Talk:William Lane Craig

Creationist?

Is it even worth mentioning Dr Craig's supposed involvement in the intelligent design movement? He is not notable for it although he has expressed support for it, but so what, that's not enough to make mention in an encyclopaedia is it? Although Craig has views on the matter of evolution, his research is not around that area. He does spend time researching and working on cosmology, physics etc. What do people think? I have even heard him say in his podcast that he is "agnostic" when it comes to evolution. I suspect the intelligent design barely warrants a mention here, but am open to other opinions since he does sometimes talk about it in his podcasts, but then he talks about an awful lot of other things in his podcasts too. For example, his moral argument, his argument from contingency etc. These probably deserve more of a mention than this "Intelligent Design" mention. What do you think? --Andygsp (talk) 00:57, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

I am removing the catagories and mention of Craig as a creationist and I am disputing the characterization of Craig as such but am willing to discuss the matter and see if someone knows (with citation) something that I don't. I am aware of Craig's recent posts on his website, but I do not believe that he, at any time, identifies himself as a creationist, or a "progressive creationist." He does voice skepticism of macroevolution--but he has always maintained that macroevolution is compatible with Christianity--he says that his skepticism is not required by his theological commitments. I don't think it is fair to characterize him as a creationist if he himself does not embrace that label. Is David Berlinski, for example, also a "creationist" as he voices similar skepticism (without belief in a god)? Is Francis Collins a "creationist" because he believes, as Craig does, that the big bang carries theological implications? It isn't fair, or objective by wiki standards, to slap a label on someone when that person does not embrace the label (unless Craig has and I am just unaware of it--in which case I will yield upon seeing a citation). Adlucem2 (talk) 22:16, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

WLC is NOT a "Young-Earth Creationist". He is a "creationist" (note the use of the lower-case "c") more along the lines of Francis Collins and he (WLC) DOES agree with modern cosmology. I heard him something to that effect (I don't remember the exact words) in a debate I found on YouTube - "Willaim Lane Craig vs Lewis Wolpert"

Part 11 of 12 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ejresKtSBg

Part 12 of 12 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUsMHSeWvaA

The relevent part starts around 8:35 in part 11 and continues into part 12.

Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 08:30, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Collins isn't a creationist fitting the definition of creationism. BBiiis08 (talk) 17:55, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I never said Collins was a Creationist. I said he was a creationist, meaning that the universe didn't pop into existence uncaused - see Theistic Evolution here for more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_Evolution. Collins is a Christian, not an atheist.

Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 07:05, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree that it is not fitting to refer to Craig as a creationist. Theowarner2 (talk) 20:43, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Craig is a member of two creationist organisations, the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture and the International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design, who has written against evolution. That makes him a creationist. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 11:44, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

I like the recent language which says Craig "inclines to toward progressive creationism" and "advoc[ates] for intelligent design." Somehow, those philosophical positions seem more descriptively accurate than the label 'creationist.' Maybe there are too many connotations to use 'creationist.' Theowarner (talk) 13:44, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Although it is probably not fitting to explicitly use the label, lacking a WP:RS so labelling him, it is hard to see WP:DUCK leading to any possible inference that he's not a creationist. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 14:05, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

That's true, but I don't think it's our place to affirm it. We present the facts: he has argued for it a few times and inclines towards a position. We need to let the people decide what that means. And wait for a clearer statement. Theowarner (talk) 14:25, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Craig believes "that the universe has an external cause" (Reasonable Faith page 152). He goes on to explain that he believes in a "finely tuned" universe and it doesn't much matter whether evolution existed or not and if it did, it's theistic evolution (pages 193-194). The most succinct explanation of his view is on page 112 of On Guard where he calls it "an end run around evolution". This is distinct from what most people would call creationism - which is associated with a belief that evolution is false. --B (talk) 14:57, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

If he believes that "it doesn't much matter whether evolution existed or not", then why is he a Fellow of an organisation dedicated to 'proving' that it didn't exist (the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture) -- as well as repeating a number of that orgasnisation's talking points in his debate with Ayala? And if he's not a creationist then why does he resort to the generic creationist 'microevolution not macroevolution' talking point? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 15:17, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I would think you could be a member of an organization without believing in everything they believe in. The world is not black and white. As for his debate, is there a transcript so that I can read what he said? I obviously can't offer an opinion to something I haven't seen. --B (talk) 15:40, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

You "think you could be a member of an organization without believing in" the whole point for that organisation existing, whilst mouthing that organisation's claims on that subject? I don't think so. The world may not be "black and white" -- but religious conservatives' thinking generally is. No, I do not have a transcript -- you'll just have to deal with watching it the same way as I had to a few days ago when it was cited at me (see #"critiques of evolution via natural selection" below). Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 16:20, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Even FoxNews has its token liberals and MSNBC has its token conservatives, so I don't see why the Discovery Institute couldn't have its token people who disagree with it. I don't think you can just use your biases about an organization to paint everyone affiliated with that organization. I realize that the outside world may not understand/care about the differences, but Christian conservatives are not a monolithic group - we are individual people with our own opinions about various issues. I will watch the video when I get a chance to see what he said. --B (talk) 16:36, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

" whilst mouthing that organisation's claims on that subject" -- Craig is not a token evolutionist, and the DI is not Fox News. Think tanks (of any stripe) rarely, if ever, have "token people who disagree with it." And conservative Christians very much tend towards eliminationist groupthink -- see Rightwing authoritarianism for the details of the dynamics. Craig walks with, talks like and acts like a creationist -- so I see no reason whatsoever to pretend that he's not one when the subject comes up. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 17:25, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Added + Repaired dead ISBNs

I am curious why some book titles that Dr Craig has been an editor on are missing? For example: Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology Wiley-Blackwell ISBN #1405176571

According to this source from the Evangelical Philosophical Society website, this book is listed under the category "Books by William Lane Craig".

I am not sure whether books that you are an editor in qualify for mention in the bibliography or not. But still I feel that this example alone qualifies for a mention somewhere. Perhaps some may say it doesn't deserve a mention because he is not a significant contributor in terms of authorship to the book. But then the book is a collection writings, so this is hardly surprising. But he is a significant contributor to the book in the sense that he co-edited the book and it is a significant academic work in its own right. Anyway, what do you think? --Andygsp (talk) 01:26, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

I fixed the ISBN links so an admin can remove the notice Cheers (Petersgoldpan (talk) 09:39, 6 July 2011 (UTC))

Is he notable?

I have a general feeling that this article is currently not very complete. I compare it with other articles, such as the one for Bart Ehrman, and I see dissimilarities between the two. I actually think the Bart Ehrman article is far better written, but that's just IMO. What do you think? Does this thing need a re-write? That said, Bart Ehrman has appeared on the Colbert Report, a credible criteria for whether you're notable or not LOL. But seriously, what do you think about the dissimilarities? Theowarner, you're probably the loudest anti-craig person here, so what do you think? --Andygsp (talk) 03:49, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Bart Ehrman is a figure with similar notability to Craig, and he has a well written article, I agree. I think the rewrite should be based on a similar format to the Erhman page. If you want to attempt this, feel free (WP:Bold). Joycey17 (talk) 14:25, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the recent remove of the tag about WLC's notability. He is notable. No doubt about it. Theowarner (talk) 19:23, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Why is he notable: have you found answers to the questions of (i) what exactly WLC is notable for and/or (ii) what third party material there is that demonstrates that he is notable? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 19:41, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Hrafn, I don't believe there's a need to cite a third-party source calling him notable. I'm not sure why the article does not mention his many debates with other notable people such as Gerd Lüdemann, Marcus Borg, Bart Ehrman, Richard Carrier, Paul Kurtz, Antony Flew, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, Peter Atkins, A. C. Grayling, Victor Stenger, and Shelly Kagan, to name only a few. Of course, Polly Toynbee and especially Richard Dawkins categorically refuse to debate him (Grayling refuses to debate him again on meta-ethics), and Dawkins has stated that he is an unworthy opponent whom he "loathes viscerally," but that does not mean Craig does not deserve his own Wiki entry. He most certainly does. 98.91.11.166 (talk) 22:39, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

98.91.11.166: your 'beliefs' have no basis in policy. WP:Notability requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject", so yes, significant third party coverage is required. The article does not at present cover these debates, because nobody can find reliable third-party coverage of them. And the reason that he may "not deserve his own Wiki entry" is NOT because a whole bunch of people think he's loathsome, but because nobody can find significant, reliable independent coverage on him! Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 04:38, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

You'll find references to WLC and his apologetics and debates on the websites and blogs of a number of prominent atheists (Dawkins, Harris, Jerry Coyne, PZ Myers to name a few). All seem to agree that, although he's a douchebag whose arguments don't hold water, he's fairly prominent in the field of public speakers on apologetics. Although blogs aren't generally strong sources, I'd say we have enough evidence from people who are reliable in knowing when an apologist is sufficiently prominent to warrant a specific rebuttal. Dr Marcus Hill (talk) 22:44, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

"...he's a douchebag whose arguments don't hold water..."

If only Dawkins had the courage to defend that contention to Craig's face. Unfortunately he's felt too uncomfortable to debate academics since his rather humiliating exchange with John Lennox. 98.91.11.166 (talk) 23:10, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Such debates value style over substance and are purely entertainment, with little or no scholarly merit. Why should Dawkins want to turn up to such a 'dog and pony show', against an opponent who appears to have little in the way of serious academic gravitas? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 04:44, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

You can dismiss all debates as mere sophistry if you like, but it does not change the fact that, although Richard Dawkins has been been more than happy to debate such intellectual giants as Kirk Cameron and Ted Haggard, he refuses to debate well qualified academics who are abundantly capable of chewing up his poor, tired arguments and spitting them out. He speaks with supreme confidence, but his actions demonstrate that underneath he is a coward. If Dawkins elects not to show up at Oxford's Sheldonian Theatre for the scheduled debate with Craig, then Craig will simply give a philosophical lecture critiquing the abysmal arguments in The God Delusion. You might think William Lane Craig lacks "academic gravitas," but Dawkins' biological background in no way qualifies him as an authoritative voice on the question of the existence of God; Craig's philosophy credentials do. 98.91.11.166 (talk) 07:15, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

(i) Such sources bestow no notability (both on general principles, as self-published sources, and because such sources often poke fun at quite obscure individuals), (ii) per WP:BLPSPS, they may not be used in a BLP about a third party. As such, they're of no help whatsoever. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 04:26, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

The fact that you're still inclined to label Craig an "obscure individual" despite the fact that, as one of the world's foremost apologists for Christian theism, he has engaged so many other "notable individuals" in public debates and has written more extensively than anyone else on the Kalām cosmological argument for the existence of God simply astounds me. If Craig does not meet your notability standards, then no Christian apologists do. 98.91.11.166 (talk) 07:56, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

98.91.11.166 Kindly cease and desist misrepresenting my comments. I DID NOT "label Craig an 'obscure individual'". My point is that (i) "Dawkins, Harris, Jerry Coyne, PZ Myers", etc quite frequently ridicule quite obscure individuals (I can go to their blogs and dig up examples, if you want), (ii) so that the fact that they ridicule Craig is not a sign of notability. And repeated claims that he's "one of the world's foremost apologists for Christian theism" (or variants thereof) are simply worthless argumentum ad nauseam, lacking substantiation in the form of reliable third-party coverage of his activities as an apologist. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 09:20, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

"Kindly cease and desist misrepresenting my comments. I DID NOT label Craig and 'obscure individual'." Your point is well taken, so chill. Sam Harris, whom you mentioned by name and who himself has made no "notable" contributions to any field except popular (i.e., militant, non-academic) atheism, debated Craig at the University of Notre Dame, as I noted previously, on whether science can provide us with a system of moral values (the topic of Harris' recent book, The Moral Landscape, which has been negatively reviewed by both professional philosophers and scientists alike). Would you call this merely "poking fun?" Moreover Craig spanked Harris because of the latter's use of red herrings as well as his evident lack of education and competence in ethics. Hrafn, there is no need for a third-party source labeling William Lane Craig a notable figure deserving his own entry, as his impressive C.V. clearly implies he fits that description. 98.91.11.166 (talk) 23:28, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

There's a wonderful book called A History of Apologetics by Avery Cardinal Dulles. It mentions Craig and thus, I would say that Craig is notable. What is notable, however, is that it mentions Craig as a utterly minor player in a small corner of modern apologetics. Theowarner (talk) 17:04, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Which corner of apologetics would that be? I'm not really that worried by the fact that it only "mentions Craig as a utterly minor player" in it -- at this stage, even third party sourcing as to his shoe size would start to look good. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 17:37, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

[Looks up the book for himself on Google Books] Natural theology, I take it? I suppose I shouldn't be surprised given the relationship between Intelligent design and William Paley. Do you think we can make a sentence or two out of this? I'll be WP:BOLD and make an attempt. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 17:45, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Added it. The reference to natural theology in Dulles however was somewhat indirect -- so I was unable to make mention of it without engaging in marginal WP:Synthesis. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 17:55, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Wow... you did that very well. That's really all we can say, imo. Theowarner (talk) 00:18, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Being described by Sam Harris as "the one Christian apologist who seems to have put the fear of God into many of my fellow atheists" is not notable enough? That was stated during the second installment of "The God Debate" at the University of Notre Dame on 7 April 2011. Here's the video of the debate as recorded by the University of Notre Dame, and here's a transcript of the debate. Objective enough? Maiorem (talk) 02:16, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Of course not. Sam Harris' opinion of Craig does not make Craig notable. Now, I know that's not quite what you mean, but I'm not sure what the factual claim here is. Craig has a reputation among atheists? Well... that's certainly not true because many atheists couldn't care less about Craig. So, Craig has a reputation among some atheists? Well, that certainly is true, but hardly notable. I have a reputation among some atheists. So, I suppose the point would be that Craig has based some threshold of notability among atheists. This may be true, but, were it, we could hardly substantiate based only on Harris' word. There are, of course, contextual issues with the quote that need to be preserved, bias issues considering how much Craig has used this quote in his promotional literature, and, most importantly, the quote simply doesn't substantiate the intended, underlying meaning. For the record, I think Craig is notable so this conversation has already moved passed its intended purpose, but Craig's notability is neither caused by Harris' quote nor substantiated by it. Theowarner (talk) 13:09, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Theo, you are in no position to claim that "many atheists couldn't care less about Craig". Harris, on the other hand, as a prominent representative of his own group, the atheist community, is in a position to make any such claims about Craig, which proves to be the contrary. As I have argued, Sam Harris' opinion of Craig's impact on his community is notable in itself. You are not as prominent as Sam Harris is, thus your claims that "many atheists couldn't care less about Craig" carries no weight or verifiability. If you have indeed taken note of what Harris specifically said, Craig's impact is on "many" atheists, not "some". If there are any, please state the contextual issues with the quote, as the whole debate has been made available on YouTube as well as in transcript, as I have pointed out. Do not merely make up excuses. Also, Craig did not use this quote in his promotional literature; that press release was not from Craig, but the organizers of the Reasonable Faith Tour. Furthermore, if there were issues with the use of that quote, Harris would have been the first person to speak out against its use in the promotional material, but he has never said a word denying it, thus there is no bias issue here. Please explain what is the alleged "intended, underlying meaning", because that appears to me as original research rather than taking the quote at face value. Do not impose your own interpretation of the quote, especially with no evidence to back that view. Maiorem (talk) 17:04, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

