Talk:Kim Jong Il

Poison

Many say the decision to poison Kim's Cognac came after long consideration in the Hawaiian Pacific. The idea, derived by an American descendant of the Isle of Man, was completed in top secret fashion. The substance, known to cause symptoms of Alcohol Poisoning, could easily pass as such in a third-world Medical facility. Kim had been warned on numerous occasions; due to current World circumstance, the underhanded action had to be made to avoid War. the Minnesotan—Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.114.21.94 (talk) 07:04, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

What the hell are you talking about? Troublemaker1973 (talk) 13:17, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

How to poison a North Korean dictator. It was nowhere as easy as it sounds and was in the works since 2003. http://e.imagehost.org/0677/kim.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.114.21.94 (talk) 22:40, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Mk5384 (talk) 09:13, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

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Dear leader Kim Jong il is the Dear dictator, dear killer — Preceding unsigned comment added by Valiumz (talk • contribs) 02:36, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Birth Date

The Korean Wikipedia article on Kim gives his birth date one year later, Feb 25 1923. Which is correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quelcrime (talk • contribs) 19:20, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

We should not be referring to Kin Jong Il as Kim! Kim is his last name. To clearly distinguish between him and his father we should use his first name or full name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.138.57.98 (talk) 14:27, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree. People are often referred to by last name only; in the talk page of an article about Kim Jong-Il, I don't think that there's going to be too much confusion.Anglican 07:55, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The present article claims Mr Kim was born February 16, 1941, while his official biography (Kim Jong Il - Short History. Pyongyang: Foreign Languages Publishing House, 1998, p. 1), claims he was born one year later.

BBC News clame that state biographers wrote of his birth to have been 'foretold by a swallow, and heralded by the appearance of a double rainbow over the mountain and a new star in the heavens', however they do not give their source, and it is not written anywhere in Short History. I've left it in the article, but does anyone know of the original source?Timephoenix (talk) 03:19, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I took a look at the Short History, and I think what that line about the sparrow and "double rainbow" refers to is a poem supposedly written by Kim Jong Il entitled The Embrace of My Motherland. This poem is discussed briefly in the official biography as a childhood composition that was meant to demonstrate Kim's loyalty to his father (pg. 3). The text of the poem is as follows:

Moran Hill is afire with a red glow,

The Taedong is arched with a rainbow.

How beautiful this motherland

In whose embrace I've grown up!

Azaleas smile sweetly in spring,

Larks warble high up on the wing,

As warm and tender as the vernal sun

Is the land that has brought me up.

The sun rise on the sea buoyant,

The land glows under the sun radiant,

Stars twinkle with nocturnal grace,

In my father the General's embrace.

Notice that the poem mentions the rainbow, the bird (a lark rather than a sparrow), the stars in the night sky... it's weak evidence, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the "claim" presented in the article is some far-removed derivation of the poem above, or at least elements of the poem. Either way, I agree that said claim should be removed in the absence of any legitimate cited sources.

By the way, I found the text for the poem in the endnotes of the Short History. Page 146, Endnote #4.Dantericci (talk) 05:41, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

It's not stated in any official source that I've found (I read the Short History as well, the article appears to make the claim that the story is in the book, most people simply browsing wouldn't look at the link) theres a lot of misinformation about North Korea, it's quite clearly totalitarian but some of the stuff is as exaggerated as what the DPRK says about the west. I think that we should remove that section of the article unless someone does find an official DPRK source-Ted Fox 16:09, 30 April 2008

WP:RS is the only thing that should come into play as to his birthdate. If reliable sources state that he was born in 1941, then what a North Korean propaganda website says should be irrevelant. I think it would be fair to state somewhere in the article that Kim claims he was born in 1942. But the lede should only give the date listed in WP:RS. Any objections to changing this?Mk5384 (talk) 09:13, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Seeing how the info box lists both dates with details, I think that that is sufficient.Mk5384 (talk) 09:15, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

He also created an internet community named FunnyJunk back in 2001 the full adress is http://www.funnyjunk.com/admin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.91.172.95 (talk) 00:39, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Personal Life

What sources were used on the Personal Life section of this article? T.Stokke 06:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

They are all cited. what's the question? Icactus 17:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

You are correct, strange it did not show at school.

I don't understand a part in the article. It goes, "a Russian emissary who traveled with Kim across Russia by train, told reporters that Kim had live lobsters air-lifted to the train every day which he ate with silver chopsticks - historically used in the Chinese Imperial Palace to detect poison". Do silver chopsticks actually detect poison or am I reading it wrong? --Thai H. Nguyen 22:25, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

There is been no conclusive scientific studies on the subject of silver chopsticks and poison. Kim Jong-Il probably just get a kick out of acting like royalty of some medieval hamlet kingdom...oh wait, he IS one.

-Roswell Crash Survivor 05:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Today, Kim Jong Il spends most of his time watching Western movies and drinking expensive wine while ninety five percent of his country starves to death on the streets. Kim Jong Il controlls all of the information which enters his country, although its citizens are to oppressed by him to own televisions or radio's anyway. Meanwhile, Il tells his people that he is the greatest leader the world has ever seen, while he blames all of his countries problems and corruption on Western countries. His people believe him because they have no access to any information, as it is all controlled and censored by Jong Il to make him look great, and other countries to look evil. Thus, Jong Il is able to keep the popular support of his people by killing anyone who threatens his authority. Kim Jong-Il is the worlds most brutal dictator, is half insane, and the worst part is, his own people dont even know it, yet they continue to starve. Thes people are under the rule of an oppressive dictator who lacks basic political, economical and ethical knowledge to run a country. The people suffer because of him and don't realize it because their minds are built on the whims of Jong Il's society. It is sickening for the rest of the world to witness Jong Il's evil.

I agree with you. Also, you keep referencing this demon as "Il", its "Kim" and "Jong Il" is the name.

Evidence he spends most of his time watching movies and drinking wine? Evidence 95% of people starve to death on the streets? I think this whole section should be rewritten or deleted. Might as well add a section describing how he eats small children.. 88.114.230.208 (talk) 12:09, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

First we've got the pedant who has obviously done NO research on North Korea, then we've got the sophomoric retard. No, while the latter rant's exact figures are certainly disputable, the analysis of Kim is more or less accurate in a vague sense. The sources on this country are FRAGMENTARY, very fragmentary. Being caught video taping the real inside life of North Korea is a capital offense. Watching South Korean cinema is a capital offense. Listening or reading to foreign media is a capital offense in some cases. The only evidence here is basically rogue North Korean journalists videotaping the truth at the risk of their lives. Here are a couple ones to get started. And these are RS. This is about as good as the North Korean "RS" gets. This is the first video is a series: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w08zwl5VwbM

Cheers. Enlighten yourself. 67.212.40.244 (talk) 04:40, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I heard Kim Jong-Il drinks his own pee. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.24.131.53 (talk) 08:29, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Early political career

Early in March a whole section was removed by a vandal and never restored. Can the information be worked back in? Gazpacho 08:16, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I've just restored it - i think that the other sections removed were re-organized afterwards - actually they were split in two sub-sections. Thanks for the alert.--JForget 21:26, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

official assassination attempts

Mr Kim's itinerary was frequently altered for security reasons, he said, which probably saved his life. The owner of the mobile telephone found at the scene had been traced and questioned, according to the official, but it was unclear what had happened to him. It would not have been the first assassination attempt against Mr Kim, who succeeded his father Kim Il Sung as leader in 1994. At the end of the 1990s, a plan hatched by a number of Korean army generals was uncovered, and the conspirators arrested. After they were interrogated, the generals were executed in Pyongyang's 150,000-capacity May Day Stadium. Petrol was poured over them and set alight, burning them alive.

[1] --HanzoHattori 09:50, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Corrections and updates needed

Someone please correct the following (I'm not good at English):

"In 2002, Kim Jong-il's government admitted to having produced nuclear weapons since the 1994 agreement. Kim's regime argued the secret production was necessary for security purposes - citing the presence of United States owned nuclear weapons in South Korea and the new tensions with the U.S. under President George W Bush.[24]"

1) NK allegedly amitted not "having produced nuclear weapons", but secretly running a highly enriched uranium (HEU) program.

2) *Allegedly* admitted. According to Washington. Pyongyang denied such an admission. Moreover, even U.S. do not seem to be very sure of their own claim anymore:

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/news_view.asp?newsIdx=3088595.

