeble

This is French. "Presque vu" means "almost/nearly seen" and "Jamais vu" means "never seen". I don't know why you are asking, but if you wonder why Wikipedia only has an article about Deja vu (already seen), it's because "deja vu" is a French phrase that's been commonly borrowed into English (as well as several other languages). 惑乱 分からん 16:42, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I seem to recall all three phrases from the novel Catch-22. Durova 17:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Presque vu is the experience that you are just about to be enlightened by some sort of mystical experience that never quite arrives. Jamais vu is the feeling that your current very ordinary experience is unique or something you are having for the first time ever. Both experiences are rarer than deja vu and are thought to be related to it. --John Cowan 05:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

What is the key to writing minutes.

I record and type minutes for the County Board and Committees. I am needing help in using proper terminology and relivant wording.

Reading through the minutes of meetings past would tell you what other people have done, and you could ask your colleagues for feedback on previous minutes - ask questions such as what did they like? What needs to stay and what needs to change? What will be the most useful format for the recipients? Googling county board minutes gives you this, which will give you an idea of different types of minutes and the terminology used (if you don't fall asleep first). Otherwise, use direct quotes when important points are made, and summarise the rest of the discussion in a way that the people reading it will understand. It would also be worthwhile familiarising yourself with the topics of discussion, so you understand what you are writing about and can explain it well in writing - reading through all the agenda documents, then searching/ asking for information on the stuff you don't know would be a good place to start. Natgoo 17:58, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Many board specify Roberts Rules as the standard, and that book may give you guidance. A board I was on established a standard that the secretary was not required to be a stenographer who wrote down whatever anyone said. Rather, he was to record such things as what board members attended and which were absent or excused, whether there was a quorom, that the meeting was convened and adjourned, motions, seconds, and the results of votes. Comments could be added ad lib, but were not part of the minutes per se.Edison 05:31, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

You might find minutes helpful. And don't forget to check your spelling.--Shantavira 07:15, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Unfamiliar Idiom: Top of the Rosa

Has anyone heard this term before? It's either "top of the rose" or "top of the rosa" meaning a new start/a fresh start.71.136.46.108 20:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Tabula rasa, a clean slate. Rmhermen 21:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

As written in the article: (Latin: scraped tablet/clean slate) 惑乱 分からん 21:38, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

This seems to be a newly discovered mondegreen. The linguistic community is no doubt abuzz. JackofOz 22:55, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

It’s an eggcorn, not a mondegreen. — Jéioosh 03:55, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Has anyone looked at the articles on eggcorn and mondegreen? They seem to have a serious overlap. Somebody's gotta fix that. AEuSoes1 08:44, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

You beat me to it. This probably isn't the place to discuss the matter, but ... what the hell. According to Eggcorn, the essential difference between an eggcorn and a mondegreen is that the latter is found in a song, poem or similar. But according to Mondegreen, being found in a song, poem or similar is not a defining feature of a mondegreen, and indeed the article contains numerous examples of mondegreens that are not related to such things. Both eggcorns and mondegreens seem to be the result of mishearing. I really can't see any material difference between mishearing "next door" as "next store" (allegedly an eggcorn), and mishearing "grand parade" as "Grandpa raid" (a mondegreen). The term "eggcorn" was apparently coined only 3 years ago; has it really established itself so quickly among linguists? JackofOz 09:25, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

The difference is that an eggcorn involves a semantic reanalysis: users of an eggcorn think they know what it means, and are able to argue that their version is actually correct, while this is not the case for most mondegreens.

Hearing "next door" as "next store", you can construct an etymology for either; "next door" is not much more logical as a general term for the next room or building, given that something can be "next door" even if it doesn't have any doors, so it's equally reasonable (in the absence of etymological data) to assume that it's "next store" and was originally only used on shopping streets. On the other hand, nobody in their right mind would think that "grandpa raid" was correct, even if they were certain that that was what they'd heard. — Haeleth Talk 16:39, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that's the humourous aspect of mondegreens, that people do think they're right. But if your definition is accurate, then "top of the rosa" is a mondegreen rather than an eggcorn.AEuSoes1 18:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Translation of the spanish word "Enyerbamiento"

What does the word "Enyerbamiento" mean in the following passage?

b) Enyerbamiento:

Puede ser natural o artificial (26 pp 71) y al contrario del laboreo, el enyerbamiento favorece el desarrollo de la actividad biológica y de la microflora del suelo, actividad que más tarde será importante para el desarrollo del ascocarpo (22 pp 158).

Cuando la parcela entre en producción, será interesante tener (22 pp 158), una cobertura vegetal, sobre la totalidad o solamente una parte de la plantación, controlado por el pase de una desbrozadora.

Thanks for the help Crazy Wolf 21:38, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Appears to be some kind of plant? 惑乱 分からん 21:40, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

It is a method of working the ground in a tree plantation to remove weeds. The other methods are tilling, chemicals, and a mixed method. But I'm not sure what this method is supposed to be. Could it mean mulching? -- Crazy Wolf 21:51, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it means to "cover in grass/herbs", but to be honest, it's one of the words in that spanish text which I can't make out... Otherwise, the text seems fairly simple. 惑乱 分からん 23:14, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I think it means first growing maté to get the soil working in preparation for agricultural production. Jameswilson 00:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure Yerba mate is required? Yerba allegedly only means "herb", and I think several different kinds would be sufficient. (Where are all the fluent hispanics when you need them?) 惑乱 分からん 09:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I suspect that it means covering the ground with grass, herbs, or even weeds. The point is to cover the ground with vegetation to promote the development of soil microorganism. My guess is that this is a preparation for the cultivation of mushrooms, since an "ascocarpo" (ascocarp) is a kind of mushroom. Marco polo 18:07, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

French "enherbement" would translate that if it was a French word. It would mean what's been hinted by Wakuran : let the herbs grow and cover ground.

So, "el enyerbamiento favorece el desarrollo de la actividad biológica y de la microflora del suelo" shall be "the grass cover shall ease the growth of biological activity and of the microflore of the ground." -- DLL ^{.. T} 18:26, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

No I'm not insisting on maté specifically. Just me stereotyping Latin America. BTW is this just for previously uncultivated soil or is it also for decontamination as when they grow cabbages to decontaminate the soil around old steelworks? 23:43, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

September 20

Tan bella como los días en verano?

Has the song "My Cherie Amour" by Stevie Wonder been translated and recorded in any dialect of the Spanish language? Hyenaste ^(tell) 00:44, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

'Pupil' and 'student'

The word 'pupil' meaning a child at school seems to be falling out of favour. In the UK now, children at school are invariably referred to as 'students'. I think there is an agenda here - 'student' sounds cooler and less deferential than 'pupil'. But to me, students attend colleges and universities, while pupils attend schools. Any comments? --Richardrj ^{talk email} 08:27, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

There's a similar distinction in Swedish, if that'd matter. 惑乱 分からん 09:44, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I think of pupils as being more of a bright-eyed bunch. :-) StuRat 10:18, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

One point!--Light current 03:03, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't that be 'dark-eyed'? (Or do I miss a 'point' here?) DirkvdM 06:39, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

"Bright eyed" or, better yet, "bright eyed and bushy-tailed", means excited and willing to learn. StuRat 17:33, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Right, I got that bit. Sorry about pointing out a flaw in your pun. Then again, 'dark eyed' might suggest you're looking at the wrong end. Which might result in charges for 'child molestation', depending on whether you're looking at a pupil or a student. :) DirkvdM 05:51, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I think, while the Swedish student probably is equivalent with the English student, the Swedish elev might sometimes be slightly different from the English pupil. I heard a Swedish teacher (on university level) who preferred elev to student, since he thought that while student simply describes your position in society, elev indicates a respectful relation to a person who shares his knowledge with you (like an apprentice or disciple). So, you'd be student in the administrative database of your university and elev when interacting with your teacher. —Bromskloss 08:15, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

