Talk:Deaths in 2012
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Deaths in 2012 redirect. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5Auto-archiving period: 30 days ![]() |
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Deaths in 2012 redirect. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5Auto-archiving period: 30 days ![]() |
![]() | This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
RfC: Should we use references
Completed (and closed) RfC. Collapsed to reduce clutter on the page | ||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||||||||
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Should this article use references (such as <ref>{{cite web...}}</ref>) or inline external links within the body (such as [http://...]) — Jess· Δ♥ 05:03, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
Arbitrary break I
Arbitrary break II
Clarification and commentAny discussion of citation and "references" on WP tends to get confused because of a higly lamentable confusion of concepts. I would like to offer some clarification of concept, which might assist this discussion, and then comment on the nature of WP:verification. First: while the "ref" in the <ref> and </ref> tags is derived from "reference", what those tags create is not a reference itself, but an in-line link to a footnote — the familiar [1] thingys. These link to the footnotes (usually collected elsewhere by template such as {{reflist}}). Second: the importance of the foregoing is that any kind of material that can be placed "in-line" in the article text — more text, external links, "bibiographic references", citation templates, etc. — can also be placed between <ref> tags, and therefore in a footnote. So what we have is two levels of where stuff can be put: "in-line" in the text, or in a footnote which has an in-line link. Same stuff, just different levels. So when Jess initially proposed using "<ref>{{cite web...}}</ref>" he implied two things: use of the "cite web" template, and placement of it not directly in the text ("in-line"), but indirectly in a footnote with an in-line link. So there are really two questions here. But supporting or opposing "in-line" is nonsense: both alternatives are "in-line". The main issue here seems to be whether to continue with the use of external links (aka "naked urls"), or to switch to a citation template (specifically, "cite web"). I submit that the principal policy applicable here is WP:verification, which says: "Verifiability on Wikipedia is a reader's ability to check cited sources that directly support the information in an article." An external link is nothing more than a pointer to some place on the Internet. While it barely suffices to indicate where verfication might be found, it is a single datum, and quite fragile: any error in it, or any change of the target, breaks it, leading to link rot. This kind of problem is not new. The print world figured it out quite a while back: include as much information as you can about the source. E.g., the link provided for Carlos Fuentes goes to the Washington Post. No author or date provided, but if the link should break I would have a good lead on where to look. This also bears on the reliability of the source. E.g., I would be rather skeptical if the source was The Onion. Or some little-known blog. The point is: additional information is good. Such additional information need not be in a citation template. It could also be added as simple text. A minimal proposal could be that naked urls — lacking a label — be banned, that all external links are required to name the source, and possibly the author, date, etc. Use of a template would be more convenient and more consistent, but is not necessary. The core issue here, stripped of misconceptions and complications, is this: should this article move beyond naked urls? Most certainly it should; the question is how.
A real exampleNote: Originally a subsection of the RfC above. Moved for clarity 00:35, 18 April 2012 (UTC) To provide a comparison, I spent considerable time "creating" a footnotes version of Deaths in December 2011 (which is now a fairly stable article). The two versions may be compared below:
Observations and comments
Other examples?
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
RfC
Has there been any resolution to the RfC above? It began on April 12, a full month ago. Is there any conclusion – one way or the other – about the citation format to be followed in this article? Can an administrator "close out" the RfC and resolve this? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:27, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
Comments on RfCWe're still waiting on someone to close the RfC. I'd like that to be someone uninvolved, which is why I haven't done it myself. That being said, I'm personally seeing consensus for the proposal within that discussion. Few arguments were presented to ditch the MOS for this page, and a large majority of the editors commenting (particularly those uninvolved) were supportive of sticking to broader community consensus on the matter. Nearly 1/2 of the opposition to the proposal were bare votes. Some of the reasons presented for references included that the current page excludes offline references, inline links are prone to linkrot, consistency with all other articles which aids readers in using refs properly, and the various other reasons presented in WP:Citing Sources. I'd still like an outside editor to evaluate the arguments presented and conclude whether consensus was reached before migrating the page to a standard format myself, so as not to waste a large amount of my own time. The discussion was listed at requests for closure, so I imagine someone else will be by to make the close eventually. Thanks. — Jess· Δ♥ 14:57, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
|
Links on individual days on deaths list
Eg 14. Why have these been removed? They are a handy link for seeing what else has occurred on that day in history, and I don't see the harm of them being there. If no-one objects I will restore Martyn Smith (talk) 16:40, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hmains went on an edit roll one day and removed them. You might ask why on their talk page as they may not see this here. Frankly speaking, I never noticed the blue day links. — WylieCoyote (talk) 22:21, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks to whoever reinstated them :-) Martyn Smith (talk) 13:18, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- You're welcome! I concur with your original post. I think that the article is better served by including the linked dates, also. And I see no reason to eliminate them. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 01:56, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
"Terrorist"
{{edit request}}
WP:TERRORIST: "Value-laden labels—such as calling an organization a cult, an individual a racist, terrorist, or freedom fighter, or a sexual practice a perversion—may express contentious opinion and are best avoided"
- Abdelbaset al-Megrahi has "a Libyan citizen, alleged former intelligence officer, former head of security for Libyan Arab Airlines and former director of the Centre for Strategic Studies in Tripoli"
- Yet Wikipedia deaths has "Abdelbaset al-Megrahi, 60, Libyan terrorist, convicted of bombing Pan Am Flight 103, prostate cancer." This should at least be changed to "Abdelbaset al-Megrahi, 60, Libyan citizen, convicted of bombing Pan Am Flight 103, prostate cancer."
