Talk:Russia

Archives
Archive 1	Archive 2	Archive 3	Archive 4

Pro-Russian?

I had no idea Russia was such a pinnacle of human civilization! My god, I've been brainwashed by these American imperialist dogs!

Seriously, though, I think Wikipedia's usual anti-US bias, though somewhat understandable in today's world, has reared its head again here. To me at least, this article seems concocted to play down all criticism of Russia, past and present, and spin everything to sound as though any criticism is just the result of Western imperialism. I particularly liked this sentence:

"While many reforms made under Putin’s rule have been generally criticized by Western nations as un-democratic,[75] Putin's leadership over the return of order, stability and progress has won him widespread popularity in Russia,[76] as well as recognition abroad."

Darn those "Westerners", criticizing "reform"! At least the rest of the world gives him "recognition" for the "return" to "progress" that he "led".

Come on folks, I'm not saying Russia is the big evil boogeyman it was painted as during the Cold War, but every nation has problems and it's OK to talk about them openly and honestly, without trying to play them off. 24.174.30.146 (talk) 03:08, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Man, i'm from russia. And i had no idea that i'm living in such a paradise either. =) 89.110.23.40 (talk) 19:17, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

There are no problems with the example that you have provided, Putin was the Head of State in a period of political stability, economic growth and a considerable improvement in public order, if only accounted for by the much increased numbers of policemen patrolling the streets. However, at the same time, there was a reduction in "democracy" in that electible candidates have largely become Kremlin's candidates (which still has not stopped an occasional Communist politician winning a mayoral election); and the was increased intrusion into privacy, freedom of speech and assembly -- which have drawn widespread criticism from the West, but only limited criticism from within Russia itself.

Yeah, this article is full of BS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheTruthInMusic (talk • contribs) 13:50, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Nowhere does the article imply that Russia is problem-free and generally a paradise that everyone should move to.158.143.215.84 (talk) 20:25, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

"Come on", "seriously", do you think that US is "a pinnacle of civilization"? Somehow nobody thinks this way outside US (I guess this will be too a huge surprise to you, especially if you get most of your information from US TV and US newspapers - just guessing based on your Texas IP-address 24.174.xx.xx...) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.237.244.226 (talk) 02:55, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry everyone, Russia will spread the iron fist of democracy across Asia and Europe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.53.17.149 (talk) 19:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

"wiki anti-US bias" ? really ? i'd rather say it's just the other way round —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.227.61 (talk) 12:36, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

"The nation can boast a long tradition of excellence in every aspect of the arts and sciences" - While I will give the sons and daughters of russia due credit for their contributions to human civilization, a statement like this seems to me to be partial and overly nationalistic. The entire article I agree has serious, systemic issues, particularly the tone of praise for Putin ad his policies, which prevent it from being useful for any serious research.Celareon (talk) 17:35, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Wow! How good is Russia? I had no idea until Wikipedia informed me. I will now share with everyone, the greatness that is Russia.

Children

I was surprised to find nothing in this article about child porn or child abuse (beating children). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.165.242.219 (talk) 03:56, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Does it have anything to do with Russia? As far as I know, there is child porn, and beating of children in every country. EliAS 15:51, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I exert corporal punishment on my kids here, in US, if thats what you're pointing at, and I know many other people who do. As for child porn, you probably know better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.91.10.69 (talk) 23:08, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Problems

I have removed several problems with the article:

This table contradicts other sources about the size of the Soviet economy by saying that it was $500 billion at the time of the Soviet collapse. The CIA factbook and other sources say the size of the Soviet economy in 1990 was $2.65 trillion or at least $2 trillion at the time of its collapse, of which Russia accounted for something like 60%.

"a 150% increase in real rates" -

It doesn't say this in the source.

"The UN estimates that about 12.1% of Russians live on less than 2$(PPP) per day according to their most recent available data between 1990 - 2005, most of whom are pensioners and low skilled workers in depressive regions." -

This data is outdated. It's based on data between 1990-2005, when the average wage was several times lower than it is now.

"As the Soviet Union, Russia was traditionally very strong in basketball. At the moment they have various players in the NBA, notably Andrei Kirilenko, although they are not considered as much of a basketball force as some of their Eastern European counterparts such as Serbia or Lithuania. However in 2007, Russia defeated world champions Spain to win Eurobasket 07.

After the post-soviet rot of football in Russia, it has recently undergone a huge revival. Not only is the Russian system producing more and more talented Russian players (evident in Russia's fantastic form on the international stage), but the Russian league, with a new injection of funds from the government and various companies, is now the wealthiest in Eastern Europe and has attracted much foreign talent as well as Russian talent. Russian clubs have had great success in European competition recently: CSKA Moscow won the UEFA cup in 2005 and Zenit St. Petersburg repeated this feat in 2008." -

Besides a couple of facts like winning Eurobasket in 2007 and the UEFA cup in 2005 and 2008, this is original research and opinion.--Berkunt (talk) 00:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Sigh not this again. That chart is based on nominal GDP, you're talking about PPP GDP. Two very different measures. Look at the source of the image, and in the future remember that according to WP:V wikipedia requires verifiability not truth (meaning you can't remove reliably sourced information based on what you personally believe). Krawndawg (talk) 03:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

No, if you read the sources I provided they do not say the Soviet Union's GDP is based on purchasing power parity methods. When you have sources contradicting each other then you can't put one set of information that is directly contradicted by another (several, in fact) source. This nominal GDP table is misleading anyway because it implies that Russia's economy is 2.5 times larger than it was during Soviet times when in fact it has only recently recovered to the Soviet level according to this source (and others I have read) - ("After a decade of growth, Russia is still only back to the level it reached just before the fall of the Soviet Union" (Feb 28th 2008) [1])--Berkunt (talk) 04:56, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Again, you're talking about purchasing power. They might use the term "international dollars" instead of purchasing power, but it's definitely not in US dollars or "official exchange rate" as the CIA factbook puts it. Look at this list and compare it with this one and you'll start to see what I'm talking about. The Russian economy in PPP surpassed 2 trillion in 2007 (hence it surpassed the Soviet economy in PPP), in nominal its still only 1.3 trillion. You can check the IMF website and see the entire history of Russia's GDP growth in both nominal and PPP (though I think they base their nominal figures on current US exchange rate, so the nominal GDP in 1992 would be even lower than 500 billion). If there are any contradictions, it's the fault of the other figure and the fact that it doesn't say what method of measurement it uses. That should be fixed, rather than removing a reliably sourced chart (The BBC knows more than you or I). I don't see anything contradictory in the actual article anyways. Could you point out what's being contradicted? Krawndawg (talk) 16:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I also just checked that CIA factbook link and it doesn't give any GDP figures for the USSR. It gives GNP figures, but that's completely different.Krawndawg (talk) 16:29, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Regardless, my second point was that it should be a purchasing power parity graph anyway because money wasn't as important in the Soviet Union as in countries with market economies because the government controlled all means of production and received all revenue from enterprises, that is why it is better to put a purchasing power parity graph rather than a nominal GDP graph. That is why all sources that compare the size of the Soviet and US economies ay that the Soviet economy was about 50% of the size of the US economy, or $2.6 trillion. If they used "nominal" figures it would be more like 10-20% of the US economy but nobody says this because it is more valuable to compare output rather than exchange rate, especially since money wasn't as important in the Soviet Union as in countries with market economies. For instance, we don't write on the Soviet Union article that the size of its economy was only $500 billion, do we? Neither does the CIA. The nominal GDP table from the BBC is misleading because it relies on the exchange rate rather than the output of goods and thus implies that Russia's economy is 2.5 times larger than it was during Soviet times when in fact it has only recently recovered to the Soviet level in real terms. It is better to compare their economies in real terms, ie the actual value of goods produced compared to each other, rather than based on exchange rate.--Berkunt (talk) 04:26, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I understand where you're coming from, but that's entirely based on the assumption that the reader is only interested in comparing Russia to other countries. Nominal GDP is important in its own right, so unless you have a PPP chart to replace that one, why remove it altogether? It's still useful information about Russia's economy and shows the recession/crisis/boom throughout the years, which is the most important part in my opinion. I don't think it's misleading because a PPP chart would still show the same general trend, just with different numbers. Krawndawg (talk) 22:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