There is also an opinion that the "admission" is either a total fabrication on the part of US, or a misunderstanding due to a bad translation from Korean of what the North's official said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15265432/site/newsweek/page/0/

"There is some evidence that the Bush administration was seeking to manipulate intelligence on North Korea. During a visit to Pyongyang by lead negotiator James Kelly in October 2002, he presented what U.S. officials described as "proof" that the North had a secret uranium-enrichment program, undercutting Clintonite claims that Kim was adhering to a pledge not to advance his nuclear program. Bush officials later said the North Koreans had confessed. But diplomats now say that was a translation error. (Kelly could not be reached for comment.)" Ri hwa won 20:33, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

It certainly does look like we need a better source on this. By the way, your English is very good, so don't be shy about editing the article yourself. --Reuben 22:44, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Popular culture / fictional portrayals section

I'd like to start a discussion as to whether this article should have a section of this nature. There are similar sections in the following articles: Tony Blair and Personality and image of Queen Elizabeth II. Adolf Hitler, George Bush and Julius Caesar go one better and get whole articles devoted to this subject - Adolf Hitler in popular culture, Fictionalized portrayals of George W. Bush and Cultural depictions of Julius Caesar. Would such a section be appropriate for this article too? SP-KP 08:47, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, as there's been no comment for or against, I've added a section along these lines. Please add any further portrayals you come across. SP-KP 19:20, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

There was such a section in the past, and it was removed because it didn't add anything useful to the article. The consensus was that Kim Jong-il is significant to Team America: World Police, but that the movie is not significant in an article on Kim Jong-il. In fact, the process was: people add pop culture references to the article; the list grows long and indiscriminate; it gets forked off as a separate "in popular culture" article; then that article gets deleted as not notable or encyclopedic. You can read more about this phenomenon and the point of view against such lists at Wikipedia:in popular culture. --Reuben 23:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I think that's a rather sophistic, narrow, and if I may say cowardly, assessment but not surprising given how sanitized the main article is. Many references are made to figures by the media that may not have a particular impact on their personal lives but are non the less significant in popular conception of that person and the absence is in case is striking. The film depicts Kim as a puppet animated by a vindictive cockroach (a cute homage to MIB) and is widely known.

"Kim Jong-il, a noted film buff,[6] has never commented publicly about his depiction in Team America: World Police, although shortly after its release North Korea asked the Czech Republic to ban the movie.[7] In the extras, Stone expresses a desire for Kim Jong-il to sing "I'm So Ronery""

So the inclusion and the attempt to repress the film are valid entries here, both contextually and as a cross reference, and it should be speedily included.

Are we acting as a proxy for Kim? Seriously, if we can include here the useless reference to 'The song No Motherland Without You' I don't see how we can't list 'Team America's view. If I had the technical proficiency I'd add the section myself. E Guano

Date of birth / contradiction

This article states that Soviet records state that Kim Jong-il was born on 1942-02-16, but Vyatskoye, Khabarovsk Krai states that the same records state that he was born on 1941-02-16. I don't know which date is the correct one. 1942-02-16 is the official date of birth (according to the official biography of the Dear Leader), but that is obviously not a reliable source. (Stefan2 21:31, 12 August 2007 (UTC))

Dear Leader is a glorious man, all detractors must be put to death. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.23.229.250 (talk) 14:46, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no contradiction unless one fails to distinguish actual birth date and place from politically necessary birth date and place. --Bejnar (talk) 05:55, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

"Dear Leader is a glorious man, all detractors must be put to death. Real or Fake? NK or Jokes? Man or god? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.199.55.33 (talk) 03:05, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

biography, it doesn't say he was born at 6

btw... in the wiki article it says the official biography states the guy was born 6 o clock on a mountain. I went to check out that biography and it doesn't seem to make reference to the time.

http://www.korea-dpr.com/library/103.pdf

(use the Find ability on your browser, search for the word "born")

I can't quote the relevant section because the Great Leader has put password protection on his bio pdf ¬¬

124.171.22.82 14:41, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

There's a short biograpy at [2], and that one doesn't mention any time of the day either. (Stefan2 21:31, 8 November 2007 (UTC))

Song Hye-rim / contradiction

In this article it says that Song Hye-rim died in 2003. However, at Song Hye-rim it says that she died in 2002. I don't know which is the correct year. (Stefan2 18:00, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

As of today, this is fixed, 2002. So removing the warning in Song Hye-rim Pieleric (talk) 09:32, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

"Fictional portrayals"

Honestly, does that reference deserve inclusion? I'm sure there are MANY similar portrayals of Kim in popular comedy. What makes this one special? Should be removed. WiccaWeb 04:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, most certainly. It is consistent with other articles on personalities and to not include a reference the rather infamous portrayal of Kim as a animatronic puppet controlled by a cockroach smacks of political censorship. And it's fun. (E Guano (talk) 22:34, 10 November 2009 (UTC))

Hair style

Why does he shave his left and right side of his hair? And why did the South-Korean president Roh Moo-hyun do the same thing when he visited North-Korea this week? Is it a Korean thing?

Picture example: http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/5/51/513/513966/korea_1191422519.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.108.220.136 (talk) 20:48, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Doubt it. This is most likely a big coincidence involving male-pattern baldness rather than Korean tradition. I'd look into it though, as that's just an assumption, I may be incorrect. 172.141.243.248 13:33, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe make him look taller —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.120.4.158 (talk) 06:22, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know, there is no tradition of shaving the sides of our heads.  Esper  ^rant  00:40, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

It could be related to the Korean obsession with making their faces look smaller. Unlike in the West, it is common for Koreans to discuss whether someone has a big face or a small face, and small faces are considered more beautiful. As a result, many hairstyles for South Korean men involve cropping the sides very short while leaving more volume up top (the end product usually looks like a mushroom). 128.146.114.160 (talk) 20:42, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Vanity Hotel Project

No mention of the ridiculous Pyong Hotel project? It's a massive, unbelievably hideous skyscraper hotel his regime started building back in the 80s - 100+ stories tall. It was never finished (although the structure does indeed reach 100 stories) and it towers over the capital city in all it's "splendor". Hundreds of millions were wasted on this unusable mess and it really drives home how wasteful he has been. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.30.163.16 (talk) 13:43, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

sure, lets add that valuable piece of information and stock it up into the already huge criticism section, i mean, who really needs to know about how the goverment of north korea has changed since he is in charge?.200.83.57.71 22:47, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

There's a separate page for the Ryugyong Hotel, which is what I assume you're referring to. [3] Lowell33 23:01, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I've heard, that he likes anime and furry art

Is it true? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.50.233.128 (talk) 20:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

No, I highly doubt that he's a Furry, you can't even get internet access in North Korea except in military bases in the DMZ, and if he was a furry, given his personality cult, don't you think he'd be announcing it to each and everyone on Fur Affinity or something?-Ted Fox 16:14, 30 April 2008

Kim is a self-proclaimed "Internet expert". I wouldn't be surprised if he is into anime and furry art, as that kind of thing is in abundance on the Net.  Esper  ^rant  00:42, 11 September 2008 (UTC) He is the beloved "Admin" of FJ, Funny Junk.com, since it's inception in 2001. FJ features all sorts of comedy and art, from anime and furry to sketches and stick figues. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LuluQ (talk • contribs) 02:29, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Kim Jong-il's name

Why is it that the English Wikipedia calls him Kim Jong-il, but the Russian Wikipedia calls him Ким Чён Ир (Kim Chyon Ir)? I was also listening to a North Korean marching song that I found from a Russian site (Песня о Полководце Ким Чен Ире), and it does sound like they say Kim Chyon Ir when they reach the refrains. Is that how his name is pronounced in Korean? Rebelyell2006 (talk) 05:54, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

There are several formalized schemes for Romanizing Korean, but what's actually used in practice is an unpredictable (and often very unhelpful) mish-mash. The spelling Kim Jong-il doesn't follow any particular scheme other than established usage. By contrast, there is a well-established and consistent scheme for rendering Korean names into Cyrillic, but it's not designed to directly correspond to Korean pronunciation. The Ки and Чё in Russian are more aspirated than they should be in Korean, and the н should really be an -ng sound like in English "sing". That sound isn't used in Russian. The distinction between l and r depends on what comes next, so it could go either way. The vowel in Jong is not represented very well either way, as Russian and English both use similar sounds but don't have a distinct way to write them. --Reuben (talk) 19:17, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Neither English nor Russian categorically distinguish between aspirated and unaspirated consonants. From comments of people who apparently know Korean, it sounds like it's important not to aspirate the "K". English speakers tend to aspirate except at the end of a word. Compare "keep" and "pack", for example.

