Talk:Race and intelligence

Moved from user talk page

Putting the socks away. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:59, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
You reverted my edit on the article "race and intelligence", explaining it by implying that the edit was based on personal analysis. However, it is the scientific consensus that intelligence is influenced by genetics (hope we both agree on that, so that I don't have to provide citations, but can do if needed) on an individual level. It is then a direct logical implication that the mean level of intelligence in groups of individuals is influenced by genetics - it's just that this influence is smaller by a factor equal to the number of people in the groups (assuming natural intelligence is distributed normally). There is no personal analysis at all. In anticipation of a likely mention of WP:SYN, I will mention WP:SKY. We don't need a citation for the fact that, due to genetic mutations, there is natural variability in not only intelligence but every human trait - the only uncertainty that exists is in the variability of said trait. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 13:16, 19 June 2021 (UTC) The Race and intelligence article has been the subject of considerable controversy. It is currently subject to Discretionary sanctions, and accordingly, making a significant change to the first sentence of the lede without prior discussion is inadvisable. If you wish such a change to be agreed to, you will do best to discuss it on the article talk page, where other contributors will be aware of the discussion. Accordingly, beyond advising you to read the article itself and the article talk page archives, and to read WP:SYN and WP:SKY again more carefully, I'm not going to discuss the matter here. THat is what article talk pages are for. AndyTheGrump (talk) It's funny that you say that "making a significant change to the first sentence of the lede without prior discussion is inadvisable" given the sentence that I made changes to was added as a result of a discussion that I initiated. But okay, noted. Talk page it is. I'm a bit disappointed you didn't actually provide any reasons for why you felt reverting my edit was the best course of action, but I guess someone on the article's talk page will explain. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 15:40, 19 June 2021 (UTC) Andy did, in fact, provide an explanation for his revert. Your assertion to the contrary makes no sense, as the explanation is right there in his edit summary for everyone to read. As for the substance of your edit summary: You should read the FAQ on the article talk page, as it explains exactly why the OR justification you provided is wrong. Your comment about WP:SKY above indicates that you're likely not fully familiar with the subject of race and genetics. Fortunately, the FAQ I mentions provides a brief primer on that, enough info to show that your argument regarding WP:SKY is based on an inaccurate-but-common-among-the-laity belief about genetics and race. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:18, 19 June 2021 (UTC) @MjolnirPants: I'll have you know that I have read the entire FAQ, with all the sources provided in it, from start to finish. I can only assume that you either haven't done the same or have misinterpreted what I'm saying, as, if anything, some of the sources provided support my initial intuition, with none refuting it. Although having read such a large amount of text, I can't hope to find the exact citations, I do recall some of the sources saying something along the lines of "any plausible genetic differences in intelligence between populations are due to the random fluctuations in the intelligence of individuals, and are hence negligible", and "if there are genetic differences between populations, the direction of the mean difference could favor Africans or Europeans with equal likelihood". In fact, this intuition is not only not refuted/supported by these sources, it is also self-evidently true and implied from the clearly established consensus that intelligence on an individual level is influenced by genetics ─ and it would be such even if I was completely unfamiliar with the field of genetics. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 02:17, 20 June 2021 (UTC) I can only assume that you either haven't done the same MjolnirPants literally wrote the FAQ. Leijurv (talk) 03:27, 20 June 2021 (UTC) @Maxipups Mamsipupsovich: Here is a clear explanation as to why your "self-evidently true" supposition is false. It's from the Nature article "Heritability in the genomics era — concepts and misconceptions" (ref #2 under the Heritability of IQ section in the FAQ). In a list of "misconceptions regarding heritability" it lists as false the assumption that "Heritability is informative about the nature of between-group differences" and goes on to explain why in detail: This misconception comes in two forms, and in both cases height and IQ in human populations are good examples. The first misconception is that when the heritability is high, groups that differ greatly in the mean of the trait in question must do so because of genetic differences. The second misconception is that the observation of a shift in the mean of a character over time (when we can discount changes in gene frequencies) for a trait with high heritability is a paradox. For IQ, a large increase in the mean has been observed in numerous populations, and this phenomenon is called the Flynn effect, after its discoverer. The problem with this suggested paradox is that heritability should not be used to make predictions about mean changes in the population over time or about differences between groups, because in each individual calculation the heritability is defined for a particular population and says nothing about environments in other populations. White males born in the United States were the tallest in the world in the mid-19th century and about 9 cm taller than Dutch males. At the end of the 20th century, although the height of males in the United States had increased, many European countries had overtaken them and Dutch males are now approximately 5 cm taller than white US males, a trend that is likely to be environmental rather than genetic in origin. An open-access vrsion of the article is here. I hope that's informative. Generalrelative (talk) 03:34, 20 June 2021 (UTC) Doesn't mean that they read all of the sources cited in the FAQ from start to finish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk • contribs) 13:34, 20 June 2021 (UTC) Oooo, spooky goalposts, moving from one place to another! And new responses go to the bottom and need to be signed. --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:16, 20 June 2021 (UTC) Comment about goalposts struck. I have read the entire FAQ, with all the sources provided in it, from start to finish and I can only assume that you either haven't done the same together show that that was part of the goalposts from the start. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:28, 21 June 2021 (UTC) Augh! I'm caught! I've never read a word of the FAQ. You got me. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 05:51, 20 June 2021 (UTC) Do people really not understand what I'm saying? None of what Generalrelative has cited has anything to do with the point that I'm making. I'll try to put it in different words. Let's say the variance in the genetically determined intelligence of a single person is $\sigma ^{2}$. From the definition of variance, it follows that the variance of a sample mean of a group of people is $\sigma ^{2}/n$, where n is the number of people in the group. Since this variance is non-zero, and since intelligence is a continuous (not discrete) quantity, it is then implied that the probability of two sample means ─ even if taken from the same parent population ─ of being exactly the same is zero. So it is in fact impossible for there not to be any genetic differences between any two groups of people. Once again, this conclusion is trivially true and follows directly from the assumption that intelligence is a continuous quantity. One doesn't need any knowledge in genetics to reach this conclusion. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 12:32, 20 June 2021 (UTC) I think we understand quite well what you're saying. You're saying that for statistical reasons between any two sets of people there will be a genetic difference in average intelligence. For example, let X be the set of people whose last names begin with the odd-numbered letters A,C,E,G,..., and let Y be the set of people whose last names begin with the even-numbered letters B,D,F,H,.... So, according to you, it must be the case that either the X people are genetically superior to the Y people in intelligence, or else the Y people are genetically superior to the X people in intelligence? NightHeron (talk) 13:24, 20 June 2021 (UTC) Terms like "genetically superior" are not very rigorous. In rigorous terms, the average innate/genetic intelligence of the X people is higher than that of the Y people, or vice versa. And that's not according to me ─ that's according to some very basic statistics. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 14:00, 20 June 2021 (UTC) And the fact that what you call "very basic statistics" leads to an absurd, obviously wrong conclusion when applied to NightHeron's example does not bother you? Maybe your understanding af basic statistics is wrong? This happens to people, you know. I think we should just keep using WP:RS instead of your WP:OR. --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:16, 20 June 2021 (UTC) Given that I'm a statistician by profession, yeah, I clearly should book up on basic statistics. Would you be willing to share your immaculate statistical understanding with me? Maybe you can teach me how to, in cases where mathematically provable results contradict our intuition, claim that maths is wrong and that it's our intuition that's right? Is that the secret to statistics that has evaded me for so long? In all seriousness, I'd like to hear why you think my conclusion is "obviously wrong". It seems pretty intuitive. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 14:25, 20 June 2021 (UTC) The result was that the first letter of my last name is genetically connected to my intelligence. Now is the time to tell us what you actually mean by "genetic differences". Is it just the unavoidable statistical fluctuations? Essentially, "different numbers are different"? Measurements of the X and Y IQs yield slightly different numbers, but the difference gets tinier and tinier with increasing sample size? Then, yes, you are right! Everybody here agrees! Clap. Clap. Clap. Or do you mean "genetic differences based on a real, measureable, reproduceable effect with real-life consequences, well outside the white noise"? In that case, you will need more than trivially true statements. --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:43, 20 June 2021 (UTC) The bottom line is that the statement "genetics does explain the intellectual differences between X and Y, and these differences are hence environmental in origin" is a complete falsity. As you said, everybody here agrees with this, right? So then why is this exact statement in the article, and the moment that I tried to change it to make it not trivially false, my edits got immediately reverted? I must be missing something major here. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 14:50, 20 June 2021 (UTC) @Maxipups Mamsipupsovich: Yes, you seem to have gotten the consensus position precisely backwards here. It is as geneticist / neuroscientist Kevin Mitchell says (quoted in the FAQ): "While genetic variation may help to explain why one person is more intelligent than another, there are unlikely to be stable and systematic genetic differences that make one population more intelligent than the next." Assuming that individual genetic differences in intelligence imply the existence of group-level genetic differences in intelligence is a fallacy, which was the point of the bit I quoted for you above. The FAQ cites several other RSs which state this explicitly, so if you've read them all already you should be familiar. Generalrelative (talk) 15:55, 20 June 2021 (UTC) @Generalrelative: As much as like to keep my tone respectful, this is getting a little bit frustrating. Did you bother reading anything that I've written after your initial reply? Clearly I am not advocating that systematic genetic differences are likely. My argument is that random fluctuations in the mean level of intelligence mean that, in any two groups at any given time, the mean level of intelligence will necessarily be different. So, for example, the average genetic difference in IQ between Americans and Nigerians might be 0.001 now; in a couple of generation's time, it might be -0.002; and 200 years ago, it might have been 0.003. For a thousandth time, this statement is not a matter of personal opinion or consensus ─ it's a trivially true fact that is logically implicit from the assumption that genetics influences intelligence at an individual level (which we all agree it does). How can I make my point any clearer? Tell me? Which part of what I said is confusing or ambiguous? Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 16:31, 20 June 2021 (UTC) If what you say is true, it tells us precisely nothing about any relationship between race and intelligence. It is a statement about statistical noise. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:38, 20 June 2021 (UTC) But it does make the statement "genetics does not explain differences in IQ test performance between racial groups, and observed differences are therefore environmental in origin" false. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 16:48, 20 June 2021 (UTC) Wikipedia articles are not an exercise in sophistry. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:54, 20 June 2021 (UTC) @Maxipups Mamsipupsovich: No it does not. Just to unpack a bit: the scientific consensus is that even if such random fluctuations exist they are not detectable by any means that have yet been tried, and therefore they explain nothing (whether even minute fluctuations are likely to exist at all is a matter of controversy among geneticists, but there is strong consensus that current evidence gives no indication what they might be if they do exist). This means that the statement in question –– i.e. "the scientific consensus is that genetics does not explain differences in IQ test performance between racial groups" –– is not a falsity as you claim but rather an accurate description of the case. The bit about "environmental in origin" is summarizing another part of the article's main body. Please refer to WP:NOTSYNTH and MOS:LEAD if you are curious about why these statements are fused into a single sentence in the lead. Generalrelative (talk) 16:53, 20 June 2021 (UTC) In other words, if we haven't detected something, that necessarily implies that this something has no explanatory power. Is this an accurate analysis of what you're saying here? Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 16:59, 20 June 2021 (UTC) @Maxipups Mamsipupsovich: You might think of it this way (leaving out lots of nuance and context for the sake of simplicity): 1) There is a statistically significant observed gap in average IQ test performance between e.g. Black and White Americans. 2) Even the most advanced genetic arguments advanced by racial hereditarians fail to show that White Americans are more likely to enjoy a genetic advantage in IQ than Black Americans; indeed, both groups are equally likely to enjoy such an advantage, if such an advantage does exist, based on all currently available information. [11] Some geneticists, notably David Kaiser, believe that small yet detectable differences in cognitive ability may be found in the future, but crucially even he makes clear that we have absolutely no clue which groups will be found to be genetically favored. [12] Those hereditarians who have claimed to detect a positive signal favoring White people have been roundly debunked on both theoretical and empirical grounds by genetics professionals. 3) Thus, if Black Americans are just as likely to be genetically favored in terms of IQ test performance as White Americans, genetic differences do not explain the observed difference in IQ test performance between these groups. And you don't have to take my word for it. Here's Ewan Birney et al.: "In reality for most traits, including IQ, it is not only unclear that genetic variation explains differences between populations, it is also unlikely." [13] And here's Stephen Ceci and Wendy Williams: "There is an emerging consensus about racial and gender equality in genetic determinants of intelligence; most researchers, including ourselves, agree that genes do not explain between-group differences." [14] 4) Note that this argument runs parallel to another, similar argument about the potential scale of such differences, which all genetics professionals agree must be very small if they do exist, i.e. much smaller than observed group-level differences in IQ test performance. Generalrelative (talk) 18:42, 20 June 2021 (UTC) Maxipups Mamsipupsovich, it's clear to me that you're not doing OR here. Instead, you're discussing an aspect of genetics from the standpoint of statistics and in doing so, missing some important considerations. Your reasoning is sound enough, but you're not following it through before you arrive at a conclusion. You're just working out the statistics and then completely ignoring all the genetics. The bottom line is that the statement "genetics does explain the intellectual differences between X and Y, and these differences are hence environmental in origin" is a complete falsity. Absolutely nothing you have argued here supports this claim, and there is no evidence which supports it, and quite a bit of evidence which (as I've already pointed out) directly contradicts it. My argument is that random fluctuations in the mean level of intelligence mean that, in any two groups at any given time, the mean level of intelligence will necessarily be different. We're all in agreement on that point. The problem is that this article is about the differences between racial groups, not the differences between any arbitrary group. We have to contrast the subject of this article with the expected delta between arbitrary groups in order to stay on topic. Nobody's arguing that the range of human intelligence is not caused by genetics. The research, as well as the consensus of both the scientific community and the Wikipedia community is that the differences between the delta of racial groups and the delta between arbitrary groups is not genetic. Also, for the record, I have, in fact, read and made sure I understood each and every reference used in that FAQ, as well as the large majority of sources used in this article, many of which I have purchased over the past 5 years in order to fully understand the subject. I first read this article believing some very different things about the subject than I now know to be true, and the FAQ is the direct result of the years-long deep dive I took into this. So your continual insistence that I don't understand the FAQ which, again, I wrote is not only a remarkably stupid line of argumentation, it's a violation of our behavioral guidelines to continue to insist that I must not know what I'm talking about if I disagree with you. I strongly advise you to drop it, because all it's accomplishing is reflecting poorly upon your attitude and understanding. Now, I've said my piece. I won't continue to argue with you. It's quite clear that you don't have consensus for your edits. You can accept that, or you can continue to litigate it, which will very quickly become disruptive. I advise you to do the former. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:19, 20 June 2021 (UTC) @MjolnirPants: I'll start off by saying that I appreciate your generally respectful tone. What I appreciate slightly less is your putting words in my mouth and claiming that I not only opined that you don't understand the FAQ, but insisted (!) on this ─ given I have never expressed such a sentiment to begin with (read carefully ─ I said that you either didn't study all the sources in the FAQ or misinterpreted what I was saying; it turns out it was the latter). But that's okay. Anyway, I'm still far from convinced. Since we're all in agreement that at least some (even if a minute amount) of the differences in IQ test performance are genetic, to me, this renders the phrase "observed differences [in IQ test performance] are therefore environmental in origin" at least partially untrue. These observed differences are predominantly or almost entirely environmental, but they can never be 100% such. Equally, genetics (random idiosyncratic genetic mutations) will always explain at least some tiny percentage of these differences. If I may, I'll explain why I'm so fussed about this seemingly insignificant detail. It is already a pretty popular opinion out in the public that, since Wikipedia can be edited by anyone, it can't at all be trusted and is very unreliable ─ it is especially popular among conservatives, whose views often conflict with the scientific consensus and are hence criticised on Wikipedia. The amount of public trust in science (at least among conservatives) is also low. People will routinely say stuff like "those scientists you speak of say nothing became something and exploded, how can you trust those