Talk:Woody Allen

minor copy edit

"in which he starred as a Leonard Zelig, man who has the ability to transform his appearance to that of the people who surround him.[72]" can someone with edit move the a from "as a Leonard" to ", a man who"?

The sexual assault allegations should be in the lead too

Woody Allen sexual assault allegations have their own article, I'm sure they should be prominently displayed in the lead, not tucked away in personal life section and hard to find. The fact that it isn't in the lead gives me the impression that the article has been "sanitized", but I haven't looked at the history to make sure. I would have done this myself, but it looks like the article has good amount of activitiy, so I'll leave the decision to whoever the main editor is. TryKid (talk) 20:29, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Traditionally allegations are used in lead paragraphs if they are a) proven, or b) are in mass number. Given that this is a one-to-one case with an outcome of an innocent verdict, the two options would be to not include it all, or include it with equal emphasis put on the verdict. I won't fight the community decision, but I lean toward the former.

I think the latter is far more rational. By all means mention the verdict about the accusations. It should still be mentioned. Kkollaps (talk) 00:54, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

An RfC from 2018 closed with consensus not to include.LM2000 (talk) 08:03, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

I concur with TryKid that the assault allegations need to at least be mentioned in the lead. Substantiated or not, they're widely known and referenced, and they are essential to even a rudimentary understanding of Allen's career and place within pop culture. Leaving them completely out of the lead is simply inadequate. I'd prefer to leave this to the main editor here, but it needs to be done. Mr Subtlety (talk) 14:44, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

: I agree with the above statement, but has a consensus been reached? I can merge it into the lead section unless the main editor wants to do it. [[User:Bettydaisies|bettydaisies] —Preceding undated comment added 22:52, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm unaware at how large a consensus there needs to be to override an old consensus, all I know is that if the allegations are put in the lead, it would be necessary for the not guilty verdict to be there as well (and if Dylan Farrow's recurring allegations are mentioned, so must Moses Farrow's testimony, etc.). In the interest of balance. YouCanDoBetter (talk) 00:45, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Oppose including in lead"" that said fell free to start a new RfC.--Moxy 🍁 01:24, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Personally, I know people have multiple opinions regarding the allegations themselves, but it undoubtedly affected his career, as well as his public image. bettydaisies

Support including in lead. Yup, they should obviously be mentioned in the lead, especially given how hagiographic and laudatory it currently is—almost as if past editors have tried to cram it so full of information that we’d forget the biggest story of his late career, an allegation that has been supported by a famous actress (Mia) and an award-winning investigative journalist on sexual assault (Ronan), no less, as if this isn’t significant or newsworthy. That RFC was also from 3 years ago—yet just about all the media attention he's gotten since then has mentioned or focused on this story. Kkollaps (talk) 00:49, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Oppose including in lead Anyone can accuse anyone else of anything, and the fact is Allen was cleared of any wrongdoing by at least three agencies in two different states, New York and Connecticut. And not only are the allegations not what he is notable for — he was and is long notable as a comedian and filmmaker — but we'd run afoul of both WP:UNDUE and WP:BLPCRIME by including unproven allegations it in the lead.--Tenebrae (talk) 19:12, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Also, I just saw that, as a previous editor mentioned, a 2018 RfC found consensus not to include allegations in the lead. A discussion alone can't overturn RfC consensus: There would need to be a new RfC.--Tenebrae (talk) 19:14, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Support including in lead Obviously. Dude can barely work in the US anymore (distribution problems, several previous actors ended giving up their salaries, contracts revoked) and every news article that comes out about him mentions it prominently. But good luck fighting fan bias and PR folks here. Gripdamage (talk) 19:07, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

This update will probably need another RFC, but let's wait until the release of that new 4-part HBO documentary (Allen v. Farrow) coming out soon about the allegations, which earlier reviewers are calling devastating. It'll prompt yet another undeniable round of media coverage about the topic and make it more difficult for the fanboys to justify repressing that information from the lead on their shaky Wiki technicalities. Kkollaps (talk) 20:15, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