- You left out the rest of that Wikipedia policy statement, which continues: "... are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution". I imagine that the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 has, generally, been referred to as an act of terrorism. (I am sure that we can find sources to that effect, if we were to look.) He was convicted of that act of terrorism; hence, he is a "terrorist". Not a stretch. I don't think we need to be that politically correct so as not to "offend" terrorists – convicted ones, at that. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 01:50, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- A follow-up: Below are three reliable sources that describe the subject as a "terrorist" and the incident as "terrorism".
- Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 02:11, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- "The reliability of a source depends on context".
- All three sources have UK addresses. The UK is clearly heavily involved in this case, as is Libya, the US and so on. That the Daily Mail in particular, with its emotive headline "NHS patients are refused 'too expensive' prostate cancer drug good enough for Lockerbie terrorist al-Megrahi", should be regarded as "reliable" in this context is questionable.
- That the Abdelbaset al-Megrahi page does not, and has not, used the word "terrorist", that even the page of a figure as notorious as Osama bin Laden does not use the word "terrorist" and that Deaths in May 2011 does not use the word "terrorist" when referring to his death (preferring the much more specific "Saudi founder of Al-Qaeda"), strongly suggests caution should be exercised.
- "Contentious material about living persons (or recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion". The material is questionable, "terrorist" being one of those vague words thrown around much too often without any clarity concerning its meaning, therefore, as the guideline states, it "should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion." That it has been allowed to remain for more than 24 hours contravenes this basic principle found in Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. Such a lack of ability to identity what a "reliable source" is and what a "reliable source" is not should be a great cause of concern for any vigilant editor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.40.96.180 (talk) 18:15, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- Also worth noting is the source used to back up the statement on the deaths page doesn't even use the word "terrorist" to describe its subject. It opens with "Abdelbaset al-Megrahi, the only person convicted over the 1988 Lockerbie bombing above Scotland which killed 270 people, has died at his home in Libya." How this fits in with "unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution" is a puzzle. That even the BBC exercises caution, despite being based in the UK where the incident occurred, suggests it is imperative that Wikipedia also exercise caution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.40.96.180 (talk) 18:22, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- I am not sure what the problem is ... or what your point is. In a very quick 30-second time span, I found (and offered) three reliable sources that called him a terrorist and/or called the event (of which he was convicted) a terrorist act. I am quite sure that I would be able to come up with many, many more if I were to spend more than those 30 seconds of research time. I stopped at three, thinking that the results were obvious. Is there really any question that this was a terrorist act? Can other editors please weigh in on this topic? Particularly since the above editor identified that he/she has a conflict of interest in this matter. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 22:45, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- No indication of conflict of interest. This is a protected page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.40.111.208 (talk) 02:37, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Your original edit request indicated a conflict of interest. This box (below) is exactly what appeared in your original edit request. The very first line of the box states: "It is requested that an edit be made to this article that the user below does not want to make because of a conflict of interest."
