Talk:Viswanathan Anand

"one of the greatest" etc etc

In this instance I agree with the IP. "One of only nine players in history to surpass a rating of 2800" is enough to convey that he is one of the world's leading players, no need to use subjective or hyperbolic words like "greatest", and "highest rated of all time" doesn't add any new information. MaxBrowne (talk) 07:38, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, but using the terms "one of only 9 players to be rated above 2800" will just become weaker over time, as rating inflation and the younger generation of players (like Giri, and Liren) inevitably topple that mark. A statement that better stands the test of time would be: "The fourth player to exceed the 2800 rating" (If I am not mistaken, the order is Kasparov, Kramnik, Topalov, Anand, Carlsen, Aronian, Caruana, Grischuk, Nakamura). You won't need to constantly update this statement, and it will properly convey his role in history as one of the strongest players of all time. Qed (talk) 03:53, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

That works for me, I'll make the change. Can bring the discussion back here if it gets reverted. MaxBrowne (talk) 11:00, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

• I'd agree with that too, I only changed it to "highest rated" to get rid of the word "greatest" but as you say the next sentence does make it somewhat redundant. Black Kite (talk) 09:15, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
• No disagreement here as I had also done the change from greatest to "top ranked" for similar reasons and to avoid the original back and forth. I'd also asked the IP/Vignesh9891 to instead go and discuss this and the Morphy changes at WT:WikiProject Chess rather than continue reverting here and at Morphy but that doesn't seem to have happened. —SpacemanSpiff 12:40, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
• There is no "consensus" here, only your biased opinion. I already provided proper citation (from Vldamir Kramnik no less) showing other players referring to Anand as one of the best ever chess players. In fact, any knowledgable chess fan knows as fact that Anand is one of the most formidable champions ever. Other "best ever" chess players apparently don't need a citation to be acknowledged as "one of the greats" but Vishy does? Can you provide any citations to the contrary? If not, then stop changing my edits. You seem not to know how wiki works. When citations are provided, you have to provide evidence to the contrary before changing them. Please leave it alone, unless I'll report this handle to the wikipedia admins and have it banned for life, together with your IP. Your personal issues with Anand need to be taking elsewhere. Exxcalibur808 (talk) 02:43, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Sigh, you continue to add this against the consensus here (MaxBrowne, Black Kite, and I have commented here, you seem to think that your opinion counters all that), your cites such as the one to youngbites is clearly subpar. As for the rest of your tirade, I think you need to understand how Wikipedia works before you go down that road. —SpacemanSpiff 13:50, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

It's not enough to say that on the basis of one cite that Anand is one of the the greatest. It's far too bold a claim, especially in the lead, without sufficient evidence to justify it. I agree that he could be one of the greatest but one person's opinion isn't enough, whoever it is. The more modest wording covers perfectly well. There are far bigger problems with the article than this sentence. Jkmaskell (talk) 14:18, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