idiots?". For people like that, a single notable case of bad logic is sufficient to sway them from a place of moderate trust in science and a reasonable degree of scepticism towards Wikipedia articles to complete devotion to conspiracy theories/pseudoscience and fanatical rejection of Wikipedia. They'll see the sentence in the lede that I keep referring to and think "wait, but that's literally impossible, those scientists will come up with anything to justify their liberal bias! If they can't even get basic logic right, how could I possibly trust them on matters that involve more complex logic?" ─ or they'll think the same and instead come to the conclusion that it's not the scientists who cannot be trusted but Wikipedia. There's every chance something like this might have already happened ─ likely many times over. I would not at all be surprised to learn that this single sentence has already created thousands of fanatical anti-Wikipediists or subscribers to the idea that IQ differences between populations are mostly genetic. That's why I think we need to be very careful with such strong statements as the one that I'm challenging. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 02:00, 21 June 2021 (UTC) Maxipups Mamsipupsovich, Your logic only works if the group genetic differences are large enough to be observed with an IQ test. If a given test is good to (for example) 3 significant figures, and the genetic difference is somewhere out in the 5th or 6th digit, then it would not contribute to the observed differences. MrOllie (talk) 02:10, 21 June 2021 (UTC) @Maxipups Mamsipupsovich: Are you suggesting as an alternative wording like "Differences large enough to be measurable are entirely environmental in origin" or "Environmental factors explain the entirety of differences that are observable with IQ tests" or some such? Leijurv (talk) 02:45, 21 June 2021 (UTC) you [..] misinterpreted what I was saying is usually followed by a clarification of the obviously ambivalently worded statement that has been misinterpreted. I find your statement we're all in agreement that at least some (even if a minute amount) of the differences in IQ test performance are genetic confusing. The FAQ does not say it is just a minute amount, and Heritability of IQ says IQ differences between individuals have been shown to have a large hereditary component. But you keep omitting the crucial part of the sentence you claim to be false again and again. I highlighted it here: Extensive evidence has been published which indicates that observed differences in IQ test performance between racial groups are environmental in origin. (Unless you mean a different sentence. I cannot tell.) These observed differences are predominantly or almost entirely environmental, but they can never be 100% such Are you really saying the equivalent of "it is false that the earth is round, it is a geoid"? When people misunderstand what I say, I try to say it a different way. And, instead of providing a longish justification talking about the low trust idiots have in Wikipedia because it tells them things they do not want to believe (we already knew that, and there is no way to change that, except turning the idiots into half-idiots), you should rather say exactly what you want to change into what. For that purpose, it is very helpful to use exact quotes instead of paraphrasing. I looked up your reverted changes to the FAQ, but could not find any connection to what you are saying in this section. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:28, 21 June 2021 (UTC) Hob, I advice leaving this. This editor is clearly determined to ignore anything we say. There's a clear consensus here, no point in handing this fellow fresh sticks long after the horse is dead. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:05, 21 June 2021 (UTC) You are probably right. But at least I got a new variation on the dead horse thing out of it: "handing this fellow fresh sticks". --Hob Gadling (talk) 13:25, 21 June 2021 (UTC) "Fresh sticks! Get ya pipin' hot fresh sticks heeya!" ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:38, 21 June 2021 (UTC) @MPants at work: Nice passive aggression there, Mjolnir. It seems like my compliment of your respectful tone came too soon. I don't understand how I could possibly take this as an insult haha. I think it was a good explanation Yeah, clearly I'm determined to ignore everything you say. Because the only way that other people can disagree with you is if they're stubborn douchebags who will never change their minds about anything. Right. I'll just remind you that neither you nor Hob has presented a single coherent argument against my proposal beyond pedantry (like Hob's entire last comment) and unhelpful assumptions (like your accusation of my insisting on you not understanding the FAQ, despite me never having done so). Neither of you have said anything of substance on this thread that I could possibly listen to. The only user who has even attempted to point out flaws in my reasoning is Generalrelative (and even their point, while fair and one I haven't considered, does not adress the crux of my argument, which is that there is a possibility that observed differences in IQ between racial groups are explained in some small part by genetics ─ whether this possibility is certain or has an only 50% chance of being true). Given your suggestion that the horse that is this thread is dead, I am not going to reply to either them or you (or Hob, for that matter), but rest assured that I am willing to listen to anyone who makes a good point and am very happy to change my mind about anything. I still find the fact that even something as overtly obvious as the point that I'm making is being resisted here on Wikipedia a bit ridiculous and, frankly, quite worrying, but oh well. I'll take your advice, accept that controversial topics on Wikipedia will never stop being a problem, and move on. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 14:24, 21 June 2021 (UTC) I see you've decided to add to the list of WP:ASPERSIONS you've been throwing. I, personally, wouldn't take that route, but you go right ahead and see how that works out for you. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:27, 21 June 2021 (UTC) I, personally, wouldn't take that route *Cough* That's *cough* debatable *cough* to say the least *cough*. That's at least as many aspersions as I have ever cast on anyone here on Wikipedia in my one year of editing. I'm sure that if casting aspersions is really an issue, you're in more danger than I am. That said, if you've got any genuine suggestions as to how I can improve as an editor, I'm willing to listen. It would be silly of me not to, given you presumably know this place ─ and how things work around here ─ much better than I do. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 19:26, 21 June 2021 (UTC) lol That's hilarious. Here's a genuine suggestion: Accept that you're wrong. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:11, 21 June 2021 (UTC) Thanks, that's very helpful. I'm sure it's very genuine, too. Just what I have asked for. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 22:13, 21 June 2021 (UTC) References

