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The introduction says he "never legally became a US citizen", but later that he voted in a presidential election and "became a US citizen". Which is it? Was this a case of an immigrant voting illegally?![[User:Gymnophoria|Gymnophoria]] ([[User talk:Gymnophoria|talk]]) 19:31, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
The introduction says he "never legally became a US citizen", but later that he voted in a presidential election and "became a US citizen". Which is it? Was this a case of an immigrant voting illegally?![[User:Gymnophoria|Gymnophoria]] ([[User talk:Gymnophoria|talk]]) 19:31, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

== Early Life ==

"Confessionally, the village was Lutheran in contrast to most of the Palatinate which was Calvinist and the Bavarian mainland which was overwhelmingly Catholic".

This is partly nonsense. The village was Protestant because in 1818 following a parishioners' plesbiscite in 1817, all Palatine Lutheran and Reformed congregations merged into confessionally united Protestant congregations.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Church_of_the_Palatinate

Revision as of 12:11, 1 September 2019


Archives (Index)

This page is archived by ClueBot III.

What is the claim to notability?

I am not seeing much claim to notability here. Almost all of the coverage is based on his relationship to Donald Trump. I think a strong argument could be made that there is no real encyclopedic notability independent of his legitimately famous grandson. IMHO it boils down to this question; would we have an article about this man if Donald Trump had never been born? I think not. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:34, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Did Donald Trump have any effect on Frederick Trump doing the things he did? No. Donald Trump wasn't born until 28 years after Frederick died; Frederick would have still done all the things he did had Donald never been born. While most sources on Frederick Trump at least mention Donald, they cover Frederick's actions in enough depth for him to be notable. Also, it's inappropriate to tag this article now; wait until it's not linked to from the main page. pbp 19:54, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(Copied from my talk page for continuity of discussion.) I have no objection to removing the tag while the article is linked on the main page and point in fact I should have waited. But the question is not whether he would have still done the things he did, but whether they would be considered worthy of any significant attention. As far as I can tell the coverage he has gotten is almost entirely based on his relationship to Donald. Once you eliminate that, I don't see much that separates him from any of the other millions of small business men of the late 19th century. -Ad Orientem (talk) 20:27, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Ad Orientem:: If a small businessman did things similar to Trump/Drumpf, and had as much source material about him as Trumpf/Drumpf does, it would probably be kept if created, even if he didn't have a connection to a celebrity. pbp 16:45, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Then there should be ample in depth WP:RS source coverage independent of Donald Trump. And maybe there is, though I rather doubt it. I admit that I have not combed through archived newspapers from the late 19th century. If such coverage can be found I will happily withdraw my concerns. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:50, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Samuel Bush & Alois Hitler both have very clear and strong claims to notability. Lawrence Washington does not. I can't see any claim to notability beyond his blood relationship to his obviously notable grandson. See WP:NOTGENEALOGY. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:47, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • What Milowent said, a Hitler analogy has never been more apt. Friedrich Drumpf's entry offers deeper context to what would would otherwise be just an intriguing one-liner in his grandson's entry. Drumpf's life is significantly more colorful than the "millions" of businessman of his era. Article is also well-written and sourced. Keep. Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 11:58, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The Hitler analogy is quite poor actually. Hitler has a very strong claim to notability because of his direct influence on his infamous son. Samuel Bush was a powerful and highly influential man in his own right and more than meets the standards for an article. The Washington Article is very weak and I see nothing there that meets WP:BASIC. In any event this is a moot point since other stuff exists but notability is WP:NOTINHERITED. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:47, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The name change (Drumpf-->Trump) is significant, the more so because Donald's father went on to obscure the family's German heritage, and Donald himself promoted the family's Swedish heritage myth as late as 1990. With multiple sources debunking the Swedish heritage myth, isn't it of use to have an NPOV article, with multiple RS sources, giving the man's true biography? Donald himself (in The Art of the Deal) intimated that Frederick died of alcohol-related causes, so it is useful to discover he was, in fact, a 1918 flu victim. His return to Germany and later return to the US is also of interest, and with his success in the Klondike, sets him apart from the crowd. I don't understand why Alois' influence on Adolf conveys more significance to his life than Frederick's influence (as a budding real estate investor) on Fred Jr. That's for Dr. Freud to decide, not us... In any event it is interesting that Trump's hotelier legacy goes back two generations, and that there's a self-promotional element in Frederick Trump as well, writing to a local paper drawing attention to his inn's louche reputation and standards. At the end of the day, I don't think this article would have merited DYK promotion if it lacked notability. We'll see what others say. Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 16:11, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is not here to debunk or verify genealogical claims by notable persons. To the extent there is some strong relevance it should be covered in the main article about the notable entity. The criteria is really very simple. We don't do articles about people who lack a claim to independent notability. This doesn't preclude articles about someone who is related to a notable person. They just have to be notable in their own right. Alois Hitler falls into that category and so does Donald Trump's father who is clearly independently notable. Frederick Trump looks highly doubtful to me. And Lawrence Washington (see above) is such an obvious and glaring case of genealogy that I have sent it to AfD. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:20, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is better sourced than Lawrence, though. You could probably get Lawrence deleted on notability/sourcing grounds alone. pbp 17:04, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
in my opinion ,there'senough public interest to show notability. But the place to determine this is AfD. DGG ( talk ) 17:12, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree subject is not notable. This is also an example of WP:RECENTISM. The above discussion shows that. The fact that Donald apparently didn't know much about his grandfather, shows how not notable he is. I would suggest an AfD after Trump loses or withdraws from the presidential race. If he becomes president I think an AfD is unlikely to succeed.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:16, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Jack Upland: I think you're misreading RECENTISM. It's not like the articles that have already been released will go away when Hillary or Bernie beats Trump. If you're notable at one particular point in time, you're notable at all points afterward. This article would fail recentism if a disproportionate amount of information in the article was about things that happened, say, since Donald starting running for President. Nearly all of this article about events that are 100 years old. pbp 02:54, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, I think recentism sums it up: an article with "flimsy, transient merits" created because of a recent "spike" in "public attention" on the Trump family. This article was only created in September, and most of the sources date from this year.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:31, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think you're taking that quote out of context, @Jack Upland:. Recentism spikes are about people who receive transient coverage in 2015 for something they did in 2015. Also, you're ignoring the book from the year 2000. pbp 17:37, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The fact that Donald apparently didn't know much about his grandfather, shows how not notable he is."
  1. if Donald doesn't find it notable, its not notable.
  2. if Donald doesn't know it, its not worth noting.
  3. if Donald claims something happened, it did.
  4. if Donald says Americans will be tired of winning when he wins, it is true.
Let's test this proposed notability standard in a few AfDs. I'm off to add him as the winner of United States presidential election, 2016 citing WP:DONALD ("He reported that he will win.").
--Milowent • hasspoken 20:45, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And I'm accused of taking things out of context.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:28, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Milowent simply reduced one of the things you said to absurdity, @Jack Upland:, as is his want. In case it wasn't clear why Donald was unfamiliar/in denial about his German heritage for portions of his life, it was because Fred Jr. (Donald's dad) hid his German ancestry at a time (during the World Wars) when being of German ancestry was controversial. Milowent's general point is that Donald Trump alone doesn't determine notability, reliable sources do. pbp 00:34, 24 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Some opinions don't have to be distorted to be absurd.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:44, 24 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
One such opinion is that an article about a guy who's been dead for 97 years is recentist. pbp 04:14, 24 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Would it make sense to propose a merge with Donald_Trump_(Last_Week_Tonight)? @Muboshgu: --Potguru (talk) 21:46, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think this entire section above has laid out a good case for why this individual is sufficiently notable for his own article. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:48, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There is no point in merging with the Last Week Tonight episode, which has never even mentioned or shown Frederick. Irrelevant. starship.paint ~ KO 01:23, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the notability has been established. It is a clear case of inherited notability. However, as Donald shows no sign of becoming less notable, his grandfather will continue to get attention...--Jack Upland (talk) 20:34, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What happened to Donald? Does anyone know?--Jack Upland (talk) 07:13, 26 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
He went down to Mar-A-Lago] and had a YUGE and expensive Thanksgiving dinner. pbp 14:10, 26 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Drumpf" never existed