"Theo, you are in no position to claim that "many atheists couldn't care less about Craig". I'm not? It would seem to me fairly obvious that many atheists couldn't care less about Craig. I'm not offering it, though, as a factual claim for inclusion in the article. I'm only suggesting it in weighing the significance of the Harris quote. I appreciate your interpretation of the Harris quote, that it is a claim about Craig, but I'm not convinced. I think it's a claim about his e-mail and, more importantly, I think it's probably meant in a complimentary setting. Everyone says something nice about their opponents... I'm not sure we can take it that seriously. Also, I have to say that I don't really think you're conducting yourself in the manner that's assumed of editors here on wikipedia. That said... I think I've made my objections pretty clear but I can restate them here: The quote's meaning is not clear because the quote could be complimentary, more so than accurate. Furthermore, the quote's claim (something like 'many atheists are afraid of Craig') strikes me as being the sort of claim that simply shouldn't be represented on wikipedia. "Atheists are afraid of X" is just an inflammatory statement. Even balanced against some other opinion. I'll think more on it. Theowarner (talk) 02:41, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, Theo, you are not in such a position. That is your own opinion and is tied to my question to you in the other section, for if there are about fifty to a hundred quotes about Craig by atheists, how then could you claim that many atheists couldn't care less about Craig? Your suggestion is worthless if it were simply a matter of your own personal opinion. Furthermore, I did not offer any interpretation of Harris' quote, but merely suggesting a direct quotation of Sam Harris. Obviously the quote is a claim about Craig made by Sam Harris; that is no interpretation. You're not convinced, and? Then what? No, it is not a claim about his email. What you think is unimportant because we're offering a direct quote, not an interpretation, per WP:NOR. I'm not sure I could even take you seriously. Regardless of the quote's meaning, we offer it as a direct quote, void of third party interpretation, along with the context of the quote, such as follows: "During the second installment of the God Debate in the University of Notre Dame, notable atheist Sam Harris described Craig as "the one Christian apologist who seems to have put the fear of God into many of my fellow atheists." Is there any personal interpretation involved in the citation of this quote? Are there any issues to be found? No and no. If the manner that's assumed of editors here in Wikipedia is to be nice to everyone, then I admit that I don't act like that. I act in a fair and objective manner, which may involve direct criticisms against those who are guilty of wrongdoing. And even when the quote is stated explicitly, you still cannot be bothered to recheck the quote and instead opt to misrepresent the quote's claim as "something like 'many atheists are afraid of Craig'" and this is not acceptable for an editor of any kind. Of course "Atheists are afraid of X" is an inflammatory statement, but that does not even come close to what Sam Harris said. Maiorem (talk) 13:33, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, the issues of interpretation emerge by quote-selection, not in added language that we would include. My point is that in selecting this quote, the wikipedia page suggests that it is a fair representation of the atheistic evaluation of Craig. So, is there an interpretation involved in the citation of this quote? Sure. Absolutely. We're assigning it weight. And, I think, undue weight. My point in offering possible interpretations like "atheists are afraid of Craig" is that those are inflammatory interpretations that one might reasonably interpret from the quote were we to use it. Frankly, it is entirely close to what Harris and it strikes me as a reasonable interpretation. Again, your tone and your assumptions about my good faith are not courteous. Theowarner (talk) 14:20, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I do not see your points as valid. Also, I do not see how one might "reasonably interpret" that "atheists are afraid of Craig" from the quote. That is not at all close to what Harris said, and perhaps that might stem from ignorance of the term "fear of God", but that is pure speculation as to how people might utterly misinterpret a phrase. The only way that quote could be interpreted that way is via failure in comprehension. I may not be courteous in that I am direct in terms of my criticisms, but I am not wrong in saying such things. Maiorem (talk) 14:37, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

You don't see "the one Christian apologist who seems to have put the fear of God into many of my fellow atheists" to be a statement about atheists being afraid of Dr. Craig? Really? Theowarner (talk) 14:46, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Of course! If I had to explain this to you, Sam Harris simply meant that Dr Craig has caused many of his fellow atheists to doubt atheism. Can you please explain to me how "the fear of God" could be interpreted as a fear of Dr Craig? Maiorem (talk) 14:59, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

First of all, "doubt atheism" is YOUR interpretation. And second of all, "fear of God" means "really afraid." God is an emphatic and is not necessarily theistic. I think that's part of the wit of the quotation itself. Anyway, I'm going to arrange for dispute resolution. Theowarner (talk) 15:28, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

That interpretation is on the basis of the meaning of "fear of God", which does not mean "really afraid". Please see Wikipedia's article on the Fear of God for more information. The "God" in this phrase is not emphatic. There is no such use of the phrase in the English language or in any other language for that matter; it is an absurd notion and would make absolutely no sense to suggest that "fear of God" refers to "great fear" in the least. Did you take it to mean something along the lines of "God's fear"? If so, that is due to your ignorance of the English language and the use of phrases which occur in the English language. This is a fact and is not meant to degrade you, but to show you where you have erred in your interpretation of this phrase. As such, you are strictly unqualified to comment on any interpretation of any quotes. I would also appreciate that you redirect me to the dispute resolution were it to occur. Maiorem (talk) 15:49, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/put+the+fear+of+God+into Theowarner (talk) 15:57, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Take it in its proper context, please. The debate is theological in nature, and it is irrational to state that William Lane Craig makes atheists scared. Also pardon my ignorance of the use of this phrase in America, as I am neither American nor do I study American English. However, my stand still remains that Sam Harris did not mean that William Lane Craig caused many of his fellow atheists to be greatly afraid. However, even if it were so, then it still stands that it is a direct quote by a prominent member of the atheist community and thus would not decrease its weight in terms of who uttered it, when it was uttered, where it was uttered, under what circumstances was it uttered and why it was uttered. Maiorem (talk) 16:10, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Recent reverts

Please note this revert, along with the series of prior reverts by SPAs. @Maiorem, what consensus? I don't see anywhere this was discussed further, since prior consensus was to remove the material.   — Jess· Δ♥ 19:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

There was no such prior consensus to remove the materials as the relevant sources were not even discussed here. I even brought the matter up to WP:BLPN but even then you have failed to answer to my query concerning the reason as to why those sources were not accepted, and now it is automatically cleaned up so if there is need, you will have to go to the archives to refer to the previous discussion where your silence concerning the issue is noted. Furthermore, three different users (go check the IP addresses if you wish) have agreed, based on the recent reverts, that the removed material has no basis for their removal. Do not talk about prior consensus where there was none. Maiorem (talk) 09:23, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I'd say Reasonable Faith and Closer to Truth are not reliable sources because the former is self-published and the latter is entertainment, not a scholarly source. Apparently Hipocrite agreed at the BLP noticeboard. The current long version of the article is full of primary sources. I agree with Jess and Hipocrite: It's better to have a short, well-sourced article than a long, poorly-sourced one. Huon (talk) 11:54, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

If you're referring to the Reasonable Faith website, then you are correct in saying that it is "self-published", but it is still an acceptable source for WP:BLP under WP:SELFPUB as I have stated before here as well as the WP:BLPN. In addition to that, Closer to Truth is not entertainment. An agreement from a dyslexic user who has zero administrative power and one who embellishes his own page with random nonsense from January to October of 2010 (all his own doing, removing content, inserting content, arguing with himself, etc.) and who has not addressed my statements on the board means absolutely nothing. Maiorem (talk) 14:58, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

WP:RS states: Self-published or questionable sources may be used [...] so long as [...] the article is not based primarily on such sources. If half the article is exclusively based on self-published sources and the other half still features them prominently, with very few truly reliable secondary sources to compensate, that is not acceptable. You have stated your opposition, but it seems you are alone while everybody else who commented agrees on this. And I'd strongly advise you to redact your comments about Hipocrite. You asked for additional opinions at WP:BLPN, you got one, and since you don't like it you now try to discredit it by attacking the user. Not cool. Huon (talk) 15:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Maiorem, please note WP:PA. That type of comment is unacceptable. Consensus was settled on this, and you were told as much when you escalated the problem to BLPN. It's time to drop the stick and move on. Please find reliable, secondary sources, and we can use them to expand the article.   — Jess· Δ♥ 16:06, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

However, according to your reversion, the following sources are ignored without basis: The Evangelical Philosophical Society; The Cambridge Companion to Atheism; The Kalam Cosmological Argument; Closer to Truth; The Tensed Theory of Time: A Critical Examination; The Tenseless Theory of Time: A Critical Examination; Naturalism: A Critical Analysis; God, Time and Eternity; Divine Foreknowledge and Human Freedom: The Coherence of Theism: Omniscience; Contending with Christianity's Critics: Answering New Atheists & Other Objectors; Assessing the New Testament Evidence for the Historicity of the Resurrection of Jesus; Intelligent Design: William A. Dembski and Michael Ruse in Dialogue; and more. Are all these self-published sources? No. Hipocrite's opinions cannot and should not be accepted because he has demonstrated lack of understanding concerning the issue, in addition to the problems which can be observed in his contribution. The user is thus unfit to comment or edit. This is a fair assessment of the individual's ability and not merely an ad hominem which disregards the user's capability in any other field, if any. Both you and Mann_jess need to educate yourselves on what is considered to be a personal attack. Mann_jess, I should not need to remind you about what constitutes a reliable source. Don't just sit there and simply waive all of these off as self-published sources; you need to provide sound reasoning, which is not seen from either of you concerning the removal of such sources. Yes, Huon, you still have not answered concerning Closer to Truth, which you have somehow unreasonably regarded as "entertainment". Maiorem (talk) 16:16, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

The article is well sourced. The characterisation of Closer to the Truth as 'entertainment' and therefore 'not reliable', is joke which merits no serious discussion. The only problem is the 'organizational affiliation' section. I would prefer to have sources from each of those organizations but this seems to be extemely difficult and some do not appear to have websites. However, in general, the article does not rely exclusively on a single source. Secondly, are you seriously saying that a man's CV and his university page are not acceptable sources on Wiki? Where is your evidence for this?HyperEntity

Somebody removed the 'organizational affiliation' sections. Good work. We can add it later when it is better sourced.

Maiorem, please provide (1) reliable secondary source, and the content you wish to include using that source, and we'll discuss it. Your continued disparaging remarks regarding Hipocrite are uncalled for. Please stop.   — Jess· Δ♥ 16:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

All of the materials that you wish to remove. Why no discussion before removal? And here you are talking about "consensus"? I see zero mention concerning the above sources I have listed. In what way are they not reliable? And please refer back to what is considered to be a personal attack. I do not need to repeat myself. Maiorem (talk) 17:01, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Now, for example, out of the ten books cited as references, only five of those are authored by William Lane Craig, while two of them were co-authored with Paul Copan and JP Moreland. Thus their inclusion fits the criteria that "the article is not based primarily on [self-published] sources." Maiorem (talk) 17:13, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm glad you guys are talking about this, but talking while continuing to revert war does not exempt you from the edit warring policy. Protection has been tried as a "warning shot" if revert warring continues the next step is to start blocking the edit warriors and/or place longer and longer protections on the article without regard to the state it is in at the time protection is applied. Note that having consensus on your side is not a valid reason to edit war. The only exemption to the policy is reverting blatant vandalism, which is obviously not what has been happening here. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:38, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. Maiorem (talk) 17:01, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I appreciate all these recent edits... at least we have more content to talk about. I'm concerned that the article is too sycophantic. There's no reason to spend this much time on the Kalam Cosmological Argument, for example. And, I seriously question the entire inclusion of "professional organization." 108.54.52.228 (talk) 17:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, that last comment was me.... could I ask for some clarification over why it's okay for us to source Reasonable Faith? It seems to me that Craig's own website might contain something that we may want to use... but, it also seems obvious to me that Craig's self-interest will bias many of the statements on the website, too. So, it cane be used unto itself... we need to be careful with it, actually... and look at the recent edits, it seems to be being used entirely too much. Theowarner (talk) 17:40, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Because there is no evidence of self-serving bias. Is 6 references to the website too much for you? Maiorem (talk) 17:54, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Maiorem above gave a lengthy list of supposedly reliable sources. Let me break down this list:

• The Kalam Cosmological Argument, The Tensed Theory of Time: A Critical Examination, The Tenseless Theory of Time: A Critical Examination, God, Time and Eternity; Divine Foreknowledge and Human Freedom: The Coherence of Theism: Omniscience and Assessing the New Testament Evidence for the Historicity of the Resurrection of Jesus are all authored by Craig. While they probably are not self-published, they are still not secondary sources.
• Naturalism: A Critical Analysis and Contending with Christianity's Critics: Answering New Atheists & Other Objectors are co-authored by Craig. Still primary sources.
• The Closer to Truth link is not to anything that was on the program itself, making the question whether it's educational or entertainment moot (and I may have been wrong there, although I still doubt the show is a reliable source). Instead, it's the biographical sketch of a "participant". That is not a source independent of the subject, and I doubt there's editorial oversight for participant biographies.
• The Cambridge Companion to Atheism looks reliable to me, and while my revert removed that source, it left the sourced statement, namely that Craig is particularly notable for the Kalam argument, more or less intact with a different source. I wouldn't mind expanding the short version of the article a little and incorporating this source.
• The Evangelical Philosophical Society was claimed as a source, but I could find no reference to it.
• While I'm at it, yes, I am saying that a man's CV at his own university or at any organization with which he is affiliated is not a secondary source and thus should be avoided. My source here is WP:RS, which says: Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Faculty pages and self-published CVs are not third-party sources and do not have a reputation for fact-checking.

In summary, there was just one secondary source, and the basic gist of what it was used for is present in both versions. If no secondary source can be found for any given claim, that claim is probably not relevant enough to be included in the article. Craig is already on the border of notability because there is very little significant coverage in secondary sources; emphasizing primary sources raises problems of undue weight. The same holds for the Reasonable Faith website. Using it for some biographical details, such as Craig's birthdate, is acceptable - but using it more often than all secondary sources combined is highly problematic.

In regard to personal attacks: "Using someone's affiliations as an ad hominem means of dismissing or discrediting their views." Using Hipocrite's dyslexia and his user page edits as an ad hominem means of dismissing his opinion on the reliability of sources (and now even his fitness to edit and comment!) seems to fit the bill. Huon (talk) 19:00, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

• Primary sources can be used for non-interpretive citation of information. WP:PRIMARY states clearly in its policy that "Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source. Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so. Do not base articles and material entirely on primary sources. Do not add unsourced material from your personal experience, because that would make Wikipedia a primary source of that material. Use extra caution when handling primary sources about living people; see WP:BLPPRIMARY, which is policy."
• Ditto
• Personal doubts do not constitute valid reasons.
• Fine.
• The Evangelical Philosophical Society is the very first reference.
• Faculty pages, I would argue, do have a reputation for fact-checking. The allegations that the CV on a particular website is self-published needs to be proven, otherwise it is commonly accepted as published by the university or organisation.

In summary, your discontent towards using primary sources is moot.