- {{edit request}}
- Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:00, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hi. I've disabled the above COI Request edit template, only because it appears there is no actual request attached to it (as opposed to the edit request higher up in this thread). Since this page is Semi-protected, if you'd like to submit a request, it might be better to use {{edit semi-protected}} Thanks. -- Eclipsed (talk) (COI Declaration) 21:35, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- To 86.40.111.208 ... click this link (Template:Request edit) to see what your original edit request looked like. That will explain why I stated that you indicated a conflict of interest in editing this article. Perhaps you used an incorrect template? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 01:25, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Archive - the term "term" in question
Recently I have been noticing someone changing the length of Congressional and State Representatives terms. Instead of John Doe (1999-2012), they are being changed to "since 1999." I noticed in the notes that it was done because it "implied" they were out of office before their death. I have 3 questions on this matter- First, wont this mess up archiving? If say you look back in 2014 to the deaths in 2011 and see a "since 1999" wouldnt that be odd? Secondly, who cares what is implied? The length of their term was 1999-2012. If you need more specifics cant you just open their article? Isnt this about facts and not implications. Third, if its not suitable then maybe something on the order of 1999-Death or 1999-Day of Death. Would be interested in other thoughts on the matter. Not a huge deal either way, but I think the "since" is a weaselly way around pure facts. Sunnydoo (talk) 20:39, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hello. You seem to be hung up on the word "implication" or "implied". So, perhaps, I could have said it better by using the term "convention" instead. By convention, John Doe, Senator (1999–2012) means that Doe was a Senator from 1999 until 2012 and that his term ended prior to his death. By convention, John Doe, Senator (since 1999) means that Doe was a Senator from 1999 until his death. In other words, the first scenario indicates that some other reason (besides death) terminated his position as Senator. The second scenario indicates that he only stopped being the Senator because of his death. The conventions are used to distinguish whether or not he was still the Senator when he died. So, perhaps "convention" is better terminology than "implies" (although, it's really all the same thing). To answer your questions. (Question 1) How will it mess up archiving? You ask: "If, say, you look back in 2014 to the deaths in 2011 and see a 'since 1999' wouldn't that be odd?" No, it would not be odd. The reader knows that the person died on such-and-such a date. So, the term "since" means "since 1999 until whatever present date of death entry you are currently reading". The reader knows that the subject has died and knows the date of death for the subject. So, if the person died in 2011 (per your example), a person reading the 2011 archives in the year 2014 would not think that the person was still alive in 2014. If the subject were indeed alive, they would not be listed on the "deaths" page. (Question 2) You ask: "Who cares what is implied?" I addressed that above by changing terminology that you seem uncomfortable with (i.e., switching "convention" for "implication"). Also, to answer your Question 2, of course, a reader can always open an article and read it. (Question 3) Your question is simply proposing a new convention. There is already a convention in place. I think that the present convention is more succinct, compact, elegant, and readable. Your proposed (new) convention is wordy, awkward, and clunky; it doesn't add anything. It doesn't fix any problem ... as indeed there is no problem that needs fixing. Finally, you proffer that "the word 'since' is a weaselly way around pure facts". I disagree. In fact, using the current convention gives the reader more information, not less information, about the subject and the time frame. Your convention (i.e., 1999–2012) gives the reader less information. So, why would an encyclopedia strive to offer less – as opposed to more – information to its readers? And finally finally, I noticed that there were a lot of inconsistencies in the article. I only made one or two changes. But I made the changes so that the list was consistent. The above is my opinion and position on this issue. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 01:21, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Chronological order
There was a recent discussion about this, and there seems to be a consensus that past months should not list deaths in reverse chronological order. I completely agree, so I've made a start (Deaths in 2004 is now the right way round), but it's quite a leviathan task for one person. If anyone wants to help out, I'd appreciate it. It's tedious work, yes, but it only takes about six minutes per month, so if a few of you could spare the time to reverse a couple of months here and there, it would help me get this done a lot quicker. Thanks. DoctorKubla (talk) 09:43, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for your work! I am glad to see that this project is underway. Thanks again! Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:15, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Alright, that's done. If whoever archives the months from now on could take the time to put the dates in the right order, that'd be great. DoctorKubla (talk) 13:00, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
- Great job! Thanks! Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 14:47, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
Notable decedents
I am assuming that the general rule is: if a decedent has his own Wikipedia article, then he is notable enough for inclusion on this list (excepting the first 30 days, during which red links are allowed). Is that correct? So, my question is: are re-directs or piped links "allowed" in order to establish notability for inclusion on this list? Or no? For example, there is no article for Roy Wilson (singer), yet there is a redirect to Higgs and Wilson. Or, another example, there is no article for Marco Antonio Ávila García, yet there is a redirect to List of journalists killed in the Mexican Drug War. What are the policies and practices for these situations? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 00:51, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- I've had some of my piped links removed before so I can't answer that. For example, a popular Minnesota radio personality named Dark Star died Friday, and I thought to add him here but he would not be notable enough to others. — WylieCoyote (talk) 01:41, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- Is that a good example? What could you possibly use as the piped link for him? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:09, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- I delete redirects like Marco Antonio Ávila García from the list after 30 days if there is no primary article. In the case of Roy Wilson, I'm inclined to give a little leeway when the redirect is to a duo or husband/wife etc, as that's almost as strong as an article about the individual. However, I don't have a strong opinion about that and could be persuaded to delete as a non-article individual. Regards, WWGB (talk) 08:22, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- OK, thanks. But do we have any consistent policy? I understand your point about the "Garcia" example (i.e., you are inclined to say that he is not notable and therefore exclude him from the list). I also understand your point about the "Higgs and Wilson" example (i.e., you are inclined to say that he is notable and therefore include him on the list). I was thinking of an example more like Rudy Eugene. He had his own article ("Rudy Eugene"). His own article was later redirected to an article entitled "2012 Miami cannibalism incident". What is policy for an example like that? Thanks! Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:55, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- I'd like to suggest creating an archive for red-linked inclusions later removed. My76Strat (talk) 18:58, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
- I need clarification here. If there is still no Wikipedia article about a listed person 30 days after the death is added to the list, is the death always removed from the list? 67.71.2.203 (talk) 01:48, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, except the removal takes place one month after the death, not from the time that the death is added. WWGB (talk) 01:59, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
Apes?