• I've already provided adequate citations from Vladmir Kramnik himself who puts Anand in his top 10 greatest players ever and a talent even on par with Kasparov himself. Kramnik will surely know this, since he faced both players hundreds of times in his career. What exactly is wrong with the citations provided? Isn't that what the point of providing citations are? I'm not sure how this is a bold claim whatsoever, considering Anand's career. Any knowledgeable will seriously struggle to name 10 more accomplished chess players in history (and some of the wiki members that are constantly changing my edits don't seem to be chess fans at all, but seem more to be cricket fans more than anything). His achievements in chess are unbelievable. While not on par with the likes of Kasparov, Fischer, Capablanca or Alekhine, Anand is certainly in that 2nd category of world champions with Spassky ,Petrosian et al who are obviously all time greats. Still, are there any citations suggesting Anand is NOT an all time great, or do I need to provide some more? Exxcalibur808 (talk) 21:44, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
• Also, there are other chess players who have the "one of the greatest ever" tags in their wiki page and apparently don't need citations to justify it, so why Anand? The only reason why this is even an issue for me is because this page is very mediocre for a player of Anand's status and I come only with good intentions to make it better. So please, consider my edits, as a FIDE titled player myself and a chess player for more than 20 years. That wasn't the only edit I made, by the way. I also added a more detailed head to head record vs Anand's other peers, mostly those of his own generation and all from the same site, chessgames.com. So, let's talk as chess fans, if there are any here. Why is five time world champion, Anand not one of the best ever players? And why is ex world champion Vladmir Kramnik's citation on the matter invalid. Thanks. For now, I'll revert it back to the edits I made. And I'll also like real wikipedia admins to get involved. This can be easily be settled as gentlemen. Thank you. Exxcalibur808 (talk) 21:44, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Given what Anand has achieved, terms such as "greatest" shouldn't be necessary. Wikipedia policies consider them "peacock" terms, advising that contributors instead allow the facts to speak for themselves. An argument could be made to use the term, providing enough reliable sources are cited. However, two quotes from Kramnik and one from Grischuk is not sufficient to depart from Wikipedia guidelines. I sympathise but that line shouldn't be there at present. Jkmaskell (talk) 21:15, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Greetings. I've added YET another citation from none other than the FIDE president, Kirsan Ilyumzhinov, himself an ex-player. There can be no higher authority in the chess world than that. Again, where are the citations that argue to the contrary? I'm not just stating my opinion, but providing quotes from former world champions, world class players and even the FIDE president. You might suggest that "one of the greatest" is not necessary, but I can argue it is. It is a proper introduction to the article proper, and it's an honor afforded to other great chess giants, so why not Anand? Notice, this is not the only change I made to the article. I also added various head to head records of other great players (mostly from his generation) that Anand has faced, all from the same source as the previous head to heads, chessgames.com. This is getting swept aside together with the other edit. Thank you. Exxcalibur808 (talk) 23:15, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm trying to help make it work. I don't think you can retain the line in the lead. However, putting the evidence in the "Assessment" section could work as it is part of the main body. Ilyumzhinov's quote we'll use for the time being but far stronger sources exist, published sources in particular (books, magazines, etc etc) which can replace it. The lead section shouldn't really need many cites at all as it summarises what follows. Jkmaskell (talk) 21:43, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Why not use the Ilyumzhinov citation in the summary and delete the other citations then? Also, the way it is edited in the assessment section seems pretty poorly written. I'm still amazed as to why a perfectly legitimate quote can not be used in the opening summary as a segway to the main article. Exxcalibur808 (talk) 23:25, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Ilyumzhinov isn't really an authority on chess, certainly not good enough to back the claim. He said that in a press conference with Anand. The term "greatest" is an example of puffery (see WP:PEACOCK) and should be avoided. As for the edit in Assessment, that was me rushing it to be fair. Jkmaskell (talk) 22:09, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Neither are you an authority, with all due respect. Since the citations of the FIDE president and an ex world champion (Kramnik) is of no authority to you. There are several other citations, but since you have no little time for the evidence, even if God said it, I won't bore you with it. Also, you say the term "greatest" (actually, it's one of the greatest), is puffery. Well, um, actually no it isn't. I know full well what puffery is and this is not. There are several, un-sourced articles of other chess players were the phrase, "one of the greatest" is used with no problems. What doesn't sit well with me is the fact; You are a fellow wiki user. Your opinion on an issue has no more validation or supremacy over that of another user. You're not arguing with facts or citations but with feelings and opinions. Since you've yet to provide a citation to the contrary, I will revert it back to what it was. And you can keep on reverting back if you please, but I've already notified an admin and the admin will get sort this out tomorrow, hopefully. All in all, wiki is a poorer place when some users think their feelings and opinions on a matter apparently trump sources from others with the highest form of credibility and prestige in a certain field. Exxcalibur808 (talk) 23:53, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

This has been reported to Administrators formally. I suggest we leave both the article and talk page until this has been resolved. It didn't need to come to this and I am very disappointed. Jkmaskell (talk) 07:41, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