Hipocrite's dyslexia is not an affiliation, but an affliction. Please learn to differentiate between the two before making further accusations against me. Indeed, do you even know what is dyslexia and how it affects a person's ability to read? It is also fully justifiable that a person's fitness to edit and comment be judged by his own writing or contributions. Does this bother you? In short, if I want to dismiss or discredit someone's view by using his affiliation, I would point out that X is a Y, therefore his views regarding Z should be dismissed. Obviously, that is not what I did. Maiorem (talk) 19:44, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

The Evangelical Philosophical Society reference is currently misattributed to "Faith, Reasonable" (which by the way seems to be a mistake in the use of the first= and last= parameters of the cite template); that's why I missed it. It's another "author profile" which is not independent of Craig. And while you are correct about the importance of my personal doubts regarding the Closer to Truth show, the point is moot because we do not actually cite the show. Huon (talk) 20:40, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

How do you determine if an author profile is or isn't independent of Craig? We're not dealing with the Closer to Truth show; we're dealing with its website and how it handles information. Same difference. Maiorem (talk) 20:48, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

An author profile is written either by the author himself or by his publisher, neither of which is independent of the author and neither of which is likely to be subject to editorial oversight for such purposes. When Closer to Truth writes about its own authors, it is not a "third party". If you want to, we can ask at the reliable sources noticeboard for confirmation. Huon (talk) 23:00, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

The author's publisher is independent of the author, and your claim that "neither of which is likely to be subject to editorial oversight for such purposes" is unfounded. In addition, regardless if it is independent of the author or even subject to editorial oversight, they remain as viable sources according to WP:BLPSOURCES so long as it is accepted that Closer to Truth is a reliable source. Furthermore, the Wikipedia policy against using primary sources is mainly to avoid original research, as apart from that, there is no other issue with using primary sources. Maiorem (talk) 03:34, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Since we currently seem unlikely to agree, I have asked for community input at the reliable sources noticeboard. Huon (talk) 04:20, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

’'the point is moot because we do not actually cite the show’’

And yet you have a page dedicated to the show: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closer_To_Truth

I have yet to see any evidence that Craig is the author of his profile at Closer to the Truth. CTTT is a TV show which hosts discussions on scvience and phiosopphy. To claim that it is unreliable (based on merely on suspicion) and simply because Craig was a guest there is akin to claiming that a Time magazine article summarising Sam Harris’s work on neuroscience could not be reliable source on the grounds that they interviewed Harris before. If you are concerned that the views expressed in the article do not match Craig’s actual views you can verify them by reading his (cited) books and watching his videos on CTTT. If you are uncomfortable with how often CTTT is cited, please note that virtually every paragraphy is backed up with a reference to Craig’s books.

I’m glad you sent this to the noticeboard but I’m not sure what difference it’ll make. The sections citing CTTT do not rely primarily on it. They employ Craig’s books and so do not violate Wiki guidelines. Even if you remove CTTT, we can still back every statement there with a reference to Craig’s books.User:HyperEntity|HyperEntity]] (talk)

As I keep repeating, articles should be based on "reliable, third-party" sources per WP:RS. Closer to Truth (it's actually not Closer to the Truth; I too got that wrong before Maiorem pointed out my error) is closer to being a third-party source than Craig's books, but it still falls short. (By now three editors at the noticeboard agreed that the CtT profile should be considered unreliable or at best a primary source.) I'm not necessarily uncomfortable with how often we use CtT, I'm uncomfortable that there's nothing better for us to use. Huon (talk) 00:36, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

As I also keep repeating, primary sources are also allowed per WP:RS, the only restriction being no original research. Please explain how Closer to Truth "falls short" of bring a third-party source, apart from your unfounded allegation that it is not independent of the author. Indeed, three editors have voiced similar sentiments, but when pressed to explain, for example, in what way is it lacking as a reliable source (I am thus far even willing to concede that it is a primary source!), they keep silent over the matter. The last such editor even claims that citations of the subject's own books are "OR/synthesis from primary sources", but even the allegation is baseless. As such, there is no reason given to take their position. Maiorem (talk) 03:46, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Just noting that some editors might be "keeping silent" due to WP:SHUN, considering the overwhelming amount of WP:IDHT behavior here. It's been explained why these sources are either unacceptable or incomplete, and why basing the article on primary sources isn't allowed, yet we have two editors who keep coming back to flatly assert they're acceptable. Maiorem, if you're interested in getting a broader opinion on these sources from the community, I'd recommend taking the issue to WP:RSN. You may reject the opinions of editors here, and at WP:BLPN if you wish, but doing so while continuing to argue in this way isn't productive.   — Jess· Δ♥ 03:58, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

It has not been explained why these sources are unacceptable. (Incomplete? Seriously?) As have already been explained, the article is not based entirely on primary sources, thus the use of primary sources in this regard is allowed. Their acceptability is noted by WP:PRIMARY. In case you have not noticed, the issue has already been taken to WP:RSN almost 24 hours ago. Maiorem (talk) 04:15, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Terrific! I hope you will heed the opinions you've been receiving on RSN, which as of yet appear to compliment the advice you've received on this talk page and BLPN. I'll reiterate that the best way to proceed right now would be to find new reliable secondary sources about Craig. All the best,   — Jess· Δ♥ 04:41, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

And you just totally ignored what I have said about WP:PRIMARY. Good job. Maiorem (talk) 04:46, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes I did, because it's already been explained repeatedly. I'm not interested in explaining it again. Please accept that you've received input from editors here, editors on BLPN, and now editors on RSN that the sources are not acceptable for the content to which they apply, and arguing against that consensus is unlikely to do any good. You may disagree with the consensus, but demanding it be explained over and over is tendentious. Please drop the stick, and move on. If you have reliable secondary sources discussing Craig, I'd be more than happy to discuss those. All the best,   — Jess· Δ♥ 06:24, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

What explanation? There is zero explanation coming from you concerning your ignorance of WP:PRIMARY. I asked for one good reason for going against WP:PRIMARY, but so far no one has given any. The only editor other than you and I that contributed to the BLPN discussion is Hipocrite, which, as I have established, cannot qualify, so don't treat one editor's invalidated agreement as "consensus", as you are oft to do. Of the three editors on RSN which are of the opinion that Closer to Truth is not a reliable source, one also opines that the subject's blog is a reliable source for info about himself, which goes against your arguments for not using primary sources. That is why I sought clarification on why they do not treat Closer to Truth as a reliable source, since 1) they have no evidence that Closer to Truth is not independent of the author and 2) it does not go against WP:BLP or WP:RS (specifically, WP:PRIMARY) standards. Thus, no matter the "consensus", if such "consensus" does not comply with the above standards, it should be ignored. So far, Jess, your only defense for this issue is "consensus" but you never addressed the WP standards in context. Also, for your information, WP:STICK is not WP:POLICY, and you of all people should go take a look at WP:TE yourself and not be so hypocritical about it.

Thus, here are the basic questions answered: Do we already have secondary sources discussing William Lane Craig? YES. Can we use primary sources in light of the fact that there are secondary sources which means we're not basing the article primarily on primary sources? YES. Is Closer to Truth a primary or secondary source? IRRELEVANT. Are articles to be solely based on secondary sources? NO. Good luck going against policy!

While you're at it, go and take a look at what consensus ISN'T.Maiorem (talk) 07:11, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Let me repeat: Articles "should be based on reliable, third party" sources per WP:RS (first sentence of WP:RS#Overview). While this article currently has two such sources, it is clearly based on primary sources, which is not acceptable. On primary sources, WP:RS states: "Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources. [...] Primary sources are often difficult to use appropriately. While they can be both reliable and useful in certain situations, they must be used with caution in order to avoid original research. Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors." We have entire sections based purely on primary sources. And:

Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves [...] so long as:

1. the material is not unduly self-serving; [...]
2. the article is not based primarily on such sources.

This is what Wikipedia policy says about primary and self-published sources. Your claim that as long as we have some secondary sources somewhere we are free to use as many primary sources as we want is rather absurd, to be honest.

How about a request for comment? If the editors who disagreed with you somehow all simultaneously misinterpreted Wikipedia policy, surely wider community input would be of assistance? Huon (talk) 07:50, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

In which case you need to brush up your understanding of what a third-party source is. The only sources that are not third-party sources currently in the article are the Reasonable Faith web articles. Closer to Truth is not a primary source, and we have not made any "interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources". No, we do not have entire sections based purely on primary sources. Apart from the Reasonable Faith website, none of the others are self-published sources. Your view of what is or is not absurd is not a valid ground for objection. I'd much prefer one argument like the above which actually touches on WP:POLICY than ten editors simply saying that such a source is not valid without offering any explanation. Maiorem (talk) 08:55, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Your own interpretation of policy is erroneous. WP:RSN has agreed that the Closer to Truth profile is not reliable, not independent of Craig or both. Claiming that books written by Craig are not primary sources on Craig is so obviously wrong that I'm at a loss for words. I'll initiate a request for comment so we may enjoy some additional community input. Huon (talk) 09:48, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

No, your own interpretation of policy is erroneous. See how unhelpful that is? Your assertion of my erroneous interpretation is invalid unless you can somehow explain it. Bear in mind it is some of the editors who wrote on WP:RSN, not WP:RSN itself, that is of the opinion that the Closer to Truth profile is not reliable, but those opinions are not compliant with WP:POLICY as there is zero justification from WP:POLICY for their personal views, which is why I pressed them to clarify further, failing which, it would mean that their opinions are not backed by any existing WP:POLICY and thus cannot be accepted. I never claimed that books written by Craig are not primary sources. With this, I doubt that you are even clear on what third-party sources are, which is why I provided that link in my previous response here. A primary source can also be a third-party source. If that statement sounds wrong to you, then it means you have not clearly understood what a third-party source means. So unless Craig is the publisher of his own books, or if Craig paid for his books to be published, then those books are not self-published (how hard is it for anybody to understand this?) and therefore they are not subject to restrictions on self-published materials. Maiorem (talk) 10:16, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

And here's an update from another section of RSN, with the consensus there being that an individual's resumes and CVs are reliable sources. Maiorem (talk) 02:29, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Not exactly, no. The consensus was that an individual's resume is a primary source, that it can sometimes be embellished and so should be used with caution, but can be used for claims about the subject's education and job history, date of birth, etc. That's not what we're talking about here. Craig's date of birth and education history is still sourced to his CV - no one has contested that. We've contested sourcing large swaths of other content to primary sources such as his CV. That discussion on RSN didn't address that, but the other discussion concerning this article did, and consensus was that it was inappropriate.   — Jess· Δ♥ 03:02, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

As I already pointed out, every paragraph there can be backed up with a reference to Craig’s books. Even if we remove CTT we still have Craig’s books to rely on. I trust his books will be considered reliable sources.HyperEntity (talk)

The first sentence

William Lane Craig (born August 23, 1949) is an American analytic philosopher and theologian.

Right now, this is how the first sentence reads. We have previously had discussions about the inclusion of the word "analytic," but we seem to have moved past that. I think theologian is probably inappropriate as Craig typically differs to theologians on some questions, suggesting that he doesn't view himself as a theologian. I think there's an argument, nevertheless, to be made about whether he is a theologian. My problem right now is: where as the word "apologist" gone? It used to be there. I would argue that Craig is known throughout the world primarily as an apologist and, to a lesser extent, within his own field as a philosopher. An analogy might be drawn between Craig and Dawkins. Dawkins, a biologist, is known primarily for his advocacy of atheism, and within his own field as a biologist. I think the sentence should be edited to this.

William Lane Craig (born August 23, 1949) is a Christian apologist, American analytic philosopher and theologian.

Theowarner (talk) 17:49, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Theowarner, did you know that many theologians have different and sometimes conflicting views? The most recent and obvious case would be Mike Licona vs Norman Geisler, and both are regarded as respectable theologians, so in this regard your argument that to call William Lane Craig a theologian is inappropriate because he "typically differs to theologians on some questions" is obviously false. There is no need for an extensive argument about whether he is a theologian since he has already obtained a Doctor of Theology which certifies him as a theologian. In any case, I am fine with the mention of him as a Christian apologist. Maiorem (talk) 18:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm fine including theologian. Theowarner (talk) 18:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Reasonable Faith describes him as a philosopher and theologian. Biola University describes him as a theologian. Closer to the Truth describes him as a theologian. The EPS describes him a philosopher and theologian. None of these describe him as an apologist. Therefore, I see no reason to add it. However, this article is being edited by almost entirely by antitheists like theowarner who makes YouTube videos ruminating Craig's ability to brainwash children. In the minds of these people, being called an apologist or an Evangelist is an insult. This is why he's determined to add it.

Still, I have no problem with adding it if Theo and friends give us a convincing reason to. However, if added, I will insist that it be placed in following manner:

William Lane Craig (born August 23, 1949) is an American analytic philosopher, theologian and Christian apologist.

This will ensure that readers know that Craig's focuses primarily on philosophy and theology and not on humiliating atheists in debates.

I think who ever made this comment should be ignored entirely. The edit he/she proposes, therefore, is worth ignoring the question before us remains:

William Lane Craig (born August 23, 1949) is a Christian apologist, American analytic philosopher and theologian.

Theowarner (talk) 18:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I'd say that no matter what Craig focuses on, he's primarily known for his apologetics. I'd suggest that the American qualifier, which refers to Craig himself and not to his brand of analytic philosophy, should be moved, though:

William Lane Craig (born August 23, 1949) is an American Christian apologist, analytic philosopher and theologian.

Huon (talk) 19:09, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

On what basis are you claiming that he is known primarily for apologetics? Second, The fact that a person is known for debating people does not by itself make them worthy of an article. Being a successful academic is. Craig is primarily an academic. Known was used here to refer to his 'fame' within the academic world. If this was unclear we can make it clearer.

Someone needs to learn to use those four tildas... I often forget, too. Anyway! I think this is an interesting problem... namely: what is he best known for... apologetics or philosophy? Or course, apologetics is a proper subset of philosophy so it's in a way, it's both. I suppose, though, that this is something that it's almost impossible to answer authoritatively. 1) apologetics or 2) philosophy. Anyone who knows Dr. Craig knows him for his defense of the existence of God primarily, that much should be true. And thought seem to be an apologetic. It's done in a philosophical manner, but so is most of apologetics these days. So... I'm inclined to say apologetics. Let's see what other people say. Theowarner (talk) 20:43, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Claiming 'Christopher Hitchens is a critic of religion' before his work as a journalist or 'Bertrand Russel is a critic of religion' before his philosophical work is absurd. These facts alone does not make them prticularly importnt. Their academic work does.

Well... I'm not so sure. I would say Hitchens probably is known as a critic of religion more so than as a journalist. Russell is probably more a philosopher than a critic of religion, though. I read his history of philosophy long before I was interested in his atheism. And in terms of Hitchens, it is actually his criticism of religion that make him significant, at least, more so than his journalism. Theowarner (talk) 20:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I claim Craig is known for his apologetics on the basis of the article's two secondary sources. One deals with the Kalam argument which certainly belongs to apologetics, and the other is the Fox News piece which focuses on Craig's role as a debater. That's what the secondary sources have to say. If you honestly believe that's not enough to make Craig notable, I won't stop you from proposing the deletion of the article. Huon (talk) 20:55, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

The Kalam argument is also a philosophical argument, and Craig's role as a debater is too vague since debates are not always on apologetics. Maiorem (talk) 03:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

While the Kalam argument covers all three of Craig's proposed designations, his debates as discussed in the Fox News piece are pure apologetics. Huon (talk) 04:10, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. According to the Fox News piece, "In his debates he suggests that the question to ask is not whether science can prove God's existence but rather the philosophy that "science can establish a premise in an argument leading to the conclusion that God exists."" The existence of God is not purely apologetics, but also a philosophical argument. Maiorem (talk) 04:15, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Huon: I don't think a disagreement over putting 'Christian apologist' merits deletion of the article.

With regard to point about Hitchens : This man spent over 40 years as a literary critic and touring the world as a journalist. He is certainly known as a critic of religion (as is Russel) but putting that before his journalism (or Russel's philosophical career) is a grave mistake.

Again, I stress: 'Known' here refers to his 'fame' within the academic community. If this is unclear we can make it so. Hitchens is journalist, Russell and Craig are philosophers. Their work in these areas merits a Wikipedia article. A one time debate with John Shook or Sam Harris does not. I don't deny he is also known for his debates and I am willing to include it. But we need to consider priorities. HyperEntity (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:27, 28 September 2011 (UTC).