I wish to voice opposition at listing an Ape's notable death in the context of this list. Unless that ape has allegiance via citizenship to some country it is contrary to the established criteria atop the page. Commingling animals on this list devalues the citizens (human beings) who populate it properly. My76Strat (talk) 03:38, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
- This article reports notable deaths, not just the death of notable people. It is a long-standing practice that deceased animals with their own article are reported here. WWGB (talk) 04:13, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
- This is in keeping with longstanding practice. See Deaths in October 2010#26 for the noting of the death of Paul the Octopus, for example. Some major newspapers publish obituaries of notable non-human animals alongside obituaries of notable people. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 04:25, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
- Also, in the past ... Travis, the Chimp was listed ... as was Senator, the Tree. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:57, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for clarifying the practice. As I contemplate, the things said, I can see the level of appropriateness. I don't know if the topic has come up in the past, or perhaps other good faith reversions, but I think this is a good example where an html comment within the document, or even an edit notice, should exist to preempt these potential feelings of ill will. Best - My76Strat (talk) 05:11, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
More examples would be many, many famous racehorses, the Taco Bell dog, collegiate mascots such as Uga and the Apes that played Cheetah in the Tarzan series. Sunnydoo (talk) 06:35, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
- Yes I concede agreement. My reaction was quick, in line with knee jerk; because I was lacking the knowledge of this practice, and hadn't meditated long on it. My curiosity now is only whether or not a consensus might agree that an html comment or maybe an edit notice would be at all prudent? My76Strat (talk) 06:56, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
- There used to be a notice at the top of the page stating that notable animals are also included in the list but that disappeared a while ago. A visible notice or edit notice would be useful as this comes up occasionally. Consensus seems to consistently favour inclusion of animals and the rare plant and I can only recall one edit-warrior insisting that no animals be permitted. He hasn't been around in several months. A notice would be helpful. I see no logical reason policy- or guideline-wise to exclude non-human notables and from a personal point-of-view I find it rather Victorian to consider only humans to be notable. If this list is meant to be information rather than serving as a tribute or memorial, then animals and plants that are independent subjects of articles should be included. freshacconci talktalk 15:23, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
- An alternative would be to have a separate list for animals, as is done on German Wikipedia. 89.194.130.107 (talk) 17:46, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
- What about the rare case of a notable plant's death? Flygon's friend- Smarter than the average bear! 01:32, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- I think this list is exclusive in terms of biological deaths. With Earth being the only known astronomical feature that is also a biosphere, it is the only candidate eligible for entry. And of course something of that magnitude would require significant reliable sourcing before anyone would consider allowing its inclusion. My76Strat (talk) 02:00, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- Er, I think you misread "plant" as "planet". There was some earlier discussion here about whether to list the "death" of The Senator (tree), but it seems that the tree may be producing new shoots anyway. WWGB (talk) 02:24, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- Ah yes, my bad. My76Strat (talk) 02:40, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- Er, I think you misread "plant" as "planet". There was some earlier discussion here about whether to list the "death" of The Senator (tree), but it seems that the tree may be producing new shoots anyway. WWGB (talk) 02:24, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- I think this list is exclusive in terms of biological deaths. With Earth being the only known astronomical feature that is also a biosphere, it is the only candidate eligible for entry. And of course something of that magnitude would require significant reliable sourcing before anyone would consider allowing its inclusion. My76Strat (talk) 02:00, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- What about the rare case of a notable plant's death? Flygon's friend- Smarter than the average bear! 01:32, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- An alternative would be to have a separate list for animals, as is done on German Wikipedia. 89.194.130.107 (talk) 17:46, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
- There used to be a notice at the top of the page stating that notable animals are also included in the list but that disappeared a while ago. A visible notice or edit notice would be useful as this comes up occasionally. Consensus seems to consistently favour inclusion of animals and the rare plant and I can only recall one edit-warrior insisting that no animals be permitted. He hasn't been around in several months. A notice would be helpful. I see no logical reason policy- or guideline-wise to exclude non-human notables and from a personal point-of-view I find it rather Victorian to consider only humans to be notable. If this list is meant to be information rather than serving as a tribute or memorial, then animals and plants that are independent subjects of articles should be included. freshacconci talktalk 15:23, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
On a lighter note, Freshacconci expressed views sufficiently well enough to move this to the next logical step. With an edit notice in place, I am considering this thread closed. I wish to express appreciation at the kind manner I was shown, by those who participated here. Thank you. My76Strat (talk) 03:53, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
Query about Ray Bradbury
This article gives the date of the death of Ray Bradbury as June 6 - indeed, I first heard it announced on BBC Radio Four today, which is June 6. However, the article on Ray Bradbury gives his death date as June 5. Obviously, one of the two dates needs to be changed. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 15:08, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- Every source I've seen gives the date of his death as June 5. Late in the day, apparently, so maybe it was June 6 for whoever added the entry. 204.60.84.2 (talk) 15:43, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