Baptism certificate: [1] --Goetzmertz (talk) 21:30, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Other listeners, do you believe this to be accurate? I'm not sure I do, because a number of sources refer to him as Drumpf. pbp 02:44, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This may be an accurate record, enough of the information matches up to be quite likely. But I'd want to see the image scan of the actual record, which is not available except on microfilm. It is original research in any event. It is not sufficient to overrule the "Drumpf" information; German script can be hard to decipher.--Milowent • hasspoken 20:49, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There is also the Crolly article that names him as Trump.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:33, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Jack Upland: At what point in his life, though? pbp 23:40, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Nein, Opa Friedrich war 1885 aus Deutschland ausgewandert. Und er hieß auch schon immer Trump, nie Drumpf, auch wenn sich diese Falschinformation hartnäckig hält." No, Grandpa Friedrich emigrated from Germany in 1885. And he was always called Trump, never Drumpf, though this misinformation persists.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:40, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It is so funny. This is the result if you search "Drumpf" in the telephone book Das Telefonbuch: search "Drumpf". Search result: "Wir konnten zu Ihrer Eingabe keine Einträge finden" translated "No entries for your input" --Goetzmertz (talk) 20:11, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I am willing to concede that it is likely he was born a Trump, and as such, @Goetzmertz:, you will have no further argument from me if you make changes to that effect at this page, at Donald Trump, or at pages related to them. pbp 20:59, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The family name changed from Drumpf to Trump between 1648 and 1700 according to The Trumps: Three Generations that Built an Empire, already cited by the article. This man was born much later and is therefore unlikely to have ever been known as Drumpf. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.0.151.9 (talk) 22:43, 6 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it was sometime in mid 1640's -or during the course of Germany's Thirty Years' War that ended in 1648, according to that source. So Friedrich, born in 1869 would never have used Drumpf, nor his father Christian Johannes as the spelling change would have happened nearly 200 years before his time even! 1305cj (talk) 14:00, 29 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The article should still note the error because it is prevalent.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:25, 6 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I still think the error should be noted somewhere in the article. Didn't Donald Trump claim it was Drumpf himself? Does anyone have a source?--Jack Upland (talk) 00:17, 2 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]


Knock off the childish zeal to modify the article just because the translation of the word provides a chuckle. Just because you hate Trump and watch "IT'S CURRENT YEAR" Oliver last night doesn't mean to need to go modifying article of people you politically dislike. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:6000:8B09:7E00:A101:662B:79BC:1492 (talk) 16:47, 29 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Only the facts are relevant. IF the name changed centuries ago, fine. I had read it was relatively recent, so I would like to know the facts. It also concerns me IF there is a possibility that history is being rewritten. 'Drumpf' is no more humorous than 'Trump'. Lets just have the truth of it please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.255.137.236 (talk) 08:06, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]


According to Bavarian "intelligence papers" of 1840, the Trump last name was spelled this way for Trump's father Johannes Trump and Trump's aunt, Charlotte Trump: https://books.google.ca/books?id=efZEAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA141&dq=der+trump&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=trump&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.96.180.245 (talk) 20:04, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So funny! Trump since 17th century