"Pupil" does indeed usually refer to those who go to primary school. I think "pupils" is being replaced by "students" because "student" sounds more mature and important. -- the GREAT Gavini 11:49, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Which doesn't make the children themselves any more mature or important than they were when they were called pupils, of course. This usage stinks, IMHO. Ah, the tribulations of being a language prescriptivist. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 12:19, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm a former teacher and loathed the term 'students' for 'pupils'. Not only do children miss out on their own childhoods by being swept into a faux adulthood, but it makes them think they're on a par with their teachers. Teachers can no longer tell pupils what to do, they have to build a relationship them and reason with them as if they were equals. As Mrs. Krabappel would say 'Haa!!!' I'm much happier now, btw, as a former teacher :D . Rentwa 13:30, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't they have to lower the drinking age quite considerably before pupils could properly be thought of as students?--Shantavira 15:00, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Teachers who are stoned tend to have large pupils. Edison 17:21, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

2 points--Light current 03:04, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I think you're giving too much power to the word, Rentwa. I really doubt most children feel more empowered or even adult-like by the term "student" (especially if, like me, they had never been called "pupil") although if they do feel that way it's probably something entirely different causing it like Paris Hilton or global warming. AEuSoes1 18:07, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I've been there (only during training fortunately). Children (especially in deprived areas of the UK) percieve no qualitative difference between themselves and their teachers in terms of social status, human rights, respect for authority, age deference etc. They consider their views (mostly swallowed whole from TV adverts and pop music) and wishes (childish, irresponsible and un-thought out) to be as valid as their elders and betters, and there are plenty of politically motivated people encouraging them to think so. I'm not saying the language is to entirely to blame, but it's part of it and it's political. Like 'empowered'. Rentwa 10:21, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it's an Americanism. "Pupil" sounds incredibly stuck-up and snobbish to the American (and even Canadian) ear. --Charlene.fic 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily. I know one American newspaper's style is to use "pupil" for elementary and middle-schoolers and "student" for high school and college. "Kindergarten student" sounds funny. -- Mwalcoff 22:42, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

"Kindergarten pupil" sounds even more bizarre, to me. One would talk of a school's pupils, or a teacher's pupils, but not of a kindergarten pupil. User:Zoe|(talk) 02:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

A children's garden iris. Odd indeed. DirkvdM 06:39, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Not so odd. Irises are often found growing in gardens where children play. That would make it a "children's iris garden", or Kinderpupilgarten. If only I knew the German word for iris (the plant), then my task here would be complete. JackofOz 07:06, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Follow the interwiki link. It's Schwertlilie or, surprise, Iris :) —da Pete (ばか) 07:34, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

(smacks forehead) Dumkopf! Danke, da Pete. OK, I suppose that gives us Kinderschwertliliegarten. This has become too tangential even for me now. JackofOz 09:03, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Why must we provide reasons? There are no reasons why words become preferred over others, and some words die out. It is a chaotic system. — X [Mac Davis] (SUPERDESK|Help me improve)18:48, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I would say that a pupil is someone who receives education, whereas a student is someone who seeks to be educated - the former being passive, the latter being active. It therefore implies that a person is making a choice to better themselves, though this point of view is clearly open to interpretation --russ 21:03, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

french recipies

i was looking for recipies in french in the internet but i found their language a bit too tough for me . this is a french project for me to do , but i have been learning french for only a few months and so i am familiar with verbs like faire ,eplucher,mettre,melanger so please could u tell me about any simple recipies [[mightright]mightright]212.72.3.205 14:38, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Simple? How simple? I mean, making bouillon from a cube is a recipe, and it's pretty simple. There's a French recipe Wikibook that might help. The recipe for Croque-monsieur is pretty straightforward, although it does require a grille à croques-monsieurs that might not be on the market where you live. --Diderot 14:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh man, you made me hungry! So, let's see, I have bread, ham, cheese, butter, basil and mabye even some sausage. Thats it, on y va, off to make a croque-monsieur! —Bromskloss 08:30, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

by simple i mean the recipe should be in simple french because i havent learnt many verbs snce i am a beginner . (please dont take an offense but why do you think i would ask for a recipe guide in a language desk 212.72.3.205 15:15, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, then I guess your best option would be to take a look at the French recipes I pointed to and see if there are any that you can figure out. You've listed four verbs and I can't think of any non-trivial recipes that just use those four verbs, so you might find it hard to identify a recipe where you already know all the words. I guess the simplest strategy would be to look for a short one. --Diderot 16:03, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Place name that starts with Y and ends with J?

Anybody know a place name, city, state, country, province, etc. that starts with a Y and ends with a J? It can be any length, as this is not for a crossword puzzle.

Yalxoroj, Yasuj, Yaroslavj and you too can wade through Special:Prefixindex MeltBanana 16:25, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I think there are some place name lists you could skim through on the Internet. I remember one list including information with annual rainfall for all places listed, but I don't remember the link... 惑乱 分からん 16:34, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I found one list now, but it's quite tedious to look through:

• http://www.earthsearch.net/featureIndex.php?type=int&start=5369000&end=5370000 (Y start)
• http://www.earthsearch.net/featureIndex.php?type=int&start=5437000&end=5438000 (Y end)

惑乱 分からん 16:45, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Yaroslavj appears to be a typo. There are some conventions for transliterating Cyrillic that use j, but they don't also use ya. —Tamfang 07:05, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Cool, that works. Thanks!!!

---

Commas

If in a paragraph, I am talking about the past and giving dates ect. Then I say, "Today, the building has been restored to its old colors."

Does a comma follow Today?

Yes. --Lambiam^Talk 17:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that it is necessary. "Today the building has been restored" sounds fine to my ears", and the version with a comma sounds a bit strange. I would use the comma if it was an antithesis ("Yesterday, the building was destroyed. Today, the building has been restored."). —Daniel (‽) 17:44, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

When was the building restored? Today? or before today?--Light current 19:16, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Good point. "Has been restored" means the color restoration occurred some time in the past - which could be months, years, decades or even centuries before today. So, saying this is true "today" adds no value at all. You could simply leave the "today" out entirely, or rephrase it as "The building has since been restored to its old colors". JackofOz 21:06, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

What about this example?

The great building was built in 1097. In 1234 is was repainted. Later the buidling was closed off. Today, people are allowed inside the buidling for pictures.

Most public restrooms are located in a "buidling" - you know, those places you go to for piddling. Not sure I want to be taking any photos there. But StuRat probably has his camera at the ready.  :--) JackofOz 03:03, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

This is probably one of those examples where comma usage is being phased out by lazy punctuators. Historically the comma was an absolute necessity, and it would be proper to keep the comma even now. A teacher may not mark you down for forgetting it on a test(,) though.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  03:08, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Traditionally, it is considered correct to place a comma after introductory adverbs and adverb phrases; so I prefer the comma. Having said that, it is not absolutely necessary. In your second example, I feel a comma is necessary after today to avoid confusion; i.e., today could be misread as an adjective modifying people (what the heck are today people?). I've recast your second example: "The great building was built [or constructed or completed, etc.] in 1097 and repainted in 1234. Closed off to the public for many years, people are now allowed inside the building for pictures." —Wayward ^Talk 04:20, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Closed off to the public for many years, people are now allowed inside the building for pictures. Is "dangling modifier" the term I want? Although building does appear in the sentence, syntax suggests that closed belongs to people. As a careful writer, this can be comical. —Tamfang 06:59, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

You're right. "Closed off for many years, the building is now open to the public." —Wayward ^Talk 03:48, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

french translation

is the french translation for "the indian cuisine" :"la cuisine indenne"212.72.15.107 17:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

La cuisine indienne. I'm sure that's what you meant but I didn't want a typo to go further than that. AEuSoes1 18:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

so only my spelling is wrong what about the accent or cap"Mightright 18:06, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

No caps, no accents. In French, only proper nouns are capitalized, not derived adjectives. None of the words you used has a diacritic mark. --Diderot 18:39, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Indian cuisine, as in Native American cuisine, would be la cuisine amérindienne, probably. -- the GREAT Gavini 15:36, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

OT, but an Indian restaurant in Cambridge used to advertise 'Indian provençale cuisine'. I think they thought 'provençale' was a posh way of writing 'provincial'. ColinFine 12:08, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Schleimstoffe