Yes, this website:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31749_162-57448127-10391698/ray-bradbury-dead-at-91/
gives the date as being "Tuesday night", which would have been June 5. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 15:49, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
More thoughts on citations
Well, that RfC didn't go anywhere, and having thought it over, I think that's probably for the best. Despite what I said higher up this page, there were some good arguments made in favour of the status quo - namely, that footnotes would double the size of a very high-traffic page, and more than double the workload of the editors who maintain it - and I've come to accept that the current month's list is always in flux, so it will always be a little sloppy. Past months, however, are much more stable, and there's no reason they shouldn't be tidied up a bit. I've made a start on this by putting the lists in chronological order, but I want to do something about the bare urls. Converting them all into footnotes is out of the question, so what about getting rid of them completely? The sources that verify the details of each death can generally be found in the person's article (past months shouldn't have any redlinked entries), and the information isn't likely to be challenged. So let's just scrap the bare urls and we'll have a much more presentable collection of articles. DoctorKubla (talk) 11:46, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- To clarify again, I'm talking about past months, i.e. 2011 and earlier. The current month, and probably the current year, will contain contentious material and should be crammed full of citations. Just making that crystal clear from the start. DoctorKubla (talk) 11:48, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- I disagree with removing references. Verifiability is a pillar of Wikipedia. Having a list article without citations will lead to problems. Why would you remove references that editors have taken the time to accumulate? WWGB (talk) 11:59, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- WP:V says that only material "challenged or likely to be challenged" absolutely has to have a reference. Anything else is down the judgement of editors. It also says that information must be verifiable, which it will be. Anyone wishing to verify the information will only have to click the link to the article. Deaths in 2003 has no references, nor does any list prior to 2003. No problems have arisen. Anyway, if verifiability is your concern, try using Checklinks to see just how prevalent the linkrot problem is. Half the links are completely useless anyway. DoctorKubla (talk) 12:53, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- I disagree with removing references. Verifiability is a pillar of Wikipedia. Having a list article without citations will lead to problems. Why would you remove references that editors have taken the time to accumulate? WWGB (talk) 11:59, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- Agreed entirely. Removing all references is what's out of the question. Anyway, being allowed to tidy up older lists would be an improvement. (Didn't I propose something like that recently?) DoctorKubla, may I ask why you think "converting them all into footnotes is out of the question"? Goodraise 12:28, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- Because it would take a lifetime. I don't want to do it, and neither will anyone else. DoctorKubla (talk) 12:53, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- The only reason it hasn't been done yet is that every time somebody tries, they are reverted and told there's a consensus against it. It happened to me and I was neither the first nor the last. Goodraise 13:07, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- Because it would take a lifetime. I don't want to do it, and neither will anyone else. DoctorKubla (talk) 12:53, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- Agreed entirely. Removing all references is what's out of the question. Anyway, being allowed to tidy up older lists would be an improvement. (Didn't I propose something like that recently?) DoctorKubla, may I ask why you think "converting them all into footnotes is out of the question"? Goodraise 12:28, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- I think I may have missed your point, DoctorKubla. Why are you proposing to remove all citations completely? I am uncomfortable with that idea. But, I'd like to know your reason and rationale. First, the citations provide information; second, the work (to include them) has already been done. So, what is the benefit of removing them? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 13:20, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- I know removing all citations sounds extreme, but as I've said, verifiabilty isn't compromised. In a list of links to other articles, there's no need to provide citations for every item on the list unless the information is challenged or likely to be challenged. I understand that this in itself isn't a good reason to remove citations that are already in place. The problem is, the citations are bare urls, which are subject to linkrot and look untidy and are strongly discouraged by the wikiwide community. That's why I want to get rid of them. If these lists included redlinks or contentious material, then of course I'd take the time to replace the bare urls with fleshed-out footnotes, but in fact, it isn't necessary. It would be a waste of time and effort. The simplest way to remove the bare urls is to simply remove them. Lists like this don't need references. Other lists like this don't have references. Every date article (June 7, for example) has a list of births and deaths, without references. Not everything has to be verified, only verifiable. DoctorKubla (talk) 15:52, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- URL only "references" are bad because they are less useful than full citations and more fragile. Having no references at all is even worse! Your arguments for removal are nonsense. WP:V concerns itself with what's necessary, not with what's desirable. For that you have to look here. Goodraise 19:00, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- The featured list criteria doesn't mention citations. Looking through some of the featured lists, some of them cite every entry, some of them don't. It seems to be decided on a case-by-case basis. What is clear is that featured lists should comply with the Manual of Style, which means no bare urls. DoctorKubla (talk) 07:58, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
- It should be done like you say. The logical first step is to simply begin doing it. I stand upon my position that more information is the way to go but maintain the links in direct form. You can <!-- comment out --> the information or pipe it through an # to keep the link down to a number. Something like this should be happening IMO. My76Strat (talk) 08:13, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
I wanted to display this example of some easy solutions that would be an immediate improvement.