The only difference between "ch" and "j" is that "ch" is unvoiced. There is no "J" in Cyrillic. There is "ж" which is usually transliterated as "zh" and pronounced like the second g in "garage". Then there is "Ч" which is usually transliterated "ch" but sometimes "Tch" as in "Tchaikovsky". Apparently Korean ch/j is pronounced more forward in the mouth so Ч represents this.

Not all languages distinguish "L" and "R". If you natively speak a language that doesn't distinguish, the brain is hardwired by age six or so and it very difficult to hear and pronounce the difference when you learn a new language later in life. Hence "Engrish" and hence "IL" and "IR" transliterations.

There simply isn't exact correspondence between Roman or Cyrillic letters and Korean sounds, so transliteration is necessarily ambiguous. LADave (talk) 22:13, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Strange, because I was under the impression that his name was spelled Kym Chong-Il. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.78.171.218 (talk) 00:01, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey, can anyone tell me why his name in English here is spelled as "Jong-il"?? I have only seen "Jung-il" from English articles in usual before. Is that used to differentiate "중/Jung", "정/Jong" and "종/Joong" (just like "소/Soo")?--Gzyeah (talk) 06:36, 27 January 2009 (UTC) -You are a little mixed up here. 소 is romanized as "so" and 수 is romanized as "su" and 서 would look like "seo" according to the standards in Korea now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrisjbrooks (talk • contribs) 07:29, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

The DPRK government spells his name Jong-Il on its own website. Other English spellings are echoes from shifting transliterations of Korean writing. Gwen Gale (talk) 06:43, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, I preffer "Gim..." more than "Kim...", because of different pronounce between "김/Gim" and "킴/Kim".--Gzyeah (talk) 06:53, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Transliteration seldom makes everyone happy. Either way, en.Wikipedia goes with the verifiable sources. Gwen Gale (talk) 06:55, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Kimjongil-wave.jpg

Image:Kimjongil-wave.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 18:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Propaganda

Unless they are used satirically (which is another problem), the segments about Jong-il's hobbies should be removed. At least there should be a disclaimer saying something about the fact that the information is retrieved from propaganda intended to boost his image. --66.214.90.232 (talk) 20:52, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I think this is a very important point. It serves to clarify.

The text already says these claims come from his "official biography" and "state media." Most readers understand spot on what this means. Calling it straightforward propaganda would need a sourced opinion (which likely can be found). Gwen Gale (talk) 14:34, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Re: Extent of Cult of Personality

I note that there are few examples of the actual extent of Kim's cult of personality. Exactly how many tributes, films, poems, books, etc are devoted to North Korea's despot? Calibanu (talk) 00:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC)Calibanu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Johttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-ilng-il —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.252.28.197 (talk) 02:07, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

4th Largest Standing Army

The article claims that the NK army is 4th largest in the world. This contradicts the linked page which says it is the 5th 163.1.99.133 (talk) 15:06, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Big deal, 4th largest or not, when they fight, their troops are an easy target because they always move so close together. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.78.171.218 (talk) 00:03, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Has anybody else come across rumors about his death? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.167.144.138 (talk) 19:25, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Picture

So, who decided to use the glamor shot? Didn't realize Wikipedia had been infiltrated by Juchists, along with every other totalitarian ideology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.222.149.167 (talk) 15:08, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Cosign. I don't see why we're reproducing propaganda here. Thomas1617 (talk) 00:20, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. The picture should really be charged. There isn't even any other picture of him. I think Alejandro Cao de Benos de Les y Pérez has been changing stuff around. 128.54.41.85 (talk) 05:55, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Did the DPRK realy put this younger version of Kim picture or is it just some guy messing around? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.152.105.17 (talk) 21:45, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Hey Kim, What you think? That picture ok with you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.51.152.180 (talk) 03:51, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Isn't it a little slanderous, tasteless at best to have a picture of Kim shaking hands with Vladimir Putin some 10 years ago as the article's main picture? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.107.76.206 (talk) 08:54, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

hehe. I don't really care about his picture. He's ana wful man.

Lead section hatnote

There are a number of disputes amongst historians in regard to events in Kim Jong-il's life. These relate to his alleged cult of personality, which is discussed here.

I think it is possible to incorporate this into the lead without using a self-reference. Viriditas (talk) 21:16, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Public domain and copyright?

Why is Kim Jong-il's official portrait in the public domain while Kim Il-sung's official portrait is copyrighted?

Thank you.

71.121.81.9 (talk) 09:10, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

North korean copyright is kinda unclear in the relivant area and obviously there is no caselaw to settle the matter.Geni 18:41, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Lack of a criticism section

Nearly every public figure with a Wikipedia page has a Criticism section yet there is only passing mention of the extensive human rights abuses perpetuated by Kim Jong-Il. This information should be included in this article because it is a defining characteristic of Kim Jong-Il's rule and a fairly large component of his job performance as a world leader. --Ambigera 22:10, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I came here to echo that exact sentiment. This article is a complete and total whitewash. There's no mention of the status of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea as one of the poorest nations in the world, the public executions, the concentration camps, and other issues. Is this the best Wikipedia can do? Viriditas (talk) 09:01, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

There already is criticism of the DPRK, just go to the country page. Whitewash nothing, you just have to look in the right place. User:n/a (User talk:n/a) 013:29, 30 May 2009 (PST) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.130.155.151 (talk)

I agree. This man is responsbile for starving millions of North Koreans to death, he has concentration camps placed around the country that enslave and murder families. This article doesn't say one peep about it. In fact, I'd go so far to say that someone actually FAVORS Kim who wrote it and that is disgusting. Shame on the editors for portraying a murderous dictator this way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.108.28.14 (talk) 21:07, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Then change it! Just use RS or they'll shoot ya down real quick. Like, you have to get evidence of SOMEBODY ELSE who criticized the regime. There are plenty of sources for that.67.212.40.244 (talk) 05:01, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

His Death

Is this worth noting? http://www.japantoday.com/category/kuchikomi/view/north-koreas-kim-died-in-2003-and-was-replaced-by-lookalike-says-waseda-profesor —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.164.80.71 (talk) 16:06, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion, no. The article itself would struggle to pass muster here. It itself notes that claims are made without citing sources. I also struggle to see how a spy satellite in orbit could possibly be used to measure the height of a person from above. Trigonometry is all well and good but even allowing for that the margin of error in such calculations would vastly exceed the claims being made. It's an interesting article, but in much the same way on on whether Elvis lives in Beijing. Srushe (talk) 16:49, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, even if correct, height measurements are not evidence. Different shoes could account for that easily. Esn (talk) 06:44, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Well someone has added it. I don't agree that it should be there but I've left it. I have added some requests for better citations and information though. Srushe (talk) 21:02, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

The existence of a notable rumour is strongly sourced now, there's even a best selling Japanese book on the topic. So long as the article makes it clear that this is but published rumour and speculation, there are few worries about carrying this in the text. This said, the bit about satellite photos is way thin without further sourcing and I wouldn't suggest putting that in the article. Moreover, this could all be clever disinformation by the wiley Kim and/or others. Gwen Gale (talk) 06:42, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

The only problem with how "strongly sourced" it is is that there's really just one source. And even that one source is drawing conclusions based on heresay and indirect evidence. I don't know if it should be included or not, but the current paragraph seems to be somewhat large if it's all just based on a single person's speculation. (undue weight and all that) 209.90.134.131 (talk) 05:22, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

There are three sources cited, not one. Yes, rumours are hearsay. The hearsay is notable (there's a best selling book in Japan, which is apparently what you describe as "one" source) and the notable hearsay is described as such, rumours. Given the secrecy about Kim, it's hardly undue weight to note best-selling speculation about him. Gwen Gale (talk) 05:24, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Erm... no... just one source. News articles quoting Shigemura's theory, and Shigemura's book, do not count as multiple sources. And the undue weight concerns the length of the section speculating about his death. If someone is notably forwarding the theory that he's dead other than Shigemura, and I'm just missing it, then by all means, feel free to tell me where I'm wrong.

However, as a secondary note, the more recent theories that he may simply be ill are also in the same section.

Because that section is now addressing his health in more ways than just the assumption of his death, perhaps the title of the section should be changed to "Current Health". Additionally, it may solve both problems to change the title and combine the two paragraphs so it doesn't look like two separate entries (and doesn't put so much focus on a single person's theory) 209.90.134.118 (talk) 18:14, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

The book is covered by more than one source. Gwen Gale (talk) 20:56, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Um... yes... the book is covered by more than one source... I don't understand your point.

