Talk:Halloween

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Synopsis inaccurately depicts Halloween's origin

This article heavily promotes Samhain as being Halloween's origin, when Calan Gaeaf (or Ysbrydnos) has been observed within Britain long before Anglo-Saxons arrived, and the only reason Samhain is given the platform is because Irish identity is incredibly strong in America (Where modern Halloween developed from), whereas Welsh identity is almost non-exsistent, so you have far more historians delve into Samhain because they latch onto the same research which always neglects Calan Gaeaf.. Calan Gaeaf in the article is left as a mere footnote, like a side-thought, an irrelevant part of Halloween, when it should be given the same attention as Samhain is given. Not only is this article bias towards Goidelic, the more experienced editors also discourage other editors from giving Calan Gaeaf an equal representation, my only wish in the future is that AI can read through all the 'Talk' pages throughout the site and edit wikipedia, adding such information and over-riding the editors who argue against adding it, only then will wiki pages be accurate, true and unbias.Hogyncymru (talk) 20:15, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Input suggestion - The Irish origin of Halloween/Samhain with cited source

According to Irish folklore, the historical site of Oweynagat, a cave in the town-land of Rathcroghan, County Roscommon, has been known to have been a 'portal to hell'. Folklore claims this site is where 'mythical monsters and spirits' of the dead went to the 'other world' to enter the land of the living. It has been thought that this is the place where the pagan festival Samhain originated.</ref>

Semi-protected edit request on 18 April 2021

Halloween is not originally of Christian origin but of pagan. It was originally a festival where according to Irish folklore the barrier between the world of the living and dead was weakest and Púcas, banshees and faeries could cross over. This led to the people dressing up as monsters to scare away these beings. Back then the festival was known as Samhain. It was then christianised like many other irish traditions. When many of the Irish were forced to emigrate they brought there traditions with then to America where it was then Americanised into the holiday we know today 185.213.132.82 (talk) 18:09, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:18, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 23:29, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that for his composition Hallowe'en, Charles Ives supplied two programs of how to repeat the music in different tempo and dynamics? Source: [1]

• Reviewed: L. D. Reynolds

Created/expanded by Ron Oliver (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 14:54, 26 July 2021 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:00, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Awkward sentence about "monsters"

"supernatural figures such as vampires, monsters, ghosts, skeletons, witches, and devils." It can be argued that "monsters" is tautological in that list, since every other entry in it may qualify as a "monster" in the common sense. The sentence is also not present in the linked source, which more correctly states, "Along with skeletons and black cats, the holiday has incorporated scary beings such as ghosts, witches, and vampires". Furthermore, "witches" aren't necessary supernatural. Kumagoro-42 (talk) 03:08, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Made changes per your comment, thanks @Kumagoro-42: for being observant and careful about detail and nuance. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:47, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

That's great Dinginto (talk) 17:41, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 October 2021

Add to the introductory paragraph: "Halloween, however, is celebrated in Kilmarnock (Scotland) on the last Friday of the month. Locally this is known as Killieween. The reasons for the difference are widely debated within the community but the difference is a point of pride within the town." Source: https://www.scotsman.com/regions/glasgow-and-strathclyde/why-one-town-scotland-celebrates-halloween-today-1404215%3famp

https://offtherecordblog.org/2020/10/30/the-origins-of-killieween-by-lilian-anderson/ 95.147.63.170 (talk) 23:16, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: The lead is to summarize the article. We don't add pieces of trivia. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:26, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Unbalanced on pagan origins

I noticed the article states in the lead that some scholars hold that Samhain may have been Christianized as All Hallow's Day, along with its eve, by the early Church.[16] Other academics believe, however, that Halloween began solely as a Christian holiday, being the vigil of All Hallow's Day.[17][18][19][20].

And yet this dispute is not given in the body of the article, which seems to suggest pagan influence uncritically. It even qoutes Hutton (1996, 363) identifies Rhys as a key figure who, along with another Oxbridge academic, James Frazer, romanticised the notion of Samhain and exaggerated its influence on Halloween, but Hutten is cited throughout the "Gaelic influence" section. LittleJerry (talk) 10:27, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

The Samhain page is well sourced as to its pagan origin, date, etc. Randy Kryn (talk) 10:45, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

That's Samhain, not Halloween. And how can we say these are pagan when may of the traditions mentioned date to post-Christian times? Several of the traditions mentioned in the "Gaelic influence" are post-Christian. LittleJerry (talk) 11:30, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