As Doopdoop agreed with me, a real GDP chart is needed, not because it is useful in comparing Russia to other countries but to compare it to its past, a nominal chart is misleading because it says that the Russian economy is 2.5 times larger than at the dissolution of the Soviet Union when in real terms the Russian economy has just recently recovered from the trauma of the 1990s.--Berkunt (talk) 04:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Doopdoop has no idea what he's talking about as is clearly evident in all of his posts. He's just on the bandwagon of "lets remove anything positive about Russia from the article for any random reason we can think of". But anyhow, do you have such a graph that shows PPP? I was thinking about making one myself using the same format but haven't gotten around to it yet. I won't bother if you can supply one however. Krawndawg (talk) 05:12, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Hows that? I just want to add that when you say the economy recently recovered from what it was at the collapse of the Soviet Union, I'm pretty sure that includes every country in the USSR at the time, and Russia was only about a bit over half of the total Soviet economy (which makes sense if you do the math according to IMF Russia figures, 1.16 trillion x2 etc..) The chart isn't going to be able to reflect that recovery. And also, when people say it's just recovering from the 90s, that's referring to lost growth. Again, that can't really be reflected in a gdp chart, unless you can find some figures that would reflect this.Krawndawg (talk) 23:15, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Much better, but could you please make it start at 0 rather than 700 billion? Now if you don't click on the chart to enlarge it, it looks like the GDP (PPP) has grown fourfold, which is misleading. Colchicum (talk) 23:24, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Just look at the numbers, 1.1 trillion to 2.1 trillion isn't fourfold. The chart would have to be gigantic if I start from 0. looks kind of silly.. Krawndawg (talk) 23:36, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

No, the last one is better and doesn't look silly at all. Unfortunately in order to look at the numbers one would need to enlarge the chart. That's what I mean. Colchicum (talk) 23:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The chart will be large enough in the article to see the numbers without clicking it. It will look like it does in the Putin article.

I saw those IMF figures before but I did not want to put them in because the figures show that the economy basically fully recovered all the GDP it lost in two years - the economy was in recession up until 1998, then by 2000 it shows it back up to the Soviet level. This seems misleading or incorrect because the economy was a mess in 2000 and the standard of living was well below the Soviet level.--Miyokan (talk) 12:54, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The numbers aren't incorrect, but I agree it can be somewhat misleading/confusing. The economy didn't recover what it lost in two years because you have to take into account for not just the recession, but the gains it should have been making. At an average 5-7% growth per year from '92-'00, the economy in '00 should have been about 1.7-1.8 trillion. It would look something like this. (We assume the economy wouldn't have grown so rapidly in the Putin years, which with oil prices as they are, very well could be a false assumption). As for standards of living, the difference between 1991 and 2000 is that although the economy was the same size, instead of the countries wealth being distributed to the citizens via socialism, it was being horded by a few individuals for self gain. Just another example of why GDP isn't the best measure of living standards (see also Qatar and Saudi Arabia). Krawndawg (talk) 19:39, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Russia is a Superpower

Russia can't even feed themselves, why don't you fuck off and take your shit elsewhere, stupid prick. Russia is a superpower[2] [3][4] [5] [6][7] [8] because they have the economics[9] [10], the wealth[11] [12], the diplomatic power[13] [14], ideological[15] [16] [17][18][19][20], technological power[21] [22][23][24][25]& advances[26] than any other country besides the United States (look here on why the US is losing its superpower status read here:[27][28][29]) reconizes Russia as a superpower [30], they have the cultural sector and lets not forget their military forces (supreme). Russia is also the largest military arsenal producer in the world (they hold 73% of the world market) and they have the worlds largest nuclear weapons arsenal than another other country (newer & older which many are reconditioned as new again) which is 5 times greater than the US has.

Yes they are super power. So we won't see pictures of Russian old ladies scraping ice off their living room walls and drinking vodka to keep warm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.75.0.240 (talk) 18:36, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

So Russia is a Superpower and lets not forget a Space Superpower, remember Russia has a Mar's mission coming up in 2015 [31]to 2024, also a Moon space station planned for 2015[32] without NASA but Russia going by itself; which NASA is out of funding due to a poor current US economy, 2007 & 2008.

Russia is a Superpower, that's plenty of facts in the bag to state they are in that position. Now look at the United State's position[33][34] [35]), think what they are in for, a lot in the bag on the whole US economy on all sorts of issues, I suggest you read about before making such false insults on Russia. (talk) --Versace11 (talk) 10:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

"Superpower" refers to the Soviet Union there. The sentence structure is a bit awkward, yes. --Illythr (talk) 22:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Not true, read above.--Versace11 (talk) 10:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Good points, US is losing its superpower and Russia comes right back again. A good book on Russia as a superpower is called Russia in the 21st Century: The Prodigal Superpower by Steven Rosefielde 2004 [36] The book is about Russia intends to reemerge as a full-fledged superpower before 2010, challenging America and China and potentially threatening a new arms race. Yet with the all the stuff on CNN about them saying Russia is a superpower again, I believe they already are the superpower just without the 15 post Soviet countries they once had. Personally I am impressed considering how broke they were and how Russia paid off its entire deficit in 2006 from 15 years of paying off debt and turning all the post soviet military agencies down in 1991, everything has all been funded for and turned on again, all running again as it did. Really I have to give them hands up for that and Putin, his presidency he is favored almost more than 80% (look at George Bush, he is favored lower than 23%, everybody wants him gone). The Russian’s aren’t dumb, that’s for sure but the United States and the heat of water they are in right now, nothing to laugh about now.

Russia isn't playing around; they are playing their cards carefully. Superpower indeed but the US forcing NATO in post soviet countries over the years is a violation against US's promises to Russia back in 1991 by President Ronald Reagan making a promise and look at it today, NATO is in Czech Rep, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Romania, Bulgaria, Lithuania and besides Georgia & Ukraine wanting in (just rejected last April 2008 because Russia is really angry at NATO as Russia is the oil supplier for Western/Eastern Europe)[37]. Who brought this on? The United States pushed it and that is against what Reagan promised Russia but the US has violated its promise.

Russia should defend itself from this bull dog the United States has been dying lying to Russia. These countries above shouldn't be NATO members and the US promised no NATO expansion in post soviet countries and look at the US has done. Created an angry superpower back up again Russia.--24.176.166.135 (talk) 09:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Also the article by CNN[38] "Russia, a Superpower Raises Again" as goes into details about how Russia was always a superpower regardless if it was always an energy superpower but it goes on to say it was a superpower even after 1991.--24.176.166.135 (talk) 09:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

PUTIN

Vladimir Putin has only extended the powers of the presidency. He has made no motions toward a freer russia. Even now after he has officially vacated office he has his puppet dmitry in charge and he remains prime minister. If any one knows anything about a single act putin has pushed for drop me a message at AragornSOArathorn.

-AragornSOAragorn —Preceding unsigned comment added by AragornSOArathorn (talk • contribs) 22:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

"We're not electing a new President. We're just helping the old one to choose a new nickname and avatar." (c=bashorg.ru) --Illythr (talk) 22:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Give McCain a chance. World will love him.194.85.148.66 (talk) 13:33, 7 August 2008 (UTC)Dmitry

hahahaha152.1.149.9 (talk) 14:33, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Dmitry Medvedev

"Президент РФ Дмитрий Медведев"

• http://news.google.co.uk/news?ned=ru_ru&hl=ru&ned=ru_ru&scoring=d&q=%22%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82+%D0%A0%D0%A4+%D0%94%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B9+%D0%9C%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%B2+&btnG=%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BA

194.66.226.95 (talk) 12:50, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Buckshot's edits

I have restored the status quo because there were problems with the information he added.

"At least up until 2004 however, 'military officials repeatedly complain[ed] that they were able to draft less than 11 per cent of those who are supposed to be conscripts'. his was partially due to the widely publicised excesses of dedovshchina, the harsh system of senior conscripts controlling the barracks."

Golts' hearsay is unconfirmed and, at the year 2004, outdated.

The reason you gave for reducing the contract term, which you listed as because of "the need for contract troops to operate the latest equipment" is not the only reason. There are several reasons why the contract term is being reduced, for instance because it is in line with the "lighter and more mobile" Russian armed forces post-Soviet doctrine, health/education problems with draftees, dedovschina, etc, that is why there is "several problems associated with it" is listed. In any case, it is appropriate to go into such detail on the Russian armed forces article, but on this article the armed forces section only has a paragraph devoted to it and there is a many aspects to cover, going into detail about one only serves to inflate an already bloated article.--Berkunt (talk) 15:22, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Superpower

I've seen the new comments being made that Russia is a superpower and United States is no longer a superpower and stating Russia is far more powerful than the USA. ROFL in all the time I've been on Wikpedia I don't think I've ever heard something so crazy which someone seriously believed. This is not just a ridiculous Russian nationalist fantasy, it's sickening. Fanatical Russians clinging to the idea their finished state is actually still something for the world to fear because their country is only held together by the idea that it should wreak war on others, and America hating sympathisers who look for and support any possible states or entities that could rival the United States, no matter how brutal and disgusting they may be, whether it be such likes as China or Al-Quaeda. Russia is an absolutely finished state with a rapidly falling population that is now even smaller than Pakistan's, it's economy sits in a pathetic 11th position in the world which has been claimed many times is too low to be in the G8, its military spending in a poor 7th position with only a tiny number of its roting military still functioning, internal conflicts and borders falling apart with its regions such as Chechnya breaking away and technically became independent states with their own presidents.