What's the best translation for the German word de:Schleimstoffe? Slime-stuff? I can't find it in any German dictionaries. Also, please translate that German article and put it on the English Wikipedia, if it's any good. —Keenan Pepper 19:26, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Stoffe is plural, the singular form is "Schleimstoff", "Stoff" has got a different meaning than stuff, rather meaning "material" or "matter". http://dict.leo.org gives the translation fibril, and it appears the German article is about medicinal plants. 惑乱 分からん 20:09, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Without context I would have interpreted 'Schleimstoffe' as meaning mucin. In a herbal-medicinal context it seems to refer to any 'slimy' or mucous polysaccharide, such as xylan, secreted by a plant. ---Sluzzelin 07:00, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Keenan, if you think the German article is worth translating, why don't you have a crack at it? ColinFine 12:09, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't appear that Keenan knows any German... 惑乱 分からん 12:58, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Nope. I know guten Tag and gesundheit and that's about it. =P —Keenan Pepper

Oh, right. I suggest you put it on Wikipedia:German-English translation requests. ColinFine 18:11, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the meaning is "mucilaginous substances". This appears to include both mucilage and mucopolysaccharides. I don't think the claims made in the German article can be scientifically substantiated in the generality with which they are stated. For me this is Category:Pseudoscience. --Lambiam^Talk 22:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

effort

I need some ways that you can help people giving some effort

Rephrase, please? 惑乱 分からん 20:20, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Pushing helps. Sometimes pulling.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  23:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Has the phrase 'suitly emphazi' gone out of fashion? DirkvdM 06:45, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Collective nouns and possessives

I have a couple minor grammar questions. First, which these are correct:

• He goes to Frank and my school
• He goes to Frank's and my school
• He goes to Frank and Bob's school
• He goes to Frank's and Bob's school

in each case referring to only a single school. Is it 1 and 3 or 2 and 4? Also, regarding collective nouns, would it be correct (in American English) to say "The Yankees is my favorite team," or must you say "The Yankees are..."? Does the same rule apply for "The Yankees are/is playing tonight?" (Talking about the New York Yankees here if there's any confusion). I get the impression from here that only "are" is acceptable in both cases in both American and British English. Is this correct? Any style guide or similar sources would be much appreciated as well. Thanks. -Elmer Clark 21:29, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Sentence three is right; four is wrong. "The Yankees is" is incorrect in American English, because the word "Yankees" is plural. But it is correct to say "Nine Inch Nails is great." -- Mwalcoff 22:43, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

What about The Beatles? Is they great? JackofOz 07:00, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

In British English it would be more likely (than in American English) to use "the Yankees is", but I guess do the fact that the name ends in an s, there is a strong tendancy to use are. It also depends a little on context, i.e. if you are talking about the team as an organization, or as a bunch of players.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  23:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Erm, is it? This seems to suggest otherwise. "The Yankees is" sounds quite weird to British ears. -- the GREAT Gavini 15:26, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I guess I was over-attributing the culture difference. I can see now that the "s" on the end makes the rule.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  06:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

In British usage it is the sense that matters, so we can say both 'the government is' and 'the government are', depending on whether we are considering the government as a body or a group of people. However, because of the plural word, I don't think there are many contexts in which we would say 'the Yankees is'. ColinFine 12:15, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Examples two and three are correct. When one of the possessors in a compound possessive is a personal pronoun, as in the first two examples, both possessors must be in the possessive form (example two). However, I think example two is awkward and would rephrase the sentence: "He goes to the same school as Frank and I." As for the second question, "The Yankees are playing Sunday," but "New York is playing on Sunday," and "The team plays on Sunday." —Wayward ^Talk 04:00, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

A rule of thumb for analyzing usage in sentence 1 and 2 is to remove a clause and see if it seems right: "He goes to Frank school" sounds wrong, so I would say "He goes to Frank's and my school." Number 3 sounds right only if "Frank n' Bob" are an item and you can hardly think of one without the other, as in "He fought in George and Tony's war in Iraq." If the two are not normally a pair, I would make each possessive, and choose number 4.

OR usage

In a recent dinosaur comic, the sentence "I can't brush and floss three times a day plus after every snack, drink, or intense fantasy about food." appeared. Should the last or not technically be and? And if not, what's with this weird ambiguity?  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  23:43, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

"I think its OK. Lists dont have to be lists of "ands": you can also have lists of "ors", if you see what I mean. "I havent decided whether to go to France, Italy or Greece for my holiday". If you think of this list as "snack OR drink..." rather than "and" then the next "or" is logical. Jameswilson 23:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Well that depends on the purpose of the list. "I haven't decided to go to France, Italy, or Greece" makes sense because it's not physically possible to go to more than one, i.e. the choice is limited to only one.

Another example would be "I'm not allowed to floss, brush, or eat", which means that any one (or more, because in this case it is possible to choose many) would constitute some sort of concequence.

But, "I can't run and play or eat" sounds counterintuitive (to me) because of the strange combination of "and" and "or". I understand that in the first example I gave, "or" might not be completely wrong, but I definitely think "and" should have been used for clarity.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  03:01, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that "and" appears more technically correct, but it introduces an ambiguity that could suggest snack + drink + fantasy, then floss (ie. after all three together). "Or" indicates that only one of these is necessary.--Shantavira 06:40, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting you should mix "ands" and "ors". But I've re-read it and I still the author meant this to be an "or" list not an "and" list - "every snack or drink, etc". I.e., he's giving a list of possible occasions after which you are supposed to floss. Anyway we'll have to agree to disagree. Jameswilson 23:21, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. I think that the distance from my homeland is obscuring my ability to sense how natural a choice of words is. His name is Ryan, by the way, and his Canadian English is impeccable.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  06:12, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

September 21

nonsequitur similes

Is there a recognised class of similes that involve non sequiturs? I'm thinking of expressions like 'fat as mud', 'laughing like drains', 'right as rain' - idioms that make sense only on a kind of abstracted, almost lyrical level Adambrowne666 03:57, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Generally, it might fit the category Catachresis. To describe it, I would perhaps call it an illogical simile.---Sluzzelin 06:21, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the referral to catachresis, an interesting term, but it doesn't exactly fit here, I think. I was hoping there might be an established name for them; I was thinking it might be a fun WP article to write, but of course I can only do it if it's not original researchAdambrowne666 12:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think they are anything more then idioms "an expression whose meaning cannot be deduced from the literal definitions and the arrangement of its parts". Often strange similes are due to original meanings being lost rather then a concious effort to confuse. Only an evil plant-hater would think there is nothing right with rain and the right here may mean straight rather then good, or the expression may be related to the older "right as range". From OED "fat 5. Of mould, clay, etc.: Containing much soluble or plastic matter; having a ‘greasy’ feeling to the touch; sticky. Of limestone: Containing much lime, and few impurities; hence, Pure." As for the last you must have a good plumber as I have often heard drains gurgle. MeltBanana 13:23, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but have you ever heard a drain laugh? Excellent answer, though - I suppose I was wondering if the similes that have worn down to nonsense through age (as opposed to ones that still make some sense, for example 'to compare apples and oranges') are classed under a recognised subset. User:Adambrowne666|Adambrowne666]] 07:52, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Personification

What is the opposite of Personification

It depends on the context I guess. Objectification? Abstraction? Dehumanization?---Sluzzelin 09:09, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Another alternative: reification. - Nunh-huh 03:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

There's a KISS album called Animalize.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  06:06, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean 'the opposite'? Why do you think this is a meaningful phrase? ColinFine 12:18, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Multi-lingual dictionary or thesaurus?

Is there any multi-lingual dictionary or thesaurus, either on the internet or on paper? Given a word whose language is not known, I want the meaning of the word, in a single place, in the other languages.

Also, is there any scheme for phonetic ordering (parallel to lexicographic ordering) of words?

—Masatran 11:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

The "Online Etymology Dictionary" at http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=w&p=7 is one look at the meaning of a word, over time, in various languages.Edison 14:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Wiktionary is a possibility for the first part of your question. -- the GREAT Gavini 15:40, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

...although that is still in development. My OED CD-ROM can list words by phonetic transcription, in IPA, and presumably there is an equivalent facility in their on-line version, though you will probably have to pay a subscription to access it.--Shantavira 18:03, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Non-linguistic term for nouns with same singular and plural form

There is a term for nouns that have the same singular and plural form. I am thinking of less of a technical, linguistic term and more of a word that might be used more commonly. Also, the same singular and plural form I have in mind relates to occurrences primarily in English rather than another language, such as German, where they are more frequent.