Yes, multiple sources covering the book does, indeed, confirm that the book exists, and may even be worth mentioning. However, Shigemura appears to be the only notable source actually propagating the theory. Everyone else is just saying what Shigemura thinks. As such, in the absence of anyone else propagating the theory, there's only so much space that his theory warrants in this article to avoid undue weight. 209.90.134.118 (talk) 21:19, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

The multiple sources tend to confer some notability to the book and the topic. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:25, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)I don't understand. Is there a communication issue here? Am I poorly expressing myself? I didn't argue that it shouldn't be mentioned at all. As near as I can tell, that's all you're addressing. I'm talking about whether or not it's being given undue weight in terms of the extent of its mention. On the other hand, CNN has been covering suspicions about his illness all day and that only gets a single sentence. What I don't understand is why that paragraph can't be better integrated to address questions about his health in general, and not focus only on a single person's theory. 209.90.134.118 (talk) 21:34, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

In the absence of meaningful public information about his life, books like this will tend to take on much more weight in published sources. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:39, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

(btw, could you please try to keep your indenting a little more reasonable? It's getting a little silly) Again, I'm not saying that the book (or Shigemura) shouldn't be mentioned, but simply that an entire paragraph is a little much. The fact that there's virtually no other sources isn't an argument that there should be even more content relating to the book; it's an argument for having the theory of him being dead be very small. But, again, what would be wrong with expanding the mentions of him possibly being 'gravely ill' a bit, and merging it into the previous paragraph, and then renaming the section "Suspected Health Issues" (or something similar) 209.90.134.118 (talk) 21:44, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Wow. That's actually a great improvement to the article. I still think Shigemura's work is emphasized a little too much, but framed in the context of a larger section, I gotta admit, it really doesn't look bad. :)

I don't know why you've taken such a disliking to me, but it's the articles that matter, and I have to admit that this is far better than anything I could've written. A significant imrpovement indeedy. 209.90.134.118 (talk) 03:02, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

The fact that it is being given significant coverate by reputable news outlets (BBC,Reuters, AFP) surely makes it notable and inclusion would be valid. None of them are citing Shigemura. Yes it's rumour, but it passes WP:BLP, WP:V and WP:RS (including the bit about reporting rumours). The rumour has been denied by North Korea so it passes WP:NPOV too. 203.7.140.3 (talk) 04:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Remember, verifiability, not truth. 74.125.57.241 (talk) 14:01, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

David Letterman says he has a brother named Mentally Ill

He doesn't call him mentally ill.

Just so someone else doesn't misread this, the unsigned editor here wasn't suggesting that Jong-il has a brother named ment-ally ill. He was saying that the Fictional portrayals section of the article has a minor error in it related to one of Letterman's jokes.

Personally, I don't really watch Letterman, so I can't say if he's right or wrong. (For that matter, I don't know why that little mention is even significant. Calling him "lil kim", or making a joke about an imaginary brother aren't even 'portrayals' of him, are they?) 209.90.134.118 (talk) 18:54, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

You are right in how you read my problem with the artcile. Thank you 167.206.75.157 (talk) 19:48, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I've removed that entire section as unsourced and unencyclopedic.  Frank  |  talk  19:49, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

And I applaud your improvement of the article. :) 209.90.134.118 (talk) 19:59, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Personality Cult

{{editsemiprotected}} The main page currently says "Critics[who?] maintain Kim Jong-il is the centre of an elaborate personality cult inherited from his father and founder of the DPRK, Kim Il-sung. Defectors[who?]have been quoted as saying that North Korean schools deify both father and son, teaching that they do not urinate or defecate like mortal humans.[49][need quote]He is often the centre of attention throughout ordinary life in the DPRK. His birthday is one of the most important public holidays in the country. On his 60th birthday (based on his official date of birth), mass celebrations occurred throughout the country.[50]"

References to this are easily obtained. For example, a story in the Christian Science Monitor, January 3, 2007, "N. Korea escalates 'cult of Kim' to counter West's influence" by Robert Marquand, found here: http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0103/p01s04-woap.html, notes that the tide of foreign ideas and products are considered a threat to the regime, and uses a personality cult to counter it. Marquand cites a doctoral thesis by Lee Jong Heon at Chung-Ang University in Seoul, who claims that Kim's personality cult outstrips Mao's at the height of the cultural revolution. Mr. Marquand quotes former South Korean Foreign Minister Han Sung Joo as saying "Every speech says Kim Il Sung is still alive. I think if I stayed another two weeks, I might even see Kim Il Sung. The country worships someone who is deceased, as if he is alive."

--Knldgmanic (talk) 03:40, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but you can't just say "Critics[who?] maintain Kim Jong-il is the centre of an elaborate personality cult". Even if you cite a reference. You must give an example of who these critics are. The above statement is not acceptable as Encyclopedic content. It is not verifiable. Also, the reference cited is a book, but there is no quotation, which is needed. These so called critics could be anyone, and a clear example must be given, IN THE ARTICLE. Read the wikipedia article on weasel words, and you will find that this statement is a weasel word, and rightly should have the "who" tag, and it was me who kept putting it in, and you must be the person who wrongly kept removing it. Until you conclude the above sentence by giving an example of WHO these critics are, and citing a reference, it should continue to have the who tag.Guitar3000 (talk) 17:38, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

The page is only semi-protected. Any established editor can edit the article. Yes, I agree the cult of personality is easily supported with reliable sources, all those cite tags aren't needed. Gwen Gale (talk) 03:55, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

 Done--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 18:40, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes it should, the sentence Critics[who?] maintain Kim Jong-il is the centre of an elaborate personality cult" is a weasel word. Even if there are reliable sources, it still needs to be cited, you are wrong here.Guitar3000 (talk) 17:40, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Died Suffering after a stroke

Reputable news agencies are now reporting that Kim has suffered a minor stroke.[4][5] 203.7.140.3 (talk) 06:37, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Utter secrecy due to the form of government and military secrets I added NYT, BBC, CNN and Reuters etc. on - Several reports and counter reports on collapse stroke surgery and reuters fact box on successor - since, readers must deeply understand that unlike in USA, UK and Philippines, inter alia, utter secrecy prevents the unfolding of the truth on his health. RUMOR is not really a rumor under the circumstances It is true he died. --Florentino floro (talk) 09:11, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm just waiting for the headline "Kim Il-sung's son Kim Jong-il ill". McWomble (talk) 09:50, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Says he had a cerebral hemorrhage? http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/09/10/asia/north.php ṜέđṃάяķvюĨїήīṣŢ ^{Drop me a line} 16:15, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Silver chopsticks

I removed the bit about silver chopsticks being used in the Forbidden City/to detect poison as it is OR. One reference provided mentions his use of silver chopsticks. However it doesn't mention anything about them being used to detect poison. The other reference mentions they were said to detect poison, but doesn't say anything about Kim. Putting these together, therefore implying there may be some connection between Kim using silver chopsticks and their historic use to detect poison is a form of OR. Nil Einne (talk) 12:28, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Photos of Kim Jong-il now available

There are now photos of Kim Jong-il available on Commons, albeit with Vladimir Putin. The photos are from Kremlin.ru, which we now have permission to use, and I will leave it up to editors of this article to pick and include photos where possible and necessary. Take advantage of this resource. Commons:Category:Kim Jong Il --Russavia ^{Dialogue Stalk me} 02:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Widespread conjecture Kim Jong-il health?

Widespread conjecture began circulating 19 October 2008 ahead of official North Korean Government announcement that Kim Jong-il's health condition has caused an internal crisis. News reports: North Korean boarders have been sealed, Diplomats told not to travel pending announcement October 20th. Times-on-Line: Envoy alert fuels Kim Jong-il rumours The Canadian Press: South Korea skeptical about reports of major changes in the North —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boul22435 (talk • contribs) 23:40, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Fake Photograph

People examining the recent photograph of Kim Jong-il have shown that it is fake. The most obvious mistake is the way Kim's shadow falls differently to everyone else's, but close-ups reveal sharp lines in the pixels around Kim's legs, indicating that two images have been put together. Try here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7715458.stm. Of course, maybe Kim's intellect is just so massive that the light bends around him differently. :) 92.22.81.160 (talk) 17:50, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Ouch. Hope someone didn't win a vacation at Camp 22 in Haengyong over that little botch. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:04, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, the Scientific American (hardly a pro-DPRK publication) says the photos are real

http://www.sciam.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=did-north-korea-fake-photos-of-kim-2008-11-10 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Troublemaker1973 (talk • contribs) 13:20, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

NOPE says there is no evidence they are fake, doesn't prove they are real, read the end of the article 01:14, 20 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.227.231.86 (talk)