Then let me stress again: In order to gauge Craig's fame within the academic community, we would need reliable secondary sources. The secondary sources we currently have point towards Kalam and debates. It is not for us to decide that Craig is famous (even among other philosophers) when there are no sources to that effect. And while a disagreement over wording does not merit deletion, a disagreement on whether there are sufficient sources to support Craig's notability may. And regarding Maiorem's objection: It's hard to imagine a part of apologetics that could not be considered either philosophy or theology. But we can probably agree that the sources supporting Craig's notability focus on his apologetics while his philosophical and theological work outside apologetics is not mentioned. Why be less precise than possible? Huon (talk) 10:18, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Would his debate with Sam Harris at the University of Notre Dame suffice? Or how about his debate with A.C. Grayling? Or his debate with Lawrence Krauss? George Williamson? Peter Atkins? I can list at least 20 more people whom he had debated with on the existence of God alone, and the five arguments that William Lane Craig always presents for the existence of God are all philosophical arguments, not theological arguments. Secondary sources alone are not necessary for gauging his notability within the academic community; his CV speaks for itself. For your information, apologetics does not always involve philosophy or theology; for example, the apologetics of much of the Old Testament is largely based on a study of Ancient Near East sociology, which is neither philosophy nor theology, let alone apologetics from a linguistic aspect. I don't think you know what apologetics actually is. On the other hand, his philosophical and theological works are all within the context of apologetics. Maiorem (talk) 10:55, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Then let me stress again: In order to gauge Craig's fame within the academic community, we would need reliable secondary sources.

The Stanford Encylopedia of Philosophy devotes its discussion of the KCA primarily to Craig's version of it. An atheist philosopher states that Craig's cosmological argument is the most cited argument for God in Western philosophy of religion. Even more than Alvin Plantinga's reformed epistemology argument. These sources are not sufficient to establish notability? Is Fox News now a more reliable source than Cambridge University? — Preceding unsigned comment added by HyperEntity (talk • contribs) 15:14, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Of the sources currently given in the article, the Cambridge source and Fox News are the only reliable secondary sources, and Cambridge is, of course, the better one. Those sources say Craig is notable for Kalam and for his role as a debater; our article should reflect that sentiment. We can't use those sources to establish notablility and then turn around and claim that he's really notable for something else. We also cannot ignore secondary sources when gauging his notability in the academic community as Maiorem suggests; doing so would violate WP:OR, especially WP:SYN, and WP:V. Huon (talk) 01:04, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I am not ignoring secondary sources when gauging his notability; however, you are fixed on the idea that his role as a debater is limited to apologetics; his debates are largely philosophical in nature and not apologetic, even though the two may coincide. Maiorem (talk) 04:05, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Here the Daily Telegraph describes him as a 'renowned philosopher', here Premier Christian Radio describes Craig as a philosopher (Listen to the full clip and you’ll also hear him described as such at Oxford University), here the BBC describes him as philosopher, here the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy discusses the KCA and focuses exlusively on Craig’s version of it, and here it discusses Craig’s work on relationship between God and time. In addition, the Michael Coren show introduces him as a philosophy professor here.

Finally, I should point out that the majority of Craig’s debates are not simply confined to the truth of Christian doctrines but to the general philosophical issue of whether or not God exists. Most of the arguments that Craig uses in these debates can be used by a Jew, a Mormon, a Muslim or a Deist. Now I’m not against putting ‘Christian apologist’. All I ask is that it be put after ‘philosopher and theologian’. In precisely the same manner that Chritopher Hitchens is called a journalist befiore a ‘critic of religion’, just as Noam Chomsky’s work in linguistics earns him the title ‘linguist’ before ‘political activist’ on his wiki page, in the same way that Bertrand Russell is referred to as a ‘philosopher’ before being a ‘critic of religion’ on his Wiki page, I ask that the same standard be applied to Craig.

User:HyperEntity|HyperEntity]] (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:43, 30 September 2011 (UTC).

Per WP:Weight, we need to place the items in order of their prominence. I've gotten stuck on this before too, trying to get an article with a short list in the first sentence reordered a way which seemed more logical, but the community consensus on the matter is that weight is essential, particularly within the lede. If Craig is primarily respected within the sources as (for instance) a Christian apologist, then that needs to come first, regardless of his other affiliations, because that is what he is most notable for (at least for our purposes). Now, as for your sources, I'm not sure "Premier Christian Radio" is a reliable source for this purpose. A podcast like this would generally fit into the same category as a blog, so we shouldn't really be using it as a source. I'm also not sure about "bethinking.org" or youtube videos posted by drcraigvideos, and veengle.com also falls into that category. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is, indeed, a good source, but we can't derive that Craig is "foremost, a philosopher" from that, as it makes no such claim. The telegraph article is the best source of the bunch, and could probably be integrated into the article somewhere. However, I'm not sure it carries enough weight to undermine the other sources we have. I suspect that Craig is most known for his evangelism, and if that is true, then it needs to be how we describe him. On the other hand, I see a lot of descriptions of craig as a "Professor of philosophy", and it may be with the complete lack of sourcing we have on Craig, that's the best we can do for now. I don't know. This would be a lot easier with good sourcing - it's a shame we don't have it.   — Jess· Δ♥ 17:51, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Well he have a source from Cambridge describing him as a philosopher and the Stanford Encyclopedia of philosophy discussing his work. we have the Daily telegraph describing himn as a philosopher and he have Premier Christian Radio (and Oxford University if you listen to the full clip) describing him as a philosopher. PCR is a radio station like any other and the fact that it states Craig is a philosopher (a factual statement) and that it is Christian does not detract from its reliable. On the other side we have Fox News. I don't see the problem here.--HyperEntity (talk) 20:24, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure how there was a miscommunication, but I responded to your list of sources in my reply above, and you just repeated the sources anyway. Some of those are not reliable. Others do not say he is a philosopher.   — Jess· Δ♥ 16:41, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

We have three sources stating that he is a philosopher. You gave no convincing reason for the claim that PCR is not reliable. I think it would be reasonable to put philosopher/theologian before apologist based on these sources.--HyperEntity (talk) 19:27, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Here's an article which refers to Craig as an apologist and not a philosopher. Theowarner (talk) 17:29, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Here is a book review which describes him as a philosopher: http://www.denverseminary.edu/article/five-views-of-apologetics/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by HyperEntity (talk • contribs) 19:44, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

No consensus yet... let's try again

Just edit the tables below.

Table to gather opinions

Your name and your vote

Editor	Apologist or Philosopher first
Theowarner	Apologist
your name	your vote

Table to gather evidence

evidence for either side.

Evidence for Apologist first	Evidence for Philosopher first
http://www.christianpost.com/news/atheist-christian-debate-does-the-judeo-christian-god-in-the-bible-exist-57030/	http://www.christianpost.com/news/science-gives-christians-upper-hand-over-atheists-23538/
cell	cell

Well, if we're gonna be using such sources, might as well include these pieces, too:

• http://www.christianpost.com/news/richard-dawkins-continues-to-refuse-debate-with-christian-apologist-william-craig-56780/
• http://www.christianpost.com/news/apologist-responds-to-bart-ehrmans-critique-of-historical-jesus-48532/
• http://www.christianpost.com/news/renowned-apologist-and-atheist-debate-does-god-exist-37929/

Maiorem (talk) 03:52, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I removed Christian apologist because the citation used does not make that claim. I've already posted five sources stating that he is a philosopher. Add Marojem's link and that makes it six. Craig's work is discussed in encyclopedias of philosophy, journals of philosopher and books by other philosophers. If no one objects I'm going to put Christian apologist after philosopher. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HyperEntity (talk • contribs) 19:12, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Protected again

I've protected the page for a week. Use the time to resolve this dispute. Those who continue to edit war over this article when protection expires will be blocked without further warning. Regards, causa sui (talk) 18:01, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. Maiorem (talk) 18:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Maybe we can start by listing the central issues of contention here. Just glancing at it now, I have several.

1. Referring to KCA as "the most widely discussed argument for the existence of God in contemporary Western philosophy" may be sourced appropriately (although Dr. Smith clearly has an interest in making KCA seem important since he's one of the persons who treats it seriously) but, the article doesn't need to assert it as a fact. There's a difference between asserting that Dr. Smith as made some comment about KCA and asserting that the comment itself is true. It's not our job to agree or endorse Dr. Smith's evaluation. Likewise, even if the claim is factually true (if we could count discussion and measure its wideness) the claim itself hopes to lend Dr. Craig legibly or important, which is also not our business.
2. By mentioning that Dr. Craig is the author of "over 30 books," there seems to be some suggestion that this is, unto itself, a reason for the article. Authoring over 30 books doesn't make Craig notable. However, I would say that authoring one specific book, namely The Kalam Cosmological Argument, makes Craig notable. I've argued in the best at this should be mentioned in opening paragraph. The "over 30 books" seems deeply irrelevant. Compare to Bertrand Russell's page... there is absolutely no need to mention the number of books Russell published in his life time...
3. So, which books should we include in the opening paragraph? There are, at present, four books listed: "The Kalam Cosmological Argument (1979), Theism, Atheism and Big Bang Cosmology (co-authored with Quentin Smith) (1993), Time and Eternity: Exploring God's Relationship to Time(2001), and Einstein, Relativity and Absolute Simultaneity (co-edited with Quentin Smith) (2007)." Clearly, the last three are not prominent books and deserve no place in the opening paragraph. I've heard some conversation about including Reasonable Faith in this opening paragraph. I might be convinced to support including Reasonable Faith (perhaps in conjunction with Dr. Craig's ministry), but hardly these last three.
4. I think the section of Craig's academic background is strong. The Talbot School of Theology is part of Biola University. That should included but other than that, it's very strong.
5. There's a section called "Work." I'm not sure that that's a good name for the section... How about "Major Ideas" or something like that. I would argue that there are only two things that need to be included in this article whatsoever: Dr. Craig's apologetics (his debates would be mentioned here) and his philosophical work on the KCA. Beyond that, everything else is pretty much insignifant (from the level of inclusion here on his artilce.) However, if we're going to open the door to things like Philosophy of Time, then I think we need to be sure that we're including his Reasonable Faith Ministry. This is a balance act, in other words. His philosophy of time work is not equitable to his work on Kalam or his status as an apologist. Frankly, I would prefer keeping the article short and just eliminating the section on Philosophy of Time altogether. And the section on divine foreknowledge, which seems sort of orphaned.
6. I also challenge the sourcing of the philosophy of time and divine foreknowledge sections, too. I doubt that these can be supported using third-party sources. I question Closertotruth.com as a source, too.
7. The section of KCA is a little too involved for me. What makes KCA unique among the cosmological arguments is its use of infinity. That's more or less all we need to say. Spelling it out as a miniature presentation of the argument itself seems to involved. There is a wikipedia page on the argument already, it's worth noting. Also, the POV in the presentation is a little suspicious and seems to presume the success of the argument. I think the best way to clean this up is simply to describe the argument in the most general terms and refer readers to the article on Kalam itself. Theowarner (talk) 18:34, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

1. Please read the statement again; "his defense of the Kalām cosmological argument is the most widely discussed argument for the existence of God in contemporary Western philosophy." It is not the argument itself that is referred to as "the most widely discussed argument", but rather, that statement is referring to William Lane Craig's treatment of the argument. In addition to that, Dr Smith is not involved with the making of this statement; the statement originates from The Cambridge Companion to Atheism, published by Cambridge University Press.
2. That "suggestion" in itself is no grounds for its removal, especially since it is a subjective view from you and not an objective observation. In addition, by listing some of the books he has authored or edited, one can see the nature of his books, and even this is fairly notable among theologians and philosophers.
3. I propose we follow the list provided by his profile on the Reasonable Faith website: The Kalam Cosmological Argument; Assessing the New Testament Evidence for the Historicity of the Resurrection of Jesus; Divine Foreknowledge and Human Freedom; Theism, Atheism and Big Bang Cosmology; and God, Time and Eternity. I would also propose we add "William Lane Craig also wrote articles for professional journals of philosophy and theology, including The Journal of Philosophy, New Testament Studies, Journal for the Study of the New Testament, American Philosophical Quarterly, Philosophical Studies, Philosophy, and British Journal for Philosophy of Science."
4. Fine.
5. Actually, the section on Philosophy of Time is related to the Kalam Cosmological Argument, and the section on Divine Foreknowledge (and it should have been a separate section from Philosophy of Time) deals with Craig's Molinist views, which is a significant point for theologians since Christian theology is branched into Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, etc. and so it is important to make clear his soteriology. The section should more accurately be labeled "Works" rather than "Work".
6. Well of course you will hardly find any third-party sources which state the same since these sections deal with Craig's own views on these matters. Indeed, since you question Closer To Truth, please state appropriate reasons why it should not be considered a reliable source. Is it simply because it is a Christian source that you find it unreliable?
7. The section on the Kalam Cosmological Argument presents the way Craig argues for and defends it. Not every philosopher deals with the Kalam Cosmological Argument the same way, e.g. how Craig has modified the "Hilbert's Hotel" thought experiment for his argument of the impossibility of an actual infinite in relation to the second premise of the Kalam Cosmological Argument. The POV does not presume the success of the argument, but rather the factuality of the argument. If you still feel that there is a POV issue, then by all means introduce counter-arguments which Craig has not addressed. Maiorem (talk) 19:20, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

1. So, accepting your corrections about my reading of the sentence and its origin, my comment remains: the article doesn't need to assert it as a fact. There's a difference between asserting that it was made some comment about Dr. Craig's defense of KCA and asserting that the comment itself is true. It's not our job to agree or endorse an evaluation. Likewise, even if the claim is factually true (if we could count discussion and measure its wideness) the claim itself hopes to lend Dr. Craig legibly or important, which is also not our business. Another way to put this is: "He has made major contributions to the philosophy of religion and his defense of the Kalām cosmological argument is the most widely discussed argument for the existence of God in contemporary Western philosophy" and "He has made major contributions to the philosophy of religion including his defense of the Kalām cosmological argument" make the same point: Dr. Craig has done X. To add to that a comment about how important it is is not the job of this article. Likewise... I just realized that "major contributions" is something I have issue with. "Contributions" is neutral. "Major" is not.
2. I've made a point here about including the words "over 30 books." You're response is that the connotations I describe are just my opinion. I would suggest that I'm not pointing to an arbitrary connotation. I mentioned Bertrand Russell's article which makes no mention of the number of books he's published. You've also suggested including mention of his scholarly articles. I feel like next you're going to want to include his facebook notes. It's simply a question of what that phrase ("over 30 books") is doing in the article. Compare these two sentence: 1) "Dr. Craig is an author and research professor at Talbot." 2) "Dr. Craig is an author of over 30 books and is a research professor at Talbot." What's the difference? Well... clearly the the phrase "over 30 books" is an argument about something... probably about how prolific he is... something like that. Anyway, it's doing something. I'd like to hear your thoughts on what it's doing there.
3. You propose we follow the listed provided on Dr. Craig's website? Is that... utterly biased?
4. Good.
5. Why is it important to establish Craig's soteriology? I should say that I entirely understand his work and contribution to this field. My comment is about the relative important of that contribution to the entire wikipedia page. It may be something that Craig is personally interested in and spends a great deal of his working on... but that doesn't translate into mention on this page. I think that the word "Molinist" is all we need to include.
6. As to why I question closertotruth, well... there are a few reasons. First of all, as was discussed above, the biographical information provided to closertruth comes from the guest (Dr. Criag) and can hardly be treated as third party. Second, when Dr. Craig speaks about his own positions, I question the weightiness of the position. If it doesn't exist anywhere except from his own mouth and writings, it's hard to imagine that we need to include it here in the article. And closertotruth, while Christian, is also uncritical of the information they provide. They are platform for intellectuals to speak. It also seems to be a rather personal project of Dr. Kuhn and seems rather like Reasonable Faith in that regard.
7. I don't think the POV issue in the KCA section will be resolved by presenting the opposing views. In fact, those seem inappropriate for inclusion here. My objection here is several fold. "Craig's primary contribution to philosophy of religion is his revival of the kalam cosmological argument. In The Kalam Cosmological Argument he formulates the argument in the following manner: Everything that begins to exist has a cause of its existence. The universe began to exist. Therefore, the universe has a cause of its existence." I would insert a phase like "which is a cosmological argument from the impossibility of actual infintities." But, okay... I can accept it as it stands. I may nudge it some way as it still leaves me with the feeling that the article endorses it, but I can set that aside for the moment. Theowarner (talk) 20:00, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Interesting that you consider the Smith quote unimportant but has no problem with including the fact that Craig is a member of Discovery Institute. You insist that we shouldn't put anything in the article that portrays Craig in a positive light. Please look at the following articles on these philosophers and pay attention to these quotes:

Hilary Putnam: '…has been a central figure in analytic philosophy since the 1960s, especially in philosophy of mind, philosophy of language, philosophy of mathematics, and philosophy of science.[2]

Saul Kripke: Since the 1960s Kripke has been a central figure in a number of fields related to mathematical logic, philosophy of language, philosophy of mathematics, metaphysics, epistemology, and set theory. Kripke has made influential and original contributions to logic…

Richard Rorty: Rorty is one of the most widely discussed and most controversial of philosophers of recent years,[14] and his works have provoked thoughtful responses from many well-respected philosophers.