I would add that it's extremely strange and suspicious that there is no section on Allen's personal life in the lead at all—his marriages, relationships, divorces, children, very public custody battles, etc. Just incredibly weird and sanitized. Kkollaps (talk) 18:42, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Of course topics significant enough to have their own daughter pages should be in the lead. Even if there was no daughter page it would appear to be one of the most notable aspects of the subject’s life based on coverage in reliable sources. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:17, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

• Support inclusion. I felt that the allegations were WP:DUE back in 2018, and the changing cultural narrative around Allen since then makes it all the more clear. Let's please not get stuck in an outdated status quo and fall behind the curve on this one. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:36, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose inclusion. Much of the support here seems to be based upon one very recent extremely biased documentary. The aftermath of one bad relationship choice (Mia) and its seemly endless biased discussion isn't the type of information appropriate for a biographical lede. | Uncle Milty | talk | 11:34, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

• Support inclusion. A sentence or two is warranted. I'm surprised there is split opinion on this. It is clearly warranted, and was even before the Allen v. Farrow documentary. He does indeed have a long career, but the lengthy battle with Farrow has generated extensive coverage in reliable sources and cannot be ignored in the lead. This should really be an RfC by the way. Coretheapple (talk) 16:26, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

• I have taken the liberty of commencing an RfC at the bottom of this talk page. I suggest that further input go there, and that persons who have commented above reiterate their views in the RfC. Coretheapple (talk) 16:38, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Theatre / Playwright

There’s a lot of overlap between these sections. Should they be merged? MarylandGeoffrey (talk) 12:34, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Number of children

Someone just put "5" in the infobox. I'm seeing Dylan and Ronan, and he adopted 2 girls with Soon-Yi. I'm not seeing a fifth in this article. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:39, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Moses. Mo Billings (talk) 04:23, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

RfC: Inclusion of sexual assault allegation in the lead

Should a reference to the Woody Allen sexual assault allegation be included in the lead section? A discussion on inclusion in the lead was commenced a year ago without result, and I think community input is desirable. Please note that the current version of the article does not contain a reference to the abuse allegation anywhere in the lead section. There was an RfC in 2018 on inclusion in the lead paragraph not the lead section, with a consensus finding it should not be included in the first paragraph. Coretheapple (talk) 16:37, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

• Support. What I am proposing here is to include a reference in the lead section, where it is currently not mentioned. The 2018 RfC was worded narrowly and I do not believe it established a consensus for exclusion from the lead section. In any event, circumstances have changed. A documentary, Allen v. Farrow, has rekindled the issue and resulted in renewed coverage in reliable sources. Whatever one thinks of the documentary, it definitely has increased coverage of the allegation in reliable sources and mandates inclusion in the lead in my opinion. Not the lead paragraph, but the lead section. Coretheapple (talk) 16:40, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
• Support per the argument I made in the section above and because its by far one of the most notable things about the subject. Arguments against appear to either be personal or no longer relevant given the shift in coverage over the last decade. I understand that as with for example Michael Jackson or Bill Cosby the figure is genuinely beloved and some people take this extremely personally but that does not mean we should edit any differently. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:30, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
• Support in the lede, but not the first paragraph. Considering that it is discussed in this article and has received significant covergae by reliable sources, a mention is warranted. However, it should be (obviously) hedged and carefully worded. ~ HAL333 00:37, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
• Conditional Support It would look weird all alone, especially right now, of all times. But his entire (publicly known) personal life is in the body. If it were summarized up top like his Works and Awards sections rightly are, this would fit nicely there. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:00, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
• Support Per the above discussion.Sea Ane (talk) 16:28, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
• Support including in lead. He can barely work in the US anymore as the thing the article says without equivication he is (distribution problems, several previous actors ended giving up their salaries, contracts revoked) and every news article that comes out about him mentions it prominently. Meanwhile, we just repeat he's a "treasure of the cinema". The contrast between how he is discussed in other media and here is stark and strange Gripdamage (talk) 12:34, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

