Talk:George Floyd

Is this article necessary?

Not to deviate from the gravity of the issue, but is George Floyd as a person noteworthy? To me it seems the only thing he is known for is the unfortunate manner of his death. Aside from that, had he not been arrested and killed, this page would not exist. When people type "George Floyd" in the search box it is likely that they are seeking information on the police brutality case and expecting a redirect to "Killing of George Floyd", not his life story.

I support incorporating/merging certain details in this article into the Killing of George Floyd article, but certain other information such as his "Discography" (which do not link anywhere else) should be omitted or used in other existing articles e.g. Screwed Up Click.

Again, as with most people throughout the world I am sad and outraged over how he met his end, but at the same time we need to keep things balanced in Wikipedia.

Yekshemesh (talk) 03:10, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree, in my opinion George Floyd as a person does not seem to meet the notability standards set for noteworthy. Specifically, George Floyd's role in the incident was that he was stopped by the police and murdered, his discography or where he was born played no role in that. I agree with rolling major biographical details into the Killing of George Floyd article.

Sean0987 (talk) 04:06, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

It seems like a clear cut case to keep the article about the murder, not about the man. St.nerol (talk) 13:12, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Where did George Floyd die?

It says in Minneapolis, but where? Which street or intersection? 97.113.131.139 (talk) 19:18, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

He was pronounced dead at 9:25 p.m. at the Hennepin County Medical Center. The knee-on-the-neck, which left him unconscious and pulseless, happened at the intersection of E. 38th St. and Chicago Ave South, roughly between 8:20 and 8:30 p.m. I'm not sure if being pronounced dead at 9:25 at the hospital means he was still alive (in some medical sense) when he arrived at the hospital. See Killing of George Floyd for details and sources. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 19:40, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

so many related articles...

I think it's become kind of silly that we have multiple articles about his death, the protests, etc., but not a bio. This seems to be no longer a matter of notability based on one incident. —valereee (talk) 17:48, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

@Valereee: My issue with this biography is that it's basically a subset of the information in the article Killing of George Floyd. Also, adding a biography does not solve the problem of multiple articles about George Floyd's death, but instead exacerbates the problem. I'm sure that once the dust settles he will get a proper biography, but while events are unfolding it seems very confusing. --Elephanthunter (talk) 18:09, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Elephanthunter, a lot of the bio information that was in Killing of GF shouldn't be in that article, and I've moved quite a bit of it to this bio. —valereee (talk) 18:28, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

I feel like this page is fine but it shouldn't be a reason to remove info from the Killing of George Floyd page. Because that is the one people are seeing right now. Also, we need to make sure people can easily find links between this page, Killing of George Floyd, and George Floyd protests. The Spirit of Oohoowahoo (talk) 19:02, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

The various articles are a little confusing, I have to admit. Perennial Student (talk) 19:36, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

@Valereee: This will cause an overlap of information with Killing of George Floyd, as is already happening (eg the reference to the state autopsy which is repeated, for balance we're now going to have to add the independent autopsy, and as you can see, this quickly becomes repetition of material). Although some page splits and merges are needed, I think they're currently not being discussed enough and being done hastily. I think perhaps some more waiting should've been done before creating this page. I'm not sure how much more can be elaborated here. It may end up being the case that much of the information in the killing page should be moved here or elsewhere, like the Rodney King article, but I think it's a bit premature currently. The current design might just cause confusion, poorer access to information by readers, and repetitiveness. ProcrasinatingReader (talk) 19:56, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

ProcrasinatingReader, overlap of information isn't a problem for WP. Most of our articles overlap to some degree with other articles. We deal with each subject as if it were independent; if we can use information from another article, that's great! New York (city) can use information from Manhattan. —valereee (talk) 02:31, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@Valereee: Yup, we discussed on the other merge discussion :). I was more concerned with the direction some users' edits to this page were going - to possibly duplicating content copiously. That would be pretty excessive imo, if we're spending paragraphs talking about the same aspects of the death as another page, on the exact same topic. But I don't have much opposition to expanding on the background, and other topics, of the individual here. ProcrasinatingReader (talk) 02:42, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Mention of autopsy: balance

