Talk:Skanderbeg

The article is not concentrated on where it should

The article in itself is a mess. This is partly a result of aim to include as much stuff as it can be found online. The lede is an example of WP:Undue where the weight is given only to some facts of Skanderbeg's life while information about some important elements of his life such as his anti-Ottoman rebellion is very limited or as in the case of his importance to the contemporary Albanians the information in the lede is inexistent. The Name sections has stuff which is too extensive, there is stuff on Skanderbeg's name in several documents and languages. The articles of other similar figures such as Alexander the Great, Napoleon and so on do no not concentrate in a such way to the names in different languages and eras. The editors have not forgotten to add that his surname was written somewhere in one or more documents (the article does not specify where, just the year that is 1408) Castriothi, a thing that may have been a result of writer's mistake. The Rebellion against the Ottomans section is too long if we keep in mind there is a much shorter article for the issue. In the end, there are four sections dedicated to the post-Skanderbeg era (There are three dedicated to his lifetime). Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:23, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

• Your proposal about the lede would lead to further Albanization of Sk, the way it was done in Albanian textbooks to create the myth of Sk. This article is not about that mythical Sk. This article is about real historical Sk, or at least it should be. For the most of his life, Sk was loyally serving Ottoman sultan. Even achieving one of the highest ranks in the Ottoman administration, the rank of sanjakbey. Insisting on his anti-Muslim struggle and neglecting his pro-Muslim pre-1443 life, would be a violation of undue. The same goes for text about the primary sources and its language.
• You are right about the length of the rebellion section. There was a consensus reached a long time ago that the Rebellion section is indeed too long and should be trimmed. The same goes for the section about Sk in literature and arts. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

The second point is OK as we both agree. I don't know where the "Albanization" of Skanderbeg came from because he was an Albanian and always signed himself as Lord of Albania. The "real" Skanderbeg is best known for his anti-Ottoman rebellion. Do you disagree with me? The body of article is concentrated on his anti-Ottoman rebellion and its legacy, the same thing should do the lede because it is the part of article that summarizes what the body says. The sources of the extensive stuff on Skanderbeg's name in various languages and eras should be placed at further reading section, the article is too long and this was the main reason why article failed to pass two GA nominations. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:34, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

This article is biography article about Skanderbeg. There is another article about his rebellion against Ottomans, so there is no need to give last 20 years of his life undue weight. I think I gave a fairly clear reason for my position and I don't really have much to add to that now. You are of course free to disagree, but I don't think you should expect everybody to be now somehow obliged to keep discussing this with you for as long as you are dissatisfied with it.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:06, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Antidiskriminator, Albanian authorities have not "Albanised" Skanderbeg, they secularised him under the communist regime and misused his legacy by creating a myth to attack Islam and promote Turkophobia and Islamophobia in Albania. Its why Skannderbeg today in Albania resembles something that people in Serbia or Greece are more attuned too regarding their nationalism (the Ottomans were "oppressors" thing ignoring other facets of the period) and the whole Turkophobic and Islamophic outlooks they now have. Looks like i am going to have do some future edits to these articles to clarify things.Resnjari (talk) 07:24, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

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Skenderbeg is not Albanian !

Dont put false things on wikipedia you cant hide thing that are true, He is Serbian, He used to be a Lord of Albania but it was a part of serbia, just look to flag of Nemanjici, they have the same flag as flag of Skenderbeg, just different collors, and also montenegro flag (from that time) is also the same. Albanian country is made beetwen second balkan war and end of 1st world war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.216.195.251 (talk) 22:42, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Skanderbegs ethnicity is not really in doubt. All reliable historians, documents refer to him as being an "Albanian" from the Kruja region (which never had any noticeable Serb presence unlike Skadar). Contemporary Ottoman, Venetian, and many other Western sources refer to him as Albanian. Some Serbian scholars dispute this but Wikipedia is not about fulfilling Albanian or Serbian Nationalist fantasies. —— (talk) 20:16, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Serious sources calling him "Albanian", have previously made clear the meaning of the term. Oliver Schmitt explained that "Albanian" meaned: a) a resident of the the geographical area of Albania, independently of language/religion/ethnicity. b) A speaker of Albanian language, independently of area of origin, religion, ethnicity and c) people of the rural areas and the mountains (comparable to the modern meaning of "Vlachos" in Greek). Citation available upon request. Also, albanologist Konstantinos Giakoumis, in some cases treats the term "Albanians" as geographical identifier: Self identifications by Himarriots, 16th to 19th centuries. pp 225, 1st line, 226, 2nd from the end line. Further, people have not only father, but a mother too.--Skylax30 (talk) 20:25, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