Wilfrid sellars: He is widely regarded both for great sophistication of argument and for his assimilation of many and diverse subjects in pursuit of a synoptic vision.

Bertrand Russel: He is considered one of the founders of analytic philosophy…and is widely held to be one of the 20th century's premier logicians.[2]

Ludwig Wittgenstein: Bertrand Russell described him as the most perfect example of genius, "passionate, profound, intense, and dominating",

Now according to you we should not give credit where credit is due. We should not claim that these are all important figures in their fields (even if the claim is well sourced). Instead we should delete these claims because it is not our job to state that X has made major contributions to such and such field. Why? I'll respond to your other points later Theo.HyperEntity (talk

Again, I would appreciate it if you would focus your response on the comments I make about the article and not focus on me as a person. That will help us to build the best article possible. And, you mischaracterize me saying that I consider the Smith quote unimportant. My actual comment was: "the article doesn't need to assert [Smith's claim] as a fact. There's a difference between asserting that Dr. Smith as made some comment about KCA and asserting that the comment itself is true. It's not our job to agree or endorse Dr. Smith's evaluation. Likewise, even if the claim is factually true (if we could count discussion and measure its wideness) the claim itself hopes to lend Dr. Craig legibly or important, which is also not our business." Could you respond to that comment? Theowarner (talk) 21:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

The reply dealt with your comments. Your argument, as far as I understand it, is that if we put this quote it will make Craig 'look good' and you don't like it when the article makes Craig look good. My reply is threefold. First, I cited a number of Wikipedia articles where similar statements exist. Consider the following quotes from these wiki pages:

Stephen J Gould: He was also one of the most influential and widely read writers of popular science of his generation.[1]...and has received wide praise for his book Ontogeny and Phylogeny. Gould's greatest contribution to science was the theory of punctuated equilibrium.

Albert Einstein: Einstein is often regarded as the father of modern physics and one of the most prolific intellects in human history.

Out the list I cited, one was selected by Wiki editors as among the best articles here, at least one of them was voted a good article, and all of them are well sourced. Unless you give an account of why we should treat Craig differently from other academics on Wiki we'll keep it.

Second, your subjective reaction to a factual proposition is not, by itself, good enough to change said proposition. Third, you did not have problem putting the (rather rude) Krauss quote about Craig nor did you have a problem putting the Avery Dulles quote stating that one of Craig's books led to a resurgence of philosophical theology in Evangelical circles. Based on these facts I suspect your motivations are more than an honest concern about the 'objectivity' of the article.HyperEntity (talk)

1. Your contention would be with Cambridge University Press then. Your assertion that "the claim itself hopes to lend Dr. Craig legibly or important" is your personal subjective view and does not contain objective arguments against the claim's inclusion.
2. Slippery slope. So what if Bertrand Russell's article makes no mention of the number of books he's published? In this case we have a source for that claim. I already stated many times (ironically) that I do not wish to repeat myself. Previously, I have said "In addition, by listing some of the books he has authored or edited, one can see the nature of his books, and even this is fairly notable among theologians and philosophers."
3. How is following the list provided on Dr Craig's website biased in any way? Also I would like your input concerning the listing of the journals he has contributed to.
4. Skipped to next issue. I already said that I do not wish to repeat myself. Craig's soteriology is important information to Christians and other theologians. It is not simply a matter of personal interest, but they are part of his professional works both as a philosopher and as a theologian.
5. Can you prove that the biographical information provided on the website comes from the guests themselves? Can you prove that Closer to Truth is uncritical of the information they provide simply because it is a platform for intellectuals? It being a personal project of Dr Kuhn, regardless if it is true, would not make it similar to Reasonable Faith, or are you able to show what similarities there are?
6. The phrase which you propose be included has already been addressed in the defense of the premises, so it would be redundant to include it again, and because it is not part of the premises, but an established fact which is drawn upon by the premises. Your personal feelings, as I may have mentioned before, are irrelevant. Maiorem (talk) 20:45, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

1. "Your contention would be with Cambridge University Press then. Your assertion that "the claim itself hopes to lend Dr. Craig legibly or important" is your personal subjective view." Okay. Can you tell me what you think that claim is doing in the article? Theowarner (talk) 21:19, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Simple: to state a fact. Maiorem (talk) 21:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

With no connotations?Theowarner (talk) 21:30, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Any connotations that may be derived from the inclusion of the statement is subject to the readers' own interpretation. The fear of connotations is not a valid reason against the inclusion of any statement. Maiorem (talk) 04:10, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

1: Smith’s claim was based on a review of the philosophical litrature regarding the existence of God. This is his job as professional philosopher. If you think his claim is false, please review the entire litrature yourself and present us with your findings. Until then, we’ll leave it as it is.

[And yes: It’s not your business to present Craig as a major philospher of religion because you’re a deeply biased man (and frankly, given your YouTube record, shouldn’t even be allowed to edit this article)].

2 & 3: The purpose of this article is present factual and enlightening information about Craig. The opening states that he’s edited and written over 30 books. This, combined with the fact that his work is highly cited shows that a respectable academic. Similar facts are presented on the pages of many other philosophers and academics, and there is no reason not to mention here. Craig (like Swinburne, Plantinga, Lewis and Rorty) merits a wikipedia article and whatever images leap to your mind when you see that sentence is not our problem.

As for what books to include, I think we should include important works (the Craig/Smith book is widely cited and is a standard textbook on the relationship between God and Big Bang Cosmology). We should also include edited works. I think the edited book by Craig and Smith is OK as it emphasises Craig’s work in philosophy of time. I’m open to suggestions but I feel we should add books that support the line: ‘’He is known for his work on the philosophy of time and philosophy of religion.’’

5. What’s wrong with work? He works on philosophy of time and religion. What’s the problem?

6.The propositions sourced from CTT are backed up with references to Craig’s books. On what basis are you challenging it?

7. If you don’t like the POV we can open a criticism section next to the argument. This would make article too long so I suggest leaving it as is. HyperEntity (talk

(1) The first point I made was about the inclusion of the phrase “"the most widely discussed argument for the existence of God in contemporary Western philosophy.” There seems to be some disagreement about who is the source of this sentence. It was, I thought, Dr. Quentin Smith, but I'm not sure now. Maybe someone can clear that up for me.... I don't own a copy of The Cambridge Companion to Atheism. At any rate, you're response to me was that the claim was based on his evaluation of the literature and that I needed to produce evidence that it was false. If you recall, I said: “even if the claim is factually true (if we could count discussion and measure its wideness) the claim itself hopes to lend Dr. Craig legibly or important, which is also not our business.” So, you're response is ultimately non-responsive. I am accepting that the claim may be factually true. However, my concern is that it connotes something that we don't need to connote, namely that Dr. Craig is important. There's a phrase that's worth including here... res ipsa loquitor. The thing speaks for itself. To say that Dr. Craig is the author of the KCA is enough because it speaks for itself. If we then come in and add something to that, like an evaluation, we're stepping over a line that we're not supposed to. (2 & 3) I'm glad that you said that the purpose of this page is to “present factual and enlightening information about Craig.” I'm actually not sure I agree with that. I think the purpose is more like: what you need to know about Craig. The difference is that you would accept anything factual and/or enlightening. I think your standard is not qualitative and certainly opens up the door for the inclusion of all sorts of information that really should not be included, like Daniel Dennett's comments on Craig. But, on the point, this section of conversation is about the phrase “over 30 books” and which books to mention in the opening paragraph. Your point seems to be that the fact that he has published over 30 books “shows that a respectable academic,” and I think you mean “respected.” So, on its surface, this is not true. Many people have written 30 books and are not respected because of it. Likewise, it's not our job to demonstrate that Craig is respected. I think our job is to point readers to the information they need without commenting on it. We have included a complete bibliography and if its not complete, I definitely recommend we fill it out. That's really all we need to do. On the other hand, we may want to highlight one or two books as the most important. It's a way of indicating to our readers that if they start with a certain book, they will be make large steps towards what they need to know when it comes to understanding the significance of Dr. Craig. In this sense, The Kalam Cosmological Argument seems like an obvious first pick. And then Reasonable Faith if we need a second. Books that Craig has edited, as you suggest, are hardly essential to understanding Dr. Craig. (5) I have called into question the relative importance of Dr. Craig's work in the philosophy of time. Again, this is measured against the overall length of the article, how long it should be, and Dr. Craig's importance. That is to say: if the article is 1 paragraph long, do we mention Time? If it is 5 paragraphs long, do we mention Time? Is his work on Time part of what makes Dr. Craig important? Now, I express these rhetorically. In general, my claim is that his work in Time is not what makes Dr. Craig important. If he had done nothing else, we wouldn't even have a page on him. So, since we have a page for other reasons, do we need to include Time? I would say 'yes' but we don't need to elaborate on it like we have. I think one sentence ought to cover it. (6) I have challenged CTT has a source on the grounds that is (a) one person's project and (b) uncritical. Also, biographical comments on CTT almost certainly come from the guests themselves (from Dr. Craig) and so can't be read as a third party comment. (7) I mentioned this already but I'll repeat it here: “I don't think the POV issue in the KCA section will be resolved by presenting the opposing views. In fact, those seem inappropriate for inclusion here. My objection here is several fold. "Craig's primary contribution to philosophy of religion is his revival of the kalam cosmological argument. In The Kalam Cosmological Argument he formulates the argument in the following manner: Everything that begins to exist has a cause of its existence. The universe began to exist. Therefore, the universe has a cause of its existence." I would insert a phase like "which is a cosmological argument from the impossibility of actual infintities." But, okay... I can accept it as it stands. I may nudge it some way as it still leaves me with the feeling that the article endorses it, but I can set that aside for the moment.” Theowarner (talk) 20:30, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

HyperEntity, given your propensity for both ad hominems and ridiculously mean-spirited participation, I propose that your IP address be banned outright from editing this article. I am ignoring your comments. Theowarner (talk) 19:19, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Right, since you guys have never engaged in ad hominems throughtout the history of this article. You have a personal intersst in making this article look bad. Drawing attention to this fact is important. Having someone to counteract your influence is important. Other than that, I think my comments were pretty much on topic. You are also free to ignore me but I'm not going anywhere. I am prepared to work constructively to improve this article. This is in accordance with Wikipedia guidelines which encourage cooperation. If you aren't interested in cooperation you will be violating those guidelines. I've seen many cases where people tried to do what you're trying to pull here. They ended up banned. Don't be one of them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HyperEntity (talk • contribs) 19:38, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Okay, hyperEntity, if you claim to be "prepared to work constructively to improve this article," I will give you the benefit of the doubt. I must say that when you say "you guys," you seem to be point the finger at someone for something... And you're accusation that I'm a "deeply biased man" is certainly not going to foster the sort of cooperation you claim to be interested in. I'll respond to your comments now. Theowarner (talk) 20:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

1. The relevant portion of The Cambridge companion to atheism is available online at Google Books. Smith says: "Nonetheless, a count of the articles in the philosophy journals shows that more articles have been published about Craig's defense of the Kalam argument than have been published about any other philosopher's contemporary formulation of an argument for God's existence." To me that's sufficient to mark Craig's KCA as "the most widely discussed argument for the existence of God in contemporary Western philosophy", and Smith seems enough of an expert that we don't need to qualify his published statement - unless there are reliable sources disputing the claim?
2. I don't have any problem with stating the number of books Craig has authored. For a notable football player we would state the number of games he has appeared in, for actors we routinely provide a filmography or, at the very least, give the number of films; why should an author's total output not be mentioned? This seems a non-controversial factual statement, and for those even primary sources would suffice if no secondary source ever bothered to count Craig's output.
3. I see no need to mention any book except Kalam in the opening paragraph. It's the only book mentioned in our secondary sources; mentioning others would raise issues of undue weight.

Regarding Theowarner's points 5 and 6, I agree with him. The lack of secondary sources on such subjects as the philosophy of time shows that those aspects of Craig's work are not notable, and a short one-sentence mention should suffice, if we need to mention them at all.

Regarding our coverage of KCA: Since the KCA article has an entire section devoted to Craig's version of the argument, we need not go into detail here. This article is about the man, not about Kalam. For comparison, Antony Flew developed the No True Scotsman fallacy, and the article provides no more than a link.

In general, I have a problem with the lack of secondary sources. This lack has been discussed here before, and consensus at that time was to trim whatever did not have third-party sources. WP:RS also states that articles should be based on third-party sources. Currently this article largely isn't, and we should remove those parts. Huon (talk) 23:34, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I would have no problems if you want to reduce the number of books mentioned in the first paragraph down to just Kalam. However, I would suggest that a list of his publications be included in the External links section.

Perhaps Craig's work on the philosophy of time and divine foreknowledge may not be notable among laypeople, just as Rickey Henderson is not notable to a nation that does not care for baseball. However, his works are indeed notable among fellow philosophers and theologians, as you can see for yourself from this review of one of his books on the philosophy of time and divine foreknowledge.

As I have pointed out over and over again, primary sources are allowed so long as there is no original research and the article is not entirely based on primary sources. Furthermore, WP:RS simply states that "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources". I believe I have also cited the policy of WP:PRIMARY. Thus, the "consensus" to remove any part which does not have third-party sources is invalid as it is not according to policy. Maiorem (talk) 04:10, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm all for an external link to Craig's complete bibliography. I still disagree on both the primary sources and the notability issue, though. The very first sentence of WP:RS#Overview reads: Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. In a section above, Maiorem argues that the reason for requiring third-party sources is is mainly to avoid original research. There are at least two additional reasons: To establish notability (and the article currently does a poor job of that) and to avoid undue weight. Basically, we need third-party sources to judge which parts of Craig's work are notable enough to be mentioned and which are not in order to avoid writing a biased, non-neutral article. We need not use sources for laypeople - we have Smith pointing out the importance of Kalam. But "reliable, third-party" is a requirement.

Amazon has a vested interest in selling the book and is thus likely to provide only positive editorial reviews; I don't think those snippets are helpful. Matters might be different if we could dig up the complete reviews, but even then the parts published on Amazon deal rather narrowly with the book itself and do not actually address Craig's significance in the field of philosophy (or theology?) of time. Huon (talk) 04:49, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

So, the published reviews by John R. Lucas, Wolfhart Pannenberg, Don Page, Quentin Smith, Robert Russell, and George Ellis are not helpful? They do not deal with Craig's significance in the field of philosophy or theology? Have you even read the reviews? Here's what Quentin Smith said in his review: "William Lane Craig is one of the leading philosophers of religion and one of the leading philosophers of time." You are free to doubt Quentin Smith and his expertise, but those are, once again, not valid grounds. Maiorem (talk) 06:00, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, if the only place those reviews are published is Amazon or other bookstores, which are hardly known for fact-checking but for commerce, they are not helpful. I tried to find a reliable source for the Smith quote and failed. Huon (talk) 10:46, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually, those reviews are in the book itself. That is why you can see almost every online bookstore carrying this book putting up these reviews. As the publisher is not tied to Quentin Smith in any way, the book should count as a reliable secondary source for the Quentin Smith quote. Maiorem (talk) 11:08, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Uh, no, sorry. You can ask the reliable sources noticeboard if you doubt me, but a sales blurb is not a reliable secondary source. Huon (talk) 11:12, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Those are not sales blurbs. Please understand the difference between sales blurbs and reviews. Maiorem (talk) 11:26, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Michael C Rea is a Professor of philosophy at Notre Dame Unversity. Here he describes Craig’s work in philosophy of time as extensive and influentional.