User:LittleJerry is correct as historians now teach that the traditions of Halloween (All Hallow's Eve) are rooted in Christianity. Perhaps the section on "Gaelic influence" could have a couple sentences that the supposed pagan origins are unlikely. The section on "Christian influences" could also be placed first, above the "Gaelic influences" section. User:LittleJerry, if you have any suggestions for such a sentence, feel free to add it in the article and make the changes. With regards, Anupam^Talk 21:02, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

I would recommend that only the first paragraph of the Gaelic section be kept and then add in statements by those disputing the pagan influence (such as the statements in [17] [18] [19] [20]). LittleJerry (talk) 21:20, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

So it doesn't bother anybody that Hutton is being cited for pagan influence even though that is not what he believes? LittleJerry (talk) 11:32, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

I went ahead and made the changes. This seems to have a problem for a long time and certain people stubbornly refuse to admit and continue to push the Samhain narrative. LittleJerry (talk) 17:04, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

But the section isn't even about "Pagan influence", and it doesn't claim to be. The first line explains, it's about the influence of Gaelic and Welsh folk customs. Many of those customs probably date to Pagan times, but they weren't written about until Christianity arrived, because Christianity and writing arrived in those countries at the same time. Festivals like Samhain continued to be celebrated centuries after this. But it's neither wholly Pagan nor Christian - it's a seasonal folk festival. The article doesn't call Samhain a "pagan festival" and the word "pagan" only crops up twice in the whole section. The second section then is about the influence of "Christian dogma and practices derived from it", especially outside the Celtic regions. ~Asarlaí 18:04, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Asarlaí but the idea that Samhain influenced Halloween is disputed and you're giving it undue weight. The whole section is on Samhain. LittleJerry (talk) 20:04, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

As I said above, the Samhain article is well-sourced, including about topics being discussed here. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:19, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

You can't just say "well sourced" if the sources are outdated. LittleJerry (talk) 03:33, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Randy Kryn, please stop knee-jerk reverting my edits. As I stated, the historical field is constantly changing and early 20th century and older sources are not acceptable. LittleJerry (talk) 03:37, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Please get consensus for your large edits, in detail, as much of what you are changing are well-respected and accepted sources. Maybe notify some Wikiprojects and have a full discussion in order to obtain your consensus, thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:41, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

LittleJerry, you say it's not acceptable to reference older sources and people you don't deem to be scholars, yet you haven't removed any of these from the 'Christian influence' section. That section has several older and non-academic sources. A lot of them are also very vague about dates and locations, if they're given at all. As Randy Kryn said, the Samhain article is well-sourced. ~Asarlaí 15:42, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

In Australia

Halloween here in Oz has degenerated into the same thing as Christmas and Easter. It is a heavily advertised excuse for retailers to sell cheap rubbish, priced to that it may be immediately discarded.

History edit request

The historical information provided is mixed up, The tradition originated with the ancient Celtic festival of Samhain, when people would light bonfires and wear costumes to ward off ghosts. In the eighth century, Pope Gregory III designated November 1 as a time to honor all saints. Soon, All Saints Day incorporated some of the traditions of Samhain. The evening before was known as All Hallows Eve, and later Halloween. the Celtics were the first to bring on the customs of Halloween, not Christianity. The information provided under "History" - the title "Gaelic influence" should be revised as "Gaelic origins" along with it's information should come first and the title "Christian origins and historic customs" should be revised as "Christian and historic customs" along with it's information should come right after.

2603:7000:CB01:4B84:C065:6C37:1115:CA4C (talk) 12:53, 31 October 2021 (UTC).

Which 'turnip'?

The article quotes the 'turnip' as the original vegetable carved into a mask-like face at Hallowe'en, a practice popular among Gaelic populations before pumpkin carving​ — which had developed later in the USA — became mainstream. The traditional mask shown in a vignette, however, represents a carved rutabaga, or swede, available in the British Isles for centuries alongside the related 'real' turnip, sometimes known as a white turnip. Confusingly, the rutabaga/swede is commonly termed a turnip or 'neep' in Scotland, and the confusion carries into the article. It is unclear which of these two vegetables was the more popular for carving in the era before pumpkin-carving arrived from America in the late 1970s, with the squash typically fashioned into a lamp containing a lit candle.

History

Ancient Iranian mask

Mask Lorestan Province Iran

There was and still are many ceremonies for commemorating the dead (Festival of the Dead) such as the Pitru Paksha , Bon Festival and Shab-e-barat . In ancient Iran there was a festival to honor the dead that ceremony had changed to the current Shab-e-barat ceremony. discovery of Masks from ancient kelmankera cave in Lorestan Province and from Arrajan the Elam period is another reason for the festival of honoring the dead in ancient time."

 05:08, 5 November 2021 (UTC)