- The current method is subject to link rot[4]
- Adding reference information is our key weapon[5]
- You don't even need the arrow if you prefer.[6]
- Right, the featured list criteria don't mention citations. The key phrase is that "a featured list exemplifies our very best work". An article that isn't verifiable won't be labeled a featured list. An article that doesn't have a citation stuck to every entry can still be verifiable if it contains references to the necessary sources somewhere else in the article. Not doing this and instead leaving the responsibility to linked articles which may or may not contain suitable sources isn't enough to exemplify our very best work. Such a list wouldn't even be reviewed. It would be closed as a premature nomination. I suppose technically you're correct in saying that removing all these links will rid us of the MOS violation, but that would be akin to cutting off your leg to get rid of the pain caused by stubbing your toe. Goodraise 11:56, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
- It should be done like you say. The logical first step is to simply begin doing it. I stand upon my position that more information is the way to go but maintain the links in direct form. You can <!-- comment out --> the information or pipe it through an # to keep the link down to a number. Something like this should be happening IMO. My76Strat (talk) 08:13, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
- The featured list criteria doesn't mention citations. Looking through some of the featured lists, some of them cite every entry, some of them don't. It seems to be decided on a case-by-case basis. What is clear is that featured lists should comply with the Manual of Style, which means no bare urls. DoctorKubla (talk) 07:58, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
- URL only "references" are bad because they are less useful than full citations and more fragile. Having no references at all is even worse! Your arguments for removal are nonsense. WP:V concerns itself with what's necessary, not with what's desirable. For that you have to look here. Goodraise 19:00, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- I know removing all citations sounds extreme, but as I've said, verifiabilty isn't compromised. In a list of links to other articles, there's no need to provide citations for every item on the list unless the information is challenged or likely to be challenged. I understand that this in itself isn't a good reason to remove citations that are already in place. The problem is, the citations are bare urls, which are subject to linkrot and look untidy and are strongly discouraged by the wikiwide community. That's why I want to get rid of them. If these lists included redlinks or contentious material, then of course I'd take the time to replace the bare urls with fleshed-out footnotes, but in fact, it isn't necessary. It would be a waste of time and effort. The simplest way to remove the bare urls is to simply remove them. Lists like this don't need references. Other lists like this don't have references. Every date article (June 7, for example) has a list of births and deaths, without references. Not everything has to be verified, only verifiable. DoctorKubla (talk) 15:52, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
First of all, I don't think the RfC "went nowhere", it just needs someone to close. I've requested it at ANI. It'll be closed in time. As for this suggestion in particular, I'm ok with removing refs for entries with articles. @Goodraise, briefly skimming the featured lists, I found this, which has refs relating to the lead, but no refs for the entries. None of the lead's refs enumerate the films listed, either. I don't see a problem with leaving the cites to the articles, and listing refs for only the entries without articles. Editors pointed out page size issues earlier. I really don't think page size is something we have to worry about, as I've explained in depth above, but if others are concerned about it, this would be a great way to cut down on the article's size without losing content. — Jess· Δ♥ 19:48, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
- Look again. There is a reference, a "general reference". That said, the list is probably due for an overhaul/FLRC. Goodraise 20:50, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
- You are correct, there is a source which enumerates the entries. I think my point still stands, however. I don't think delegating the references to the individual articles would make this list fall afoul of a FL. The same suggestion was even proposed by an admin in my request for closure at ANI. He, and I, and DK may be wrong... I'm tempted to propose another RfC (or seek another venue) to find out, despite our trouble with getting outside opinions here in the past, but I'll wait for now. However, I'm pretty sure as long as the articles are verifiable, and we're essentially transcluding a part of the article, we should be fine. I think there's a guideline saying as much somewhere, but I can't track it down. — Jess· Δ♥ 21:10, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
- I can certainly understand the reluctance to close the RfC either way. It's too complicated because it bit off too many things at once. We can draw two conclusions from it though.
- There is no strong consensus to stick with the status quo.
- There is no strong consensus to switch to using a combination of Cite.php footnotes and Citation Style 1 templates.
- Fortunately these aren't our only two alternatives. WP:CITE allows for a wide variety of methods. The best way forward may be to break the issue into smaller pieces and work them one at a time. Follow-up RfCs would be quicker as we can invite the editors who participated in the first. We'd just have to make sure to invite them all to avoid canvassing problems. A first such follow-up RfC could ask whether we should go from the status quo to using manual (i.e. not templated) parenthetical citations including, for the time being, only page title, publisher and language.
- Example:
[[Otto Ineichen]], 70, Swiss businessman and politician, heart failure. ([http://www.swissinfo.ch/ger/news/newsticker/international/Nationalrat_und_Unternehmer_Otto_Ineichen_stirbt_an_Herzversagen.html?cid=32847410 "Nationalrat und Unternehmer Otto Ineichen stirbt an Herzversagen"] (in German). Swissinfo.)