209.219.70.3 16:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC)Allen Bass

I haven't the foggiest. The linguistic term would be uninflected plural or zero plural, I think. --Kjoonlee 01:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

You can read about at English plural#Nouns with identical singular and plural. --hydnjo talk 01:59, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

An older term is "indeclinable". AnonMoos 06:08, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Yet words that have the same nominative form in singular and plural are still declined for the possessive case, eg. sheep's wool. JackofOz 04:10, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks "AnonMoos". It may be an older term but it is still in use. I ran it through the OED site and found a description of a word as being the indeclinable varient of another.

Looking for a term

Is there a term for a redundant description for a word in language?

For example, "real reality", "round circle" or, one I came across the other day, "diametric opposite"—Mitaphane _talk 19:20, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Note that they sometimes only appear to be redundant. For example, a "real reality show" would be one that doesn't put people into some absurd situation, which could, in turn, be called "fake reality". StuRat 04:23, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Pleonasm or tautology MeltBanana 20:29, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! —Mitaphane _talk 21:09, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

A complete answer might be found at the Department of Redundancy Department at http://www.twosents.net/blog/archives/002723.php Edison 03:33, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I often think up those while in close proximity to the Sierra mountains. :-) StuRat 04:19, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Surely you mean the Sierra range. —Tamfang 06:51, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

See also Redundancy (language) and the various links from there.--Shantavira 07:45, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

September 22

What does Greensleeves mean?

We all know the old traditional song Greensleeves. But what does its title mean? Is it literally the sleeves of a shirt that are green? Or somebody's name? Or a place? Or is it Old English for "love pain" or something? What does it mean exactly as a word or words?--Sonjaaa 20:10, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Ahh it looks like it's a lady's name. Apparently her last name? What kind of name is that?--Sonjaaa 20:10, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Alas my loue, ye look a mess,

to wipe your nose off on your dress

it's quite disgusting, ye must confess

and that's why they call you "Greensleeves".

I don't think it is an actual name more an epithet based on the typical dress of a person. Maybe there was a woman who frequently wore green sleeves so instead of writing "Lady Anne is a right mardy cow" they thought "Greensleeves you are so discourteous" to be more poetic. From there greensleeves became proverbial for an inconstant lover in the same way as "black shirt" and "blue stocking" suggest different kinds of people. BTW that doggerel helps confirm my theory that the internet is the largest toilet door ever created. MeltBanana 21:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

From an excellent site, Online Etymology:""Greensleeves," ballad of an inconstant lady-love, is from 1580. Meaning of "a field, grassy place" was in O.E. Sense of "of tender age, youthful" is from 1412; hence "gullible" (1605)." at http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=w&p=7 But is it the girl who is gullible or the boy who gets "gulled?"Edison 21:24, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, dear. Not gulls again. :) DirkvdM 04:26, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

As I understand it, that name came from a time when such bright colors were considered inappropriate for a woman, thus she was a woman of questionable taste, at the very least, and quite possibly a prostitute. I lived in an apartment that had apparently been occupied by a prostitute prior to me, and had a hot pink room, a chartreuse room, etc., so I can relate to this phrase. StuRat 05:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

15 words from Portuguese to English

I posted this at Wiktionary, but no responses yet. :( I've checked Babelfish, Wiktionary, the Portuguese Wiktionary, and the Portuguese Wikipedia, but I still don't know the direct translation of about 20 words (bolded) from the Brazilian song Águas de Março. Could someone help? Hyenaste ^(tell) 22:33, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

É peroba do campo

A kind of hardwood tree. --Lambiam^Talk 00:09, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Caingá, candeia

Caingá: another kind of tree. Candeia is something like a lamp ("candle"). --Lambiam^Talk 00:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

É o Matita Pereira

Yet another kind of tree. --Lambiam^Talk 00:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Tombo da ribanceira (riverbank?)

I think it's more like a canyon, with steep sides. --Lambiam^Talk 00:19, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

É a viga (beam of light or of wood?), é o vão festa da cumeeira (the Portuguese area?)

Together it refers to a party you hold when, in building a house, the roof beam is in place. I guess vão has something to do with the (wooden) skeleton of the house, but I wouldn't even know the proper terminology in English. --Lambiam^Talk 00:22, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I never thought of putting it together as one line. If I am understanding you correctly festa da cumeeira refers to the party? That would mean the beam, the coming of the associated party, which makes perfect sense. Thanks a bunch for these so far! Hyenaste ^(tell) 00:29, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

É conversa, é ribeira das águas de março

(It's a conversation; it's the river of the waters of March?)

This doesn't make much sense; are you sure it's correct? As a poetic metaphor it is over the top. --Lambiam^Talk 00:27, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

É o fim da canseira,

É a mancha estradeira

Pedra de atiradeira

É um regato

É o estrepe

É um belo horizonte (the city?), é uma febre terçã

Did you realize that the article you linked to has an external link offering a translation? You can simply look up the words and phrases you don't know there. --Lambiam^Talk 00:31, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Ahahaha! I had literally been looking for weeks for the direct translation, but all I could find was pages and pages of the english version, but there my answer was under my nose the whole time. I would be humiliated if I weren't so delighted! Thanks, Lambiam; you rock three levels in this thread alone! Hyenaste ^(tell) 00:41, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

September 23

Please help me

Hi How are you? I am new one in this page and I feel happy that I have got alot of abundance of knowledge from this site. I need help. (EDUCATION IS THIRD EYE OF A MAN)this is topic I need some idea. please would you like to tell me some great points. It's very urgent now.

I aspire that you will not frustrate me. I am waiting for your reply Thankyou very much

I don't understand. What is your question? Do our articles on third eye or education help you? As a metaphor, your phrase makes little sense, as nobody has a third eye but many people are educated. Is this a quotation? If so, you need to find the context. If the third eye represents education, what do the other eyes represent? Also you say "a man", so which man is this referring to? If you just say "man" instead, this is not PC, so it is still a lousy metaphor IMO. If this is a reference to Ambedkar (since there is an important fortieth anniversary imminent), his motto was "educate, agitate, organize". He always put education first (not third).--Shantavira 07:36, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I can imagine it as some type of metaphor: "As our two eyes allow us to see the obvious, so the third eye of education allows us to see those things hidden from the other two." StuRat 08:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, but most of us receive most of our education through our two eyes and our two ears already; it's not as though education is additional to sight. So as a metaphor I don't think it works. Besides, "education" is normally output rather than input; "learning" would be more appropriate. "Learning is the third eye of Man." So where does that leave women? As an elderly Indian once said to a friend of mine on learning he was not married: "What is knowledge without college? What is life without a wife?" --Shantavira 11:51, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

If the sentence was reversed "Third Eye is the Education of Man", it'd make sense if "education" was interpreted in some broad sense... 惑乱 分からん 11:59, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

It seems obvious that the third eye here is the intellect...what we see (visually) normally needs intellectual interpretation. Thinking is the key to understanding and education helps the development of intellect.