The mention of autopsy added in this revision (@Perennial Student) may create some controversy, since that medical opinion is disputed. I don't think that can be written about here without equal reference to the autopsy by Floyd's family which came to a different conclusion. I think we should either include both, or none. ProcrasinatingReader (talk) 23:47, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Precedence should be given to the official account, but I don't oppose the inclusion of the private autopsy. Perennial Student (talk) 00:22, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

An editor helpfully added the family autopsy to the article. Perennial Student (talk) 02:06, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Details of home invasion

Note: I've been informed by an editor that I'm posting defamatory information. The UK newspaper Daily Mail (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8366533/George-Floyd-moved-Minneapolis-start-new-life-released-prison-Texas.html) has posted extracts from the police documentation regarding the 2007 home invasion case. The documents state that mr. Floyd (along with others) invaded a private house and put a gun to the stomach of a woman. There have been further claims made about the race and state of that woman which I can't confirm on the basis of the documents in the Daily Mail article (I apologize for making the claim in the previous version of this post). If I understand the abbreviation "yoa" correctly, there was a year-old child in the house. This seems like relevant information and reference to include in the article, bearing in mind that it by now includes a discography.46.109.77.155 (talk) 03:18, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

The Daily Mail is not considered a reliable source on Wikipedia. While the home invasion side has been added by me (as it's supported by the Guardian and other sources), the Daily Mail facts are omitted precisely because they are not reliable. The info in the Daily Mail cannot be "vouched for" by a reliable source, per WP:SYNTH. Perennial Student (talk) 03:31, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Did you see the article? It includes scanned documents, that's what I'm basing this on, not the article itself. I find it REALLY hard to believe that even Daily Mail would dare forge court documents regarding a recently murdered man!! 46.109.77.155 (talk) 03:33, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

The "consensus" section regarding Daily Mail that you quoted states that it is "generally unreliable" and should not be used when other sources exist. However, other sources do not exist. The consensus mentions "poor fact checking, sensationalism, and flat-out fabrication": the court document includes the name and the correct date, which seems to exclude poor fact checking; flat-out fabrication seems totally improbable - it would require them to decide to forge an official US court document along with signatures and seals! And while it is sensationalist, that would only concern notability. Reminder, the article currently includes a discography, so standard of notability seems to be low. 46.109.77.155 (talk) 03:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

"As a result, the Daily Mail should not be used for determining notability, nor should it be used as a source in articles." The over-lords have spoken. Perennial Student (talk) 03:52, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Perennial Student, it may be that reliable sources will eventually support what the Daily Mail is saying, but right now we don't know. Would you like to clarify what you mean by "the over-lords have spoken"? —valereee (talk) 04:07, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Should this remain on this talk page, I would like to add a little fact-check regarding some rumors floating around on youtube and facebook. <REDACTED> 46.109.77.155 (talk) 04:23, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

You're free to make any requested changes you'd like, if you back them up with reliable sources. Best to do them in new sections so they don't get lost in this one. Perennial Student (talk) 04:30, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@46.109.77.155: I've redacted the rumors, which are also unsourced. Please see the policy WP:BDP on recently dead people. Regards.—Bagumba (talk) 05:01, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

All right, but you do understand that if respected outlets simply ignore this story (clearly for PC and not sourcing reasons), conspiracy theorists and far-right people will run away with it, and with some justification, because you seem to be intent on whitewashing the man! I've been editing wikipedia on and off for years, and I've never had a comment of mine removed from the TALK PAGE just for the sin of mentioning a rumor, that I explicitly marked as a rumor and even debunked in the same sentence! 46.109.77.155 (talk) 05:41, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Which part of the WP:BDP policy you mentioned applies to comments in talk pages, according to you? It seems to be about "articles". 46.109.77.155 (talk) 05:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

See the top of that WP:BLP page: Editors must take particular care when adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page.—Bagumba (talk) 06:17, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