I decided to run some of Craig’s books on philosophy of time on Google Scholar and came up with 200+ citations in total. Not all his work obviously. Not the dozens of papers he’s published in peer reviewed journals. Just the books on philosophy of time listed in the bibliography (and I’m not sure if you’ve included the full bibliography either). After that I ran The End of Faith by Sam Harris and The Moral Landscape also by him. In total less than 130 citations.

I’d be grateful if somebody could explain to me why a professor of philosophy who is cited in academic journals is not worthy of two paragraphs expounding his work in technical philosophy while a book like The Moral Landscape which has 22 citations (almost none of which are in peer reviewed journals) is considered worthy of its own page. Why does Sam Harris have an obscenely long page dedicated to expounding his (pretty bizarre) views on religion in The End of Faith when Craig’s Theism, Atheism and Big Bang Cosmology (which turns 110+ citations on Google Scholar) is not worthy of nine different sections? HyperEntity (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:18, 28 September 2011 (UTC).

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, and I agree that the Harris article could do with some removal of stuff without secondary sources. The Moral Landscape seems to have about as many reliable secondary sources as Craig, if not more, but the article could probably also do with some shortening. If people there argue that paragraphs based only on primary sources are OK, feel free to summon me. Huon (talk) 01:21, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, how about WP:RS, which is totally fine with the use of primary sources so long as there is no original research based on those primary sources? Maiorem (talk) 04:09, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I also have no problem with you want reduce the list of books. With regard to the point about the KCA not needing a section because it already has its own page: We can draw an analogy between Hilary Putnam's multiple realizability argument and semantic externalism, Rorty's critique of the correspondence theory of truth, Fodor on functionalism etc.

Each of these has its own page yet there is a section of the philosopher's page providing a brief overview of his work. If you look at Stanford Encyclopaedia of Philosophy's discussion of the KCA, it focuses almost exclusively on Craig's version of it. When we note that this the most widely discussed theistic argument I think it clearly merits own section. HyperEntity (talk)

Edit request from LikeLakers2, 27 September 2011

Null edit to purge page and remove from Category:Wikipedia pages with incorrect protection templates, please. LikeLakers2 (talk | Sign my guestbook!) 19:43, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

On what basis are you purging this page? If you do, it'll be put back. Best discuss matters before making rash decisions eh? — Preceding unsigned comment added by HyperEntity (talk • contribs) 19:49, 27 September 2011

If you read the edit request, you'd know. LikeLakers2 (talk | Sign my guestbook!) 19:54, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Also, the request is likely to be done by an admin anyway. LikeLakers2 (talk | Sign my guestbook!) 19:55, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Null edit made by Causa sui. Huon (talk) 02:04, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

RfC: Primary sources

Does the article currently rely too much on primary sources? Should sections which are based only on primary sources be shortened or removed? Huon (talk) 10:27, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

• No, (October 12, 2011) Dependence on primary sources is heavy. Yet, Craig seems to be becoming more notable even as we discuss his notability. In such cases, we should seek to find secondary sources which help. Wikipedia readers will be served if we can help them know more about the intensive dialogue taking place because of this new group of Christian apologists. We will always need more evidence that shows a person to be notable. If all we have are sources with Craig listed as one of the authors, then we need to keep searching. Craig associates with other well-known Christian apologists. Their notability seems to help establish his notability. Other questions: How many people have attended a meeting where Craig has been on a debate? How many notable opponents has he debated? How many notable Christian apologists have shared the stage with Craig? If he is favorably reviewed in a non-aligned Christian journal, is that a reliable secondary source. I am thinking of the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society (JETS). He has been both published and reviewed by JETS. In Evangelical circles, this seems to establish a certain notability. (responding to a random rfc.)DonaldRichardSands (talk) 12:12, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Maiorem and I disagree on how to apply WP:RS and WP:PRIMARY to this article. In my opinion, the article currently has just two reliable third-party sources, namely The Cambridge Companion to Atheism and a Fox News article. The other sources all fall in one of the following categories:

• Craig's website Reasonable Faith: Primary source.
• Books authored by Craig: Primary sources.
• The apologetics315 blog: No indication of fact-checking or of editorial oversight; not a reliable source.
• YouTube: User-submitted content, not a reliable source.
• A selection of Craig biographies by organizations with which Craig is affiliated, by his employers such as Biola University or the TV show Closer to Truth, or by organizations of which he is a fellow such as the Evangelical Philosophical Society, the Discovery Institute or ISCID. Since these organizations write about one of their fellows or employees, they are not independent of Craig and are not third-party sources. Also, such author profiles are not known for fact-checking and are probably not subject to editorial oversight. The reliable sources noticeboard agreed with my stance on such sources.

Thus, major parts of the article are currently based on primary sources. While Maiorem contends that we need to avoid only original research, WP:PRIMARY actually says that "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. [...] [P]rimary sources are permitted if used carefully. Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided." Having entire sections based on nothing but primary sources is thus in conflict with WP:PRIMARY; we should shorten the articles and either condense such sections or remove them entirely. Huon (talk) 10:27, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I need to remind everyone that the reliability of YouTube videos is dependent on the user and cannot be generalized. In addition, of the two YouTube videos referenced in the article, one simply shows William Lane Craig making the statement that he does not fully endorse Intelligent Design, while the other is to simply show that he has debated Daniel Dennett. YouTube videos cannot be denied as a reliable source simply on the basis that they are user-submitted content.

Saying that the Apologetics 315 blog has "No indication of fact-checking or of editorial oversight" is not a valid argument unless proof of such allegation is given.

This is the third time I'm telling you to go and read and understand what a third-party source is. Biographies by employers or by organizations are independent of Craig and are third-party sources. Allegations that "such author profiles are not known for fact-checking and are probably not subject to editorial oversight" are unfounded. Of the contributors to the reliable sources noticeboard, only one of the editors, Nuujinn, states his opinion that the publisher is not independent of the author; a second editor, Brmull, simply states that the Closer to Truth author profile "wouldn't be a RS for BLP", while going on to say that "ordinarily the subject's blog would be a RS for info about himself", in which case the subject's blog is even more personal than the Closer to Truth author profile, though he has mistakenly referred to the Reasonable Faith website as a blog; meanwhile, Hullaballoo Wolfowitz treats Closer to Truth as "self-sourcing" and states that "the profile is far from an ideal source for the material it is cited for" yet at the same time he says that "it is better than similar citations to the subject's own books" so he does not claim that Closer to Truth is not a reliable source. Thus, Huon, you should not misrepresent the reliable sources noticeboard by making the egregious claim that they "agreed with [your] stance on such sources". And I almost forgot that one more editor, Andrew Lancaster, states the following:

To me it seems possible to sometimes use such author notes, but it is not ideal. I think that it makes sense to treat it like information on an author's webpage (indeed author's webpages are often based on the same types of texts that appear on their books) and indeed the main thing to be careful of then is to avoid anything un-duly self-serving or promotional. It seems better than nothing.

So, there you have it. Maiorem (talk) 15:05, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

• Yes, remove primary source material - Yes, this article relies too much on sources that are authored by the subject of the article. The WP policies indicate that primary sources (by the subject) are discouraged ... see WP:Primary sources and WP:Secondary sources. Although primary sources are not outright prohibited, they should be used sparingly, usually as a supplement to secondary sources (e.g. a quote from an autobiography to illustrate a point made by a historian). The fact that this article is 90% heavily based on primary sources is plain fishy. It smacks of WP:SELFPROMOTE, WP:Conflict of interest, and WP:SPAM. Look at it this way: If there are more secondary sources available, remove the primary-source material, and use the 2ndary. If there are not more secondary sources, that means the material has not been commented upon by others, thus it is not encyclopedic material, and should be removed. --Noleander (talk) 15:35, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

It is not true that the article is 90% based on primary sources. Out of the 32 references cited, only 13 of them are considered primary sources: 6 references from the Reasonable Faith website, 5 references from books that are authored by William Lane Craig, 2 references from books co-authored by William Lane Craig; that's only 40.625%, if you want to be precise. Even then, 3 of the references from the Reasonable Faith website are redundant for their purpose, i.e. to list the debates that William Lane Craig had been involved in, so once we remove those three redundant references we are left with 10 references from primary sources out of a total of 29 references, which makes it less than 34.5%. Mathematics, ladies and gentlemen. Also, by your reasoning in your last two sentences, primary sources would never be used at all, which is not WP:PRIMARY. Maiorem (talk) 17:03, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Regarding your latest edit, Noleander, what makes the article "heavily" based on primary sources when the primary sources only constitute about 40% of the total number of references? In case you do not know, 40% is less than half. Also, regarding your citation of WP:PRIMARY, it says in the policy section "Do not base articles and material entirely on primary sources." Even if the article is "heavily" based on primary sources it is not policy to remove primary sources. Directing us to WP:Primary sources and WP:Secondary sources suggests that you have not understood them yourself, because they both redirect to the same policy. Meanwhile, primary sources are not necessarily required to act as a "supplement" to secondary sources; nowhere in the letter or the spirit of WP:PRIMARY indicates this. In addition, we have already arrived at a consensus about the notability of William Lane Craig, so citing WP:SELFPROMOTE at this point is rather counter-productive. Citing WP:CONFLICT is also too vague and unhelpful. Accusing this article of WP:SPAM is unfounded. Maiorem (talk) 17:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

WP is a tertiary source, thus good WP articles summarize secondary sources, not primary sources. Relying on autobiographical information is unprofessional and unencyclopedic. When an editor picks-and-chooses material from primary sources, they are synthesizing (see WP:SYNTH) and the product of their editing is, invariably WP:Original research. See also Cherry picking, which is what happens when primary sources are used. This article appears to be self-serving per WP:SELFPROMOTE. The fact that you are spending lots of time typing-in detailed replies on the Talk page, when you could be researching 2ndary sources on this topic, and improving the article, is telling. --Noleander (talk) 18:12, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Kindly refer back to WP:PRIMARY, under the Policy of Tertiary sources:

Reliably published tertiary sources can be helpful in providing broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources, especially when those sources contradict each other.

You are in no position to speak of what a "good" WP article should or should not contain if you are not following WP:POLICY. Unless WP:POLICY or WP:PRIMARY or WP:BLPPRIMARY states it, your opinion that "Relying on autobiographical information is unprofessional and unencyclopedic" is good for nothing and does not refer to anything under WP:POLICY.

I suggest you go and read up on WP:SYNTH yourself to know what is and isn't synthesizing. Based on WP:SYNTH, synthesis is combining material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Do not introduce your own definition of synthesis which is not supported by WP:SYNTH and then cite it; you are ironically undermining your own exhortation and in fact what you are doing is synthesis of WP:SYNTH. Understand what original research means, which, as defined by WP:OR:

The term "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published source exists.

Again, ironically, you are guilty of cherry picking yourself when you attempt to hand-pick "facts" to drown other information, giving a false impression that your particular bias is well-supported. Cherry picking can happen with any source, not just primary sources, and the use of primary sources does not entail cherry picking. Refer to what is not a coatrack.

That last sentence of yours does not deal with anything about WP:POLICY (in fact, your arguments are totally devoid and ignorant of WP:POLICY thus I will not respond to that in detail. Maiorem (talk) 19:27, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Maiorem, I'd just like to point out that you are combatively arguing with every editor who's weighed in on this issue, on this talk page, BLPN, RSN, and now this RfC. You may wish to reflect on whether that approach is likely to result in support of your views. Instead, you may find that taking a short break and letting others comment on this RfC, then returning later to reflect on the discussion as a whole, might be more productive. That's all I'll say on the matter. All the best,   — Jess· Δ♥ 20:20, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I would also like to point out that I am arguing on the basis of WP:POLICY of which almost none of you adhered to. Don't even bring up BLPN. While it is not of my concern if my arguments are an effective rhetoric in making others support my views, let it be known that I am working from WP:POLICY, as it is the duty of WP editors, and having any number of people, you included, comment on the matter in blatant disregard of actual policies is not productive at all, if not counter-productive. Now, either argue from the letter or the spirit of WP:POLICY and prove my objections and arguments invalid, or else you are not contributing anything meaningful. I also want to point out to anybody wishing to comment that being able to include WP:THIS or WP:THAT in your comments does not mean that you understood those policies; display your understanding by citing the relevant parts and relate it to how it affects the subject. I will not hesitate to point out failure or ignorance of such policies, and I expect others to do the same for me if I do make such mistakes. This is for the betterment of the editing of WP articles and I trust each one of you to be honest enough with yourselves. Maiorem (talk) 20:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Jess is right. Wikipedia's collegial atmosphere of cooperation and mutual respect is essential to building the encyclopedia, and so conducting yourself toward other editors in a respectful and civil manner is not optional. Your input and opinions are welcome, but your belligerent behavior on this talk page and elsewhere absolutely is not. I suggest you review Wikipedia's core policies, especially civility and etiquette - policies which your behavior here makes clear that you are in no position to lecture others on. I strongly urge you step away from this dispute and allow others to weigh in and discuss the matter without your response to every thread and comment. Regards, causa sui (talk) 02:58, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to answer two point raised by Maiorem: Firstly, the apologetics315 blog should be considered reliable unless and until proof is offered that it is not reliable. (He argued along similar lines at other times, too.) This is wrong. WP:RS says that blogs are largely not acceptable. WP:BURDEN says that the burden of evidence rests with the editor who wants something included. If Maiorem wants to argue that the apologetics315 blog is one of the comparatively rare blogs which do count as reliable sources, it is he who would have to show some evidence to that effect. Secondly, I am to have misrepresented the WP:RSN replies. Brmull said the profile was not reliable. Nuujinn said it's not independent of the author, Hullaballoo Wolfowitz said "the self-sourcing standards" apply, which indicates he considered it the equivalent of a self-published source, and Andrew Lancaster suggested treating it like material published on the author's website - a primary, self-published source. Now it's technically possible that dozens of other editors agree with Maiorem and consider such profiles reliable third-party sources, but mysteriously none of them bothered to voice their opinion and disagree at the noticeboard. Huon (talk) 10:49, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

1. WP:RS:

Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason self-published media—whether books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, personal pages on social networking sites, Internet forum postings, or tweets—are largely not acceptable.

References used in the article from Apologetics 315:

• http://apologetics315.blogspot.com/2009/11/william-lane-craig-vs-francisco-j-ayala.html
• http://apologetics315.blogspot.com/2009/04/christopher-hitchens-vs-william-lane.html

Content from references: Debate audio

Claims made in sources: 0

Regarding WP:RSN replies, please refer to WP:SYNTH:

Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources.