Note that the usual meaning of "third eye" is a Hindu concept of a hidden "eye" that sees into the spiritual realm, as opposed to the two normal eyes, which only see into the physical realm. StuRat 23:12, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

ANSWERED -> Alternate Names

Could u please help me in giving alternate names for the word WARRIORS

Try a thesaurus, like the one at Merriam-Webster: [1]. StuRat 05:07, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't seem to have symonyms for it. Well, there's "soldiers", "militia", "fighters", "troopers", etc. -- the GREAT Gavini 06:53, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Sure it does. It provided a link to SOLDIER, which then listed these synonyms and related words:

Synonyms: fighter, legionary, legionnaire, man-at-arms, regular, serviceman

Related Words: servicewoman; cavalier, cuirassier, dragoon, trooper; dogface, doughboy, footman, foot soldier, infantryman; commando, marine, ranger; artilleryman, musketeer, rifleman; archer, lancer, spearman; Confederate, Continental, Federal, GI, guardsman, Rough Rider; guerilla, irregular, partisan; combatant, noncombatant; mercenary, soldier of fortune; veteran, war-horse; conscript, draftee, recruit; reservist

StuRat 09:29, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

...Amazons, berserkers, combatants, samurai, swordsmen, war-dogs...--Shantavira 07:10, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

grunts,groundpounders,G.I.s ,gyrenes,boots,gladiators,swordsmen,(hotclaws**== 15:29, 23 September 2006 (UTC))

Courtesy thesaurus.com: activist, adversary, advocate, aggressor, airman, ally, antagonist, aspirant, assailant, backer, battler, belligerent, boxer, brawler, bruiser, bully, cadet, candidate, cavalryman, central character, challenger, champ, champion, combatant, commando, competitor, conqueror, conscript, contender, contestant, contester, dark horse, defender, demonstrator, disputant, dogface, doughboy, doughfoot, draftee, duelist, endorser, enlisted man, entrant, exemplar, exponent, expounder, fighter, fighting man, GI, GI Joe, gladiator, Green Beret, grunt, guardian, guardsman, guerrilla, gunner, heavy, hero, heroine, hireling, hopeful, idol, infantryman, jouster, lead, lead character, leader, legionnaire, mainstay, man-at-arms, marine, master, medalist, member, merc, mercenary, militant, military man, musketeer, nonpareil, number one, numero uno, objector, officer, opponent, paladin, palooka, paratrooper, participant, partisan, patron, pilot, player, plug, prime move, principal, private, professional soldier, proponent, protector, protestor, pug, pugilist, punching bag, rank, recruit, rioter, rival, sapper, scout, scrapper, scrapper, selectee, serviceman, slave, slugger, soldier, standard-bearer, supporter, sympathizer, tanker, team member, titleholder, top dog, trooper, upholder, vanquisher, veteran, victor, vindicator, volunteer, warmonger, warrior, white knight, wildcat, winner.  --Lambiam^Talk 16:59, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

But check out the description in a dictionary for exact connotations, several of these examples (slave? victor? winner? rival?) actually seem quite dubious... 惑乱 分からん 18:15, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Golden Eagles? --Maxamegalon2000 18:13, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Citation needed

I added to an article that all consonants in English, as well as all IE languages, are pulmonic. Does anyone know of a resource which backs that up? The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 15:06, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

It wouldn't be a very good resource, because that statement's not true. Sindhi, an Indo-Iranian language, has a set of four glottalic ingressive consonants. --Ptcamn 16:23, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

And Armenian has ejective consonants (though the phonology section is a stub, and it doesn't say so). ColinFine 16:34, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Alright then, then is there a resource that says all English consonants are pulmonic? The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 17:23, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I guess any textbook on linguistics written in English would have it. The sixth edition of An Introduction to Language by Victoria Fromkin and Robert Rodman says that all English sounds are pulmonic eggresive on p. 223. I'm sure a good phonetics textbook (such as A Course on Phonetics) would say the same. --Kjoonlee 09:37, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Published by Harcourt Brace College Publishers in 1998. Their "editorial correspondence" bureau is at Forth Worth, TX. --Kjoonlee 09:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Comparing the richness of Spanish and English

I would like to know which language has more accepted words, English or Spanish. Also, if possible, i would like links to verify the information. 84.123.117.231 16:55, 23 September 2006 (UTC)Jerry

Ask Oxford. Rmhermen 17:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd guess English... 惑乱 分からん 18:18, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Considering the reason given by Oxford, 'messy' might be a better word than 'rich'. :) Having more than one word for one meaning doesn't make a language richer. Having different words for different nuances of that meaning would, however, make it richer. I'm not sure which is the case here. Having one word for different meanings (ie 'bathroom' in AE) is actually a pretty poor thing. Funny, btw, that Oxford gives being a lingua franca as the reason for adopting so many words. That sounds like nonsense. Indonesian is also a lingua franca and for that reason actually very simple. It is true, though, that English has adopted many words from other languages, especialy French. I haven't a clue why that is, though. French was the lingua franca a few centuries ago, so many languages adopted words from French (see, it actually works the other way around), but none as much as English, afaik. DirkvdM 19:21, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

It seems that Indonesian is a standardized dialect, English is a (natural language as well as a) Lingua Franca, not for any practical linguistic reasons, but because of the socio-economical advantages associated with it. 惑乱 分からん 20:26, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

English has thousands of French loanwords because of the Norman conquest of 1066. Other loanwords come from simple cultural contact. AEuSoes1 03:06, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

If they're loanwords, could the French demand them back?--Shantavira 07:48, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

They're too busy trying to give back the loanwords they've taken. AEuSoes1 08:08, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, first some quick reasons why there's not really a definitive answer to this question:

• Any answer to this kind of question relies on agreeing some assumptions about what constitutes a 'word' (on both a purely linguistic level -- do you count different inflected forms separately, for instance? -- and in terms of what archaic/obsolete terms you include).
• Languages are constantly changing and evolving, so even if it were possible to give an accurate count of the number of words in a language's vocabulary it wouldn't be accurate for very long.
• 'Richness' is a loaded concept. What one language accomplishes by having a large vocabulary, another might achieve with extensive inflectional morphology or even with highly variable word order.

But with those caveats in mind, yes, English has to a first-order approximation about twice as many words as Spanish. The reasons for this are largely historical: despite being a Germanic language English was altered much more by the influence of Latin than is usual; later, the British Empire then allowed English speakers to go around the world stealing people's countries and incidentally adopting a selection of their more interesting words. --ⁿɡ͡b Nick Boalch\^talk 08:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

(Incidentally, it's also worth noting that although, to pluck a random example from the air, Spanish doesn't have vocabulary to distinguish between a Chairman and a Chief Executive (they're both 'presidente'), that doesn't mean that Spanish-speakers don't understand the difference. Turning the same example on its head, Spanish can inflect to distinguish between a male Chairman/CEO and a female one: compare 'presidente' and 'presidenta'. English can't do that, but it doesn't mean that English speakers can't express the concept of 'male Chairman' as different from 'female Chairman'. --ⁿɡ͡b Nick Boalch\^talk 08:36, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Well just to pluck another "random" example from the air, English doesn't have vocabulary to distinguish between "saber" and "conocer" - not even between some of the most basic verbs in the language, "tener"/"haber" or "ser"/"estar". The roots of that difference are quite significant in my opinion. --RiseRover|^talk 06:53, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

"Know" is an interesting case, afaik, all other Germanic and Romance languages keep the distinction between "be aware of" and "be certain of". (I've never understood the difference between tener/haber and ser/estar completely...) 惑乱 分からん 11:47, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

The way I learned this, the English language's large vocabulary is partly due to overlap in Germanic and Romance vocabulary: end and finish, street and avenue, etc. These dual versions usually have slightly different connotations. The pattern is embedded so deeply that English has no concept of language purity. English speakers tend to be very welcoming of loanwords that add fresh nuance to the language. Durova 14:50, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

James D. Nicoll made the oft-quoted observation: "The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." — Catherine\^talk 01:29, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Japanese Question

I'm a professional translator from Japanese to English, but I can't find, on the internet or even from anyone that I know here in Japan (!), the meaning to a particular word. The word is バレ化。Can anyone tell me the meaning?CCLemon 17:18, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Can you give me some sort of context?  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  17:49, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

First guess is that it's to do with 画バレ. I don't pay attention to anime circles but I think that's what they call pages listing screen shots for (upcoming?) anime. Probably from ばれる so they're "revealing" all the images. バレ化 would then be a slangy way to nominize the act, i.e. あの映画、まだバレ化してない？ There's only like 15 hits on google for it so I doubt it's any more than a neologism used by 5 people.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  17:57, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Freshofftheufo-san, how do you pronounce 画バレ (gabare? kakubare?) and what does it mean? --Lambiam^Talk 10:17, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd say 90% chance it's gabare, literally meaning "image" "reveal".  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  15:12, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

'化" is used in verb 'to change', and the バレ is obviously 'ball' or 'bowl'. Beats me what it means, though. Wooty 03:12, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Bare does not mean "ball" or "bowl", which would both sound like bōru. Although I can't be sure of such an obscure word, it is most likely, as I said, the root of the verb ばれる.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  15:12, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Spenser Poem

Who lists to see, what euer nature, arte,

And heauen could doo, O Rome, thee let him see,

In case thy greatnes he can gesse in harte,

By that which but the picture is of thee.