That's a weird response... if there's no evidence they are fake, then there is no reason to be suspicious. All other photos on Wikipedia have "no evidence they are fake", so according to you, should we be equally suspicious of those? If these are photoshops then I am extremely impressed with their work. Read the article from Scientific American, and you can see that the allegations the BBC put against the photos doesn't stand up to scrutiny. FFLaguna (talk) 20:06, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the image more carefully, many months later, I didn't think it looked faked. Then, after reading the SA piece, my own outlook is that there's no meaningful reason to even ask about this photo. Gwen Gale (talk) 10:13, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

At least one thing in the photo looks fake -- The two men on either side of Kim have identical headgear, but the shadows of their heads differ. The shadow of the man on Kim's left looks correct (fur cap), but the shadow of the man on the right is much larger and looks more like that of a Russian-style peaked cap. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.2.204.228 (talk) 02:12, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

The shadows fall on soldiers standing behind them: If the stand is even slightly curved (as many are), with the sunlight coming from such a low angle, the shadows would indeed not be the same. Gwen Gale (talk) 05:21, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Birth

I suggest we remove the following:

- "Kim Jong-il's official biography[4] states that he was born in a secret military camp on Baekdu Mountain (백두산) in northern Korea on 16 February 1942.[5] Official biographers claim that his birth at Baekdu Mountain was foretold by a swallow, and heralded by the appearance of a double rainbow over the mountain and a new star in the heavens."

There is no point including such fairy stories on the page. If people want to learn more about this propaganda then they can read the book. We could replace it with "Kim Jong-il's official biography suggests more humourous origins." 92.22.81.160 (talk) 22:16, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Strong oppose. This is his official biography (apparently) according to North Korean sources. Whether it is fact or fantasy is of no concern to us; we have a duty to cover it regardless. "Humourous origins" is blatant POV and OR, and unacceptable. PC78 (talk) 11:28, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Oppose - keep themBoth the official and unofficial tales are covered by verifiable documentation and both should be in the article. Gwen Gale (talk) 11:35, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Oppose - Keep the passage. It provides important insight into North Korea's depth of propoganda. FFLaguna (talk) 20:08, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. The purpose of the info is obviously not to "help spread the legend as if it were knowledge," but rather to portray to the reader the nature of the propaganda about him. Tragic romance (talk) 22:32, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Compromise. Just cover both sides. Or if there isn't another, factual side (RS), then just note that it came from his propaganda. Just say its propaganda and that's pretty neutral really. Don't criticize, just say what it is and let the reader make his/her own mind up.67.212.40.244 (talk) 05:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Reliable sources

I've tagged this article as requiring more reliable sources. Although individual sources are tagged as unreliable, there are so many unreliable sources quoted it affects the entire article.

The sheer number of sources from Pyongyang which will have been compiled under state 'guidance' is concerning. I also imagine the 'Daily NK' or Western media (Fox, for example) are reliable.

Reliability is probably not going to be achieved, but the reader should at least know this. Computerjoe's talk 17:52, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the tag as its use here seems far too heavy handed. So far as I can see, a large majority of the citations in the article are from Western media sources, not North Korean ones, and as you say the more problematic ones are already tagged. Per WP:V, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". PC78 (talk) 19:03, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Western media no doubt presents a very balanced view towards the DPRK… WP:BLP tells us we 'Ask yourself whether the source is reliable; whether the material is being presented as true'. Is what the DPRK says true or reliable? But are Western claims true or reliable over such a controversial figure? Regarding North Korean sources, WP:SELFPUB applies. I'd dare say any material about Kim Jong-il from the DPRK is effectively 'self-published' due to his control of printing presses! Is DPRK propaganda not 'unduly self-serving' and is there 'no reason to doubt its authenticity'? I think any North Korean sources are unreliable. But as said, Western media will also effectively act as anti-North Korean propaganda, which isn't reliable either. This is why I believe the tag should be added. Computerjoe's talk 22:34, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing in WP:SELFPUB that seems to cover this sort of thing, nor do I think that North Korean sources are inherantly unreliable. While I don't think there is any doubt over the nature of North Korean state media, political bias is something that exists in mainstream Western media as well (albeit not to such an extreme degree, but still). If I'm understanding your comments correctly then I believe your concerns are with regard to WP:NPOV, but I don't see any real problem with the article except for the "Early political career" section, which relies exclusively on NK sources and should perhaps be tagged with {{POV-section}}. But to ensure that the article is neutral and balanced, then all viewpoints—including North Korean ones—need to be included. PC78 (talk) 16:47, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I realise all viewpoints must be included but my problem is this source, due to its nature cannot have reliable sources. Anything involving this man, Western or North Korean, is biased so we must question the reliability of the information we are getting. I have tagged that section at {{pov-section}}. Computerjoe's talk 19:24, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

NB I'm afk until Monday. Computerjoe's talk 23:16, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

60th birthday

That he had a big 60th birthday is not significant, since in Korean culture the sixtieth birthday is traditionally a big event (e.g. 21st birthday in the West). A Westerner not knowing this may take it as yet another exaggerated fete in honour of Kim, but this in itself is really not notable. It can be deleted from the article IMO. 118.90.45.84 (talk) 11:42, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Propaganda with absence of sources

I saw this: "Kim is said to be a fan of luxury cars, and has been known for racing his cars at his palaces. Kim had spent $20,000,000 on importing 200 new Mercedes Benz S500 luxury sedans, adding to North Korea's fleet of 7,000 Mercedes cars"

Well I do doubt it is imperialist propaganda but believe that unsourced statements which further a point-of-view should be removed. I presume no-one has any objections. I suggest similar steps are taken with other statements. Computerjoe's talk 22:08, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

media interpretaion is ambigious

the article reads:"One point of view is that Kim Jong Il's cult of personality is solely out of respect for Kim Il-sung or out of fear of punishment for failure to pay homage.[70] Media and government sources from outside of North Korea generally support this view" This should be rephrased or deleted:whoever wrote this, clearly express their own personal opinion and not fact: when it says

"Media and government sources from outside of North Korea generally support this view" this is nonsense: you can always find an article somewhere that will support any point of view. Sure, the state media says it's genuine hero worship, it could be acceptable, but the "Media and government sources from outside of North Korea generally support this view" is nonsense: does that mean I could write an article for any media group and it would be "fact"> also, it doesn't give clear government sources. This statement is clearly biased, and anyone who knows what is acceptable on wikipedia should agree with me on that one. I want to delete or rephrase it, a bit of feedback would be good.

But it's unacceptable as it is.Guitar3000 (talk) 14:39, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Child with South Korean actress

I live in Seoul, and it is widely known here that the Dear Leader fathered a child with a South Korean actress. The story goes that when he first met South Korean leaders during the Sunshine Policy years, he specifically asked that the South Korean actress be bought to the meeting. She was convinced to come along. After her return to South Korea, she dropped out of the limelight and bore the Dear Leader's illegitimate child. I've been unable to find written evidence of this widespread story, and therefore cannot add it to the article. Can anyone help? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.240.61.2 (talk) 04:11, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

If the story is "widely known" but there is no written evidence, it is likely an urban legend. Anything "well known" of such significance would be widely reported in the media. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.101.157.225 (talk) 08:39, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually, no. Korean media outlets collude to cover up these sorts of things. I was told the story about the Dear Leader's child with the actress by five South Korean women who I was teaching English to. They said it was kept quiet because it would make the South Korean government look bad (because they pressured the actress into sleeping with the Dear Leader). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.143.59.94 (talk) 15:55, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Look at the stories about Choi Eun-hee —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.68.182.211 (talk) 16:00, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Atheist?

Is there any proof he's a atheist? - 72.9.18.179 (talk) 03:08, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

He's the leader of a stalinist state. Stalinism discourages religion. Zazaban (talk) 22:41, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Can someone be called an atheist when they believe themselves to be a living god? Ninahexan (talk) 01:25, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Now there's a damned good question. 76.95.40.6 (talk) 13:32, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Autotheist? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.193.164.178 (talk) 14:18, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

That is a brilliant question.118.71.10.155 (talk) 03:39, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

The idea that Kim is not an Atheist is ludicrous. A cult of hero-worship does not indicate religious belief. Kim is obviously an atheist, in a country so dedicated to Socialism, so anti-religious, it would be absurd to think that the leader himself was a religious man. It isn't the job of Wikipedia to change history, it is absurd how when you look up famous dictators and villains you find that people have changed the page in order to bring it in line with their own beliefs, instead of simply stating the facts. That is why we have articles written to make it seem like Hitler was a pagan or that Kim Jong-Il is religious. --Sunoco (talk) 17:21, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Sunoco, anti-religion does not equate to atheism, you can be against organized religion, yet still believe in a God. There isn't any sources that state he is an atheist —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.166.236.54 (talk) 01:40, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Sunoco, maybe you would be interested in reading up on socialism, you can start with the wiki page for christian socialism if you like. The article on political religion is also quite interesting, and I believe might provide some food for thoughts about why Kim Jong Il seems not to have made note of his religious beliefs, and why other religions have been apparently persecuted. Ninahexan (talk) 04:04, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Great Dictator ? Or Greatest Dictator?