FAQ edit

More socks. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:34, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I made this edit on the FAQ page, as well as this one. Both edits got immediately reverted by user:NorthBySouthBaranof without explanation; naturally, I asked them for one on the talk page, but they haven't responded yet, and I thought I'd get a quicker response here. The first of my edits addresses the fact that the current version is slightly misleading, as it is written in such a way which is likely to mislead the reader into thinking that IQ is not a valid measure of any form of intelligence (especially by answering the question "doesn't IQ measure intelligence" with "not exactly"). It is generally agreed upon that this is not the case, and that IQ does actually measure some types of intelligence ─ just not all (as is actually explained by one of the sources provided in the FAQ). So my edit cleared up this confusion without changing the character of the answer, which conveys that IQ is not an all-encompassing measure of intelligence. The second edit replaced a dubious, America-centric example of Native Americans having the same features as Europeans (even though their phenotype is arguably more similar to that of East Asians) with a much clearer, more global example of North Indians, who actually came from the same Indo-European population as Europeans, so their connection to Europeans is unmistakable. Do people agree with NBSB's decision to revert both of these edits? Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 12:57, 20 June 2021 (UTC) Your first edit was not an improvement over the earlier text, because how accurately or reliably IQ measures any aspect of intelligence is open to debate. As with other tests, performance on IQ tests depends on many factors other than what the test was designed to measure. We cannot state as a fact that they're "valid and reliable". Your rationale for the second edit is very weak. "America-centrism" was not a problem in the text. The only America reference in the passage is to Native Americans. When people complain of Wikipedia having disproportionate coverage of the US, they're not talking about coverage of the indigenous population that was displaced by European colonialism. NightHeron (talk) 13:13, 20 June 2021 (UTC) I don't think that's true. From the article on IQ, "While IQ tests are generally considered to measure some forms of intelligence, they may fail to serve as an accurate measure of broader definitions of human intelligence inclusive of creativity and social intelligence". And, from one of the sources described in the FAQ as a statement by a group of prominent geneticists, "Critics often assert that it is an oversimplified metric applied to a far-too-complex set of behaviours, that the cultural-specificity of tests renders them useless, or that IQ tests really only measure how good people are at doing IQ tests. Although an IQ score is far from a perfect measure, it does an excellent job of correlating with, and predicting, many educational, occupational, and health-related outcomes. IQ does not tell us everything that anyone could want to know about human intelligence – but because definitions of “intelligence” vary so widely, no measure could possibly meet that challenge". Furthermore, the reliability of IQ tests is known to be very high and is certainly not up to debate. Once again, I direct you to the article on Intelligence quotient, where this is explained in more detail. All in all, that IQ tests are valid and reliable predictors of the types of intelligence associated with e.g. educational attainment and financial success is a well-documented fact that is barely disputable. As to my second edit, I don't really understand why my rationale is weak. Surely it's uncontroversial that North Indians resemble Europeans more than Native Americans do, given that Native Americans descended from Asia, while North Indians descended from the same population as Europeans? That America-centrism wasn't a problem in the text is a sentiment that you have (as an American?), but I, as a non-American, don't share it. Most people outside of the US will not be familiar with what Native Americans look like, while the same cannot be said about North Indians, whose appearance more people around the world are likely to relate to. However, America-centrism wasn't even the main issue that I was addressing ─ that would be the fact that Native Americans really don't have similar features to Europeans, with North Indians being a far closer match. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 14:18, 20 June 2021 (UTC) As to my second edit, I don't really understand why my rationale is weak. Surely it's uncontroversial that North Indians resemble Europeans more than Native Americans do, given that Native Americans descended from Asia, while North Indians descended from the same population as Europeans? Listen, this is not an insult. I'll explain in as much detail as you need if you would like, but this quote right here demonstrates very conclusively that the you just completely missed the point of that answer. The examples were chosen carefully: Yes, North Indians do resemble Europeans in terms of facial structure more than Native Americans, and yes, that's precisely because they're more closely related. But the whole point of the sentence was to show that there's a range a facial features that remains mostly constant across a large swathe of racial groups, which in turn helps illustrate how random and disconnected the traits that define race are. As to your first edit: I don't really have a problem with it. It's accurate enough. It's approaching the answer from a different direction, but it's not a complete 180° turn, so it's not really undermining the overall character of the FAQ. I don't think it's really an improvement mind, but if you prefer it, and you can convince a few other editors to support it, I'll certainly not contest it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:32, 20 June 2021 (UTC) I don't understand how I could possibly take this as an insult haha. I think it was a good explanation. If the point was that, even given completely different genetic lineages, the facial features can still be similar, I can understand why Native Americans are a better fit than North Indians. Although I still think that saying that Native Americans have similar facial features to Europeans a bit of a stretch, and indeed that Generalrelative's aboriginal Australian example is much better (yes, it is also in the FAQ), I understand now why my second edit wasn't helpful. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 02:07, 21 June 2021 (UTC) Although I still think that saying that Native Americans have similar facial features to Europeans a bit of a stretch, As a person of mixed European and Native American ancestry; I disagree, and my family photo albums do, as well. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:06, 21 June 2021 (UTC) (ec) The statement in wikivoice that IQ tests are "valid and reliable" is very misleading without many caveats and qualifications. Given many assumptions about the people taking the tests and the circumstances, perhaps. But that doesn't mean that the statement is true in the real world. It's well known that performance on IQ tests depends on many things not related to cognitive ability, such as whether one is in good health or sick at the time, whether one is well fed or malnourished, whether one had a good night's sleep the night before or suffered from insomnia, whether one is highly motivated to do well (e.g., it's being used to screen candidates for a job) or has no particular motivation to do well, whether one is distracted or able to concentrate, whether the test is given in one's mother tongue or in a 2nd or 3rd language, whether one has had a lot of prior experience taking IQ type tests or whether this is the first multiple-choice test one has ever taken. As far as which racial or population groups have facial appearances close to other groups, I think the point of the FAQ is that this is subjective. Race is a social construct, and people are often classified by self-identification. It's not surprising that there can be disagreement on who looks like whom. A large proportion of the population is of mixed ancestry. Concerning your proposal to replace "Native American" by "North Indian", this is the first I've heard that "North Indian" is a term for a racial group. Do you have RS that use that term in racial classifications? In any case, you haven't made a convincing argument that referring to "Native Americans" is an example of Wikipedia's excessive coverage of the US. NightHeron (talk) 18:00, 20 June 2021 (UTC) Yes and.... Just to throw out another explanatory example: Australian Aboriginal Peoples have notable phenotypic similarities with many Sub-Saharan African Peoples (dark skin, broad noses, curly hair) which are in no way indicative of an especially close phylogenetic relationship. Indeed, Australian Aboriginal Peoples are more closely related to Norwegians phylogenetically than either are to, say, Bantu-speaking populations in Africa. Generalrelative (talk) 18:57, 20 June 2021 (UTC) I think (unless someone changed it) this is even mentioned in the FAQ. Same question, or the next one. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:12, 20 June 2021 (UTC) Just a note that Maxipups Mamsipupsovich has been blocked as a sockpuppet of the banned User:Oldstone James. I've struck his comments; it might be worth going over his edits for anything problematic per WP:BLOCKEVADE. --Aquillion (talk) 16:52, 29 June 2021 (UTC) I'm shocked, I tell you. Not by the fact that a sockpuppet decided to try to make sweeping changes to this article without regards for the sources, but by this nine volt battery I just can't stop licking. It's so tingly! ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:35, 29 June 2021 (UTC) The objections to the reliability and validity of IQ tests above—"whether one had a good night's sleep the night before or suffered from insomnia", and so on—along with such broad claims as "how accurately or reliably IQ measures any aspect of intelligence is open to debate" surely apply to all psychological testing. But "reliability" and "validity" have specific meanings in statistical contexts, and elsewhere Wikipedia states with confidence both that "[p]sychometricians generally regard IQ tests as having high statistical reliability" and that "clinical psychologists generally regard IQ scores as having sufficient statistical validity". WP:BALANCE certainly supports the statement in Wikipedia voice that "IQ tests are statistically valid and reliable", no? Elle Kpyros (talk) 21:11, 27 August 2021 (UTC) To rehash a lot of the arguments when the FAQ was made: historically, there are a lot of problems with the use and interpretations of IQ results—it's not clear what element of intelligence it measures, even if the results for a person are consistent. (Also, since the "Intelligence quotient" page is not a WP guideline in itself, WP:LOCALCONSENSUS on this page doesn't have to follow the consensus on that page.) —Wingedserif (talk) 21:24, 27 August 2021 (UTC) Yes, and... it's worth pointing out that nothing in the FAQ contradicts what's written at Intelligence quotient#Reliability and validity. The bit that the recent OP left out, "...for many clinical purposes", is a crucial caveat. This appears to be a non-issue. Generalrelative (talk) 21:42, 27 August 2021 (UTC) The only thing an IQ test measures is one's ability to take an IQ test. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:44, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Should the Q&A section have sources?