Rome is no more: but if the shade of Rome

May of the bodie yeeld a seeming sight,

It's like a corse drawne forth out of the tombe

By Magicke skill out of eternall night:

The corpses of Rome in ashes is entombed,

And her great spirite reioyned to the spirite

Of this great masse, is in the same enwombed;

But her braue writings, which her famous merite

In spight of time, out of the dust doth reare,

Doo make her Idole through the world appeare.

This is a poem by Edmund Spenser - can anyone tell me what they make of lines three and four (particularly the phrase "by that which but the picture is of thee")? The poem is about the ruins of Rome, so I assume line three says that one could "guess in your heart" about the (former) greatness of Rome, but line 4 leaves me baffled. (The rest of it I get, I'm just including it for context.) 165.123.166.240 19:09, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

• Random thoughts: "By that which but the picture is of thee" -> "By that which is but the picture of thee" -> "By that which is but the pale shadow of thee" . Maybe. Notinasnaid 19:41, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
• Lines 1-2 express that a glimpse of Rome would illustrate all the greatness that nature, mankind's craft and heaven are capable of achieving. Lines 3-4 lament that the viewer will, however, be forced to guess at the magnitude of that greatness by extrapolating from the view of Rome's ruins, which is little more than a remembrance of its past glory. dpotter 00:10, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
• Random thought from the GREAT Gavini - isn't this homework? -- the GREAT Gavini 06:58, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

• This is not for homework questions =) doktorb _words^deeds 13:09, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

September 24

"peace be with you" in different languages

Greetings, I am wondering if you could help me writing the phrase "peace be with you" in the native script for the following languages. The "you" here is in singular.

I do hope this is an apropriate question if not please forgive me and thank you in advance. Please feel free to add as much.

Twin

Needed: Hindi, Nepalese, Bangla, Sinkhala, Chichewa, Kashmiri, Sanskrit language, Telugu, Urdū, Persian, Sinhala, pakistan. Scottish Gaelic, Bangalore, Samoan language, Laos, Hmong, Burmese, Malayalam, Canara Konkani Papa New Guinea, American Native language, Blackfoot, Commanche, Navajo,Slovak, Serbian, Bosnian, Ukraine.

"Pakistan" is not a language. There are quite a few languages spoken in Pakistan, see Languages of Pakistan. Same for Papua New Guinea, there are over 850 indigenous languages over there. I don't think your Christmas cards will be ready in time for this year. I'm not even sure these languages have a word for "peace". Native Americans also speak a large variety of languages, of which you listed a few; see Indigenous languages of the Americas. One question: Suppose someone says that in Malayalam this is കൂത്തിപ്പട്ടി പെണ്പട്ടി. How will you know that this is not actually an insult? --Lambiam^Talk 01:38, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

There is a level of trust involved, though most people will give correct answers. If you're looking for a batch translation request, I recommend you make a post at the following community: http://community.livejournal.com/linguaphiles/. They get a lot of requests like this, and though I'm not sure you'll be able to get answers for all of the Native American languages you listed, Persian and Indian languages are well represented and you should get quite a lot of feedback.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  15:08, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Dutch : "Vrede zij met u."

German :"Friede sei mit dir."~

Evilbu 19:11, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your recommendation.

Serbian, Bosnian, Croatian: "Mir s tobom!" or "Neka mir bude s tobom!". Duja 13:08, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I got for Croatian: "Mir s vama" is there a difference?

Many languages have a so-called T-V distinction, which means that for the second-person pronouns, or at least the singular, there are two forms: a "familiar" one and a "respectful" one. (These are not necessarily opposed concepts; there is just no way through the choice of pronoun to express the combinations familiarity+respect and distance+disrespect.) In English there used to be "thou" and "you", but "thou" fell in disuse. Evilbu above gave the "respectful" form for Dutch and the "familiar" form for German. --Lambiam^Talk 23:15, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

If the Serbo-Croatian languages have retained the same common PIE roots as the Romance languages, I would guess "Mir s tobom!" is familiar, and "Mir s vama" is respectful, right? 惑乱 分からん 11:36, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Russian Last Names

I am Russian, but I don't understand the way Russian last names work, and I couldn't find anything on it. Are there different ending for each name, one generic for sons and one for daughters, etc? If so, is there any reliable way to form or interpret last names? thanks so much! --Q of E 05:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

See Names in Russian Empire, Soviet Union and CIS countries. --Chris S. 05:39, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

September 25

words

Why isn't the word "scody" listed in any dictionary? I have heard it used for more than 50 years. As we all know, it means "yucky" or "crusty" or "disgusting."

"As we all know"? If that were true, it would be in the dictionary. I've certainly never heard the word before. However, if you say that's so grody fast enough.... TheMadBaron 00:57, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Apparently "grody" is Valspeak. I've never heard "scody" or "grody" used in the UK, but the British equivalent seems to be "grotty". (There used to be a cheap cafe near where I lived in London called El Grotto, but the final O had fallen off the sign. I wouldn't be surprised if that's where the word originally came from ;-) --Shantavira 09:36, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Where do you live? If it's Britain, I'm inclined to quote the movie Snatch: "Don't anybody speak English here? I thought it was invented in this country!" ;) 惑乱 分からん 11:44, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

According to legend, grotty was invented for A Hard Day's Night, explained as derived from grotesque. (George says it when a marketing type asks him for Youth's opinion on the product.) —Tamfang 06:09, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Could be a coincidence, but it also sounds akin to grotto. (Cold, moist, damp...) 惑乱 分からん 11:45, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I live in Washington, DC, and (of course), I'm only guessing about the spelling. It could be scody, or scodie, or scodey, or skody...but it has been in vernacular use for many years. Maybe it just hasn't made it into print...and therefore has not appeared in the 5 literary cases needed for the OED. :)

Slovenian language

Can you tell me what the names for "Grandmother" and "Grandpa" are in Slovenian? Please include the English pronunciation. Thank you very much. Lois66.194.118.10 15:28, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Grandmother is 'babica' (pronounced 'bobby-tsa'), Grandpa is 'dedek' (pronounced 'dedek' with the 'e' like in seven). Both words have the emphasis on the first syllable.---Sluzzelin 18:46, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Comma?

I have noticed some people will put a comma after In (date)....it does not seem correct and reads better without.

Here is an example:

In AD 70, Gareb was covered with gardens watered by springs.

In c. 1900, Egypt knew of the Canaanite city, and later in c. 1450 the city was under Egypt’s rule.

Are the commas really necsessary after the dates?

I would leave them in. There is usually a natural pause after dates in speech. -- the GREAT Gavini 17:42, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

They aren't necessary, but they aren't incorrect either. They're optional. --Ptcamn 18:15, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

There are cases where it's needed, like: "In 1900 4 out of 5 people lacked telephone access." StuRat 19:10, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

In such and such date is an introductory prepositional phrase. I like to use a comma after an introductory phrase of four or more words. —Wayward ^Talk 03:20, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

German for Joshua

What is the German name for Joshua?

The biblical character is called Josua in German Bible translations. Apart from that, there's no specific German form of the name - there are a small number of Germans called Josua, but the name is not widely established and a bit of an oddity (at a rough guess, the name is probably most common in rural catholic neighbourhoods where parents stick pretty close to the Bible when naming their children, but I don't have statistics to back up that statement - in any case, "most common" does not mean much since the name is rather rare). -- Ferkelparade π 18:10, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Since Joshua is supposedly a Jewish name, maybe its not surprising the Germans have no equivalent!--Light current 21:28, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Well there are plenty of Poles and Russians named Jozef, and those countries aren't known for being particularly philo-semitic historically. And a list of the most-popular German baby names shows Jonas, Hanna and Lea. So I don't know if you can attribue the lack of German Josephs to anti-Semitism. -- Mwalcoff 23:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

That's funny, I've always taken the English Joshua as the Hebrew for Yeshua, or the near English equivalent of the (Latin-American) Spanish "Jesus." There might be reasons beyond anti-semitism for frequency differences. 00:35, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Roughly, Jesus == Jeshua == ישוע Yeshua`, while Joshua = יהושע Yehoshua`. The two names Yeshua` and Yehoshua` are related, but not Identical. AnonMoos 03:36, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Military vehicles in US Army

What is the most common name in US Army for commonly used military vehicles, such as M113? I'm interested, how soldiers refer to it as usually. Thanks in advance.