Most of this content is not exactly neutral. How many of the edits are being made from North Korea and China?

Kim is officially called Great Leader by his government (not "Great Dictator"), this is an update on Dear Leader, all widely published, verifiable and put forth straightforwardly in the text. If you have reliably sourced content (which is not easy to find) you'd like to see in the article, please do bring it forward. Gwen Gale (talk) 00:42, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

---

not Great Dictator, he is the Dear Dictator ;)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by R (talk • contribs) 15:05, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Unconfirmed rumors and speculation about a living person

From the article:

Unconfirmed reports suggest that 5 year old Kim Jong-il may have caused the accident.^[3] In 1949, his mother died in childbirth.^[4] Again unconfirmed reports suggest that his mother may have been shot and left to bleed to death.^[5]

The first and last statements are pure speculation. I realize that not much is known about Kim Jong-Il, but this seems a little bit far-fetched, don't you think? The references to both statements are to a book "Leaders and Followers in a Dangerous World" which as far as I can tell offers no actual evidence for either of these claims. The article refers to them as "unconfirmed", as if that some how makes it ok.

I realize that Kim Jong-Il is not generally well regarded but WP:BIO still applies -- suggesting that as a 5 year old he drowned his brother in a pool and was somehow involved in his mother's death as a child is bordering on slanderous, especially when there's absolutely no evidence that either of these things is true. This is like going to George W. Bush's WP article and adding "Unconfirmed reports suggest that George Bush beat Laura on a regular basis and was having an affair with Condi Rice", and then referencing those claims by linking to some hysterical book that makes that claim. It's a relevant comparison because Bush too is not well liked by a large segment of the population and as a result there are many decidedly NPOV sources floating around out there that we could find to reference any claim, no matter how ridiculous. "Unconfirmed reports" may as well be the National Enquirer.

I suggest we delete those two statements and their sources (which incidentally, are to a google books search, not to a specific page or paragraph). 209.165.164.90 (talk) 13:01, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm removing the ridiculous claim about the brother. As for the mother bit, from what you posted it doesn't directly implicate him so maybe it's fine to leave that there. 174.97.235.154 (talk) 20:19, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Nevermind... this page is protected. Grrrrrr.... 174.97.235.154 (talk) 20:20, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Is there a Kim Jong-Il "facts" page similar to the Chuck Norris Facts "information" on the web?

I heard that KJI, his secret nickname, once played 18 holes of golf and got a hole-in-one on every hole. Apparently, some people believe this. Can anyone provide a link to any other KJI "facts" ? --Torchpratt (talk) 14:38, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Ability to manipulate time and space?

I know the paragraph title sounds like I'm a troll, but I have a serious question. Along with "supernatural" events that foretold his birth, it is apparently the position of Kim Jong Il's official biography that he is able to manipulate time and space. I looked for additional info on this, but am unable to find it. Anyone know anything more about this?

Just so you know I'm not completely making this up, here is a cryptic reference to this fact in a foreign policy (FP) article:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4878&page=7 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.98.156.16 (talk) 11:22, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I know they think he can control the weather, and blind people who've been restored with cataract surgery think he has restored their sight, so it wouldn't surprise me. Although I think it's funny that he consistently blames "foreign powers" for his country's troubles, while he supposedly has these great abilities. Tragic romance (talk) 22:47, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Children should be listed

All of Kim's children should be listed in this article. Badagnani (talk) 10:45, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Alkoholism?

I've heard on some media reports that Kim is said to be a heavy drinker, does anyone have any sources about that? 217.87.192.10 (talk) 14:19, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

The word is, he has quit smoking and drinking for health reasons. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:56, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Education and beyond.

http://www.korea-dpr.com/library/103.pdf

This source is listed 12 times in the "Education" and "Early Political Career" sections. It is clearly propaganda, as it is unsubstantiated, obviously hyperbolic, and attributed to a likely biased source. I propose that all information in the article attributed to this source be deleted unless it can be verified through another, more reliable means. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Datatable (talk • contribs) 09:19, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

The text could do with some rewording, to make it clear where the source comes from, but many readers can read between the lines, like you. I wouldn't rm the content over this. Gwen Gale (talk) 09:58, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

juche

I find this reverted edit highly clever, funny and oddly fitting, juche can indeed be taken as a kind of nationalistic religion, however it is more widely taken as an ideology and it's a stretch to put it into this bucket without a source showing KJi has asserted this as his own religion. Gwen Gale (talk) 12:01, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Children?

Why no discussion of his children? (and/or the women he was involved with to produce offspring) Kim Jong-nam is his eldest son, and he has at least 2 more sons, I believe. Hogvillian (talk) 17:40, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

There is indeed discussion of his children. However, I'm aware of many sources about them and more could be done in the text. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:47, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Plan to bring moon to North Korea

Can anyone confirm or deny the alligation that the North Korean President Kim Jong-il attempted to bring the moon to North Korea? 75.69.128.175

It's nonsense, as I'm sure you know. It was a report from The Onion. srushe (talk) 07:15, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Penis Size

I can't find the article now, but a year or so back it was published in USA TODAY that he claimed to have a 11 inch penis and would often need 3 or 4 women to satisfy him.

What can I say, he's a classy guy... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.202.94.99 (talk) 13:34, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Hahahahaha...no. Mrxuinthehouse (talk) 02:06, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

See also links

(Redacted) 12:34, 8 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by I'll have the fish (talk • contribs)

Although I, too, think Kim Jong-Il as an evil man, that stuff can't be put on the wikipedia article. The reason is that wikipedia takes a neutral point of view stance; thus, opinions, whether in promotion or denouncement of Kim Jong-Il or anyone/anything else, are not allowed on wikipedia. Backtable^{Speak to Me}about what I have done 20:31, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Man or woman

Stephen Colbert referred to him as a woman. Which makes me wonder if I was mistaken that he is a man. 192.118.11.120 (talk) 00:46, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Kim Jong-Il is indeed a man. On the Colbert Report, Stephen Colbert likes to make jokes very frequently. That was probably an instance where he was either telling a joke leading up to a joke. Backtable^{Speak to Me}about what I have done 03:50, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Had child with Maya?

It appears that the link to "Kim Young Sook" in the family tree is pointing to the wrong person (Maya). Can someone fix that?--76.182.219.106 (talk) 05:11, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

This appears to have been fixed, to my eye.—C45207 | Talk 22:50, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

CNN Statement in lead

{{editsemiprotected}}

Is the statement "CNN has described Kim as one of the most mysterious leaders in the world" really necessary in the lead? I have no problem with the factual accuracy, but this statement looks a little bit odd and disconnected in the lead, especially due the qualifier that CNN has described him as mysterious. 76.117.1.254 (talk) 03:22, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Not done for now: What would you recommend instead? — Deon^talk_{I'm BACK!} 02:38, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

And I mean they did actually say it ([6]), so there's probably no harm in including it, but as I mentioned above: suggest an alternative and we'll see. — Deon^talk_{I'm BACK!} 02:42, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Two leaders

Both this page and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Yong-nam name the respective subjects as the de facto leaders (individually). Should this be changed in the other article? aigiqinf (talk) 06:53, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Cowboy Hat

I would like to see at least one of the pictures of him wearing a cowboy hat. --41.17.128.80 (talk) 14:53, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

WPK or KWP

The Worker's Party of Korea is referenced in one place as KWP "KoreanWorker's Party". I suggest to uniform all references as "Worker's Party of Korea" and the acronym to WPK as it is defined in the page for that organization. Mariostorti (talk) 21:03, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Health

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Clintonkimjongil.jpg

need to add this in. rumors of his death/bad health. i believe this is the most recent photo of him. august 4th? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.90.155.7 (talk) 22:14, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Great at golf

He is very well known for 'scoring' (I don't know the proper term) 5 holes-in-one the very first time he played golf. For some reason it isn't mentioned. I guess his busy political schedule stops him from going pro and representing his country at the masters. Its very unfortunate, as Korea DPR doesn't have many good golfers (none that would challenge that mad shagger Tiger Woods anyway). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.202.94.99 (talk) 13:39, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Dear leader/great leader

Just to clarify, Kim Jong-Il is known as the dear leader, and is never known as the great leader. Kim Il-sung is referred to as the great leader. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.43.59.133 (talk) 22:31, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Add new picture

{{editsemiprotected}} please add new picture: Kimjongil.png --KurtR (talk) 10:44, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

There is no file with the name, File:Kimjongil.png. Please be sure you spelled it correctly, and note that Wikipedia titles are case-sensitive. Intelligentsium 01:31, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

sorry, my fault. the right one is: Kim Jong-Il.jpg thanks for editing. --KurtR (talk) 04:51, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

DVD collection

It is stated that he has the world's biggest, DVD collection standing at 20,000. Should we include this? (86.170.161.100 (talk) 13:56, 6 January 2010 (UTC))

He's long been noted as a "film buff," if a reliable source can be cited as to any DVD collection, I'd think it would be ok to put something in the article about it. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:15, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Will this be good?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/kim-jong-il.htm

(86.170.161.100 (talk) 01:33, 9 January 2010 (UTC))

Typo

Search for this: "present),in which". It's a typo. It should read: "present), in which" (note the space after the comma).