How can Russia even for a second be seriously considered a superpower let alone be more powerful than the US when it can only just scrape in to claim to be a great power considering most other great powers such as the UK, France, Germany, Japan, Italy, and China out perform Russia in economic rankings and military spending rankings. Infact all great powers mentioned above have larger economies than Russia and only Italy spends less on its military, and not by very much.

Russia may very well have large reserves of oil and gas and tries to claim these make it oh so powerful of a country because it has reserves in similar size to that of Iran. Thing is reserves of oil and gas in similar size to that of Iran's have not made Iran a superpower, infact Iran isn't even a great power. Russia has a medium economic growth rate traditionally around 5% a year. The United States has an economic growth rate traditionally around 4% a year. When does Russia's economy expect to by pass America's? 2800? 5% economic growth is actually pretty poor for a developing economy, with such likes as China and India growing at around 9% or more, and it's only 1% higher than America's and America is fully developed. In fact how can the Russian economy even try to compare to the US economy when it's not even a developed economy?

It gets even more ridiculous when you try to compare numbers between Russia and the United States. Russia's $1.2 trillion economy versus the United States $13.7 trillion economy. That's around 13 times larger. The US economy equals 25% of the world's GDP. Russia's $40 billion military spending versus the USA's $583 billion military spending. The USA's military spending is 50% of the world's military spending. Russia's rapidly declining population of 142 million people versus the USA's rapidly rising population of 304 million people. When Russia's economy equals 26% of the world's GDP, its military spending equals 51% of world military spending, and a rapidly growing population of 305 million people THEN AND ONLY THEN is it a superpower more powerful than the United States

In case even all this still has't proved how pathetic Russian power is as of 2008 I've laid out Russia's rankings in important areas associated with power