He's not a living person. Obviously you've put together the strictest definitions from different parts of the policy to deduce that "the editor can do what he wants" and "talk page posts need to be sourced". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.109.77.155 (talk) 06:32, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

"... because you seem to be intent on whitewashing the man": See WP:NOTFORUM. If you said it's a rumor, and you "debunked" it (, and it was unsourced), this conversation should be over.—Bagumba (talk) 06:24, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Well you tell that to Steven Crowder who's running away with the <REDACTED> and <REDACTED> version of the story because there's no one debunking it, no one even touching the story with a very long stick. 46.109.77.155 (talk) 06:34, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Valereee Did you mistake me for the OP here? If not, I didn't mean to imply that the DM* claims could never be supported by an RS. For clarification, I mean the policy about the Daily Mail has been effected by others and it's not for me to make or change it. Given OP was trying to convince me to disapply the policy. Perennial Student (talk) 04:28, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

It is a very sad state of affairs if information clearly appearing in court documents is excluded because copies of these documents appeared in a publication that is not considered reliable - even through there is no dispute about reliability of the said information. - BorisG (talk) 13:48, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@BorisG: Per WP:ONUS, we don't automatically include everything because it's true. It's all subject to consensus.—Bagumba (talk) 13:52, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

More sources confirming George Floyd had criminal record:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52871936

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/05/remembering-george-floyd-devoted-father-gentle-giant-200531070908430.html

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/george-floyd-family-police-video-death-minneapolis-15298275.php

https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-nw-george-floyd-biography-20200528-y3l67rrmfnb3dh4x3i5iipneq4-story.html Cherubic (talk) 16:57, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

The article avoids saying he actual did or committed or was convicted of any crimes. It says he was "arrested", "charged", and "took a plea deal". He was convicted of something serious if he spent 5 years in prison, even if he did a plea deal. I could not find what the Wikipedia policy is--some articles on criminals flatly state they robbed a bank or murdered (Charles Manson, Brenden Abbott), others (Bill Cosby) just say he was found guilty. Is there a reason I should not add that he was convicted? - Ttulinsky (talk) 06:14, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

This is censorship supported by an exuberant amount of wikilawyering. In an unbiased encyclopedia, this article should have started with 'George Floyd was an American criminal, and was killed when being arrested for etc., etc. - BorisG (talk) 13:54, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 June 2020

In Biography section, end of paragraph 2, after the words Resurrection Houston. I suggest the following changes: Firstly, delete period and replace with comma and then write "whose Mission is to raise disciples for Jesus in the heart of the city in order to change the community." I believe this adds informative flavour as to the nature of the Ministry that Mr Floyd was involved with in Houston. My source is the Ministry's website. Bahern70 (talk) 08:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: @Bahern70: Can you provide an independent, reliable source, preferably one that deals with Floyd? We want to avoid being promotional or putting WP:UNDUE weight on the church relative to his life.—Bagumba (talk) 09:06, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

References

Overall balance

This article, while of questionable noteworthiness as raised above, reads as a contrived "apologia" for the victim, emphasising his supposed positive traits selectively. Sentences like "He was a good father to his children" evoke the tone of a funeral eulogy rather than an article that lives up to Wiki standards, particularly as it is truncated from the source, where it says "while he was around". For people working with the social fallout from broken families, this grates as a rather insulting whitewash of problematic male behaviour. 158.169.40.8 (talk) 10:05, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I took "while he was around" to mean until he died. For your interpretation, it seems like "if", "when" or "whenever" would have been used instead of "while". FWIW, I added another source where the mother of one of his children called him a "good father".—Bagumba (talk) 10:36, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

This is precisely what I mean. You seem to be editing this article not from an impartial point of view, but to support your agenda, in this case, to use the victim for furthering a particular reading of the events surrounding his death. "Attractive", "good father", etc. have no place in a Wiki article, at least not in the context wherein they are used here. 158.169.40.8 (talk) 12:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Sure, Sherlock.—Bagumba (talk) 02:50, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Can someone explain how this line made it in? ["attractive", "good"]