a) apart from the reference of Himariots having fought in Skanderbegs' wars (which is the only thing relevant to this wiki page if an addition is made), what is the point with the rest of Giakoumis ? That whole journal article is about Himara (the issues you refer to are not only discussed on page 225 but the whole article) not Skanderbeg. b) Your interpretation (or citation) of Schmitt still notes that the term Albanian is used for an Albanian speaking person and also for someone from the area of Albania. Scholars have noted this for decades. Such things have also been noted in the article Names of the Albanians and Albania.Resnjari (talk) 21:12, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

It was just a comment on the creation of identities for the past. Giakoumis explains that Albania was also called Macedonia, and we are still looking for a source that Sk. was speaking Albanian as "mother" tongue.--Skylax30 (talk) 07:01, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

I read in full what Giakoumis wrote. His journal article is about Himara, and how they have been noted/cited in various sources over the centuries and also in their own words. Its an scholarly overview of that data. Like i said, why is Giakoumis (apart from the bit that Himariots fought with Skanderbeg) relevant to this article? You are welcome to make an addition on Himariots and Skanderbeg, as per Giakoumis (Pappas also mentions the same thing as well) that's fine.Resnjari (talk) 13:39, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

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Serbian origin theory.

Why were my edits removed? I just don't understand, you just remove it without any reason. It also had sources AND the same sentences are on this page and this. If that many sources are not enough, I will give even more. MilosHaran (talk) 18:29, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Like much of nobility in the Middle Ages, he had mixed roots. His mother was very likely from a Slavic background -- although what specifically that was could probably debated between Serbian, Macedonian and Bulgarian (many of the Slavs even in Kosovo could be called "Bulgarian" in the time period given considerable prior Bulgarian rule). Of course for Balkan nationalists this means they get to claim the national heroes of neighboring (and sometimes hostile) nations as their "own". Obviously this is ridiculous, and this very tribal conception of national identity is one reason why Balkan disputes are the laughingstock of the rest of Europe. Nevertheless, on Wikipedia we have to deal with this bullshit from time to time -- witness also the longstanding Croatian nationalist campaign to emphasize how Nikola Tesla was born in Croatia-- now enshrined in the Hall of Lame, not to mention Milos Obilic (or should I say "Millosh Kopilli" as some Kosovar Albanians wishfully think). Do we need a coatrack section about this on this page? No, we don't.--Calthinus (talk) 12:44, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support inclusion of text about Skanderbeg's Serb origin - Per Wikipedia:Verifiability and Calthinus. I agree with Calthinus that it is wrong to present this person as ethnically 100% Albanian. The proposed text about his Serb origin deserves place in this article having in mind that there is a scientific consensus that Skanderbeg was of Serb origin trough his father (diff). Majority of contemporary reliable sources emphasize that Skanderbeg was Serb also trough his mother. I agree with what Calthinus wrote about Croatian and Albanian nationalisms and how they get to .... claim the national heroes of neighboring .... nations as their "own".. I also agree with Calthinus that text about Skanderbeg's Serb origin do not deserve a whole section. A couple of short proposed paragraphs can be placed in section about Skanderbeg's early life. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:20, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Cute. However, there is no such "scientific consensus" and for inclusion such paragraphs will need to be amended to adhere to WP:NPOV on this issue, which there is not a consensus about (on Wikipedia or in scholarship). --Calthinus (talk) 17:42, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