- Otto Ineichen, 70, Swiss businessman and politician, heart failure. ("Nationalrat und Unternehmer Otto Ineichen stirbt an Herzversagen" (in German). Swissinfo.)
- We could even skip the publisher for now. Then, step by step, RfC by RfC, we'd get to the point where consensus actually lies – however far or close to the status quo that may be. Goodraise 21:52, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
- Certainly there was no strong agreement to change the page, but I'm not sure I agree that, weighing the arguments presented, consensus was not formed. Consensus is not a vote, after all, and universal agreement isn't necessary. However, my opinion isn't largely relevant, since I won't be doing the close. We certainly could start other RfCs for opinions on other related topics. However, I've noticed two things:
- 1) Many regulars here want no change to the page at all. There were numerous comments like "the page isn't broken", or "it's worked fine this way for 9 years", concluding that we should leave everything as it is. Those editors are likely to feel the same way about any change.
- 2) It was very difficult to get anyone independent to comment. I imagine this is a combination of the silliness of the question (should we follow guideline?), the lack of impact on content itself, the combative nature of the discussion, and the size of the talk page. All of these are likely to be exacerbated by a flurry of similar RfCs.
- I'm not sure how to resolve either of those issues. I've tried to resolve each one already, but with no luck, and I'm out of ideas now. Perhaps you don't feel the same way, in which case it may be prudent for you to start another RfC once the last one is finally closed. However, I have strong misgivings that it will result in any more clarity. In any case, I'd like to first see how the existing RfC is closed before making any big moves. Too much of my work has been reverted already. — Jess· Δ♥ 01:23, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
- I did say "no strong consensus", didn't I? Anyway, I'm in no hurry. We'll see what happens. Goodraise 02:05, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
- Well, yea. I disagreed with the implication that it was weak. No worries; we'll wait and see what happens, and then move from there. All the best, — Jess· Δ♥ 03:07, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
- I did say "no strong consensus", didn't I? Anyway, I'm in no hurry. We'll see what happens. Goodraise 02:05, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
- I can certainly understand the reluctance to close the RfC either way. It's too complicated because it bit off too many things at once. We can draw two conclusions from it though.
- You are correct, there is a source which enumerates the entries. I think my point still stands, however. I don't think delegating the references to the individual articles would make this list fall afoul of a FL. The same suggestion was even proposed by an admin in my request for closure at ANI. He, and I, and DK may be wrong... I'm tempted to propose another RfC (or seek another venue) to find out, despite our trouble with getting outside opinions here in the past, but I'll wait for now. However, I'm pretty sure as long as the articles are verifiable, and we're essentially transcluding a part of the article, we should be fine. I think there's a guideline saying as much somewhere, but I can't track it down. — Jess· Δ♥ 21:10, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
Ok, so the RfC seems to have concluded such that we can migrate to using references in the article. I'll try to take care of that once I have the chance to completely redo my work from before. With that in mind, do the editors supporting this particular proposal (removing cites from entries with articles) still think it's necessary for the page? If so, we can discuss it further. If not, perhaps we could try using refs for now, and see if the page needs any additional cite changes after that. — Jess· Δ♥ 20:37, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- Well, the closure is pretty close to what I expected. Consensus to change something, but no consensus what to change to. The next step is obvious: Decide on which of the myriad of citation styles permissible by WP:CITE should be used. I suggest we start a new section for that, allowing everyone to present their favorite style, discuss a while, and then use whatever gains the greatest support. Goodraise 22:30, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see it as that ambiguous. A fair amount of the RfC opposes were opposes to footnotes, not a citation style, so I don't think those editors are going to have a strong (and unexpected) opinion about which style we use. I'd rather just follow normal process here: be bold and switch to a given cite style, and if someone has an issue with that style, they can change it up or discuss. We're talking about pretty basic stuff, here... every other article just does this without any issue. I would really prefer not to spend the next 2+ months hashing out RfC after RfC to pick out a cite template if that's not necessary. I'll hop in and do the cites once I get a chance, I just wanted to know if this (very much separate) proposal was still on the table, or if those advancing it felt that it should be superseded by the now-closed RfC. — Jess· Δ♥ 06:34, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- Whatever form they take, I still think citations ought to be removed once enough time has passed that the information is no longer contentious. I don't want to muddy the water, though, so I'm happy to drop this particular issue for now. DoctorKubla (talk) 07:05, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- Well, if we can avoid a long discussion, so much the better. I have a hard time believing that this is over though. Goodraise 11:29, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
Footballer, not football player
Since most who play a form of football are referred to as footballers, could we please have no more "football player" nonsense, from ignorant North American editors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.99.248.240 (talk) 18:31, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- Flattery will get you nowhere. — WylieCoyote 21:04, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- Main Wiki article either is acceptable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_player). "Footballer" is merely a colloquialism, while "football player" is more formal. Since "Football player" is more formal and has been the standard, it should remain so in my opinion. Sunnydoo (talk) 23:06, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- These are formal entries. My76Strat (talk) 08:16, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
Proposed change
The current page (at the bottom) reads this like:
== May 2012 == ''See [[Deaths in May 2012]]''. == April 2012 == ''See [[Deaths in April 2012]]''. == March 2012 == ''See [[Deaths in March 2012]]''. == February 2012 == ''See [[Deaths in February 2012]]''. == January 2012 == ''See [[Deaths in January 2012]]''.