"While with Screwed Up Click, Floyd met attractive women and had children with a few of them. He was a good father to his five children," — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.139.10.40 (talk) 11:23, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello, I just wanted to create a topic about this sentences. I think the "attractive" should be dropped (irrelevant), and I have some doubts about "good father" - don't we assume usually that a father is a good father? Ziko (talk) 11:34, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree, since it violates WP:PUFF. Lammbda (talk) 11:51, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@Ziko: ... don't we assume usually that a father is a good father To the contrary, there's probably a stereotype that an African-American man with children by multiple women is probably an absent father. For example, see above at #Overall balance.—Bagumba (talk) 12:28, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

It's sourced to an obituary in The Economist. It's normal for obituaries to speak in warm and glowing terms of the recently deceased, hence the puffed aspect. But it's really not a suitable writing style for content in Wikipedia's voice, and readers will notice that (hence the IP's comment). I'd suggest either rephrasing to avoid the puff, or just attributing it to the obituary, which readers will understand then in context. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 12:44, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

It's not a paid obituary, and The Ecomomist check out at WP:RS/P.—Bagumba (talk) 13:06, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

In case there's confusion, I was suggesting attributing it in the context of being an obituary, not attributing it in the context of being from The Economist. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 14:40, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Well, I think I understand both of your points of view. Maybe there is a meaningful way to quote someone specifically on the "good father" statement? / And do we agree that "attractive" is here not useful, or irrelevant, or maybe even inappropriate? Ziko (talk) 12:57, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I have removed all such crap. How did that ever find its way into Wikipedia? WWGB (talk) 13:01, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Re: "attractive": Groupies are a known phenomena in the music scene. If it's verifiable that he lived a "fast" lifestyle, I'm not troubled by it.—Bagumba (talk) 13:06, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello, I am not okay with words such as "crap" on a talk page. / About "attractive": what would be the meaning behind this statement with regard to Mr. Floyd? Ziko (talk) 13:15, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

You can reply to the first word under the other person's comment LOL. Re: the second, it's fine if it's deemed too racy.—Bagumba (talk) 13:46, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

General Organization of all Related George Floyd Pages

Logically, this page should be the head page for all George Floyd, including his killing and the protests that ensued. The contents of the pages on his killing [Killing of George Floyd]] should should be included here and that page deleted. On the other hand, the page on the protests [[George Floyd protests is probably too long to be included and should be linked to from this article. Abelian (talk) 12:01, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@Abelian: There is an existing merge disussion at Talk:Killing_of_George_Floyd#Proposed_merge_of_George_Floyd_into_Killing_of_George_Floyd, where you can comment on this topic.—Bagumba (talk) 12:35, 5 June 2020 (UTC).

@Bagumba: This proposal is for the merge in the opposite direction. Logically this should be THE head page. If your remark is that I add my suggestion to the other talk pages, I am happy to do so.. Please note though that I observed that the protest page is probably too long to be merged into this page, but the page on the killing may be merged here. This seemed the appropriate page to make the merge suggestion. Abelian (talk) 22

• 20, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

George Floyd is at least as notable as the Black Dahlia [[Black Dahlia | Elizabeth Short] who was an un-notable 22 year old woman, prior to her death. Abelian (talk) 12:06, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

George Floyd is also notable both nationally and internationally.

• The international protests seem seem largely apolitical being focused primarily on police brutality.
• The local, state and US national[ protests are partly political as testified to partly by the protests in front of the White House.
  • Many white Americans, particularly conservatives, assumed that the deaths of black men at the hands of police, were isolated incidents (source: host Joe Scarborough and other hosts, guests and commentators, June 5, 2020)
  • On the other hand, the loose umbrella organization Black Lives Matter maintains that the problem is systemic and needs to be addressed both politically and legislatively.

Abelian (talk) 12:27, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

The legislative issue in the US at the national level, is the doctrine of Qualified Immunity advanced by the US Supreme Court in 1967, which has made prosecuting law enforcement officers more difficult.