Since 17th only Trump in Kallstadt, no Drumps to find. His father Johannes named Trump. The sister of Johannes Charlotte Luise Trump, was the grandmother of Henry J. Heinz. Just read sources, not the Fox News styled. ;-)) --Goetzmertz (talk) 10:02, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree: Simply look at the two references given in the beginning of the article (Crolly, Blair); both state that Friedrich Trump has never been called Drumpf in his life, and Blair explains that the whole family changed their spelling from Drumpf to Trump in the course of the 17th (!) century. I urge the other contributors not to continue inserting this debunked myth into the article, especially when you give no sources for your edits. I will rework the initial sentence once again in order to make it compatible with the given references. --Andropov (talk) 19:15, 2 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The Drumpf story is prevalent. It would be good to indicate where this came from, I think.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:04, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, but as you would like to mention it, I ask you to provide material on this. --Andropov (talk) 08:37, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure where the error originated. It would be good to add it in if anyone has information.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:48, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Trump#cite_ref-5 by quotes Donald Trump's biographer as being the source for this error. The page should mention the dispute over his name, cite Donald Trump's biographer as the evidence for this, and cite whatever sources Goetzmertz is referring to above as the evidence against. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hatfinch (talk • contribs) 17:29, 29 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As the error keeps on being inserted into the article, it would be good to document it, as the Swede story is documented. If we did say something about the error, it would stop people thinking they are improving the article by inserting it again. Blair explains that the name was changed in the 17th century, but doesn't appear to say where the modern claim came from. Does anyone have a source?--Jack Upland (talk) 18:49, 14 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The lack of internal consistency in the article becomes a problem. If we believe the sources saying Trump was the original name it follows that Trumpf on the immigration list was a clerical error. It then creates confusion describing the switch back to Trump as an anglifying (since Trump is as German as Trumpf). Secondly, Goemertz needs to tone it down and be less nasty as that in itself is an incentive to edit wars.--Batmacumba (talk) 16:20, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There are multiple books referring to the name Drumpf. Gwenda Blair, The Trumps: Three Generations of Builders and a Presidential Candidate Paperback – December 4, 2001 for example. There are more easily found, because its trivially googleable : https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=drumpf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.254.216 (talk) 17:25, 29 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The only "Drumpf" in Blair's book is to a Hanns Drumpf in 1608. In Donald Trump's autobiography he refers to Blairs book: "A writer named Gwenda Blair spent twelve years on her thorough history, The Trumps: Three Genrerations That Built an Empire. She even traced our lineage back to 1608, when a German lawyer names Hanns Drumpf setteld in the town of Kallstads, forty miles west of the Rhine River. According to Blair, one of my ancestors, a winegrower, changed the family name to Trump at the end of the 1600s - a good move, I think, since Drumpf Tower doesn't sound nearly as catchy." 1009 (talk) 03:30, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Actually end of XVIII c.There is genealogy entry on geni.com, people usually see the record before posting anything, but I don't argue it should be a wikipedia source. Keerp in mind that in earlier days the same person could have the name written in more than one way,and it was legitimate, and no name change was required, often was just how a person who wrote things down heard the name pronounced, people were not so exact about records in those days, as strange as it may appear to us today.On geni.com we have Friedrich Trump aka Trumpf, Joahnnes Trump aka Drumpf, born in 1789, and his father was also Trump aka Drumpf.[1] Bialosz (talk) 20:00, 25 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As a german historian, I would like to support this entry. In the 17th century, names where written any which way, depending on the literacy of the persons involved, their dialects etc. There aren't many families whose last name was written the same way in the 17th century as it is now. Bohemien (talk) 15:52, 27 January 2017 (UTC) bohemien[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 27 June 2016

File:Friedrich Trump Family (retouched).jpg
Portrait of Friedrich Trump's Family
Elisabeth Christ & Friedrich Trump

Can someone insert these pictures in the article? thank you --Johnny Peter Smith (talk) 14:39, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Johnny Peter Smith (talk) 10:41, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Done Stickee (talk) 03:27, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2016

'Friedrich Trump' should be changed to 'Friedrich Drumpf', since Mr Trump changed his name while in the US [2]. Similarly 'Christian Johannes Trump' should be changed to 'Christian Johannes Drumpf' since the elder 'Trump' never changed his name at all


Theologikal (talk) 19:04, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: Please read the talkpage for the dozen, or so it seems, conversations about Trump/Drumpf. Sir Joseph (talk) 19:13, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ https://www.geni.com/people/Johannes-Trump/6000000040650691597
  2. ^ http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/trump-astor-weathy-nyc-families-wills-revealed-article-1.2345156

Was "Rooms for Ladies" really a common euphemism for prostitution in the late 1800s?

The phrase seems to have had other meanings.

From the, “Seventh Annual Report of the Board of Railroad Commissioners of the State of New York, For the Fiscal Year Ending September 30, 1889 – Volume 1”:

Page 197-198. “At Johnstown and Gloversville new brick depots of fine design and construction have been erected. They are each 150 feet long and about thirty five feet wide. They have a covered platform 225 feet long in front and a neat carriage canopy in the rear. The entire interior is finished in native woods, hightly polished. Steam-heating, water-closets, lavatory and private rooms for ladies are all provided.”

It only took a few minutes to find these facts online.96.52.194.112 (talk) 22:07, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, they were called Raines Law hotels. I'll find more sources. Bearian (talk) 22:24, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The allegation by Gwenda Blair was effectively refuted by Seattle historian Robert Ketcherside.RichardBond (talk) 15:44, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Update: The legend of Hanns Drumpf (17th century)

There has been quite a debate on this topic in de.WP – and now I learned about Donald Trump (Last Week Tonight).