I fully agree with Antidiskriminator. Jingiby (talk) 17:34, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Jingiby I take this to mean you are also asserting there is a "scientific consensus that Skanderbeg was of Serb origin through his father"? --Calthinus (talk) 17:42, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

There are several theories on Skanderbeg's origin, that he had some Serbian, Greek, Macedonian etc origins. This is a similar case to those of many national heroes, and is closely linked with nationalism. A possible Serbian origin of his mother is widely supported among scholars, and I have given that theory most of weight in the stuff about Skanderbeg's mother on this article. On the other hand, a possible Serbian origin of the Kastrioti family has not wide support among scholars, and we are not to present every theory on this article. Otherwise, Tesla, Alexander the Great, Markos Botsaris articles would be a mess. Alternative views on the Kastrioti family's origin are present in relevant articles, if I am not mistaken. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:46, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

I am not shure if there is a "scientific consensus that Skanderbeg was of Serb origin through his father", but probably he had partial Slavic ancestry in his paternal and maternal lines, as well as Albanian and maybe even some Greek. Jingiby (talk) 17:55, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Claims on some Greek origins of Skanderbeg are fringe and are supported only by some Greek nationalists and Arvanites, Greeks of Albanian ancestry many of whom believe that they are modern Dorians. From all theories on some non-Albainian origins of Skanderbeg, the one cliaming that his mother was a Serb has wide support among scholarship. Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:02, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Firstly, Bulgarians never lived in Kosovo. Kosovo was populated mainly by Slavic tribes, read Constantine Porphyrogenitus. The tribes were probably Serbized by 12th century. Dude, it's not fair to compare Nikola Tesla who lived in 20th century and Skanderbeg who lived in 15th century. Milos Obilic can not be Albanian, because simple etymology, "Milos", which means "dear" and "(K)Obilic", he gained that surname through legend that he was born by a mare. There aren't even any primary sources that claims that he was Albanian. Here's the real signature of Skanderbeg that I found in Ragusa's archives, where he clearly knew Serbian language. Sorry for being barbaric and angry and starting war edits. I now just want you to give me any primary source that he was Albanian, so we should we start debate that should we put Serbian origin theory or not. MilosHaran (talk) 01:24, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Ethnic composition map of the Balkans from Andrees Allgemeiner Handatlas, 1st Edition, Leipzig 1881.

Secondly, Kosovo was ceded from the Byzantine Empire to the First Bulgarian Empire circa 840 and remain part from it until circa 1015. The development of Old Church Slavonic literacy in the country and the acceptation of Orthodoxy, had the effect of preventing the assimilation of the South Slavs into neighboring cultures, which promoted the formation of a distinct Bulgarian identity. As result the numerous Slavic tribes in that broad area from the Danube to the north, to the Aegean Sea to the south, and from the Adriatic Sea to the west, to the Black Sea to the east, accepted the common ethnonym "Bulgarians". During the 9th. century the Bulgarians established a form of national identity that despite far from modern nationalism, helped them to survive as a distinct entity through the centuries. After 1015 till the end of the 12th. century Kosovo was part from a Byzantine province called Bulgaria (theme). Kosovo was also occasionally part from the Second Bulgarian Empire during 13th. century. The Serbs ruled over it during the 14th century. Afterwards followed 500 years Ottoman rule. By the way, Marin Barleti who wrote during the 15th. century the biography of Skanderbeg, when talking about the inhabitants of the area where he was born, calls them "Bulgarians". With the rise of modern nationalism during the 19th. century Western and Russian ethnographers often displayed on their maps or described the southern parts of Kosovo's Slavic population as Bulgarian. It was part of the Bulgarian Exarchate at that time. For example, the second man into the hierarchy of the Bulgarian Revolutionary Central Committee then - Dimitar Obshti, was from Kosovo. More, an article published in the Belgian magazine Ons Volk Ontwaakt (Our Nation Awakes) on 21 December 1912 estimated 827,100 inhabitants in the Vilajet of Kosovo from whom: Christian Bulgarians - 250,000; Muslim Bulgarians - 14,000; Orthodox Serbs - 113,000; Mixed (Bulgarian-Serbian) - 22,000. By the way, there are still some Slavs who retained their Bulgarophile sentiments. In May 2018, about 500 of them have filed a petition in the country's parliament demanding official recognition of the Bulgarian community here. Stop pushing biased info. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 05:03, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