For example the claim "So comparing Africans to Europeans will show differences in genes that regulate skin color, hair texture, nose and lip shape, and other observable traits. But the rest of the genetic code will be essentially the same." I would be interesting to learn what sources the claim that difference in genes between Africans and Europeans are limited to observable traits is based on.

Similarly there are many other claims there that read more like opinions rather than facts. What are the editing guidelines that apply to the Q&A?

2A00:23C7:EE82:7701:90A2:E3C3:BD92:E870 (talk) 22:11, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

The procedure is pretty simple. You suggest specific changes to the FAQ and then establish a consensus here on the talk page by persuading others. Typically that's done by referencing high quality reliable sources and Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Be aware, however, that this is one of the most contentious topic areas on the whole encyclopedia, with 103 talk page archives for this page alone. Until recently only extended-confirmed users could even comment here due to a long history of disruption. Many of us have been over these issues again and again and again, so you will sometimes reach the limit of people's patience relatively quickly, especially when you can find out the answers to your questions on your own by reading through the archives or doing some basic research on Google.

All that said, I'll assume that you're asking in good faith and will direct you to, e.g. this rather straightforward explanation: [15]. And if you're looking for something a bit more on the peer-reviewed scientific paper side of things, see e.g. [16] or [17]. I hope that's helpful.

Also, many of the answers in the FAQ are full of citations. I'd be more than happy to work with anyone who'd like to add pertinent references to the others. Generalrelative (talk) 04:53, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Generalrelative, I do not have a subscription to National Geographic, but I did read the two studies you linked. However, I must have missed the part where they mention that the differences are limited to observable traits. Hope you can quote me where in those sources such claim is made? Its contrary to what I have been taught in my own professional sphere.2A00:23C7:EE82:7701:1906:630D:E828:D194 (talk) 11:36, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

I suggest going back to the first study and everywhere it says "phenotype" understand that by that the authors mean "observable traits" because that's what the term means. Both studies support the scientific consensus that there is no genetic basis for grouping humanity into natural population groups as can be done with other species because of the extraordinarily high degree of interrelatedness that is evident in the human genome, despite the outward differences that would seem to suggest otherwise like skin color and hair type. Again, I hope that's helpful. Generalrelative (talk) 13:55, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Possibly there is some confusion because of the ambiguity of the term "observable traits." In the phenotype article they are defined as "the set of observable characteristics or traits of an organism. The term covers the organism's morphology or physical form and structure, its developmental processes, its biochemical and physiological properties, its behavior, and the products of behavior" while in the Q&A it seems to refer to visible traits only. Alaexis_¿question? 14:40, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Ah, thanks Alaexis. I see what you mean, and I'd support adding "susceptibility to certain diseases" or something like that for clarity. The key thing I wouldn't want to lose sight of here is the principle of some astonishment, in this case that despite the outward differences which would seem to suggest otherwise we are far too interrelated to be meaningfully sorted into genetically distinct population groups. Generalrelative (talk) 14:56, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Alexis! So observable traits include not just physical characteristics, as the Q&A seemed to suggest, but also observable differences in behaviour and cognition?

2A00:23C7:EE82:7701:1906:630D:E828:D194 (talk) 17:13, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

This is the definition from the phenotype article. I have no idea what the sources that were used for the Q&A meant by "observable traits." Alaexis_¿question? 17:31, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

By the way you might want to register. There has been a history of problematic editing here... Alaexis_¿question? 17:34, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

In this case no, not cognition, since there is a clear consensus that no evidence exists to support the contention that group-level differences in cognition have a genetic basis. That's the key point which the FAQ exists to rebut, and which the recent RfC unquestionably established. Generalrelative (talk) 17:55, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

The current version gives an impression it only refers to physical characteristics, so maybe good to mention that phenotype also includes observable behavioural differences? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C7:EE82:7701:CCBA:1BC:2A3D:90D4 (talk) 22:35, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Nope, no evidence exists that group-level differences in behavior have a genetic basis either. Generalrelative (talk) 03:43, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Mixing "observable" and "visible" traits?