See also WP:Silence means nothing

Am I not being civil? Is this post lacking in etiquette? Kindly inform me if either one is true. Thank you. Maiorem (talk) 17:36, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I honestly don't understand why you refer to WP:SYNTH with respect to the reliable sources noticeboard. Do you believe that my interpretation of those users' comments is somehow a synthesis? Do you think that one or more of those replies suggest we should treat Craig's "participant profile" as a reliable third-party source independent of Craig? Which? We could just ask those users for clarification if we cannot agree on what they meant. Regarding WP:Silence means nothing, we don't have silence - we have people speaking out, they just happen to disagree with you. Huon (talk) 22:46, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Your claim(s): "Since these organizations write about one of their fellows or employees, they are not independent of Craig and are not third-party sources. Also, such author profiles are not known for fact-checking and are probably not subject to editorial oversight"

Editors	Claims	"they are not independent of Craig"	"not third-party sources"	"not known for fact-checking"	"not subject to editorial oversight"
User:Nuujinn	"No, especially not for a BLP, since the publisher is not independent of the author."	Yes	No	No	No
User:Brmull	"This wouldn't be a RS for a BLP, but ordinarily the subject's blog would be a RS for info about himself."	No	No	No	No
User:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz	I think that standard BLP criteria apply, in particular the self-sourcing standards that...Applying those standards carefully, I think the profile is far from an ideal source for the material it is cited for, although it is better than similar citations to the subject's own books, which appear to be OR/synthesis from primary sources.	Yes	Yes	No	No
User:Andrew Lancaster	To me it seems possible to sometimes use such author notes, but it is not ideal. I think that it makes sense to treat it like information on an author's webpage (indeed author's webpages are often based on the same types of texts that appear on their books) and indeed the main thing to be careful of then is to avoid anything un-duly self-serving or promotional. It seems better than nothing.	No	No	No	No

"The reliable sources noticeboard agreed with my stance on such sources."

Synthesis: Yes.

WP:Silence means nothing -> "Now it's technically possible that dozens of other editors agree with Maiorem and consider such profiles reliable third-party sources, but mysteriously none of them bothered to voice their opinion and disagree at the noticeboard." Maiorem (talk) 06:41, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

OK, I maybe should have been a bit more fuzzy. The people at RSN agreed with my stance that such profiles are not reliable secondary sources independent of the subject: Nuujinn, Hullaballoo Wolfowitz and Andrew Lancaster (whom I've asked for a clarification) agreed with the "not a secondary source independent of the subject" part, and Brmull agreed with the "not reliable" part. The point is that everybody but you agreed that this is not the type of source on which to base an article or section. Regarding silence, you misinterpret the essay. Obviously it's not the case that nobody saw the RSN thread, that everybody who saw was too occupied to reply or chose not to reply. Thus, the essay is not applicable here. Huon (talk) 10:13, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

RE:"not reliable secondary sources"

User:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz: "I think the profile is far from an ideal source for the material it is cited for,"

Far from ideal ≠ not reliable

As of this writing, User:Andrew Lancaster has yet to respond to your request for clarification. Said editor cannot be counted towards agreement with "not a secondary source independent of the subject".

WP:Silence means nothing:

But "silence" may just mean that nobody has seen the edit or proposal in question, or that they are too occupied with other matters to give it consideration.

Assertion: "Obviously it's not the case that nobody saw the RSN thread, that everybody who saw was too occupied to reply or chose not to reply."

Justification: None

Maiorem (talk) 10:46, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

I'll leave it for others to decide whether Hullaballoo Wolfowitz agreed that the profile is not a secondary source independent of the subject when even you put a "yes" in the "not independent of the subject" column of your table, or whether four replies to a thread are sufficient justification to say that it's not the case that nobody replied to it. Huon (talk) 11:04, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

"not independent of the subject" ≠ "not reliable"

"Now it's technically possible that dozens of other editors agree with Maiorem and consider such profiles reliable third-party sources, but mysteriously none of them bothered to voice their opinion and disagree at the noticeboard."

"none of them bothered to voice their opinion and disagree at the noticeboard" = "silence"

silence = nothing

Maiorem (talk) 14:43, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Hello. Huon asked me to clarify my posting on RSN. From what I can see above he has interpreted me about right. Hope this helps.

• I think this is a self-published source and comes under WP:SPS. So such sources can sometimes be used, especially as a source saying what that person or organization thinks about something, but not for something which is overly self-publicizing. They are not ideal though.
• Special exceptions, where such a source might be used relatively freely, would require the person wanting to use such source showing how those sources have their own reputation for fact checking. For example, is this webpage cited by well known publications which are less controversial.
• In general, the onus is upon the person proposing to use an unusual source, to convince others. Of course this "onus" should not be abused by others, and objections should be explained and clear. In other words there is an onus upon people complaining about something to make sure they do not look like they are pushing a POV.
• Another point which seems to have come up here is whether it is a problem when a WP articles relies too heavily on such sources. The answer is yes, but I am not familiar with this article here enough to know if that applies. One major issue is that the notability of the subjects being discussed should at least be able to be verified good sources. (There is not point reporting someone's opinions from his or her webpage if that person's opinions on that subject are not notable to begin with.)--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:52, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to clarify your posting, Andrew.

"such sources can sometimes be used, especially as a source saying what that person or organization thinks about something"

Yes. This is neither original research nor synthesis and that makes it acceptable as a source to be used in the context of this article.

Reputation for fact checking: Yes

• Closer to Truth is created, hosted and produced by Robert Lawrence Kuhn and has over 100 professors of science, philosophy and theology, and many leading scientists as its participants - a total of 128 such authorities.
• Here is more information about Closer to Truth from PBS.
• Also covered here.

Maiorem (talk) 14:43, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

We're not talking about the Closer to truth show, but about their website's participants profiles. I see no indication that Kuhn or any of the professors of science, theology or philosophy are responsible for the content of those profiles, with the possible exception of the participant whose profile we're talking about. I'm also not aware that the website has a reputation for fact-checking. Could you please provide an example of a less controversial, well-known publication citing the webpage? Besides, even if we could establish the CtT website's reliability, it would still be a primary source on the show's own participants: One we may use, but not one the likes of which we may base major parts of the article on. Huon (talk) 16:04, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

In a recent video interview (http://www.closertotruth.com/videoprofile/Why-Explore-Consciousness-and-Cosmos-Andrei-Linde-/874) Linde tells that his editor suggested he remove the reference to consciousness in his book because he "might lose the respect of his friends." Linde told her that if he removed it, "I would lose my own self-respect."

Kuttner, F., & Rosenblum, B. (2011). Quantum enigma: physics encounters consciousness (p. 264). Oxford University Press.

In case anybody is wondering, the link as cited in the book is missing a hyphen; the correct link should appear thus:

http://www.closertotruth.com/video-profile/Why-Explore-Consciousness-and-Cosmos-Andrei-Linde-/874

Maiorem (talk) 20:36, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

A couple of points I’d like to raise here: If we are going to write about Craig’s work in philosophy, it would be a good idea would be to cite his books. I believe books and articles in peer reviewed count as reliable sources. With regard to the point about author profiles not being known for fact checking:

If we admit that Fox news can be used to establish notability, his frequent appearance on a PBS TV show dedicated to philosophy and science should also be sufficient. Here, he is introduced as a professor of philosophy during an interview. I’m not saying that shouldn’t cut most of the CTT citations, I’m just saying that we shouldn’t cut them all out (unless you think that introduction was written by Craig or his publishers).

Second, I believe that universities are generally known fact checking the job records of their employees. The EPS source and the ISCID are reliable sources. If we are going to say that Craig is a member of the EPS and is a philosopher/theologian, it is reasonable to link to a philosophical/theological society that states Craig is a philosopher/theologian. If we say he is a member of the ISCID we should link to the ISCID website. If we say Craig has debated such and such person, we should link to videos showing him debating these people.

Reasonable Faith has such videos. Marojem has already noted that the article does not rely on primarily on CTT or Reasonable Faith. Wiki guidelines state that such sources are acceptable where there is ‘’ there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity.’’ Unless we are to believe that these videos are the product of an elaborate fabrication, I maintain that they are reliable. From what I understand, Huon prefers that RF and CTT citations be reduced. Fine. We can reduce RF and CTT citations even further:

Here is the New Statesman on the Craig/Hitchens debate.

Here is Premier Christian radio on the Craig/ Grayling debate:

Craig’s debate with Flew is discussed by Flew in this book:

There Is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind [Hardcover] (Author), Antony Flew (Author)Roy Abraham Varghese

Craig’s debate with Stenger is found here and here:

Here are some more books and papers we can cite in place of CTT:

Craig. The Only Wise God. 1999 William Lane Craig, Divine Foreknowledge and Human Freedom. New York, E.J. Brill; 1991 William Lane Craig. "The Middle Knowledge View." Divine Foreknowledge, Four Views. Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2001. Craig. "Middle Knowledge, Truth-Makers, and the Grounding Objection." Faith and Philosophy 18 (2001): 337-52

Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

These can be used in relation to Craig’s work on divine foreknowledge and God’s relationship to time

I think Marojem has met the burden of proof with regard to 315 as a source. Unless we should remove large sections of the P Z Myers page (which largely sourced from his blog)I see no reason to change this citation.--HyperEntity (talk) 20:28, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Per WP:PRIMARY, material should not be based purely on primary sources. Craig's books are obviously primary sources on Craig. So are audio recordings of Craig, or Craig's debate partners discussing their debates, or Craig's employers writing about Craig. In all those cases the source is written by Craig himself or by someone directly involved, and while some such sources may be reliable, and while such relaible sources may indeed be used to flesh out what we write, we should still not have entire sections based purely on such sources.

In contrast, the Stanford Encyclopedia articles HyperEntity linked to above are secondary sources, they look reliable to me, and they should allow us to write a paragraph on Craig's theory of the relation between God and time (and on Kalam, but we already had a secondary source on that).

Regarding PZ Myers, I haven't bothered checking the article; I wouldn't be surprised if it suffered just the same problems of over-use of primary sources as this one, but just as with Harris and The Moral Landscape, that other stuff exists is irrelevant to this article. Let me repeat what I said about Harris: If you want to shorten that article and editors over there argue that it's OK to have entire sections based on primary sources, feel free to summon me and I'll argue for shortening that article, too. I currently don't care enough about the Myers article to become active on my own, though. Huon (talk) 22:46, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Huon, it does not appear the article is based entirely on primary information from this person's own work?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 19:00, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

I have given my opinion on the current sources at the very top of this section. Besides the Cambridge Companion and Fox News, which of the sources we currently have do you consider a reliable secondary source? Huon (talk) 21:54, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

I've already noted that use of primary sources is not against Wiki policy and that its use is reliable and actually encouraged. Huon's objection that it descriptions of Craig's work rely too much on Craig's books and articles should really be read as 'This article relies too much on reliable sources'. If the article does not rely too much on on such sources, there is no problem. Now, I've already tried to reduce reliance on primary sources but since we still seem to disagree over how much constitutes too much, I will attempt to reduce use of primary sources even further.

-adopting a neo-Lorentzian interpretation of special relativity Craig demonstrates that the A-theory is compatible with Relativity theory:

Presentism and Relativity, Yuri Balashov1 and Michel, Janssen British Jnl. for the Philosophy of Sci. Volume 54, Issue 2 Pp. 327-346

-possible worlds semantics based on the A-theory:

A Theory of Presentism, Craig Bourne, Canadian Journal of Philosophy 36.1 (2006) 1-23

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/canadian_journal_of_philosophy/v036/36.1bourne.html

p.121, Q Smith-Time, Reality & Experience edited by Craig Callender

-constructing a positive case for the A-theory/ criticism of B-theory of time:

Tense, Timely Action and Self-Ascription, STEPHAN TORRE, Philosophy and Phenomenological Research, Volume 80, Issue 1, pages 112–132, January 2010

p.73, L.Nathan Oaklander-Time, Reality & Experience edited by Craig Callender

-Craig defends Molinism:

Stanford EP: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-will-foreknowledge/#2.4

Zygon papers: http://www.zygoncenter.org/studentsymposium/pdfs/papers01/symposium01_Kim.pdf

Humana.Mente – Issue 8 – January 2009: http://www.humanamente.eu/PDF/Paper_In%20Defence%20of%20the%20Thin%20Red%20Line_issue%208.pdf

-and rejects fatalism: Does Omniscience Imply Foreknowledge? Craig on Hartshorneby Donald Wayne Viney

-Also a critic of naturalism: Prof Graham Oppy reviews Naturalism: A Critical analysis --HyperEntity (talk) 20:24, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Wow, HyperEntity, great job! I wonder how we have missed all these C.C Maiorem (talk) 20:43, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

I have quoted the relevant policy.Primary sources may (or may not) be reliable, and they may be used with caution, but we should avoid basing material entirely on primary sources. Right now, the entire "work" section is based on Craig's books, Craig's website, and Craig's profiles by organizations he's affiliated with. Thus, I too would like to thank HyperEntity for finding secondary sources which discuss Craig's ideas. Below, I have written a first draft based on the Stanford Encyclopedia; the articles should allow us to write a more thorough summary of Craig's position regarding philosophy of time and divine foreknowledge. Huon (talk) 21:54, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Philosophy of time - draft

Based on the Stanford Encyclopedia article HyperEntity found, I suggest changing the section on philosophy of time into the following:

Craig says that, since nothing existing outside time can interact with the world, God, a causal agent, must be in time. At the moment of creation, God becomes temporal. This makes creation an A-series temporal event for God. According to Paul Helm, Craig's reasoning seems confused because a timeless God (as Craig sees God before the creation of the world) cannot become temporal at a certain point in time.

This seems to give the gist of what the Stanford Encyclopedia has to say about Craig's contribution to the philosophy of time and eternity (their "Time" article does not mention Craig). Thoughts? Maybe we should choose a better link target for "creation"? Huon (talk) 10:47, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Or perhaps there is no need for the link for "creation". Anyhow, the points made in your draft differ with the contents of the article. The article claims "Craig argues against the idea of divine timelessness on the grounds that, since the creation is contingent, God must have relations with his creation that he would not have had had there been no creation." What you cited as Craig's confused reasoning is actually Craig's argument against a timeless God, "Once time begins at the moment of creation, God either becomes temporal in virtue of his real, causal relation to time and the world or else he exists as timelessly with creation as he does sans creation. But this second alternative seems quite impossible." There is no "before" prior to the beginning of time, hence there cannot be a view of God being "before the creation of the world". If you want to include Helm's (not Helms) criticism of William Lane Craig's argument, I would suggest to include Craig's own defense as a counterbalance of WP:NPOV Maiorem (talk) 22:31, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

I also see no need to link to creation (but if we do we should choose a better link).

Anyway, I've revised Huon's draft so that it reads like this: In terms of God's relationship to time, Craig argues that God must exist in time if He is to be regarded as a causal agent. He rejects the view that God could exist timelessly with creation sans creation on the grounds that nothing outside time could have temporal interactions with the world. Critics such as Paul Helm maintain that Craig’s argument against divine timelessness is itself incoherent as a timeless God (as Craig sees God before the creation of the world) cannot become temporal at a certain point in time..

For his part, Craig replies that (insert Craig’s reply).

While we’re in the business of reducing the use of primary citations I suggest we link to this book instead: Eternal God: A Study of God Without Time By Paul Helm (Craig’s response to critics is discussed on p. 220). You can find it in Google books.--HyperEntity (talk) 14:15, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I have expanded the draft and put it at User:Huon/Test; feel free to edit it there (that should save us from having to copy ever more versions of it on this talk page). I have expanded the "time" section to include both Craig's stance on the A- and B-series and his reply to his critics as suggested by HyperEntity, and I have changed our coverage of Craig's variant of Hilbert's hotel by removing a "non-" (it didn't make much sense before, but I'm not sure I've removed the correct "non"; thus I tagged the statement with {{fact}}). The Kalam section needs more work; we have secondary sources, but we currently do not use them. Huon (talk) 19:09, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I've made a few edits to it. What do you think?--HyperEntity (talk) 20:25, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

POV issues in the first paragraph

I'm sorry to keep coming back to this, but every time I read the first paragraph, I'm struck with out how obviously biased it is. Here are the specifics:

• "He is known for his work on the philosophy of time and philosophy of religion, specifically the existence of God and defense of Christian theism."
  • We seem to be using two sense of the word "known." In the first, "known" means "famous for." And the second refers to something more like "has been noted for." In this regard, Craig is certain been noted by some people for his work in the philosophy of time. But, he is famous for his work in the philosophy of religion. In either case, he is known for his debates more than either his philosophy of time or religion.
• "He has made major contributions to the philosophy of religion..."
  • Major? I question this word.
• "...his defense of the Kalām cosmological argument is the most widely discussed argument for the existence of God in contemporary Western philosophy."
  • Again, I don't think that this claim from Quentin Smith should be represented as a fact in this article.
• The selection of books is strange. It contains The Kalam Cosmological Argument, which it should. And it includes three relatively insignificant books. And it excludes 'Reasonable Faith'. 'Reasonable Faith' is Craig's text book on apologetics and can't possibly be omitted.