• Economy

2007 List by the International Monetary Fund

Rank Country GDP (millions of USD) — Template:Country data World World 54,311,608 — European Union 16,830,100 1 United States 13,843,825 2 Japan 4,383,762 3 Germany 3,322,147 4 China 3,250,827 5 United Kingdom 2,772,570 6 France 2,560,255 7 Italy 2,104,666 8 Spain 1,438,959 9 Canada 1,432,140 10 Brazil 1,313,590 11 Russia 1,289,582 12 India 1,098,945 13 South Korea 957,053 14 Australia 908,826 15 Mexico 893,365 Military Rank Country Military expenditures (USD) Date of information — Template:Country data World World Total 1,200,000,000,000 2007 (projected est.) — NATO Total 849,875,309,000 1 United States 583,283,000,000 2008 — European Union Total 311,920,000,000 2007 2 France 74,690,470,000 2008-2009 3 United Kingdom 68,911,000,000 FY 2008-09 4 China 59,000,000,000 2008 5 Germany 45,930,000,000 2008 6 Japan 41,750,000,000 2007 7 Russia 40,000,000,000 2008 8 Italy 32,600,000,000 2008 (est.) 9 Saudi Arabia 31,050,000,000 2008 10 South Korea 28,940,000,000 2008 11 India 26,500,000,000 2008-2009[39] 12 Brazil 25,396,731,055 2008 13 Australia 20,727,710,000 2008 14 Canada 17,150,002,540 2008 15 Spain 15,792,207,000 2007 Population Rank Country/territory/entity Population Date % of world population Source — Template:Country data World World 6,671,226,000 July 1, 2007 100% UN estimate 1 People's Republic of China 1,438,351,000 November 19 2024 21.56% Chinese Population clock 2 India 1,387,360,000 November 19 2024 20.8% Indian Population clock 3 United States 338,768,000 November 19 2024 5.08% Official USA Population clock 4 Indonesia 231,627,000 3.47% UN estimate 5 Brazil 186,917,074 May 27, 2008 2.8% Official Brazilian Population clock 6 Pakistan 214,562,000 November 19 2024 3.22% Official Pakistani Population clock 7 Bangladesh 158,665,000 2.38% UN estimate 8 Nigeria 148,093,000 2.22% UN estimate 9 Russia 142,008,800 January 1, 2008 2.13% Federal State Statistics Service 10 Japan 127,720,000 March 1, 2008 1.92% Official Japan Statistics Bureau estimate 11 Mexico 106,535,000 1.6% UN estimate 12 Philippines 88,574,614 August 1, 2007 1.33% 2007 Official NSO Census Results 13 Vietnam 87,375,000 1.31% UN estimate 14 Germany 82,244,000 November 30, 2007 1.23% Federal Statistics Office estimate 15 Ethiopia 77,127,000 July 2007 1.16% Ethiopia Central Statistics Agency Signsolid (talk) 08:31, 31 May 2008 (UTC) But at PPP (Purchasing Power Parity) which is considered more accurate to measure a national product, Russia´s GDP has surpassed already the United Kingdom and France and it is sixth in the World. Not so bad... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.53.111.55 (talk) 05:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC) that's cool, this is not a forum to post your opinions, by the way Russia's economy is one of the fastest growing in the world and they're soon to overtake the UK as the second largest european economy by PPP, hope this helps Nightmare X (talk) 17:21, 31 May 2008 (UTC) I am sorry but I don't understand your reaction to Signsolid's post, Nightmare X. The question whether Russia is a superpower or not is relevant and he just responded to the claim that it is (posted here in May 2008 by Versace11 - see above) and provided us with convincing arguments (including numbers) which proved that Russia cannot be classified as a superpower. That's all. I know that it can be a bitter pill to swallow for some people but Wikipedia is about facts - not about inflating one's ego. I couldn't find anything inappropriate in his post. Just facts and numbers. Tomasz J Kotarba (talk) 11:37, 8 July 2008 (UTC) This is not a forum for you to voice your communist sympathy towards Russia in hope that the Soviet Union will return one day. Sorry to disappoint you but Russia's never going to be a superpower again. Hey at the rate their population is falling, their territory being lost, and military rotting they might just be as poor, small, weak, and crappy as Chile soon? Signsolid (talk) 17:03, 1 June 2008 (UTC) You just attacked editor Nightmare X, who by the way was not the user who posted the "Russia is a Superpower" topic. Nightmare X just came in here to remind you that this is not a general forum, to stay civil, be polite, and refrain from personal attacks. Too bad you didn't listen to him because you've just violated Wikipedia policy twice in a row.--71.112.145.211 (talk) 18:59, 1 June 2008 (UTC) As a matter of fact, Russia is probably less Communist than any other major European state at the moment. Are you perhaps a Putinist agent aiming to provoke people into defending this country by making ridiculous statements? --217.172.29.4 (talk) 15:13, 13 June 2008 (UTC) 124.183.76.112 (talk) 13:05, 3 August 2008 (UTC) Russia's economy is growing by 8-10% every year. It has the worlds largest resource base, is technologically advanced and has a sizable well educated population that will stop shrinking by 2010, leveling out at around 140 million then rising again. It is also untouchable by any outside power thanks to it's nuclear arsenal, and large technologically advanced military compared to 90% of other states in the world. It's only direction is forward, not backward. Russia will be a global power and global player as long as it maintains control of so much territory and natural wealth. With it's nuclear arsenal, which is just as capable as any other, and which does include the largest number of warheads stockpiled, that is easy. The biggest enemy to russia comes from within. Same to usa, same to china. Internal mismanagement and instability. George Bush is doing a fine job of ruining America's economy. A few more george bushes and we have obvious consequences for America. But it hopefully won't come to that. You guys really have to stop looking for foes, work together and prosper. Trade, build up your economies, and look for enemies in space or something. That is exactly what we do. All you've named, except for looking for enemies. The economy grows for the last 10 years. And we do not look for enemies - not in Korea, nor in Iran and Iraq, or Kuba. Not, of course, in Europe and US. We let others be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.85.148.66 (talk) 13:19, 7 August 2008 (UTC) Russia..a super power..what a joke, It's economy is only 1.2 trillion in GDP, its average capita is most Western nation's poverty line- it dose have a decent military, but it's still no match for countries like America, and perhaps China now. It's political influence is hardly stable, it invaded Georgia and that ruined its influence and political reputation. Russia is no more a super power- than perhaps a state within the EU. The days of the Soviet Union is over. The Russian federation is a shell in all aspects. Now, lets compare it to the only known superpower, and what some consider a new superpower. America spends around 480 billion a year on its military. compared to the Russian federation that spends only 32 billion The average American family makes 43,000- 48,000 USD a year. The average Russian family makes 11,000-15,000 USD a year. The American GDP is 13.8 trillion The Russians GDP is 1.2 trillion Why is Russia described as a superpower? I think the term 'super power' should be removed in the description. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jade Rat (talk • contribs) 16:11, 14 August 2008 (UTC) Does anyone have any recent data on Russia's present A-bomb count and megatonage? I agree it is not a "superpower" but after the reductions in their arsenal I wonder what exactly is the total present atomic capability and viable delivery means (which constitutes the bulk of its quasi-superpower potential). JSimmonz (talk) 03:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC) All this is very interesting but you must live in Russia to judge its advantages and possibilities. According to my dates US' GDP is counted not as it is in Europe. For example, when Jack gives Sam twenty bucks for cleaning his car, American GDP increases for this sum, but when Franz gives John twenty euros for the same, EU' GDP doesn't change. So it's unclear how large US national wealth is. neplox P. S .: I'm russian myself and live in St. Petersburg the whole life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.94.16.147 (talk) 06:25, 17 August 2008 (UTC) Hi 81.94.16.147, would you be willing to answer some questions on your country at my user talk (so as not to traffic this spot)? I am very interested in what it is like living there. JSimmonz (talk) 20:01, 23 August 2008 (UTC) dont forget the large arsenal of intercontinental rockets with mass destruction weapon (NUCLEAR power)! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.227.61 (talk) 12:39, 29 August 2008 (UTC) Russia's nuclear reserves alone qualify it as a superpower; there is little to debate. While Russia's actual political, economic, and cultural influence abroad has fluctuated and can be debated as to degree, there is little doubt that if it chose to place a dominating hand in any sphere, the world would be forced to listen. You simply cannot ignore a nation with the capability to destroy the entire world many times over. The only power with even a chance of negating such a threat would be the United States (thanks to our own nuclear reserve and our missile defense technology). Note the world's response to Russia's involvement in Georgia; despite general condemnation from the West, Russia withdrew on its own timescale and no one elses, much like the U.S. situation in Iraq. The point is not to project one's feelings about Iraq onto the Georgian conflict or vice versa, the point is that when Russia wants to push itself into global affairs, it does it, and everyone else is left to either bury their head in sand or to preach rather ineffectively. Moral judgements aside, Russia is still very much a superpower, albeit one that has been rather quite for some time. If nothing else, the continued U.S. embargo against Cuba is proof enough that the United States believes Russia to be capable of a great deal. Cuba in isolation is hardly worth the effort of an embargo. In fact, a return to Stalinist measures would have easily stopped the breakup of the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union's collapse was largely a sign of the maturity of its political regime, and their decision to let go of their former strong-arm tactics is what allowed the criminal element to explode and precipitate the economic landslide of the 90s. The relative stability of Putin's reign is due to his return to strongman tactics. Do not be fooled into thinking that they could not revive their Iron Fist if they believed it necessary. Give Russia credit for attempting to normalize their behavior, and do not doubt their power. Russia is very much a shadow of its former self, and the U.S. is very much the dominant power in the world today (even if it is losing that title rapidly). But it would only take a few American tanks on Russian soil to show exactly how much of a superpower Russia still is. 67.171.67.235 (talk) 19:22, 10 October 2008 (UTC) Establishment date Strange no Independence clause is in there by the date. Something about ancient times is said, but no independence date, no info on that Russia became independent from the Soviet Union. Probably it can be disputed what the issue if officially, whether Russia officially existed