250,000 Muslim Bulgarians??? I just wonder where they have went after 10 years. Yeah, Bulgarian Empire controlled eastern Kosovo, while Serbia western, the border was near the city Drsnik. The Bulgaria theme map isn't right, there is no Duklja, there are no sources that Bulgaria theme even had Kosovo in the article also owner of that map even said that it's not accurate. Cite me where Marlin Barleti said that Skanderbeg was Bulgarian. So what if that Dimitar Obshti was from Kosovo? That doesn't prove anything. Bulgarophiles is a term used for people from region of Macedonia and region of Pomoravlje, but where is Kosovo? Not even true that Bulgarians had Kosovo in 13th century. Please check facts friend. MilosHaran (talk) 11:16, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Please, write and read more carefully! Christian Bulgarians - 250,000; Muslim Bulgarians - 14,000. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 11:32, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Sorry Slavic bro, haven't saw it, but where they went after 10 years? MilosHaran (talk) 11:37, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Please, check the Report of the International Commission on the Balkan Wars. Especially p. 158. Those who declared themselves as Bulgarians were, harassed or deported. The high clergymen of Bulgarian Orthodox Church were also deported. Bulgarian schools were closed and teachers expelled. All the Slavic population not depending on its identity was forced to declare as Serbs. Those who refused were tortured. The International Commission concluded that the Serbian state started a wide sociological experiment of assimilation through terror in its new territories. Jingiby (talk) 11:54, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

That's Macedonia, we are talking about western Kosovo. MilosHaran (talk) 12:09, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Ethnological map by the French Professor Constant Desjardins (1787‒1876). This map bears the title „Serbia and the districts in which Serbian language is spoken". It was issued in Belgrade in 1853.

Citation from the report on the Serbs: "They have not merely resumed possession of their ancient domain, the Sandjak of Novi-Bazar and Old Servia proper (Kosovo Pole and Metohia), despite the fact that this historic domain was strongly Albanian; they have not merely added thereto the tract described by patriotic Servian ethnographers as "Enlarged Old Servia" (an ancient geographical term which we have seen twice enlarged)." The second map is a Serbian map from the mid. of the 19th. century. This map had been put together according to Serbian authors. Per this map, there is revealed the area where Serbian language is spoken and Serbs lived then. It stretches approximately northwest from the line: Prizren-Pristina-Prokuplje-Nis. East from that line, there were no Serbs. Jingiby (talk) 12:33, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

So, you are telling me that Serbs never lived in Kosovo in 15th century? MilosHaran (talk) 12:58, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

No way. Firstly ethnic Serbs settled the area at the end of the 12th century, but look above. You are claiming that Bulgarians never lived in Kosovo, provided that the area was ceded to Bulgaria in the mid. of the 9th. century and there are still thousands of people with Bulgarian identity. Jingiby (talk) 13:07, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

No brother, I haven't said or thought that, Bulgarians may Bulgarized Slavic tribes in Kosovo, but in eastern Kosovo, not western, because western was under Serbian control from circa 780 when Viseslav united all Serbian tribes, but Simeon conqured Serbia in circa 927, and then western Kosovo was in Serbian control again circa 931, when Caslav came and reunited all Serbian tribes, then in 969 western Kosovo became part of Byzantium theme of Serbia. In 1081 Constantine Bodin (known in your history as Tsar Peter III), probably conqured western Kosovo and give it to Vukan. Stefan Nemanja conquered all Kosovo in 1183 and Kosovo was under Serbian control until 15th century. MilosHaran (talk) 13:23, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Bulgarians controlled Kosovo for some centuries. In the 15th century the population of Kosovo was mixed, it consisted of Serbs, Albanians, Bulgarians, Vlachs, Italians. The local dialect of Orahovac is a mixture of Albanian, Serbian, Turkish and Bulgarian languages, and Orahovac is in western Kosovo. Even today there are people of Bulgarian origin in Albania, next to its border with Kosovo. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:31, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, but Serbs were a big majority at that time. Look at this article Demographic history of Kosovo. Also, his great grandfather's name was Branilo/Branko, which is used mainly by Serbs and Croats, not Bulgarians. MilosHaran (talk) 13:41, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Academics debate whether the said Branilo was Skanderbeg's ancestor. Furthermore, the origin of a name is irrelevant. Many non-Serbs in the Balkans of that time had Serbian names. Even today many placenames in Greece and Albania have Slavic origin. Are Greeks and Albanians Slavic nations? No. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:55, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