Don't know but? as the talk page discusses it isn't Gavin. Talk:M113 Armored Personnel Carrier. Rmhermen 23:17, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

APC (short for Armoured personnel carrier) is probably the term you're looking for. --Canley 01:58, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

• Jeep? or hummer/humvee? (hotclaws**== 15:02, 27 September 2006 (UTC))

Yup, "APC" is what we called them when I rode in one.

Bad Word?

Is calling someone a "sheister" impolite or vulgar? I have heard that the word comes from Yiddish, or maybe German, and means "shitter" or "bull-shit artist"; e.g. "We just got conned by that sheister lawyer." Is this word to be avoided in polite company? Thank you.66.213.33.2 19:30, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Shyster is generally considered insulting, and may come from a German word meaning "Defecator." As commonly used in English, I don't believe it is vulgar, but one might want to consider the company in question. --LarryMac 19:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

(After Edit Conflict) It's usually spelled Shyster in English. It's Yiddish and usage varies. It is traditionally applied to Jewish shysters, as opposed to WASP or other ethnic con artists and ambulance chasers. Consequently, it has taken on some of the color of an anti-semitic epithet. On the other hand, sometimes it doesn't especially bother people. Still, I would advice you to use it guardedly unless you are familiar with the speaking patterns of your interlocutors. --Diderot 19:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

my name

where to find the meaning of my name and different variations of my name

If you pretend you are a baby again and type "baby names" into google you will find lots of sites with name details. Here is a resonable one I found http://www.thinkbabynames.com/ MeltBanana 21:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, most such sites don't cite sources... --Ptcamn 21:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

That's good, that is almost a Wiki-alliterative-mantra. How about:

Sadly such sites seldom cite sources.MeltBanana 21:58, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

September 26

capitalisation of 'trompe l'oeil'

If I use the term in a title, do I capitalise the L and the O? Ta Adambrowne666 00:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

At least, I don't think you capitalize the l... 惑乱 分からん 00:25, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks -- also, would it be right to spell the 'oe' in 'l'oeil' as a ligature (Œ)? Adambrowne666 00:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure. Seriously, my French knowledge is quite limited... 惑乱 分からん 01:12, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

See the article Trompe l'oeil which does not capitalise the L or O (capitalisation is virtually never used for titles in French). The article title does not use an "oe" ligature, but the introduction does: "Trompe-l'œil" so to be technically accurate, yes, you would use it. --Canley 01:55, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Adambrowne666 02:42, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

In Thailand, following the recent coup d'état, there is an organization called the 19 September Network against Coup d'Etat, which implies, if anything, that even as an English proper noun, you wouldn't capitalize the "l", but you would the "o".  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  05:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, makes sense - in English, we don't capitalise 'the' and 'a' in a title either - thanks againAdambrowne666 06:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

What grammatical voice is this?

Is anyone familiar with the phenomenon where a transitive verb, in certain contexts (often informally), becomes a passive verb? For example:

• John doesn't scare easily for John isn't easily scared
• The wood won't cut for The wood cannot be cut

Is this the middle voice or something else? Thanks! Bhumiya (said/done) 01:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Middle is right. Also mediopassive. --Ptcamn 02:25, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Semantically middle, morphologically active (i.e. "scare" and "cut" with intransitive meanings). Petrouchka 11:28, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

On the 3rd inst - what does this mean?

When I started working life after completing secretarial college, some 25 years ago I remember a boss who would dictate a sentence commencing . . .

On the third inst

I think it may have referred to the current month. I know there are other words that refer to the previous month and the next month. Does anyone know what they are?

Inst. means the current month.--Light current 02:27, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Inst. is short for instant and means the current month. Ult. = ultimo is the previous month. I have been looking for the corresponding word for "next month" for years and have not yet discovered it. —Blotwell 03:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

"Inst." is short for instante mense, meaning "this month". "Ult." is short for ultimo mense, meaning "last month". And "next month" was "prox.", short for proximo mense. All Latin phrases, and very much outdated now. JackofOz 03:31, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Though you have to admit, they sound pretty cool. "I'll be going to a Nine Inch Nails concert proximo mense."  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  05:46, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Even better if you translate Nine Inch Nails into Latin. Anybody? JackofOz 06:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I think you could probably do a Latin translation akin to "I will be going to the popular musical group named "Nine Inch Nails"' concert proximo mense or similar. (Inches would probably be better than Centimeters for Latin, I'd guess...) 惑乱 分からん 10:56, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, nine inches would be a half palmus.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  13:51, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Really? Maybe, palmus medius? 惑乱 分からん 16:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Clavi nonunciales? Adam Bishop 22:40, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Hardcore

I want to describe someone as "hardcore" (in a good sense) but I lack the words to adequately quantify their "hardcoreness". I want to say something like "You're so hardcore I told me mom"... can anyone help me find a stronger way to describe my feelings? (in an email)  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  05:43, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

You're so hardcore you throw stones at windows? :) Rentwa 18:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by hardcore. It has a number of meanings, but the only "good sense" in my Oxford is "uncompromising". Is that what you want to say? The word can of course be misconstrued, as it is more usually assciated with pornography.--Shantavira 19:02, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

You're so hardcore that you don't cry: not because you can't, but because the tears are afraid to come out. Just use a Chuck Norrisesque line. --AstoVidatu 22:36, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

To a person who likes hardcore, or wants to be hardcor,e, "you're hardcore" is a supreme compliment. It doesn't have any complimentary meaning, of course. Still can't seem to fully express what I'm feeling...  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  05:19, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

'United' in German

United States in German is Vereinigte Staaten, whereas United Nations is Vereinte Nationen. Could someone please explain the difference between vereinigte and vereinte. Many thanks. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 07:22, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

The two participles are close to synonymous. They can both mean united. In certain contexts there is a slight difference in meaning. 'Sich vereinigen' can refer to an alliance or coalescence with one or several parties. 'Sich vereinen' may refer to a looser, less formal kind of union. Often it's merely a matter of convention. For instance, 'mit vereinten Kräften' is a phrase meaning 'with a combined effort' or 'with united forces', while 'mit vereinigten Kräften' is not a common phrase at all. This is all off the top of my head, perhaps someone with access to a Spezialduden or so can give a more educated answer. ---Sluzzelin 08:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps another reason is that the use of these words has changed over time? The Vereinigte Staaten are much older than the Vereinte Nationen, after all. —da Pete (ばか) 13:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, I can witness the same phenomenon in my native Serbo-Croatian—only the USA has Sjedinjene Američke Države while there are Ujedinjene Nacije, Ujedinjeni Arapski Emirati. "Sjedinjen" means roughly "conjoined", and USA is the only context where it is used for a political entity (I'd expect to find it mostly in recipes), and is thus "idiomatic". Maybe it's a Russism (Соединённые), dunno. Duja 14:40, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, in German the United Nations seem to be the exception - several countries and entities follow the USA's example and use 'vereinigte' in their name. Examples: 'Die Vereinigten Arabischen Emirate' (the United Arab Emirates), 'das Vereinigte Königreich' (correct translation of the United Kingdom which, unlike in English, is hardly ever used in German, where the UK is either referred to as 'UK', 'Grossbrittannien' or even 'England'), 'Die Vereinigte Niederlande' also exists, referring to the historical Dutch Republic of seven provinces. Then there was the 'Vereinigte Stahlwerke AG', a German steel monopolist which helped arm Germany in the 1930s. Besides the UN (Vereinte Nationen), I can't think of many entities using the word 'Vereinte' in their title. I'm sure they exist, but google only gave me sci-fi entities ('Die Vereinten Mächte'/The United Powers - 'Die Vereinten Welten'/The United Worlds) or unspecific references which weren't titular. Maybe it has to do with formality and titularity. ---Sluzzelin 17:31, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Could it have to do with the strength of the "union"? Even federal nation-states such as the United States have a single central government and act as "one," at least when it comes to foreign affairs. The United States, the United Kingdom, and, to a lesser degree, the United Arab Emirates are united as one in terms of government, monetary policy, and so on. However, the United Nations is united as many. I suspect that the choice of "vereinte" might have reflected the status of the UN as a "Verein" of nations. Similarly, I think it might be more apt to refer to the EU as "Vereintes Europa" than as "Vereinigtes Europa". Does this sound right to a native speaker? I think Sluzzelin may have been onto something when he/she suggested that "vereinen" meant more "combine" than "merge or unite". Marco polo 18:28, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that "vereinte" might be closer in connotation to unified than to united. Bhumiya (said/done) 00:57, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I believe Marco and Bhumiya have hit the Nagel on the Kopf.---Sluzzelin 05:35, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

French : que les gens font-ils , incorrect? but why?