within, or in parallel with, Soviet Union -- you know, Soviet laws had little to do with reality, and I would not be surprised if there is a piece of paper saying that every Soviet republic, including Russia, was independent, free, and democratic within Soviet Union. However, de-facto independence was proclaimed during the Russian White House defense on August 19-21, 1991 (I think 19 is the right day, not sure). There is another "official" independence date, but those are papers -- the reality is August 19, independence from Soviet Union. BTW, Ukraine article does state independence. Why not Russia? Gelbukh (talk) 15:18, 30 July 2008 (UTC) From talk page of pianist.ru. It is in Russian, please use Google translation if needed: Россия (Russia) По России: Правопреемственность: Российская республика, провозглашенная в феврале 1917 года стала правопреемницей Российской империи. РСФСР, установленная в октябре (по ст. стилю) 1917 года — правопреемница Российской республики. Далее 4 республики (РСФСР, БССР, УССР, ЗСФСР) объединились в СССР (при этом РСФСР продолжала существовать как государство в составе СССР, см. любую конституцию РСФСР 1918, 1925, 1938, 1978 года). В 1991 году Ельцин был избран Президентом РСФСР (одновременно ещё был Президент СССР - Горбачев). В декабре главами РСФСР, БССР, УССР подписано беловежское соглашение, Горбач уходит в отставку. Президент РСФСР не уничтожает РСФСР (по разным соображениям, также во избежание потери власти), а просто переименовывает её в РФ. Действуют все законы РСФСР (то же самое государство) и СССР (до указов о приостановлении конкретного закона), также обязательства Советского Союза перед другими государствами (РСФСР стала его государством-правопреемником). Поэтому дата основания современной России — 7 октября 1917 года. Шоковая терапия, прихватизация и прочее по сути дела являются лишь продолжением перестроечной политики, хотя и сбивают несведущих граждан с толку. Еще их запутывает конституция РФ 1993 года, воспринимаемая как первая конституция России, однако она уже пятая по счёту. --Pianist 01:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC) Эта одна из точек зрения - вероятно вполне законная. С другой стороны Россия стала правоприемницей и наследницей многого от СССР. Например, у РСФСР было свое место в ООН, свое представительство, свой голос, это место не имело постоянного представительства в СБ и права вето. После распада СССР РФ получила не место РСФСР, а место СССР. РФ полностью взяла на себе внеший долг, обязательства по междунородным договорам, стату ядерной державы и проч. С третьей стороны РСФСР как предмет международного права после 1921 года не существовал (ну или почти не существовал). РФ руководствуется не договорами РСФСР, а договорами СССР. Или новыми договорами. С четвертой стороны юридически принятие действующей (Собчаковской) конституции в 1993 году было полным нарушением предыдущей конституции. В этом смысле государство существует с 1993 года. С пятой, по вашей точке зрения, поскольку в РСФСР теоретически действовали все законы Российской Империи кроме официально отменных. То современная РФ существует со значительно более ранних времен (Московского княжества?, Ивана III?). Таким образом, говорить, что РФ существует с 1917 года - это откровенный WP:OR или ОРИСС. Если Вы найдете авторитетный источники это подтверждающие (не передовицу газеты Правда, а, скажем, Британику) - то можно. То что сейчас тоже надо поправить, но мне кажется, что сказать, что стала полностью суверенным государство в 1991г. - сказать можно).Alex Bakharev (talk) 02:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC) По ООН - мягко выражаясь не совсем правдивая информация. РСФСР не вступала в ООН (в отличие от БССР и УССР), поэтому не знаю откуда вы это взяли. Кстати это не моя альтернативная точка зрения, как вы пытались намекнуть, это факты меджународного права. После ликвидации государства следует созыв учредительного собрания, принятие новой конституции; если вы не помните 1993 год, то напомню что конституцию приняли из-за событий возле Белого дома, а не потому что хотели принять конституцию нового государства. Поэтому прошу вас убрать ваш откат обратно. --Pianist 03:21, 6 June 2008 (UTC) Откатывал последний раз не я, а Berkunt. Я как раз пытаюсь учесть вашу точку зрения. У Вас есть сомнения, что Россия получила независимость от СССР в 1991? If possible lets use English, we are English wikipediaAlex Bakharev (talk) 03:30, 6 June 2008 (UTC) Прошу прощения, но если я буду писать по-английски, то сильно исказится смысл того, что я хотел сказать. Независимость от СССР Россия получила, но это дата независимости, а не дата основания. Как говорится, это две большие разницы. Независимой Россия также была с 1917 по 1922 год. Кстати по комментарию, к откату участника Berkunt. По его мнению Российская империя была также переименована. Также он пропустил Российскую республику. Вот в том и сложности, что у множества людей начинается разрыв шаблонов, когда начинаешь писать задокументированные факты. По переименованию могу привести ссылку на официальный документ. Надеюсь вы понимаете, что переименование и прекращение существования государства - не одно и то же. --Pianist 04:02, 6 June 2008 (UTC) Alex Bakharev, вам не кажется странным, что в шаблоне указана дата основания (862), а вы даете сноску на дату независимости. Нужно и про 7 ноября 1917 года написать, что юридически РФ основана тогда. --Pianist 06:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC) Утром - ссылка на надежные источники, вечером - дата. Можно и наоборот, но источники - вперед. Alex Bakharev (talk) 06:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC) Закон в студию! Закон РСФСР от 25 декабря 1991 года № 2094-1 «Об изменении наименования государства Российская Советская Федеративная Социалистическая Республика». Вот ещё фотография закона с подписью Бориса Ельцина в виде бонуса --Pianist 07:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC) Это Ваша интерпретация (WP:SYNTH). Покажите ссылку где сказано, что РФ существует с Октября 1917 года. Alex Bakharev (talk) 07:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC) Как сложно разговаривать. РСФСР - это и есть РФ (что подтверждает закон, что я привел). РСФСР образована 7 ноября 1917 (БСЭ). --Pianist 23:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC) I disagree with your original research. Still I would wait for the input from other editors Alex Bakharev (talk) 01:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC) When you have no arguments, you start saying about "original researches". I wrote Reliable sources to you. (Вот началось - кончаются аргументы - надо начинать орать про оригинальные исследования. Ссылки я указал, вы начинаете доводить до абсурда правила Википедии) --Pianist 01:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC) We are not doing original research. We are looking for the mainstream views in published sources. Please find any reliable source that claim that modern RF starts in 1917. WP:SYNTH is not allowed, sorry Alex Bakharev (talk) 08:54, 8 June 2008 (UTC) Вот как все херово в Википедии - добавить факты нельзя - долго доказываешь и подтверждаешь ссылками, а в итоге всё будет откачено волюнтаристским решением админа (либо вообще додиков, что про Россию знают меньше, чем например русские про Гондурас). Сейчас в статье информация по дате независимости ложная, а даты образования вообще нет. Россия приняла декларацию независимости 12 июня 1990 года (а сейчас указан 1991 год), юридически Россия основана 7 ноября 1917 года (по новому стилю), однако вики-демократам эта дата не по-душе, ладно - триколор в жопу, ветер в спину - можете тогда указывать в качестве даты основания хоть август 1991, хоть октябрь 1993. Лет через сто может найдется умный человек и вернет правильную версию. Причем отсюда за этот период тупо скопируют в другие языковые разделы википедии. --Pianist 06:40, 11 June 2008 (UTC) The Supreme Soviet of RSFSR could proclaim whatever they want, the republic was not de-facto indendent until the August 1991. Otherwise we would have to admit that Estonia was an independent democratic state in 1940-1991. Still I have entered both dates to address your concerns Alex Bakharev (talk) 08:16, 11 June 2008 (UTC) Вот сейчас более-менее, но тема основания не раскрыта (1917), по данным, указанным в статье, получается что даже Израиль юридически старше России, однако это не так.--Pianist 09:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC) I have added the info you requested (with a valid reference BTW) Alex Bakharev (talk) 10:42, 11 June 2008 (UTC) I don't want to search documents for you (try google, if you want them), but Russia (Russian Federation) and USSR is the same country as I was told yet in school. It has survived dramatical changes, but de juri and de facto it's so. Так что, друзья мои, учите матчасть. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.94.16.147 (talk) 06:36, 17 August 2008 (UTC) wikipedia's anti-russian bias Is seen from its citing purely american standpoint of what is the size of the territory of Russia.The actual area of Russia is 17,098,242 km2,see wikpedias russian version,that's 22848 square kilometers more than shown in wikipedia's english version. Frank Russian (talk) 12:42, 14 July 2008 (UTC) Are the Serbs really anti-russian? -- j.budissin (talk) 23:39, 14 July 2008 (UTC) Really-really anti-russian gang is at Federal State Statistics Service of Russia. --Tigga en (talk) 21:42, 21 July 2008 (UTC) They have changed wiki russian aticle for 17,075,400 km recently.Wiki redactors must have woken up at last. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.99.66.166 (talk) 14:03, 30 July 2008 (UTC) russian healthcare Just wanted to comment that the sub chapter "Russian healthcare" would be (imho) good to move to a separate article "Healthcare in Russia" and add the categories "Healthcare by country" and "Health economics" to that article (as this is the case with a number of other countries. --Jhelleranta (talk) 18:07, 19 August 2008 (UTC) Если ты читал источник не внимательно, вот цитата: "В медицинской сфере дискриминация привела к тому, что неработающие граждане без регистрации по месту жительства не могут оформить медицинский полис. Те же, кто медицинский полис имеет, не могут получить медицинскую помощь на территории, не совпадающей с их регистрацией." И прописка, это лишь одна из причин, по которой всеобщее право на бесплатную медицину остаётся только на бумаге. Другая распространённая, это то, что значительная часть страны рпботает "нелегально" получает зарплату в конвертах и, как следствие, также не имеет полиса. Я не знаю откуда ты сам, но я например, живу в росси. И с тех самых пор, как закончил университет в 2002г. ни разу не имел этого полиса по разным причинам, равно как и большинство моих друзей. Что до выщитывания процентов, то вообще не понятно к чему это. Там ясно написано, что конституция гарантирует всем. На деле, разница между повседневностью и конституцией в россии огромна. И даже если и один этого не имеет, это уже не всем. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.81.237 (talk) 15:46, 24 July 2008 (UTC) Firstly, the article is discussing various types of discrimination by "propiska", not just discussing just health care. Health care is just one of the areas briefly touched upon. Secondly, your quote is meaningless without numbers of how many people this affects. The article listed potentially 3 million victims of propiska discrimination ("Количество потенциальных жертв подобной дискриминации составляет минимум 3 миллиона человек.") - that is less than 2% of Russia's population. This by itself shows that access to health care is hardly a big problem. But I'll add some points. Furthermore, it states half of the 3 million figure are people working in Moscow, ("Около половины от этого числа людей работают в Москве, остальные, как правило, трудятся в других крупных городах страны") so it is hardly a nationwide problem. Furthermore, this 3 million figure counts all the various aspects of discrimination via propiska that the article covered (the article covered the right to work, to health care, to buy state housing, registration of motor vehicles, to obtain a loan and suffrage - "Среди прав, которые незаконно поставлены в зависимость от наличия регистрации, - право на труд, на медицинскую помощь, на покупку квартир по программе "Доступное жилье", на регистрацию автомобилей, на получение кредита и даже активное избирательное право."), not just health care. So the figure for people affected by solely health care, not counting all these other aspects which are included in this 3 million figure, would be even smaller, and the article doesn't provide this information anyway, which is the only information we are interested in.--Miyokan (talk) 16:07, 24 July 2008 (UTC) The statement is you can't get free health care without proper "propiska". So i don't know the way how this figure could be even smaller than amount of people without proper "propiska". Another statement you can't get free health care if you work illegally. And lot of russians do. And anyway, as i told you above, that article says "Russia's constitution guarantees free, universal health care for all citizens." Even if one doesn't in fact have this right, it's not all 91.122.81.237 (talk) 16:43, 24 July 2008 (UTC) Sure, there might be some cases of this, but it shouldn't be added to the article per WP:UNDUE as it affects so little people (less than 2% of the population - even less when you discount all the other discriminations that are included in that figure). It also basically just affects Moscow. This information belongs in the propiska article.--Miyokan (talk) 01:36, 25 July 2008 (UTC) Third time: not less! Because it's not you either can't register motor vehicle or can't get free health care, but all together at same time. + add here the amount of people, working illegally. And anyway, it doesn't matter. 98% 99% or 97% it's not all. So this part of the article gives false impression. And it's not a view of minority, which WP:UNDUE covers. It's view of official states ombudsman, assigned to this role by russian president —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.81.237 (talk) 09:25, 25 July 2008 (UTC) Stop violating concensus, you have been reverted by another editor now. You have also broken the three-revert rule. There is nothing false about "Russia's constitution guarantees free, universal health care for all citizens", that is just fact. That possibly 1% of people do not get it because they break the law does not discount this statement.--Miyokan (talk) 09:37, 25 July 2008 (UTC) There is no consensus reached. And a fact that i were reverted by another editor, does not mean that my edits are wrong. Stop manipulate numbers and facts (3 of 140 is more than 2% FYI). This peoples can't get this right not because they've broke the law. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.81.237 (talk) 09:51, 25 July 2008 (UTC) Yes, they have broken the law because propiska is a permit, it is a legal document, if these illegal Moscow workers followed the rules of propiska like 99% of the population does then they wouldn't have any problem.--Miyokan (talk) 09:57, 25 July 2008 (UTC) That reference, which i've provided, does not say even a word about people broke a law. Peoples, which can't get theirs free health care are not outlaws. And don't forget, that russian constitution guaranties freedom of movement and settlement. So how could there be a permit on settlement? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.84.125 (talk) 10:09, 25 July 2008 (UTC) I'll repeat it again because you just ignored what I said. Yes, they have broken the law because propiska is a law, if these illegal Moscow workers followed the propiska law like 99% of the population does then they wouldn't have any problem. The Russian constitution argument, that is WP:OR and debateable, the Constitutional court has not ruled that propiska is unconstitutional. If you think propiska is unconstitutional then feel free to take it to the Constitutional court. Anyway, access to health care is hardly a problem as we have established that 98/99% of the population are not affected by this.--Miyokan (talk) 10:28, 25 July 2008 (UTC) References does not say that those people have broke the law! It's just your imagination. Its not unlawful to live without propiska. It's not even unlawful to be a homeless. And anyway, even if such, constitution guaranties free health care to all which includes even outlaws because they are citizens as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.84.125 (talk) 10:51, 25 July 2008 (UTC) The fact is the reason why these people are facing these "restrictions" is because they are not following the proper rules of propiska. Even ignoring this, you still neglect that this doesn't affect the 99% of Russians who do follow the rules.--Miyokan (talk) 12:10, 25 July 2008 (UTC) Once again, reference does not say that "they are not following the proper rules of propiska" or anything like that. It's just your imagination. Its not unlawful to live without propiska. It's not even unlawful to be a homeless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.92.76 (talk) 13:26, 25 July 2008 (UTC) You are misrepresenting sources. "Те же, кто медицинский полис имеет, не могут получить медицинскую помощь на территории, не совпадающей с их регистрацией.") - Translation - "Those who have a medical policy cannot receive medical care in the territory not concurrent with their registration (propiska)". ie If people followed the rule and sought medical care in the territory concurrent with their registration like they are supposed to like 99% of Russians, then they would have no problem. All of this is irrelevant anyway because, as you yet again ignored, it this doesn't affect 99% of Russians as the article said.--Miyokan (talk) 14:22, 25 July 2008 (UTC) Actually complete phrase is "В медицинской сфере дискриминация привела к тому, что неработающие граждане без регистрации по месту жительства не могут оформить медицинский полис. Те же, кто медицинский полис имеет, не могут получить медицинскую помощь на территории, не совпадающей с их регистрацией." (In medical aspect discrimination lead to the fact that unemployed citizens without propiska can't get policy for free health care. Those who have a medical policy cannot receive medical care in the territory not concurrent with their propiska) And i'm not going to comment your statements about "following rules" and "99%" again and again. I've done that already. Statement, that i've added to article is properly sourced by reliable source. So stop deleting it. I'm over with that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.92.76 (talk) 15:07, 25 July 2008 (UTC) Anonymous IP: If you'd study the health-care systems in other countries with so called "free" health-care, you'll find them all to have some sorts of restrictions and rules. That's just the nature of these types of social systems. Technicalities, such as your assertion that health care isn't free to *everyone* because illegal workers don't get it, does not at all warrant mention in this article (especially when you word it the way you do so to make it seem like a widespread issue that effects a significant portion of the population.) The main point is that every citizen in Russia is guaranteed free health care as long as they follow the rules (common sense, goes without saying), the same as in every European country. Krawndawg (talk) 15:39, 25 July 2008 (UTC) Again. Those people mentioned in report of official russian ombudsmen do not brake rules or laws! And what is happening in other countries is not relevant to this article at all. I haven't mentioned illegal workers in this article. There is discrimination in russia in area of health care. And this statement has reliable sources ( official russian ombudsmen report and others ). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.110.13.68 (talk) 18:00, 26 July 2008 (UTC) OK, after a post at WP:NPOV/N, I am responding. 1) @IP: you have edit warred a lot, across several IPs, and have scarcely avoiding violating WP:3RR on a few occasions. This makes getting in contact with you hard. Please register an account. 2) @Miyokan et al.: I see no problem including a note that the universal health care has problems; in fact, it provides information to the read that is important. I've translated the source into English, and the IP is not misrepresenting it at all. The Evil Spartan (talk) 23:15, 27 July 2008 (UTC) Read what Krawndawg said, Spartan. Anon is again ignoring facts so I'll repeat again - "Те же, кто медицинский полис имеет, не могут получить медицинскую помощь на территории, не совпадающей с их регистрацией.") - Translation - "Those who have a medical policy cannot receive medical care in the territory not concurrent with their registration (propiska)". ie If people followed the rule and sought medical care in the territory concurrent with their registration like they are supposed to like 99% of Russians, then they would have no problem. It is impossible to argue with Anon, he ignores our points and facts repeats the same thing ad nauseum. Every universal health care in the world has some sorts of restriction rules, which is the nature of these types of social systems. And if you indeed read the source (google translate?) then you would have read that 99% of Russians are not affected by these rules.--Miyokan (talk) 03:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC) Fourth time: they do not brake rules. I don't know where you got it. All those "ie If" is just your original research. Russian ombudsmen clearly calls it as discrimination in his report. I repeat: discrimination. The article is biased, and gives wrong impression. Sounds like "russia got such a great free universal health care system, and all problems is just came from nowhere" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.94.39 (talk) 09:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC) I think the repeated deletion of this text by three registered users (Miyokan, Krawdawng and Cuban kossak) is against the core WP:NPOV policy. You do not own this article. A user, who acts in a good faith, wants to include the another side of the coin - based on a source. Let him do it. What kind of cooperation is that? This suppose to be a collaborative project.Biophys (talk) 17:08, 30 July 2008 (UTC) We can not give undue weight to health care not being provided to people who live in places in violation of Russian law.