None of said here is enough to eliminate a widely known idea Skanderbeg was Serb/Serb origin, and Antidiskriminator post is the one I support here. FkpCascais (talk) 14:12, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

I think that there is such theory: Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL but it is far from widely known idea. Among the most reliable search engines as Google scholar, HighBeam and JSTOR the result is = 0. Jingiby (talk) 14:23, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

I hope you looked at the demographics article. Okay then, I will put it through article, as seeing people supporting it. MilosHaran (talk) 14:27, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

The theory that Skanderbeg's mother had Serbian origin is on the article. It is supported by a considerable number of academics. The theory that Skanderbeg's father had Serbian origin does not have considerable support by academics. It is part of discussions about Albanians-Serbs conflict, and ways how the two groups have helped each other. It has a political context. Hence we are not going to present every theory here. The matter is explained on relevant articles. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:36, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Dude, I haven't made that sentences, I found them on Wikipedia. Yeah we will not put a Skenderbeg theory on Skenderbeg's article, better find other one. Yeah, maybe Albanian academics. MilosHaran (talk) 14:43, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, well there has been some past editors who have pushed fringe theories popular only in Serbian historiography on Wikipedia, people are lazy about cleaning it up, and I suppose this is the result. A good number of them are banned now, though I know at least one is socking but pulling an SPI on him is just not worth it right now. The guy fought and gave his life for a land called "Albania". That makes him Albanian. Yes he had some Slavic ancestry. This is already covered on the page, but that's not enough for you -- and what's shocking is that I guess Albanian-Serb fights aren't enough, as you even go into denialism about Bulgaria's long and significant history in the Western Balkans and indeed the significant historical presence of ethnic Bulgarians in the area. Enough. Contribute constructively or don't. --Calthinus (talk) 15:40, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Check MilosHaran's edits. They have tried today to push a POV that there was no Bosnian identity in the Middle Ages. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:44, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

@Jingiby: Antonina Zhelyazkova mentions a Venetian source where Scanderbeg's mother is considered Bulgarian and not Serbian. "It is a curious circumstance that Skanderbeg's mother was a Slav woman, according to some sources a Bulgarian named Voisava, a fact recorded in an anonymous Venetian chronicle: "Huic uxor fuit Voisava, Pologi Domini filia, est autem Pologum oppidum in Macedoniae et Bulgarie confinibus" Vargmali (talk) 16:00, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

" The guy fought and gave his life for a land called "Albania". That makes him Albanian'." What reliable source back this claim? FkpCascais (talk) 16:17, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Re FkpCascais, actually it's not necessary for me to provide sources for things I say only on talk pages-- otherwise I might be asking you for a source for your claim that "it's widely known that Skanderbeg was Serb/Serb origin" (check your grammar there bro). "Widely known" maybe by the readers of Serbian nationalist historiography which among other things calls Croats "Catholicized Serbs", pretends Bosniaks never existed, pretends Albanians never existed, and ignores Bulgarian history in the Western Balkans. Also re the "personal" comment, no actually I'm not even from the Balkans but let's WP:SPADE here, but even to me it is plain as day that the sole reason for this is provoking Albanians (is he a matter of great importance to Serbia? No, not really...). It's not acceptable, and if you lower yourself to this standard, don't be surprised by the result.--Calthinus (talk) 16:35, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