Abelian (talk) 12:49, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Qualified ImmunityAbelian (talk) 13:53, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Ttulinsky (talk) 03:36, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Qualified Immunity makes civil suits for damages more difficult, not criminal prosecution. See Wikipedia article and https://theappeal.org/qualified-immunity-explained/.

@Ttulinsky: See the wikipedia page on the increasing use of the Qualified immunity in cases of Police brutality or excessive force. Abelian (talk) 22:09, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 June 2020

Please add the following to the biography section: George Floyd performed in adult films with actresses Kimberly Brinks and Nelli Tiger on the adult film channel The Habib Show.[1] DanielleBoshwell (talk) 14:39, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

That is a rather obscure source. We need something from reliable mainstream sources. WWGB (talk) 14:41, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

"George Floyd (killed African-American)" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect George Floyd (killed African-American). The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 June 5#George Floyd (killed African-American) until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 15:56, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

George Floyd criminal record

In 2007, Floyd was charged with armed robbery in a home invasion in Houston, in which another man posed as a water department worker in an attempt to gain access to a woman’s residence, according to court documents.

When the woman realized he wasn’t actually a water department worker, she tried to close the door. That’s when five other men got out of a car that had just pulled up and forced their way inside.

According to charging documents, the largest man in the group, whom the victim identified as Floyd, “forced his way inside the residence, placed a pistol against the complainant’s abdomen, and forced her into the living room area of the residence.”

Floyd in 2009 was sentenced to five years in prison as part of a plea deal in the case.; Cherubic (talk) 17:20, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

References

Agreed. I think now we have enough sources to include that, perhaps as its own separate section. What do others think?

Cheers,Λuα ^{(Operibus anteire)} 03:08, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Additionally, those documents also seem to mention that there was a 1 year old child in the home at the time, at least I think that's what the abbreviation "1 yoa" ("years of age") means. Perhaps someone can correct me on that? 46.109.77.155 (talk) 22:59, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

George Floyd a film actor

Hello,

I'm new here. So I can't edit the page, I think because of the "political reasons" it was closed/(semi-protected). Please add this information to occupation and to biography, that he was a pornographic film actor.

Sources: "iHarare Media" is Zimbabwe's newspaper - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_of_Zimbabwe : https://iharare.com/george-floyd-was-a-porn-star/

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUVtrcXt2vo

I will not add "XXX" content into here. It's very easy to find it on Google. Search: George Floyd porn Kimberly Brinks

People should know the truth. Thank you, — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maksimiuk (talk • contribs) 17:52, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

It seems WP:NPF and WP:AVOIDVICTIM apply. Plus, we don't have a reliable source for the fact. Will let a more experienced editor deal with this, though. Perennial Student (talk) 19:19, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

WP:NPF is not consistent with a dedicated bio existing. It's either one or the other, which presumably the merge discussion will resolve.—Bagumba (talk) 04:04, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

 Administrator note unless it receives widespread mention by reliable sources, I am deeming this addition to be a BLP violation. In fact, I had already revdeleted it from the article earlier today on those grounds. I won't remove this article talk page section for the simple reason that I predict the matter will be brought up again anyway (so in that sense, to avoid a timesink). But unless the aforementioned conditions are met, further unsourced or poorly-sourced mention of this are prohibited and will be summarily removed henceforth. El_C 19:34, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 June 2020

File:George Floyd Mural Minneapolis

Vasanthtcs (talk) 06:32, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. Unclear request. El_C 10:25, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

No, George Floyd needs his own article

Emmet Till has; Rodney King has; and George Floyd could be even more historically important.Bashereyre (talk) 19:13, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Cause of death

His cause of death is obviously notable for the infobox, but what exactly is his cause of death? There are 2 autopsies reports that say separate things. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 19:47, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Death by sociopath? EEng 20:05, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• The George Floyd mural outside Cup Foods at Chicago Ave and E 38th St in Minneapolis, Minnesota.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:23, 6 June 2020 (UTC)