--Natl1 (Talk Page) (Contribs) 17:40, 30 July 2008 (UTC) Seems like all this dispute is double bull. Healthcare problem is hardly related to propiska at all (trust me - I'm one of 3 million, although the number should be doubled for Moscow alone), not even to money. It's about scarcity of medical resources and their concentration in a few institutions (yes, primarily Muscovite). Got xxx-tis? Go to Moscow to Dr.Y. (it's cheaper than going to similarly qualified Dr.Z somewhere in Irkutsk). NVO (talk) 21:58, 13 August 2008 (UTC) Where did you get that, about law violation? And official russian ombudsmen report of cause have undue weight. Only your fantasies about law violation is heavyweight. 89.110.23.40 (talk) 17:46, 30 July 2008 (UTC) If people can not legally register but still chose to reside where they can not legally register they are violating Russian law. Since most people are able to legally register where they reside, it is undue weight to put a sentence about who can't in second sentence of the Russian health section. An official Russian ombudsmen report does not change this. People who are not able to legally register where they choose to reside are a small part of the Russian population.--Natl1 (Talk Page) (Contribs) 18:04, 30 July 2008 (UTC) As i told above: Its not unlawful to live without propiska. It's not even unlawful to be a homeless. So what law are they violating? Report does not say anything about any law violations committed by those people. 89.110.23.40 (talk) 18:19, 30 July 2008 (UTC) Oh, i've missed that report can't change your mind. But unfortunately for you, we should add statements not based on what you think of it, but on reliable sources 89.110.23.40 (talk) 18:27, 30 July 2008 (UTC) What do you think Registration is for, for fun. Of course it is made by law. Don't repeat your questions, points when they have been negated. See User:Jnc/Astronomer vs Amateur.--Natl1 (Talk Page) (Contribs) 18:30, 30 July 2008 (UTC) If by "negated" you mean simply ignoring questions like "So what law are they violating?" ok than. Seems like we finished. And i believe that you understand laws a way better than official russian ombudsmen. 89.110.23.40 (talk) 18:51, 30 July 2008 (UTC) This user only wants to tell that "But in practice, free health care is restricted due, for example, to propiska regime". This is obviously true, and what "undue weight"? This way you can call anything you do not like "undue weight". If propiska by itself represents a lawful practice is debatable and a separate question. Biophys (talk) 18:42, 30 July 2008 (UTC) The point is the user is trying to say that "Russians are being prevented from enjoying free health care from propiskas." This is misrepresenting the facts. It should be "People who live illegally at their location in Russia are not being provided with health care."--Natl1 (Talk Page) (Contribs) 18:51, 30 July 2008 (UTC) No, I cited the deleted text precisely: "But in practice, free health care is restricted due, for example, to propiska regime".Biophys (talk) 23:07, 30 July 2008 (UTC) "Citizens who live illegally in their own country" sounds nice. =) Can i ask, what your imaginable russian law suppose to do with those criminals? Depart them? Where? To the moon? Or should they just be immediately shot? 89.110.23.40 (talk) 19:03, 30 July 2008 (UTC) Right, Natl1 apparently considers Russian citizens to be illegal aliens if only they visit Moscow instead of staying in their Syktyvkar. This sounds like Stalinism to me.Biophys (talk) 23:07, 30 July 2008 (UTC) I think this should go on propiska as the matter at hand deals with supposed no freedom of movement and the consequences of its enforcement. Nothing to do with how health care is provided to most Russians.--Natl1 (Talk Page) (Contribs) 00:12, 31 July 2008 (UTC) Looks like anonymous IP is back after his 3 day block for block evasion and breaking the 3RR and the semi-protection of the article expired.[40] Anon seems to ignore everything we say and facts that I point out and thinks that brute edit warring and repeating the same defeated argument ad nauseam, instead of gaining WP:CONCENSUS for his new controversial edit which there obviously isn't, will keep this information in. He seems to want to make a WP:POINT that Russia has a bad health care system ("The article is biased, and gives wrong impression. Sounds like "russia got such a great free universal health care system, and all problems is just came from nowhere"). He is blaming it on propiska/registration (freedom of movement which affects access to health care if not correctly followed), which has nothing to do with quality of health care services and doesn't affect 99% of Russians. Source: "Те же, кто медицинский полис имеет, не могут получить медицинскую помощь на территории, не совпадающей с их регистрацией.") - Translation - "Those who have a medical policy cannot receive medical care in the territory not concurrent with their registration (propiska)". ie If people followed the rule and sought medical care in the territory concurrent with their registration like they are supposed to like 99% of Russians, then they would have no problem. Propiska/registration, is a permit, it is a legal document, as Natl1 said, it is not for fun. This is WP:UNDUE as it doesn't affect 99% of Russians ("Количество потенциальных жертв подобной дискриминации составляет минимум 3 миллиона человек." Translation - article said propiska potentially affects at least 3 million Russians - that's only around 2% of the population, potentially at that, and this figure counts all the various aspects of discrimination via propiska that the article covered, [the article covered the right to work, to health care, to buy state housing, registration of motor vehicles, to obtain a loan and suffrage, health care was just one of many - "Среди прав, которые незаконно поставлены в зависимость от наличия регистрации, - право на труд, на медицинскую помощь, на покупку квартир по программе "Доступное жилье", на регистрацию автомобилей, на получение кредита и даже активное избирательное право."]) and the 1-2% of the population that it does affect are not following the propiska rules. (WP:UNDUE-Undue weight applies to more than just viewpoints. Just as giving undue weight to a viewpoint is not neutral, so is giving undue weight to other verifiable and sourced statements. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.) - the fact that it doesn't affect 99% of Russians falls under this criteria by itself, but you can add to that who follow the law, and that all the health-care systems in other countries with so called "free" health-care have some sorts of restrictions and rules, makes it certainly undue). Furthermore, it states half of the 3 million figure are people working in Moscow, ("Около половины от этого числа людей работают в Москве, остальные, как правило, трудятся в других крупных городах страны"), so it is hardly a nationwide problem. It is a freedom of movement problem, isolated mostly to Moscow that doesn't affect 98-99% of the pop.--Miyokan (talk) 12:34, 5 August 2008 (UTC) Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution Just in case if you were not aware of that ;) 89.110.9.132 (talk) 19:55, 5 August 2008 (UTC) Right. But then you should register as a regular user and ask for mediation.Biophys (talk) 21:38, 5 August 2008 (UTC) Indeed. Brute edit warring and repeating the same defeated argument ad nauseam, as other users noted, to get what you want when so many are opposed will not get you anywhere, I and other users will be here tommorow, and the day after that, and the week after that, and the year after that. The onus is on the user who adds the information to keep it in ("If your ideas are not immediately accepted, think of a reasonable change that might integrate your ideas with others and make an edit, or discuss those ideas.") and you still have no WP:CONSENSUS for your change, which was immediately met with opposition from several editors, so seek consensus on talk here or through mediation as you have no hope of keeping it in without it, and continuing to add this disputed information with no concensus will only get you blocked.--Miyokan (talk) 12:29, 6 August 2008 (UTC) You are welcome to join. 91.122.90.169 (talk) 14:55, 6 August 2008 (UTC) One could also create article Health care in Russia (now this is a redirect) and describe everything there. There is a lot of things to be said, including the infant mortality rate, conditions in maternity yards, etc.Biophys (talk) 16:02, 6 August 2008 (UTC) I don't see how that would solve this specific problem. It would still put the propiska problem under the wrong heading.--Natl1 (Talk Page) (Contribs) 17:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC) This is not about propiska. This is about denial of health care on the grounds that a person has a wrong record in his/her internal passport. A person who allegedly undergoes this discrimination can not easily change this record. This is not a USA driver's license. To put this in perspective, consider that a Mexican illegal alien in the US has an access to emergency health care in the US. However a Russian citizen can be denied health care at the territory of Russia, being considered as a kind of an "illegal" alien, based on this "propiska" system. At least, that is an argument of the IP, if I understand him/her correctly.Biophys (talk) 19:05, 6 August 2008 (UTC) Biased/Inaccurate History This article claims Kievan Rus' as the beginning of its historical recount. Kievan Rus', since it's establishment in 5th century, was the capital of the country now called Ukraine, and shares its culture, language and history. The Moscow State established itself as a notable power centuries later than Kievan Rus',in 15th century and 471 miles away. The ethnic composition, the spoken language, and culture of Moscow State (what is now Russia) was completely distinct from that of Kievan Rus'. The language used by the Slavic Rus' is not "shared" by Ukraine; in fact, modern Ukrainian shares a lot with Polish, which is not surprising considering Poland ruled Ukraine for hundreds of years. The Ancient Rus' never called themselves "Ukrainian" nor did they call their state "Kievan Rus'", which is a modern invention. The inhabitants of Ancient Rus' were not Ukrainians, nor Russians or Belarussians, none of which had yet emerged as separate ethnic groups. The Rus' were quite simply the Rus, and the predecessors of all three groups. Put another way, Russians, Belarussians and Ukrainians are descendants of the Rus', and, thus, were at one point the same group of people. So in fact, all three countries have the same legitimate claim to claiming Ancient Rus' in historical recounts.