  The reference shouldn't say the accusations were made by Mia. The story at the time and now is that they were made by Dylan and Dylan continues to make them. Attributing them to Mia seems like POV, weasely, misrepresentation. I can point you to videos of Dylan making them as a child and as an adult. Where is the evidence of higher weight than that, that Mia is the originator of these? How is it that Dylan's mother supports her more notable than that Dylan makes the accusations herself? As an adult woman Dylan is telling her own biographical story and says she was at that time, and it is giving undue weight to Woody Allen's accusations of manipulation by Mia to not attribute them to Dylan despite contemporaneous video and modern interviews of her being the one making the accusations. Gripdamage (talk) 17:49, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

• Strong Support per most above 00the0 (talk) 05:27, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
• I've taken the liberty of adding a brief reference to the sexual abuse allegation to the bottom of the lead section; I think it's clear at this point that there is a clear consensus in favor of adding. Coretheapple (talk) 14:57, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

  If you do things like that in the middle of an RfC about the matter, you're apt to generate WP:DRAMA.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:56, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Pretty much unanimous still, so I'm not worried Hamlet will appear on the stage. Coretheapple (talk) 15:29, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

• Support for including in the lede. Demonstrably one of the most notable and discussed aspects of his biography. Plenty of RSs for this. There is a dedicated section on this in the body and even an entire article (Woody Allen sexual abuse allegation) that is almost as big as this one, so it seems really weird to me not to include it in the lede. PraiseVivec (talk) 15:15, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
• Support for including, perhaps along with a summary of the subsequent effect on his career, distribution, etc. Kkollaps (talk) 01:54, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
• Support It is fairly clear that his page has been intentionally edited to shield him as much as possible(a look at the edit history makes that abundantly clear). The lead has been overbloated with achievements while avoiding anything that would lead back to the allegation (eg while there is mention of Diane Keaton as a partner and collaborator the same is not true of Mia Farrow, also there is no mention of Soon-Yi). Maybe an editor/writer better than myself can look how to trim down the excess while painting a more rounded picture of the person Roan Asher (talk) 11:15, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
• Support I added context to his professional and personal relationship with Mia Farrow, along with Allen's personal relationship with Soon-Yi and the 1992 abuse allegation. I refrained from going too deep in the weeds as it can get complicated very fast in terms of possible recent repercussions and actors responses as the issue seems divisive among them. More can be written in rest of the article rather than overstuff the lede. I made it flow with the article in a clear and concise manner so that it isn't confusing to readers. The One I Left (talk) 00:39, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
• Support The allegations have their own section they are among the most important contents in the article thus satisfy WP:LEAD. Biko2311 (talk) 19:18, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
• Conditional support per InedibleHulk. The purpose of a lead section is to WP:DULY summarize the key points of the entire article.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:56, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
• Support. Among other things, the topic has gotten far more coverage since 2018 (and it's reasonably clear that it's a WP:SUSTAINED part of his notability, with a major impact on his life and career), so it's hard to see how it can be omitted entirely from the lead. --Aquillion (talk) 12:48, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - in the lead, it's just fine where it's at in the body of the article. His notability does not derive from these unfounded allegations, no matter how many times they are repeated, and these allegations don't appear to have destroyed his career. Isaidnoway (talk) 23:18, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
• Support. Mentioning the HBO documentary in the lead would not be WP:DUE but the allegations themselves are. The allegations against Michael Jackson are also mentioned in the lead of his article. I don't see why Allen should be treated differently. Since these allegations were made while Allen is alive and are still affecting his life they should be mentioned in the lead. Guitarjunkie22 (talk) 11:25, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
• Support, per the "Support votes" above. Idealigic (talk) 22:53, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support MOS:LEAD provides clear guidance, the lead proportionally summarizes the body. There's a three paragraph section dedicated to the incident in the body so a mention in the lead is clearly appropriate. It should not go in the first paragraph, and this is a long article with a lot to summarize so be careful to appropriately weight it and keep it reasonably brief. 2A03:F80:32:194:71:227:81:1 (talk) 03:46, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 March 2021

Because of this edit [1] the Italic text parts of the lead below are duplicative...