Resolved

Kim Jong-il has a sister

I think we should find more about Kim Jong-il's sister Kim Kyong-Hui (김경희). There is an AFP news article, Sister of N.Korea leader 'wielding more power' (Feb 17, 2009) describing few details about her. Komitsuki (talk) 05:41, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Supreme Leader? Great Leader?

{{editsemiprotected}} I'm an anon user and can't edit this article, but it would be good if somebody removed the "Supreme Leader" title beneath Kim's portrait, did the same in the Official Titles section, and struck the capitalization from said title in the second to last sentence of the introduction. As the Wikipedia article states (with language taken from the linked BBC article), the revised constitution of the DPRK refers to him as the "supreme leader" implicitly (rather than explicitly) and the title is not capitalized in the source. The BBC capitalizes official titles and states' constitutions never implicitly confer official titles (they do so explicitly). State information in the DPRK tends to be effluent in its application of unofficial laudatory titles to Kim and it's likely that there's some of that in the new constitution. Hence the BBC's use of the word "implicitly" and their choice not to capitalize the title.

Also, it's probably best to remove the title "Great Leader" from Official Titles section and the last sentence of the introduction. The PDF link its use is sourced from is broken and "Great Leader" is an official title of Kim Il-sung. It would be surprising if Kim the Younger had been given his father's title considering that the latter is still officially the President of the DPRK and its use in other credible sources always refers to the Elder.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.244.169.73 (talk) 20:14, May 13, 2010

Respectfully Not done for now:, simply because I think this requires a bit more discussion. That's not to imply that these are particularly contentious edits.. just saying it'd probably be better if you could first demonstrate consensus by getting support from at least one or two other editors knowledgeable about the subject (I don't feel qualified myself) and then try the editsemiprotected template again.

However, considering this article has been semi-protected for 3 years now.. I'm more inclined to just unprotect the article and see how it fares. But that's another matter to discuss.. anyone object to either? -- œ^™ 07:53, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Neutral point of view?

Seriously people, there SHOULD be a "criticism" section on this page. Who edited this, the man himself? --Olijven (talk) 18:00, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I believe that we should add the name "douchey-smurf" to his list of titles. I believe it is a rather cute nickname for him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.59.240.239 (talk) 18:26, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 79.115.13.42, 17 June 2010

{{editsemiprotected}}

Dictatorial crimes

Many people in North Korea have been imprisoned or killed for speaking out against the Kim regime. Almost everyone in North Korea wears a small pin with a picture of Kim Jŏng-Il or Kim Il-Sŏng on it. North Korean defectors have testified to the existence of prison and detention camps with an estimated 150,000 to 200,000 inmates (about 0.85% of the population), and have reported torture, starvation, rape, murder, medical experimentation, forced labour, and forced abortions.[155] Convicted political prisoners and their families are sent to these camps, where they are prohibited from marrying, required to grow their own food, and cut off from external communication (which was previously allowed).North Korean citizens cannot freely travel around the country or go abroad.[1][2] Only the political elite may own vehicles and the government limits access to fuel and other forms of transportation. (Satellite photos of North Korea show an almost complete lack of vehicles on all of the roads.) Forced resettlement of citizens and families, especially as punishment for political reasons, is said to be routine.

Only the most politically reliable and healthiest citizens are allowed to live in Pyongyang. Those who are suspected of sedition, or have family members suspected of it, are removed from the city; similar conditions affect those who are physically or mentally disabled in some way (the only exception being Korean War veterans with injuries relating to the conflict). This can be a significant method of coercion as food and housing are said to be much better in the capital city.

Environment – current issues: localized air pollution attributable to inadequate industrial controls; water pollution; inadequate supplies of potable water; deforestation. Lack of information makes it difficult to assess the extent to which industrialization and urbanization have damaged North Korea's natural environment. Using generally obsolete technology transferred from the former Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China, the country embarked on a program of ambitious industrialization after the Korean War.

Air pollution is moderated by the extensive reliance on electricity rather than on fossil fuels, both for industry and the heating of urban residences. Air pollution is further limited by the absence of private automobiles and restrictions on using gasoline-powered vehicles because of the critical shortage of petroleum.

Significant deforestation since the 1990s, due to timber and firewood harvesting, drought, and clearing of farmland. Degradation of farmland due to deforestation has been blamed as a contributing factor in declining crop yields.

Can I get a request to modify something here by adding to Kim Jong Il? 79.115.13.42 (talk) 05:50, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 79.115.13.42, 17 June 2010

{{editsemiprotected}}

Can I get a request to modify something here by adding to Kim Jong Il? 79.115.13.42 (talk) 05:52, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. SpigotMap 13:22, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Question

Should he really be referred to by his first name throughout the article? Should he not be referred to as "Jong-Il"? ArtistScientist (talk) 02:42, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

"Kim" is his family name. "Jong-il" is his personal name. As is common in East Asia, the family name comes first. — Gavia immer (talk) 02:50, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

personality

I think the psychological evaluation bit is pretty ridiculous. It works on the assumption that Kim Jong Il is an insane dictator and that we must therefore analyse him to see what makes him such an evil man. It is quite obiously POV, particularly the way it is presented. I'm not saying the claims of such psychologists should not be included, but they should be put into a proper context, which is a highly anti-Kim one, not a neutral one as this article purports to suggest.86.176.86.224 (talk) 09:20, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Having no axe to grind and knowing nothing about the man before reading this article, I'd agree he is i. verging on the insane and ii. a dictator. Having a NPOV is fine. But it shouldnt get in the way of the truth. Wembwandt (talk) 19:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Among many things, he's a politician. Verifiable, sourced PoV is ok, so long as it's indeed put forth in the text as published opinion. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:40, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 91.84.90.125, 26 July 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} He is a dictator that has enslaved hundred's if not thousands and is respnsible for countless deaths. This page does not highlight his more horrific tendencies as a human being.

91.84.90.125 (talk) 21:46, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Requests to edit semi-protected articles must be accompanied by reference(s) to reliable sources. If you can supply such a reference, please reinstate your request. Thanks,  Chzz  ►  02:09, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

 Not done

Pictures

I noticed the pictures keep changing and some are gone. The picture of him with his family is gone. Also i think we should find a better infobox picture of him thats not cropped. Spongie555 (talk) 05:48, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Is the real Kim Jong-il dead, and his role being played by a double?

Is the real Kim Jong-il dead, and his role being played by a double?. A possibility. Komitsuki (talk) 13:00, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Succeeded By ?

Erm - Surely he's not dead yet - surely we shouldn't be pre-empting the succession details, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.171.166.237 (talk) 05:24, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

No, I dont think so. The succesion speculations should be there as that will be giving a brief idea of who the other important people in Nk are SONI (talk) 17:34, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from ABERMON, 14 November 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} Kim Jong-il also invented a well-known website called funnyjunk.com.