--71.112.145.102 (talk) 07:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC) Novgorod, I would assume, was Ukrainian as well. --Humanophage (talk) 23:37, 31 August 2008 (UTC) Human/civil rights I'm a bit surprised, there is not a section about civil/human rights. I think it is far from perfect. Well, maybe just certain people want it to be clean and to to mention it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ceridan (talk • contribs) 17:45, 10 August 2008 (UTC) The USA article doesn't have it to, and the CIA invented it. Kostan1 (talk) 14:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC) What rights?! seriously, the list will be long enough for a dozen spinoff articles. NVO (talk) 22:08, 13 August 2008 (UTC) No link to 2008 South Ossetia war? Georgia's page links there. Is this not notable information concerning Russia at this moment in time? Emesee (talk) 20:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC) Yes, it should be included. Ostap 22:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC) While the effect of the war is very visible and immediate in case of Georgia, it is not yet so for Russia. Wait a few weeks, until the effect on Russia becomes more clear, then add it to highlight that effect. Right now, a short notice of an ongoing conflict is sufficient. --Illythr (talk) 22:25, 11 August 2008 (UTC) Yes, people in Russia are not affected by this conflict and most people in Russia are not preoccupied with it. WP:NOT#NEWS. Russia has been in far larger wars in its history, we don't list every war/conflict Russia was involved in during Muscovy, Tsarist or Imperial Russia sections.--Miyokan (talk) 05:54, 13 August 2008 (UTC) There may be a big effect whether they are conscious of it or not. This may be a matter of perspective, however. One author sums it up as "The invasion restores a sense of Russian nationalism and power to its populace without the stink of Stalinism, and is indeed cloaked as a sort of humanitarian intervention on behalf of beleaguered Ossetians." However, if it comes down to simply not including it because of "wp,news (not)" then OK, that's great. Emesee (talk) 00:26, 16 August 2008 (UTC) Now this probably sounds really evil, but the 3:1 victory of the Russian national football team over the Netherlands this year may have had just the effect on Russians this author describes, albeit for a short time (until the semifinals). The idea is to wait until the dust settles and see what the long-term geopolitical and social (if any) consequences of this war will be, find the (numerous, reliable, independent) sources pinpointing those, and add them in. --Illythr (talk) 01:44, 16 August 2008 (UTC) Request for minor grammatical change I would like to suggest the following minor changes, deleting the words I have marked with a strike-through and adding the words I have marked in bold. "Following the Soviet practice, it is mandatory for all male citizens aged 18–27 to be drafted for two years' Armed Forces service, though various problems associated with this is explain why the armed forces have reduced the conscription term from 18 months to 12 since 2008, and are planning to increase the proportion of contract servicemen to compose 70% of the armed forces by 2010." I do not feel these change the meaning of the sentence in any way but I do feel they improve the readability of this section. Kapello (talk) 01:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC) Done.--Miyokan (talk) 05:16, 14 August 2008 (UTC) POV Content At the very top of the article it says that "Russia shares land borders with the following countries", among which Abkhazia and South Ossetia are listed. I understand that Russia has recently recognized Abkhazia and South Ossetia as independent states, but much of the rest of the world has not, and is refusing to recognize them. I'd like to make a request to either have a heading on top of the page of disputing the neutrality of the article, or have this section reworded. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 43.244.33.124 (talk) 01:35, 28 August 2008 (UTC) Well, Kosovo is listed as having a common border with the Republic of Macedonia, Albania and Montenegro. I think a common solution should be developed for all of them. --Illythr (talk) 19:47, 29 August 2008 (UTC) Well, I think it is fair with a sort of disclaimer. This is about Russia, after all, so it does matter that the Russian government consider them independent, though personally I disagree w.r.t. Abkhazia and the border delimitation in S. Ossetia. Colchicum (talk) 20:27, 29 August 2008 (UTC) I would rather remove them all (Kosovo, S Oss, Abkhasia). --Illythr (talk) 21:42, 29 August 2008 (UTC) I second that opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 43.244.33.124 (talk) 02:54, 30 August 2008 (UTC) Headline text trjhfghxcvb vcfhcv vghbv —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.88.131.233 (talk) 00:28, 8 September 2008 (UTC) Kievan Rus' The Kievan Rus' was not Russian. IT WAS UKRAINIAN and the Russians stoll this from us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.71.88.255 (talk) 01:25, 12 September 2008 (UTC) Really? Are you gonna say that Ukraine founded earlier than Kiev Russia? Modern Russian, Ukrainian and Belorussian ethnic groups were absent in the 9th century. EAST SLAVIC tribes lived there ("radimichi", "krivichi", "vyatichi" et cetera). They used the Old Russian language. Ukrainians and the Ukrainian language appeared in about 14th century (like Russians and Belorussians also). Open any encyclopedia or course of history and you'll see this info. LexArt (talk) 08:26, 15 September 2008 (UTC) This article is ... Someone reading this article would have *absolutely no idea* about how Russia is. There is nothing here about the lack of respect for law, nothing about the lack of democractic process, the destruction of the free press, the absolute concentration of political power into the Kremlin, etc. This article is a brainwash. I'm ashamed to see it on Wikipedia. Toby Douglass (talk) 00:51, 13 September 2008 (UTC) Maybe you're right, but it's unreal to write an absolutely neutral article about so big and powerful country IMHO. For example, we can also correct the article USA, and write about a dry-rot of American Economy, about brainwashing in US mass media in the event in South Ossetia, about the aggressive Middle East politics of Bush Jr. Yeah? We can find a lot of confirmations of inhumanity of every political regime. But we will never find who's right. Therefore we should edit all articles about big and powerful countries (like Russia, US, China, India, Brazil etc) very accurately and cautiously, IMHO. LexArt (talk) 08:45, 15 September 2008 (UTC) I agree, Toby, but WP:BE BOLD. Colchicum (talk) 09:37, 15 September 2008 (UTC) Colchicum, you're right. All the Wikipedians should be careful. LexArt (talk) 12:39, 15 September 2008 (UTC) Racism in Russia: New section needed I propose we add a new section to the article about racism in Russia. It is a huge issue, with growing number of neonazis, skinheads and nationalists. Russia has a large population of minorities, and with growing racism, there have been increased reports of violence and killings of minorities in Russia. In 2005 there have been over 300 known killings, this number has been already surpassed. There are already articles on this on Wikipedia, I think they should be referenced here... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.124.159.215 (talk) 21:46, 15 September 2008 (UTC) Yes, it's great idea to create new section. It always was, and still is a big issue in Russia.--Edilhan777 (talk) 21:57, 26 September 2008 (UTC) Show me a single other country article which has racism as a separate section on it; does United States, Australia, Germany, Estonia, Georgia (country), etc? Racism is a problem which all countries encounter (including those I have singled out), and needs to be dealt with in separate articles. --Russavia Dialogue Stalk me 05:29, 17 October 2008 (UTC) Typos and clarity Sorry to bother, but I have noticed two errors in the article, as well as two parts that I believe need more clarity. The first error that I found was under the Topography section, where a sentence reads, "Other major lakes include Lake Ladoga and Lake Onega, two largest lakes in Europe." This surely cannot be a complete sentence. Perhaps it should read, "Other major lakes include Lake Ladoga and Lake Onega, the two largest lakes in Europe." The other error is in the first sentence of the Russian Federation section. The part in question reads, "... of the USSR when-wide ranging reforms..." The hyphen here should most likely be between wide and ranging, instead of when and wide. Under the Subdivisions section, I believe that the explanation of the federal subjects is rather confusing. It may have just been the fact that I was also in a math lecture when I was reading this, but it may want to be checked. Also, it would be nice if under the Geography section that the percentage of the world's area that Russia controls was listed. Especially under Topography, many numbers are listed, and although these numbers are good to have, it'd be nice to have something to compare it to. This is especially important for the part where it says that Russia controls 10% of the world's arable land. If Russia were only 1% of the world's area, then this would be impressive, and if Russia were 80% of the world's area, then this number would obviously bear less significance. As it stands, Russia controls 11.5% of the world's land, which means that it having 10% of the arable land is actually a bit less than expected. Once again, sorry to bother, but I hope someone with the awesome ability to edit locked articles can improve these parts. Haberdasheryisnotacrime (talk) 17:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC) I guess russians do not know geography. when they say that russia borders Georgia, Abkhazia, South Ossetia they don't understand Abkhazia and South Ossetia are just the regions of Georgia. but russia will border soon North Ossetia, Ingushetia, Chechnya, Kabardino-Balkaria, Karachay-Cherkessia, Adigeya and Dagestan and others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.184.172.178 (talk) 01:53, 29 September 2008 (UTC) Bordering countries Because of only Russia recognises South Ossetia and Abkhazia, should they be added to the list of countries Russia borders? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.238.141.113 (talk) 16:35, 1 October 2008 (UTC) "Every" The nation can boast a long tradition of excellence in every aspect of the arts and sciences. — Maybe so, but is this information or a boast? "Every" is an absolute term in English, meaning there are no exceptions — absolutely every respect is included. I looked for a parallel in the article on the United States, and found the U.S. described as a leader in scientific research and technological innovation. This seems a bit less fulsome. "A leader" is not the only leader, and doesn't necessarily mean a leader in every aspect of research and innovation. I have great respect for Russia and its culture, which I find fascinating. But the above statement strikes me as a bit POV. Sca (talk) 19:30, 7 October 2008 (UTC) Current Russia shouldn't take the credit for the works of SU and Russian Empire According to this article Russian conservatories have turned out generations of world-renowned soloists well none of the great performers mentioned took lesson on Russian Federation conservatories but conservatories in the Russian Empire and USSR. Still this article labels them as having had lessons at Russian conservatories. Horowitz went to the Kiev conservatory, well that is not in Russia now is it? So why was this edit: [41] undone? Seems like some editors think Wikipedia is a tool to glorify Russia rather then to inform people about it. -- Mariah-Yulia (talk) 22:02, 18 October 2008 (UTC) There are no historical or contemporary distinctions in the adjective "Russian"; all it means is "pertaining to Russia." It doesn't matter whether it pertained to Russia hundreds of years ago or today.--71.112.145.102 (talk) 03:39, 25 October 2008 (UTC)