Obviously, the story of the "itinerant lawyer Hanns Drumpf" as the earliest known ancestor originates from Gwenda Blair's The Trumps, p. 26, and nobody knows where she got this information from. Now recently Kate Connolly from The Guardian visited Kallstadt and found at least half a dozen different spellings of "Trump" in the church register but doesn't mention "Drumpf". Independently, user:1rhb specifically searched for "Drumpf" in this register several months ago (on my request) and couldn't find any hints. (BTW: This is only about spellings because all these permutations are spoken the same way in the local idiom.)

Up to now, the best evidence on the President's German ancestors comes from the genealogists of GEDBAS.[2] According to this family tree, the grandfather of Friedrich Trump, Johannes Trump (1789-1835), came from the nearby village Bobenheim am Berg and moved to Kallstadt around 1800. So there is no evidence of any paternal ancestors in Kallstadt in the 17th century as claimed by Blair. And the surname Trump can be traced back to 1727 in Bobenheim.

There may have been an itinerant lawyer named Drumpf visiting Kallstadt in 1608 as Blair states, but the rest of her story (settling there and becoming the earliest known ancestor of Donald) is by no means from credible. --Klaus Frisch (talk) 11:35, 26 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

there's an error in his original name

It says on wiki Frederick Trump (born Friedrich Trump; March 14, 1869 – May 27, 1918) and also it says Friedrich Trump in the info box. This should be corrected to Friedrich Trumpf as shown in his immigration papers.69.166.118.229 (talk) 01:37, 21 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Friedr. Trumpf" is an error that occurred when 16 years old Friedrich arrived in NY. There's no question that his real surname and that of his father and his grandfather was Trump. --Klaus Frisch (talk) 02:11, 21 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, immigration records show a German immigrant having a German name, Friedr. (Friedrich presumably) Trumpf. According to google translate, trumpf is a German word for the trump card. I would like to see proof that it is an error, something more reliable than a scan like this which would be considered a first hand source. The name is very clear and legible. If Blair is trying to say his ancestors changed their name something English/Brittish way back then, and the evidence contradicts that, maybe the book shouldn't be considered reliable. It looks more like some kind of official narrative the current Trump wants to push. As in, his ancestors were American before America even existed. Hogwash. Bitshifter700 (talk) 10:31, 29 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As to Trumpf, follow the link. This last name is more common than Trump but both are German. There is no need for speculations. Compare what I wrote above. BTW: Blair's book is excellent even though she made some mistakes. And "the current Trump" declared at least until 1987 that his parental ancestors came from Sweden. :) --Klaus Frisch (talk) 21:28, 25 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Illegal emigrant

I seem to have got into an edit war with an IP (who's now registered themselves) about Trump being an illegal emigrant. I have two questions. 1. Is it relevant? 2. Is is a correct fact? As far as I can see, his papers, visible in the article show his immigration (not emigration) and barring refugees, immigration (legally) isn't possible without the corresponding emigration. However, my point here is that this seems to be done in order to confuse readers. A lot of people do get confused between immigration and emigration. Perhaps it could be worded better? --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 20:55, 19 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussions at the nomination pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:22, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Surname

According to my research on the database of the Verein für Computergenealogie, Trump's earliest known male ancestor was not Johann Paul Trump (1727–1792), as stated in the article, but Johann Sebastian Trump (1699–1756). In the database, no place is given. The chain of Johann Sebastian Trump's offspring is as follows:

In fact, Johann Paul Trump (1727–1792) is in no direct ancestor of DJT. --Phrontis (talk) 18:45, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

After finding an older ancestor, I could finally update the article. --Phrontis (talk) 13:48, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Citizenship

The introduction says he "never legally became a US citizen", but later that he voted in a presidential election and "became a US citizen". Which is it? Was this a case of an immigrant voting illegally?!Gymnophoria (talk) 19:31, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Early Life

"Confessionally, the village was Lutheran in contrast to most of the Palatinate which was Calvinist and the Bavarian mainland which was overwhelmingly Catholic".

This is partly nonsense. The village was Protestant because in 1818 following a parishioners' plesbiscite in 1817, all Palatine Lutheran and Reformed congregations merged into confessionally united Protestant congregations. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Church_of_the_Palatinate

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