Hello,

I'm a little ashamed I still don't know this.. but :

I am struggling with inversion in French:

"Viennent-ils?" This is a simple yes or no question with inversion.

"Les garçons viennent-ils" This is yes/no inversion with more than just a personal pronoun.

"Pourquoi les garçons viennent-ils?" This is a question-word question with inversion and with more than just a personal pronoun.

But why is it "Que font les hommes?" and not "Que les hommes font-ils?"

1. It is true, right??? That the first is correct, the second isn't??

2. Why? Is this an exceptional case? Please don't tell me languages have exceptions (I'm aware of that) but I'd like to know what kind of exception it is. Does it only apply here, or are there a few other cases? Is there some sort of easy rule implying this?

Please be careful with spelling because I am afraid a random page in French is not necessarily written correctly(I even found stuff like "Ils ont achetés")

Thanks! Evilbu 18:15, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't think of any real reason off the top of my head, but I suspect the latter just looks very awkward and the former is used for simplicity's sake. It's sorta like "what do the men?" vs "what the men do they?" or something. -- the GREAT Gavini 18:29, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

My French is a bit weak, but these forms are all rather formal, I believe. I think that the usual way of forming questions in French is to begin with "Est-ce que", followed by a statement of the fact whose truth one wants to ascertain, e.g. "Est-ce que les garçons viennent?" or "Les garçons, est-ce qu'ils viennent?" Or, if you are asking about an object, begin with "Qu'est-ce que", e.g. "Qu'est-ce que les hommes font?" or "Les hommes, qu'est-ce qu'ils font?" Marco polo 18:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

You can say: "Les hommes, que font-ils?", like you can say: "Les garçons, d’où viennent-ils?" I don't know the rule that permits you to put "pourquois" in front but not "que" and "d’où", but it seems that "pourquois" is the exception. --Lambiam^Talk 21:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I only learned French for two semesters at Swedish municipal adult education, so I don't know how fit I am to answer this, but I'd say "font-ils" is akin to "do they do?", and just as "What men do they do?" looks awkward in English, "Que les hommes font-ils?" looks awkward in French. Both "Les garçons viennent-ils" and "Pourquoi les garçons viennent-ils?" looks strange to me... Also, it helped me to interpret "Est-ce que" literally as an old form for "Is it that" and "Qu'est-ce que" as an old form for "What is it that"... Could just be me, though, and I haven't learned much French since then... 惑乱 分からん 23:34, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I am a native speaker and I tried all the question markers like Pourquoi, D'où, Quand, Comment, Qui, Avec qui, Où, etc. all with a number of verbs.

It is clear that "Que" always sounds weird in these structures. "D'où ces gens viennent-ils ?" "Quand les prisonniers mangent-ils ?" "Avec qui Marie vient-elle ?": always fine. All these pronouns cannot be the object of the verb, maybe that is related. "Que les filles voient-elles ?" is weird because it seems you should not have a double subject if the object is before the verb, instead of being after it. But "Comment les filles voient-elles les garcons ?" is not weird, just formal. The object is after the verb. But is it Ok to say "Qui les garcons aiment-ils ?", where the object is before the verb. "Que les garcons aiment-ils ?" does not work at all, although just one letter is different. So it seems to me that "Que" is the exception - always weird with a double subject, unlike the other interrogative pronouns, which just cause the sentence to be formal. Why is "Que" the exception? Still couldn't think of anything.

And to answer Wakuran "Pourquoi les garcons viennent-ils ?" is not strange, just a bit formal. Lgriot 13:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, it's good to make a distinction between "formal but correct" and "just wrong". So what would you do then "Les filles, pourquoi viennent-elles?" Is that something you would say?Evilbu 15:59, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

September 27

Problem with passive voice

How can I make the sentence: "In life, people and things are not always the way they appear to be at first glance" without it being passive? [unsigned]

I might be mistaken, but I don't see any passive voice in it as it is now. 04:01, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind, thank you for your answer but I figured it out on my own. And yes, there is passive voice in it. "Are" and "to be" both denote the passive voice.

In passive voice, the verb is compound, meaning that it includes a form of "to be". "The mouse was eaten by the cat" is a passive sentence. The active version would be "The cat ate the mouse". The mere presence of the words "to be" in a sentence does not make the sentence passive. Your sentence is not passive. JackofOz 05:40, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Even the presence of a compound verb doesn't necessarily make a sentence passive. "The cat was eating the mouse" is still active, because the subject is the thing doing the action. The hallmark of a passive sentence is that the subject is the thing that the action is being done to. The subject of your sentence is "people and things". Nothing is being done to them. JackofOz 05:47, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

There are no passives in your sentence. I think you're getting mixed up between intransitive and passive. "People and things are ..." is active, but intransitive; so is "things appear to be ..." Petrouchka 11:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

See for this our article English passive voice.  --Lambiam^Talk 08:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Use of the word 'cure'

What is the correct use of the word cure? Googling lets me see lots of examples of finding or having a cure 'against' this or that ... 'cure against bird flue', 'cure against child labor', 'cure against Parkinson's'. But I think that it only sounds correct to have a cure for something. A cure for cancer, a cure for my troubles ... etc.

Thanks if you can enlighten.

As far as I know,"cure against" is wrong but that doesn't stop people from using it *sigh*Perhaps they've mixed it up with "prophylactic against"?(hotclaws**== 15:10, 27 September 2006 (UTC))

"Cure against" is definitely wrong. "Defence against" is OK. Unfortunately Googling is not a useful way to check the vaildity of expressions like this.--Shantavira 17:36, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for two replies. Can anyone help with a little more substantive or grammatical explanation of exactly what is wrong with the phrasing 'cure against' ... so that I can convincingly cure the problem that lead to the dispute and original question. Thanks again whoever contributes...

German rhyme for children

My grandmother was born in Germany in 1926. She relocated to the US after WWII. My question is about a little rhyme (sort of) in German that she will use when cleaning a small child's face and hands. I can't spell it the way a German would, but I'll do so in English words and see if somebody can translate (or explain) it for me. Thanks.

"Schaltzie, Schmaltzie, Budapecture, Soydrechture" Danthemankhan 15:55, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

The second word is almost certainly a diminuitive of Schmalz, "lard". The first word could be from Schatz, "darling". The third looks like Budapest (!), but Budapester is/was apparently a kind of men's shoe. Haven't got a clue about the last one though. -- the GREAT Gavini 16:26, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Do you know where in Germany your grandmother grew up? I tried reading it out loud, but the last word does not ound like anything I would recognize. If I knew what dialect your grandmother was speaking, reading it out while trying to emulate that dialect would probably change the way the words sound quite a bit, maybe then I could guess what the last word might be -- Ferkelparade π 17:27, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

On seond thought, if your grandmother is Swabian (I'm too), it might be "Budapeschter, d'Säu trecht er" (Guy from Budapest, he's carrying the pigs). That doesn't make much sense, but from what I remember from my own childhood, most nursery rhymes are more or less randomly stringed together words :P -- Ferkelparade π 17:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I have never heard anything like it, and couldn't find it in German children's rhyme collections either. Here's a very wild guess: "Schatzi, Schmatzi, Puderbäckchen, Säudreckchen". The translation would be something like: "Darling, kiss-kiss, powdered little cheeks, pig's little dirt". Budapecture might also be Butterbäckchen which would mean 'little butter cheeks'. In which part of Germany did your Grandmother grow up? As already pointed out by Ferkelparade, the local dialect might be helpful. It could be a variety of the word 'Pausbäckchen', meaning chubby little cheeks.---Sluzzelin 18:33, 27 September 2006 (UTC)