• And finally, it feels like this opening paragraph simply doesn't describe Craig's place in the world. It makes no mention of his conservatism or evangelicalism, both of which seem important. It makes no mention of his reasonable faith ministry. It feels the portrait being drawn here is one of a philosopher who dabbles in apologetics and not an apologists working within philosophy. And I don't mean to suggest that Craig isn't a talented philosophy, but that we seem to be entirely depreciated his work in apologetics, which is tremendous, frankly. Theowarner (talk) 18:55, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

There is no such distinction between the "two" senses of the word "known". In fact, "famous" is itself a synonym for "noted", and I do not see your argument as based on any existing definition of the word from any reliable dictionary. Furthermore, you do not provide any references to back your claim that "he is known for his debates more than either his philosophy of time or religion." Or are you unaware that his debates are mostly about the philosophy of time and religion anyway?

On what basis do you question the word "major"? On the basis of your unfamiliarity with the volume of his works? On the basis of your unfamiliarity with the number of times he has been referenced by philosophers of religion as well as theologians on related works?

Your opinion regarding what should or should not be represented as fact needs to be backed by additional references for any sort of consideration. Citation needed. Why do you think that the claim from Quentin Smith, an academician highly qualified in his field, on the prominence of William Lane Craig in his academic field, philosophy, shouldn't be represented as fact in this article, apart from your bias?

Please cite the "three relatively insignificant books" that you have mentioned. What appears to be "insignificant" to you may be due to your own unfamiliarity with the books themselves or their relative significance. In addition, the significance of books is not an issue, since the Bibliography section should detail most, if not all, the books that have been authored, co-authored or edited by William Lane Craig. You are right in pointing out that Reasonable Faith should also be included.

Why do the mention of conservatism or evangelicalism seem important to you? In fact, based on the definitions of conservatism and evangelicalism, William Lane Craig is neither in the strictest sense. And no, it would be fairly inaccurate to portray him as "an apologists working within philosophy" because he is both philosopher and theologian at the same time. His work in apologetics is always tied to his work in philosophy. Maiorem (talk) 17:20, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I'll have to think about better responses to many of your points. But, let me say that I would certainly appreciate both a change in your tone towards me and an explanation why 'Theism, Atheism and Big Bang Cosmology' (co-authored with Quentin Smith) (1993), 'Time and Eternity: Exploring God's Relationship to Time' (2001), and 'Einstein, Relativity and Absolute Simultaneity' (co-edited with Quentin Smith) are referenced in the first paragraph. 'The Kalam Cosmological Argument' and 'Reasonable Faith' should be included as we agree. But, those three books aren't especially noteworthy. I would describe them as fairly middle of the road works. They are interesting, competent, and certainly part of the conversation, but to suggest that they should be specifically mentioned apart from his other books and alone with The Kalam Cosmological Argument is simply unsubstantiated. I'll wait for you Maiorem for that substantiation. Theowarner (talk) 20:39, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Also, I'm not sold by your, Mairoem's, response to my objection to the word 'major.' Your response was actually sort of non-responsive. So, let me put more language to my initial thought. That is: "major" is clearly an evaluation about relative importance. If you look at the "philosophy of religion" as an entire discipline, Dr. Craig is certainly one of many scholars who contributes but, I have difficulty accepting that he has made "major contributions." If you look at the wikipedia page on "philosophy of religion," he isn't even mentioned, let along his supposed "major contributions." How can that page omit his "major contributions"? Theowarner (talk) 20:46, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Your opinion that they are "fairly middle of the road works" is not based on any objective criteria. There is simply no reason to not mention these books as part of his works. Your contention about the word "major" is not with me, but with Quentin Smith. You are not in this field of philosophy of religion to make such an evaluation, whereas Quentin Smith is. This is why we accept Quentin Smith's evaluation and reject yours. Maiorem (talk) 05:52, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

My evaluation that they are "fairly middle of the road works is based on my perspective, of course, and so is your opinion of the same books. Right now, the burden to explain why those books are placed alongside Reasonable Faith and The Kalam Cosmological Argument. You say there in reason not to mention these books, but you've selected them from a list of many. That act of selection is comment and you need to justify it. Once again, when it comes to the word major, you aren't representing it as Dr. Smith evaluation, but as fact. Dr. Smith can no more establish fact than I or you can. Theowarner (talk) 17:31, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I have no opinion whatsoever on these books. The burden is on you to explain why these books should not be mentioned alongside Reasonable Faith and The Kalam Cosmological Argument. I never said anything about not to mention these books so I would appreciate it if you do not put words into my mouth. In case you do not know already, I am not the one who put those books there. I am not the one who wrote that paragraph. In fact, I did not write a single paragraph in the article, as I only made minor edits and reverts. Dr Smith's evaluation is fact, and yes, actually Dr Smith has the qualifications to establish facts relating to his field more than you and me. Maiorem (talk) 17:45, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

1) Distinction without a difference. ‘Known’ here refers to his ‘fame’ within the academic world. That he is known more for his work in philosophy of religion does not change the fact that many philosophers have praised his work in philosophy of time. Marojem mentiomed those philosophers earlier in the discussion.

2)Fine. We’ll change it to ‘made contributions’ if the others agree.

3) I responded to this point already. See my reply here if you missed it.

4) We stated that he works in philosophy of religion and time. The selection of books reflects this. If you wish to shorten it and include Reasonable Faith, I don’t have a problem as long as the others agree. We can work something out.

5) The Reasonable Faith ministry is linked to. However, if you wish to include it, I don’t see why not as long as Marojem and the rest are willing to. --HyperEntity (talk) 12:23, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Should we add the BHA controversy?

It’s pretty notable in the UK. Members of the British Humanist Association (Dawkins, Grayling, Toynbee) have all refused to debate Craig despite dozens of invitations to do so. There’ll even be adverts on buses around Oxford stating ‘’There’s probably no Richard Dawkins. Now stop worrying and enjoy the Sheldonian theatre) : http://www.bethinking.org/what-is-apologetics/introductory/theres-probably-no-dawkins.htm

Toynbee was going to but got cold feet when she saw his previous debates. We already have sources for this from PCR, Newstatesman, Daily Telegraph, and Christian News. Shouldn’t we mention it in the debate section?--HyperEntity (talk) 14:56, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

It's not especially important in my opinion. Theowarner (talk) 16:21, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Let me add... it may be interesting right now, but that's because there are lot of people spilling a lot of ink on it. In January, it won't be worth mentioning here on Wikipedia. There's no reason to mention it now. Theowarner (talk) 16:22, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I disagree with theo. It's another case of something interesting, relevant and sourced, where there is no good reason not to put it in. Joycey17 (talk) 17:06, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I, too, disagree with Theowarner. The noteworthiness of an event is determined by its coverage at the time of its occurrence, not coverage at a future date. The fact alone that "there are lot of people spilling a lot of ink on it", especially by multiple reliable third-party secondary sources, means that it is definitely worth mentioning. Maiorem (talk) 17:27, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The noteworthiness of an event is determined by its coverage at the time of its occurrence, not coverage at a future date? See WP:EFFECT, WP:NOTSCANDAL, and WP:INDEPTH. I disagree with your reasoning, Maiorem. That it is being discussed 'now' is not enough to justify its mention. While Joycey17 is right that these declined debates are "interesting, relevant and sourced," I disagree that they are noteworthy or important. They are trivial, sensation and fleeting. (I'm reversing my opinion below.) Theowarner (talk) 02:10, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

None of those you cited even mentions anything about coverage at a future date. I will cite back to you WP:EFFECT and WP:INDEPTH:

With regards to WP:EFFECT, "It may take weeks or months to determine whether or not an event has a lasting effect. This does not, however, mean recent events with unproven lasting effect are automatically non-notable."

With regards to WP:INDEPTH, "The general guideline is that coverage must be significant and not in passing. In-depth coverage includes analysis that puts events into context, such as is often found in books, feature length articles in major news magazines (like Time, Newsweek, or The Economist), and TV news specialty shows (such as 60 Minutes or CNN Presents in the US, or Newsnight in the UK)."

For source, here's one. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8511931/Richard-Dawkins-accused-of-cowardice-for-refusing-to-debate-existence-of-God.html Maiorem (talk) 04:51, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

That article isn't going to establish that the coverage is significant. But, we still need to weigh the amount of coverage against some thought about how much that coverage is about trying to create coverage. Theowarner (talk) 02:36, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I do not understand what you are saying. Can you or someone else please rephrase your sentence, e.g. "coverage trying to create coverage"? Maiorem (talk) 08:18, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I am referring to deliberate attempts to create controversy. With Dawkins not debating Craig, for example, some people took out an advertisement on buses. Then, that advertisement became the source of news coverage. It seems to me like an attempt to create controversy or to compound the news cycle. My point is only that we need to make sure that we buying into hype. Our job should be see through hype. Theowarner (talk) 17:57, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Are you aware of the Atheist Bus Campaign that ran two years ago? This is a parody of it, and it is not a deliberate attempt to create controversy, as you suggested. Advertisements do not become the source of news coverage for no reason other than being advertisements, especially not for reliable sources. Maiorem (talk) 18:04, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I am indeed aware of the Atheist Bus Campaign. I recognize that it is a parody of it. I'm not sure why you think it's not an attempt to create controversy. The original Atheist Bus Campaign was an attempt to create controversy and this advertisement seems in the same spirit. I'm not sure what you are trying to say in your last sentence. Theowarner (talk) 18:10, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not even sure why you think it is an attempt to create controversy; what's the controversy? Yes, the original campaign was indeed an attempt at generating controversy, but how is this recent campaign an attempt at generating controversy? How is it "in the same spirit"? What I said in the last sentence basically means that nobody, especially not for reliable news sources, writes news about advertisements unless those advertisements are linked to something more notable. Thus, these advertisements are not being reported about simply by virtue of them being advertisements as you have suggested by saying "that advertisement became the source of news coverage" which is untrue and misleading. Maiorem (talk) 18:23, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

You ask a great many questions. Are you sure you're following the coverage closely? If you don't know what the controversy is, I doubt you're following it at all. Theowarner (talk) 18:31, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Please explain to us what the controversy is. Assume that I am not following the coverage. How are you going to explain the controversy? Do you think every reader of this article would have followed such coverage? I doubt even you are following, nor do you know what the controversy is. Maiorem (talk) 18:35, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

If you scroll up, there are fairly straightforward descriptions of the controversy. You can google the terms fairly easily. Theowarner (talk) 18:39, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

In other words, the "controversy" is non-existent. I said to explain the controversy, not redirect us to Google. Telling us to Google something isn't an explanation; that's avoidance. I can also tell you to Google why there's no "controversy" either. Oh, and be sure to differentiate between the 2009 Christian bus campaign and the recent one too. Maiorem (talk) 18:46, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

While notability is not just determined by coverage at the time of the occurrence (per WP:NOTNEWS), I don't think mentioning those who refused to debate Craig is out of line. What's the best source? The New Statesman article we already cite is an opinion piece, not a news item; the bethinking link HyperEntity gave above is just a reprint of a press release. Huon (talk) 20:04, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Ah, well if you're just going to list them with the others he has debated, I'm okay with that. Many of the sources, by the way, are actually just versions of Craig's press release on the same issue. He put out releases on Dawkins and Toynbee. So, make sure you aren't simply point back to something Craig's people wrote.Theowarner (talk) 20:42, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Possible worlds semantics

The section on philosophy of time contained this half-sentence:

He develops a possible worlds semantics based on the A-theory

The first source mentions A-theory only in connection with Ludlow, not with Craig, and while it talks about possible worlds, it again does not do so in connection with Craig. The second source is malformed because it contains two different page numbers; the "pp. 338" must be wrong because the book doesn't have 338 pages. All Smith says on p. 121 is that "Craig holds that future tense sentence-tokens corresponds [sic] to presently existing, abstract states of affairs." I don't see how either source supported our statement; thus I removed it. Huon (talk) 20:36, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't see how that part is actually helpful to lay readers anyway, so I don't have an issue with the removal of that sentence. Maiorem (talk) 04:54, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

How editors should make evaluations....

Craig's primary contribution to philosophy of religion is his revival of the kalam cosmological argument.

This sentence appears in the article now. And, it is not supported with sources. However, what's interesting about it is that we all, as editors, agree on it. And I suppose that our agreement comes from the fact that we're merely sensitive enough to the topic to know that it's true. We can't seem to use that sensitivity elsewhere, though. Theowarner (talk) 18:06, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

My view concerning it is neutral. I neither agree nor disagree with it, as I do not see any references for either view. This idea of being "sensitive enough" to determine the status of a statement as fact is false. Maiorem (talk) 18:31, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

This idea of being "sensitive enough" to determine the status of a statement as fact is false? What are you trying to say? Theowarner (talk) 18:34, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Your statement, "And I suppose that our agreement comes from the fact that we're merely sensitive enough to the topic to know that it's true." is false. Maiorem (talk) 18:38, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Why do you think that? Theowarner (talk) 18:39, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Because the statement is factually untrue. It is not based on objective facts. The claim has been disproved by my lack of agreement. The statement relies on false assumptions that all editors agreed upon it because of being "sensitive enough to the topic to know that it's true", which is not a factual claim per se. Shall I provide more reasons? Maiorem (talk) 18:49, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, you certainly have demonstrated that the claim is untrue. Does this mean that we should delete the sentence in question? Without any references, it should certainly not be included, right? Theowarner (talk) 18:55, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Rather than delete it, why not rephrase it? Maiorem (talk) 19:08, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Go ahead. I think the sentence is true as it is. I know you don't care that I do, but I do. Theowarner (talk) 19:09, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

let's debate commas

In The Kalam Cosmological Argument he formulates the argument in the following manner...

In this sentence, should there be a comma after "Argument"? I think there should be, and I edited the page to that effect. Maiorem reverted the edit. I argue that commas offset introductory prepositional phrases (with longer prepositional phrases, it's necessary; with shorter prepositional phrases,it's optional). It's purely a judgement call, but my feeling is that it simply lends a little order to the sentence. I can't believe that Maiorem thinks this is worth reverting and frankly, the revert seems petty. But let's all talk about it. (I'd like to point out that I used a comma in my first sentence ("In this sentence, should there...") and if it didn't pain you as you read it, you should probably agree with me.) Theowarner (talk) 18:50, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Your use of a comma in your first sentence is warranted due to your sentence structure, i.e. your question should have been structured thus: "Should there be a comma after "Argument" in this sentence?" The prepositional phrase here is actually quite short, since you only have a preposition (In) and the noun phrase (The Kalam Cosmological Argument, which counts as one noun phrase, not four separate nouns), so two items in the parse tree do not constitute a long phrase. For more information about how to properly utilize commas in introductory phrases, (that introductory phrase was composed of 12 individual lexical items, thus it warrants the comma), please refer to this link. Maiorem (talk) 19:06, 12 October 2011 (UTC)