I am persuaded by Vargmali's source. Marin Barleti is his writing mentioned a Bulgarian tribe is Dibra area. I think we should make changes to reflect WP:NPOV. Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:26, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Also, the link of his family with Serbian empire is totally omissed in the article, whys? Starting to being sources:

• Croatia: Ludwig von Gaj and the Croats are Herrenvolk Goths Syndrome page 246 and 247. FkpCascais (talk) 16:32, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
• Identity and Territorial Autonomy in Plural Societies by Ramón Máiz, ‎Safran William - 2014, page , says "This force was ledby John Kastrioti, who was of mixed Albanian-Serbian origin and whose son, Skenderbeg, was ..."

There are a lot of Bulgarian sources, some of them reliable, claiming his mother was a Bulgarian woman. Jingiby (talk) 16:34, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Of couse, we shouyld mention in the article that Bulgarian sources claim Voisava as Bulgarian. FkpCascais (talk) 16:39, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

By the way, those views are in fact maybe a fringe theory? Jingiby (talk) 16:41, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

HERE'S THE FULL LIST OF EARLY 20th CENTURY HISTORIANS THAT CLAIMS HE HAD SERBIAN ORIGIN. Let see what will you say on this. :) MilosHaran (talk) 16:47, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Congrats, you found a source from 1943, 1905, and the 1870s, and then one that looks like it was written maybe centuries ago(?) and uploaded them on Imgur. WP:RS--Calthinus (talk) 16:59, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Of course my friend. Here is photo of the page of book ″Historia univeryale racolta di Francesco Sansovino″ written by Italian scholar Francesco Sansovino, who lived 1 century later.MilosHaran (talk) 17:00, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

WP:RS. --Calthinus (talk) 17:04, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Okay, here's on Google books. I don't see why he is not reliable, he even studied law at the universities of Padua and Bologna. MilosHaran (talk) 17:30, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

The addition of the view that the "Triballi" were Bulgarians is in accordance with WP:NPOV. The view that Voisava was a member of Muzaka family should also be added. @MilosHaran Read WP:Primary and do not use old sources published centuries ago. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:35, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Why? A man who lived 1 century after isn't reliable, did he even had a reason to lie? Why is then Marin Barleti reliable? OK then, here are the newer sources: 1 2 and here's list of other sources. MilosHaran (talk) 17:50, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

In "Problems of the Formation of the Albanian People, Their Language, and Culture: (selection) issued by Akademia e Shkencave e RPS të Shqipërisë, "8 Nëntori" Publishing House, 1984 on p. 329 is explained that Martin Barletty calls the Slavs «Illyrians» and the Bulgarians «Tribalis» (Bulgari siue Tribali). Jingiby (talk) 17:57, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @MilosHaran You should read the said policies before getting involved in topics that seem to be difficult for you. That there is a theory that Skanderbeg had Serbian origin (from his mother) is showed on the article. Read WP:Primary, WP:Undue, WP:NPOV. Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:00, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

But I want to prove that theory for his father exists too. For WP:Undue and WP:NPOV I have sent non-Serbian sources so I don't see any reason to they broke neutral viewpoint. I don't see which rule I broke on WP:Primary. MilosHaran (talk) 18:14, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Did you read those policies entirely? Do you understand them now? There are theories that Skanderbeg had Greek, Turkish and Macedonian origin. They, similarily to the theory that his father had Serbian origin, do not have considerable acceptance. The article should reflect only what is generally accepted as viable theory. Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:18, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

This dispute has gone on for years long before any of us ever edited. The result is always the same. Some sources say Skanderbeg had some Serbian origins. Others say he was completely Albanian (yes). Some sources say he was Greek, Bulgarian, whatever. Welcome to the Balkans where people have nothing better to do than claim each other's national heroes. This page is not changing to say we know for a fact he was a Serb, just as we are not changing Markos Botsaris to say he was Albanian, or Nikola Tesla and et cetera. You said you can be a constructive editor on the other talk page under your topic "Bosnian identity did not exist" (ahem). If that's true, then quit wasting our time and your own time too here. --Calthinus (talk) 18:21, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