The Q&A seems to confuse "observable" and "visible" traits. Differences in behaviour or cognitive abilities can be observable, although they are not physical. Therefore the claim that "So comparing Africans to Europeans will show differences in genes that regulate skin color, hair texture, nose and lip shape, and other observable traits. But the rest of the genetic code will be essentially the same." Seems nonsensical. How could we find non-observable differences? Is IQ not an "observable trait/characteristic"?

2A00:23C7:EE82:7701:1906:630D:E828:D194 (talk) 17:27, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Please see the above. I'm not sure why you'd want to start an entirely new heading for this but in any case your concerns have been addressed. Generalrelative (talk) 17:59, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

My question is that does the Q&A gives an impression that "observable traits" are visible traits, whereas it also includes observable behavioural differences? So does the Q&A mean to say that there is a genetic base in behavioural differences, or only visible differences?

I do not understand what "So comparing Africans to Europeans will show differences in genes that regulate skin color, hair texture, nose and lip shape, and other observable traits. But the rest of the genetic code will be essentially the same." is trying to say? It seems to imply that differences are limited to physical differences, otherwise it makes no sense to me that it can only show differences that are observable?

2A00:23C7:EE82:7701:CCBA:1BC:2A3D:90D4 (talk) 19:30, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

How is Rothman & Snyderman survey not representative of the mainstream

The Q&A states that surveys on intelligence experts "are almost invariably conducted by advocates of scientific racism, and respondents to these surveys are also almost exclusively members of groups that promote scientific racism. In short, they are not representative samples of mainstream scientific opinion."

How is Rothman and Snyderman survey not representative sample of scientific opinion? The 1020 experts in the survey were chosen randomly from the following organisations:

American Educational Research Association (120) National Council on Measurement in Education (120) American Psychological Association: Development psychology division (120) Educational psychology division (120) Evaluation and Measurement division (120) School psychology division (120) Counseling psychology division (60) Industrial and organizational psychology division (60) Behavior Genetics Association (60) American Sociological Association (education) (60) Cognitive Science Society (60)

How are these not mainstream scientists?

You omitted "not representative samples of". Please consult statistics books for beginners to find out how little you understand the problem. --Hob Gadling (talk) 20:37, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Is your comment the sort of discussion encouraged in Wikipedia? I do not understand how the criticism in the Q&A towards surveys of intelligence experts is in anyway applicable to the Rothman & Snyderman survey. These organisations seem to represent mainstream science, no?

2A00:23C7:EE82:7701:CCBA:1BC:2A3D:90D4 (talk) 20:49, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Referring to any other editors as uninformed contradicts WP:NPA.

2A00:23C7:EE82:7701:CCBA:1BC:2A3D:90D4 (talk) 20:52, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Actually no, referring to other editors as uninformed when they have shown themselves clearly to be uninformed does not violate WP:NPA, especially when they have been given ample warning about the nature of this topic area and the norms of contributing here –– as I provided in my first response to you above –– and have failed to read carefully what they aim to criticize. We always assume good faith and that people are coming at this with a reasonable amount of competence, but at some point when people show that they do not possess that competence there is nothing to be done but point that out to the person and, if one wants to go above and beyond as Hob Gadling has done, point them toward a way in which can educate themselves. Of course some people are so caught up in an image of themselves as very knowledgeable that they will react negatively to this, but there is only so much we can do without further disrupting the project. This is all summed up nicely in the explanatory supplement WP:CIR. Generalrelative (talk) 03:51, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

In this case questions arose largely because the Q&A has no references. I understand that possibly the justifications for each item are somewhere in these 103 archives, but wouldn't it be easier for everyone to provide them explicitly? Alaexis_¿question? 06:36, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm afraid, questions of this kind will always be repeated by those uninformed people who Generalrelative described so well in their comment above. Look at the "contributions" of that IP, the only one to main space (here) was quite horrible, it was quickly reverted, and justly so. A time sink. --Rsk6400 (talk) 08:35, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Does anyone want to get the extended confirmed protection restored? Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:10, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

@Hemiauchenia: I wouldn't be opposed, but FYI MrOllie recently raised the issue with Dennis Brown, the admin who issued the EC protection previously. His reply was that the level of disruption here is not yet sufficient to warrant restoration, but he asked to be kept posted if disruption continues. Generalrelative (talk) 05:21, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Adding the latest genetic research

How about we add the polygenic scores on educational attainment SNPs for the relevant races. https://www.mdpi.com/2624-8611/1/1/5 Please do not say we cannot add them because the author on the paper has said mean stuff on twitter btw. 93.149.193.190 (talk) 19:37, 30 November 2021 (UTC)