ABERMON (talk) 23:11, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

I too, have heard of this. Why is it not on here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.17 (talk) 23:51, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

•  Not done Please provide WP:RS for that assertion The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 23:57, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
• Please note, user User:ABERMON has been adding this "funnyjunk.com" spammy nonsense to the Kim Jong Un article. He's been warned on his talkpage 2x and reverted 3x at Kim Jong Un. I will report to AIV if there's any more. Saebvn (talk) 00:00, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

• As of the timestamp that follows, I have reported user:ABERMON to AIV for continued addition of the "funnyjunk" sentence to Kim Jong Un. Saebvn (talk) 00:20, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

I believe he goes by the name "Admin" on this website, no? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.172.96.250 (talk) 01:59, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Incorrect redirect

References to Kim Jong-il's wife Kim Young-sook confusingly redirect to his mother: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Young-sook http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-suk

PhilJeffcock (talk) 16:27, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Pancreatic Cancer Report

Was there really ever any validity to this report? It sounds like there never really was. And considering that this was first reported in July of 2009 and he's still alive now 1 year and 4 months later, I just doubt it. This cancer is usually discovered late and the average life expectancy from diagnosis is something like 3-6 months. I think only 20% or something like that live beyond 1 year. So considering those statistics, I'm led to believe one of three possibilities. First is that the story was fabricated or never true. Second, he has access to special treatment which normal citizens don't have. Or three, he is somehow one of the less than 20% who live 1 year and 4 months with one of the deadliest cancers. I'm not saying the mention of the report should be removed from the article but...I'm just not sure how relevant it is anymore. There were other reports saying that he would be dead before the end of 2009 and he's still alive at the end of 2010. I now see it's under the rumor section though. I guess if it belongs in the article, it's in the right place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.230.68.60 (talk) 23:52, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

missing a daughter?

It appears to me that this article (among others) misses Kims youngest daughter Yeo-Jong, daughter of Kim Jong-Il and Ko Young-hee. Sources: The Chosunilbo, nkleadershipwatchblog. The latter article mentions several Books and Magazines as sources, but I have not had the chance to check them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.73.177.227 (talk) 10:44, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

"Deified people" category

Kim Jong Il is not deified in the DPRK. He does not claim divinity nor does the government claim it on his behalf. He is, however, the subject of metaphorical praise and various legends created for social control, much like George Washington who couldn't tell a lie, or Honest Abe the rail-splitter, or Davy Crockett who killed a bear at the age of 3, or John F. Kennedy the universally loved king of Camelot. 24.22.217.162 (talk) 22:07, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

The single reference in the article supporting a deification is vague (and has been tagged as needing a page number for verification.) In any event, he does not fall into the criteria contained in List of people who have been considered deities. Please note that the people in the list are either historical (and now dead gods) or, if now living, directly associated with religions. In this case the notation that some people in nK consider him a deity should be omitted. As it stands it is a back-handed, strictly POV and unencyclopedic comment.--S. Rich (talk) 15:18, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

"De facto leader"

Also it isn't true that he's the "de facto leader" and not the official leader. The most recent constitution says that the NDC Chairman is the "supreme leader." Before that it was the "highest post in the state." In either case, it is a crystal-clear wording that contradicts the "de facto leader" claim of the article. 24.22.217.162 (talk) 22:07, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Let's be encyclopedic. The material I just deleted ["the official leader of the country is still his long-deceased father Kim Il-sung, the founder of the state."] is not appropriate. One, the first reference is a dead link. Two, the Hitchens material is pure op/ed and not factual; for example, he refers to Jong-il as a gargoyle -- should the article say "North Korea is lead by a gargoyle" based on Hitchens' description? Three, the constitution does not give dead eternal leader any role, powers, responsibilities, etc. normally associated with an office holder. With this in mind, it is not proper to describe dear dead leader as the "de jure" leader in contrast to any "de facto" leader. In fact, as the constitution gives specific responsibilities, powers, etc. to specific, living office holders -- these people are the "de jure" and "de facto" leaders. The description of "eternal leader" is purely honorific and is certainly not intended to imply that he has any active role in leading the country. Accordingly, the NPOV description of Jong-il as simply "leader" is appropriate.--S. Rich (talk) 15:56, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Military Brat category?

The following comments are cut&pasted from user talkpages regarding the category "military brat" for KJI--S. Rich (talk) 17:48, 8 February 2011 (UTC):

Posted by Maracana on my [S. Rich] talkpage:

Have you seen the talk page? Or is the category reserved for brave American soldier children? I see no people claiming that. Maracana (talk) 01:10, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I in no way intend it to be funny, and you really don't need to remind me what WP is and isn't. As you can see in the talk page I linked above (read especially "Criteria for inclusion") the category is not reserved for American people, it is a page about people who'se parents served in the military during the individuals childhood. This includes Kim very much. If you have problems I would suggest you went to the mentioned talk page to discuss the inclusion criterias. Maracana (talk) 01:30, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Furthermore, only a month ago the category was discussed during a deletion debate, and one of the main reasons for keeping the category was that it is not a term that is used for American people only. Maracana (talk) 02:05, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Posted by me [S. Rich] on Maracana's talkpage:

Look at Military brat to define. Jong-il's daddy may have been military at some point in time, but Jong-il himself was not the child of an active duty military person. Nor is the term used in Korea to describe people like him. Funny, yes, but WP is not an appropriate place for such humor. Still, thanks for the note.--S. Rich (talk) 01:24, 8 February 2011 (UTC)03:56, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I retract my comment about being funny. You are quite right about the military brat material being US centric, but most if not all of the RS on the subject will be American or western. Still, the military brat article gives a parameter or description of the term as being used in particular cultures. I rather doubt that PRK has a distinctive military brat subculture similar to that defined in the article. Indeed, as they maintain quite a large military, everyone in the country would fall into this ill-defined military brat subculture. In Kim Jong-il's case, he and his dad lived on the military base where Kim Il-sung was the commander until Jong-il was 3 or 4. Does he consider himself a "military brat"? Perhaps, but no RS says so. Back on the military brat articles themselves, perhaps the definition of military brat should be narrowed to those children or adults who consider themselves as military brats. This would give the articles and definition more precision, which is lacking.--S. Rich (talk) 03:56, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Kim in Team America

Should we include his appearance in Team America: World Police as a popular culture refrence or not? It doesn't appear to be there. -- 92.4.118.215 (talk) 22:58, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

He didn't appear in Team America: World Police. 24.177.120.138 (talk) 04:17, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

He plays a main role in Team America: World Police as the main antogonist. --Mista Parka, blad 21:17, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

No, a puppet supposed to be him and voiced by either Trey or Matt did. Not Kim Jong-il himself. --Nutthida (talk) 01:20, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

File:Kim Jong-il on North Korean stamps.JPG Nominated for Deletion

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King Jong-il looks at things

I've seen that Kim-Jong-il is exceptional at looking at things and feel that this could be added to the page as he is, in fact, vr well known for looking at things. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.33.148.205 (talk) 09:50, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Dead

Ap just reported his death. Tag please. Phearson (talk) 03:08, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/north-korea-supreme-leader-kim-jong-il-died-15185454 Phearson (talk) 03:09, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

I wonder if it was 17 or 18 December when he died? I suggest local time. --Octra Bond (talk) 03:14, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

It is the 19th where he is.Darkwarriorblake (talk) 03:16, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Kowp stated that it is 17. --Octra Bond (talk) 03:19, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Not sure what day he died. But pretty sure his death was reported on 19 December (Korea time), not 18. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.82.229.51 (talk) 03:24, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

The guy dies, and within minutes his Wikipedia entry is updated! Amazing! PiCo (talk) 03:18, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

He prob. died some time before their news organisation was allowed to report it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.209.161.195 (talk) 03:28, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

The infobox says 17th and the article says the 19th. Whichever one is the one we are going with, I think that we should stick to it :-/ . 99.51.12.212 (talk) 03:32, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

The death was reported on 19th local Korean time not 18th 180.181.22.171 (talk) 03:26, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

• That's when the death was reported. But when did he actually die? I initially read 18 December but 17 December and 19 December have been mentioned above. What do the best sources say?
• Also, dictatorial regimes might be tempted to avoid mentioning the leader's death for a little while so it's possible that future sources will give a slightly earlier date... but let's not jump the gun on that. bobrayner (talk) 03:29, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Found one: "The 69-year-old leader died on Saturday, December 17, at 8:30 am (2330 GMT Friday), a weeping announcer on state television said" [7] bobrayner (talk) 03:31, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

    Concluded. --Octra Bond (talk) 03:48, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Soviet or Japanese birth date?

Why for his age at death do we chose to use the Japanese date rather than the Soviet one? I mean, I have no preference, I'm just wondering why we're using one over the other. Therequiembellishere (talk) 03:41, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

It is North Korean record, not Japanese. Isn't his nation more reliable than another? --Octra Bond (talk) 03:54, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

You mean the same government that claims Kim regularly gets hole-in-ones while playing golf, has composed 6 operas, and other propoganda? Astronaut (talk) 04:05, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Remove semi-protection

The article currently states semi-protected because it is a biography of a living person. However, due to the recent passing of Kim Jong-il, can someone remove the lock?