This is an incredible waste of time, first from a detractor and now this. Sigh. Eitherways, I think there's consensus that this doesn't belong here, so unless there's some compelling evidence introduced that this should be here, we ought to remove it. —SpacemanSpiff 08:14, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

I'd have taken Jkmaskell's advice and left the article alone until an admin addresses this. We need to avoid the perception that we're edit warring ourselves. MaxBrowne (talk) 09:13, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Page protected

I have temporarily edit protected this article untill this edit warring issue is resolved. To edit, please see WP:PER. Any admin can shorten or lift this PP at their discretion. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:56, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

How are you sir Mahidul Islam Al Mahdi (talk) 16:59, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

IP from Chennai

"One of the best of all time" is not the same as saying "the greatest of all time", an easy distinction to make for any competent English speaker. The phrasing is actually quite mild considering Anand's achievements. Ample evidence to justify the statement is provided within the body of the article. The persistent edit warring by this IP is becoming a real pest. MaxBrowne (talk) 03:47, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, the ip is Vignesh9891 who also wants to reframe Morphy's page per the same POV (see note to that effect on my talk page). I forget who the last admin who handled this earlier was, I know I came in and got sucked into it as did Black Kite, but this is getting to be an incredible waste of time. —SpacemanSpiff 03:59, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Hi, Kasparov and Fischer are considered to be the greatest of all time. Capablanca, Alekhine who are slightly less than the former will be considered "one of the best players of all time". But anand, Topalov, Kramnik are players who are really good.

But terming them as one of the best of all time is not proper to say atleast. Since they have lots and lots to achieve to get that trade mark.

@MaxBrowne: Sorry if i had annoyed you. I just felt that there should not be any dramatizing comments in any of wiki's page. Since, this is the information that people are going through and should not be guided wrongly is what my concern is and will be — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vignesh9891 (talk • contribs) 04:17, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

I've heard a number of top players call Anand one of the all-time greats. A second's googling produces Nakamura saying "Vishy's a really strong player, probably the second-greatest player in history". In the reddit discussion someone says "Vishy is absolutely a top tier all time great." The person disagreeing with him responds "I don't think anyone would say that Anand isn't an all time great".. So I'm not sure how you can be unquestionably an all-time great but yet not one of the best players of all times. Saying only Capa and Alekhine are in the 'one of the best players of all time' category is a bit silly. Ok, people will vary in how many fit in that category. Capa and Alekhine are people I've heard claimed to be the greatest ever. I think a person who could write "But terming them as one of the best of all time is not proper to say atleast." should be more careful and modest about the likely meaning of fairly vague English expressions than they have been. Saying Anand and Kramnik aren't all-time greats but just "really good" is just silly. Anyway, I'll leave the last words to Kramnik: "I always considered him [i.e. Vishy] to be a colossal talent, one of the greatest in the whole history of chess". 110.20.157.59 (talk) 09:08, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

I am looking for a better word

to use in the phrase, "making him the first sportsperson to receive the award." because, is a chess player really considered to be a "sportsperson?" I am thinking not, but am having a difficult time coming up with a better word so am asking you to propose, or even interject, one. "click" Your move. Einar Carptrash (talk) 21:54, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Given we have "eSports", I'm pretty relaxed about the use of the term "sportsperson" including chess players User:Carptrash, though I do see your point. in fact, at the elite level, it almost is a sport. Jkmaskell (talk) 22:13, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Relaxed is good, good enough for me. I just wanted at least one other person to think about it. Carptrash (talk) 22:18, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

, Well, he did win the "Sportstar Millennium Award in 1998, from India's premier sports magazine for being the sportsperson of the millennium." if that means anything. Professional chess players are definitely working in the field of sport. Giving all they have to win the game like any football player, and often undergoing more grueling matches and tournaments, 7 hours a day most days for weeks. Or there's blitz/bullet chess, like sprinting with your mind.. It depends what you mean "considered", but by a lot of people in the chess world, maybe most, yes they are considered sportsmen and sportswomen. (Can't bring myself to type 'sportspeople') 110.20.157.59 (talk) 08:55, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

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