…Critics have called his work from the 1980s his most developed period. His films include Zelig (1983), Broadway Danny Rose (1984), The Purple Rose of Cairo (1985), Hannah and Her Sisters (1986), Radio Days (1987), Another Woman (1988), and Crimes and Misdemeanors (1989). Many of his 21st-century films, including Match Point (2005), Vicky Cristina Barcelona (2008), and Midnight in Paris (2011), are set in Europe. Blue Jasmine (2013) and Cafe Society (2016) are set in New York City and San Francisco.

In 1979, Allen began a professional and personal relationship with actress Mia Farrow and over a decade-long period collaborated in 13 films, beginning with A Midsummer Night's Sex Comedy (1982) and continuing with Zelig (1983), Broadway Danny Rose (1984), The Purple Rose of Cairo (1985), Hannah and Her Sisters (1986), Crimes and Misdemeanors (1989) and Alice (1990). They separated after Allen… Roan Asher (talk) 15:12, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Agree that the names are duplicated, but they make a different point. So you raise a valid issue here, not sure how to deal with it. Do you have a specific suggestion on how to change this? Coretheapple (talk) 15:31, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

 Done I think you raise a valid point, and also there is an undue weight problem re having so much detail on the relationship with Farrow, imo. But if someone wishes to revert I won't object. Coretheapple (talk) 17:18, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

• I suggest that editors examine the paragraph of the lead in question and weigh whether, prior to my edit, it contained excessive text re Farrow (such as naming quite a few of their films together) and going into the Soon-Yi matter. I took that out too, but one could argue that it belongs. I'm on the fence on that part, but I removed as it seemed a bit extraneous. Coretheapple (talk) 17:22, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

I was thinking it over, maybe this edit would be decent:

…Critics have called his work from the 1980s his most developed period. Allen's films during this time include Zelig (1983), Broadway Danny Rose (1984), The Purple Rose of Cairo (1985), Hannah and Her Sisters (1986), Radio Days (1987), Another Woman (1988), and Crimes and Misdemeanors (1989).

In 1979, Allen began a professional and personal relationship with actress Mia Farrow, over the period of of which they collaborated on 13 films. Husbands and Wives (1992) marked Farrow's final collaboration with Allen, as the pair separated shortly after the filming finished. On August 1992 Allen sued Farrow for custody of their biological son, Satchel and their adopted children Moses and Dylan. Four days later he made public his relationship with Mia and Andre Previn's adopted daughter Soon-Yi Previn. The Connecticut State Police announce they were investigating Mr. Allen under allegation that he had sexually abused the seven-year-old Dylan, the same day.

The allegation gained substantive media attention, but Allen was never charged or prosecuted, and vigorously denied the charge. While public opinion was originally split, Hollywood and the New York film scene was at first on his side, but working in the US became harder for him. As a result many of his 21st-century films, including Match Point (2005), Vicky Cristina Barcelona (2008), and Midnight in Paris (2011), are set and filmed in Europe. The allegations resurfaced after Allen won the Golden Globe Cecil B. DeMille Award and once again in 2017 in the wake of the #MeToo movement.

IDK, it might be a bit much, but considering the publicity and longevity of the allegations, the effect it has had on his career, and the overwhelming support for its inclusion in the RfC, I think it's serviceable. Feel free to trim it down and add any necessary references(I'm not that good at this part…) Roan Asher (talk) 02:29, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm closing the request as the page is no longer protected. Thanks. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:32, 30 March 2021 (UTC)