@Jingiby So what? Serbs were also called Triballi in history. The first Serbian king Mihailo Vojislavljevic had title "King of Serbs and Triballs", Niketas Choniates called also Serbs Triballi. Mehmed the Conqueror in his looting of Serbia mentions Triballs as Serbs. Demetrios Chalkokondyles also calls Serbs Triballs, even flag of the First Serbian uprising has symbol of Triballs. MilosHaran (talk) 18:28, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

What about: Bulgarians never lived in Kosovo? Stop nonsensic claims, please. Full stop for now. Jingiby (talk) 18:31, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

I HAVEN'T SAID THAT BULGARIANS HAVEN'T LIVED IN KOSOVO. Here are the sources for Serbs called Triballs: 1, for second one I couldn't find it on the internet, but it's C. Paparrigopoulos History of the Greek nation, Athens, 1874, vol. 5, p. 489. And for the third page 120. You can check for the First Serbian uprising flag on Wikipedia. MilosHaran (talk) 18:45, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Actually, you did say ["Firstly, Bulgarians never lived in Kosovo"]. It's one thing to lie, it's another thing to lie when the evidence of the falsehood is right in front of our faces.--Calthinus (talk) 16:03, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Jingby, Triballi ´s are more associated to Serbs than to Bulgarians. Milos, the best sources are the secundary sources from scholars. A secundary source from a historian analising some primary source has much more value than primary source being interpretd by ourselves. Just for you to know. FkpCascais (talk) 19:36, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

There is enough information here or to any knowledgable person to permanently dispute this article factual accuracy. Please do not remove desputed untill you prove the claims in article with reliable sources (cannot be done obviously, simply because this can be clasified as 'fake history (fake news..)). 178.149.9.21 (talk) 16:15, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

How can this article exist in this form?

There is literally no doubt who Skenderbeg was and what is his ethnic identity and origin, Mother: 'Vojislava' Father: 'Jovan', the surname 'Kastriot(ic)', the fact that 'islamization' was happening at the time in whole area of Balkans by the Ottomans does not give the right to Albanians to take away history from others. The whole idea of him becoming Albanized comes from XIX century and the workings of 'Naim Frashëri'. This article as many others are disgrace to any website that claims 'encyclopedic substance', this should not exist in this form. 178.149.9.21 (talk) 15:48, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Also, what kind of (excuse my language) BS is this:

Q1: Was Skanderbeg Albanian?[hide]

A1: Skanderbeg was born in what is Albania today. This article calls him Albanian partly for that reason (other reasons are his signature [Lord of Albania], his language and unambiguous Albanian name), although a :unified Albania didn't exist in his lifetime (as is the case for many modern day countries).

??? So, let's be clear, on every single article when someone is born in some area and his ethnicity is debated or unknown (not at all the case for this person tho, he was clearly Serbian), his ethnicity is given to :the name of the area AT THAT TIME with saying '(Today: Country X)', who decides those principles and how is this even allowed here?

This article should be re-writen or completely deleted. 178.149.9.21 (talk) 16:02, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

The comments by the IP sound like arguments and spelling done by Aleksandër I Madh Është Shqipëtar. Is that you AMES, once again coming back to haunt Wikipedia?Resnjari (talk) 16:17, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Do not remove dispute without argument!!! Article is disputed for factual accuracy, stop vandalizing it or you will get banned. 178.149.9.21 (talk) 19:11, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Disappointing AMES.Resnjari (talk) 19:15, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

The factual accuracy of the article is disputed!

Enough information is given by other users as well in talk to question factual accuracy of the article, please stop vandalizing it in edit wars. 178.149.9.21 (talk) 19:19, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

AMES give it a rest. These antics are boring.Resnjari (talk) 19:30, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

1. Stop calling me AMES. 2. Stop vandalizing artcile, I am asking mods to ban this person because he or she is vandalizing this artcile, thank you. 178.149.9.21 (talk) 19:32, 6 December 2018 (UTC)