This all seems rather redundant and unnecessary ... as well as a "waste" of vertical space (in an article that is already vertically lengthy). Each line says the same exact thing ... and it takes up 2 or 3 vertical lines (including blank white space) simply to indicate one past month. In other words, the heading and the sub-heading are exactly the same in the case of each past month. And, as the year moves forward – to 8, 9, 10, 11 months – the problem exacerbates. And all of the redundant sub-sections become even more lengthy, wasteful, unnecessary, and unwieldy. (Imagine the above sections with 10 or 11 months listed, as opposed to simply the 5 currently presented.)
I have proposed to change the format to the following (or to something similar):
== January 2012 – May 2012 == * [[Deaths in January 2012]] * [[Deaths in February 2012]] * [[Deaths in March 2012]] * [[Deaths in April 2012]] * [[Deaths in May 2012]]
This gets the same exact information across to the reader. And it does so in a more compact, elegant, aesthetic, and efficient manner. (And, again, nothing substantive is lost at all.) Another user – who apparently does not like this change and/or does not agree with it – has reverted it a few times. He or she claims that, quote, "on a high profile page such as this one, every single edit/change needs consensus".
The exact conversation is as follows. I made the above change. The other user reverted it, stating: "no consensus to change format for current year". I asked: "we need concensus for EVERY single edit?". He replied: "on a high profile page like this one, yes you do".
It seems ludicrous to me that every single edit/change needs consensus, simply because this is a high-profile page. I suspect that the user in question makes this (patently absurd) claim only when presented with an edit/change that he does not like or that he disagrees with. Otherwise, it seems, plenty of edits go unchallenged and do not "require" consensus on this page. And, in any event, he is making a mountain of a mole hill. This is hardly a "major" issue. But, he wants to make a federal case of it. And he wants to engage in a pissing contest. So, I am bringing it to the Talk Page. And, apparently, from now on ... every single edit/change to this page requires consensus (as I understand it). Or so says he. Is my understanding correct? Is his interpretation of policy correct? Are there any thoughts on the proposed change? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 11:05, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
- Leaving aside the personal attack and the misquotation, it seems that JAS wants the days to be listed backwards, the months to be listed forwards, and the years to be listed backwards.[7] In other words, a dog's breakfast. I'm not interested in federal pissing contests with Joseph, just a recognition that there are many editors who contribute to this page, and who deserve the courtesy and respect to be consulted on a significant format change. WWGB (talk) 11:56, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
- (1) Where exactly is the mis-quotation? Please be very specific. I did an exact "cut and paste" of the exact quotations of the conversation (while even leaving in there my own mis-spelling). And I did that precisely because I knew you would claim some red herring like a mis-quotation. (2) You miss the entire point of the edit. I don't particularly care if the order is up or down ... I care, rather, that 20 or 30 "wasted" vertical lines be compressed to 5 or 6 (with no loss of substantive content). I have no idea where you get those other red herrings ... that it "seems" (in your words) that I prefer days backwards, months forwards, etc. Where did you come up with those red herrings? You are making that up out of whole cloth. (3) You consider this to be a significant change? Wow! I knew you would make this a mountain out of a molehill. I hardly think, in the grand scheme of all things Wikipedia, that this is a "significant" change. It's a relatively minor, simple, non-controversial format change (and improvement, I'd posit). And, as I said, I knew that you would want to raise it to the level of a federal case by asserting how big / major / "significant" it is. Get real. That's simply your "code word" for saying that you personally don't like it and you personally disagree with it. And, therefore, you want to create bureaucratic impediments and obstacles, veiled under the guise of "proper policy" and/or "respect for other editors". Minor format changes are made every single day on Wikipedia, without "requiring" consensus. Get over yourself. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk)
- Until you can communicate with a fellow editor with courtesy, I decline to respond to you. WWGB (talk) 13:38, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
- Of course, that's a very easy way to avoid the substantive matter at heart ... and to divert/deflect the issue entirely. In other words, you have no defense. So, you throw a little temper tantrum / hissy fit... and stomp your feet like a little child until you get your own way. That's the gist of your conduct. Once again, get over yourself. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 13:43, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
- Let's keep things collaborative. If the only objection is that the order is backwards, then I've addressed that by reintroducing the proposal in reverse order. If there are any other considerations, I'm happy to discuss more. Thanks. — Jess· Δ♥ 15:20, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
Edit request on 12 June 2012
![]() | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
New entry Deceased on 10 June 2012 Italian wiki page: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dante_Micheli
Dante Micheli, 73, Italian football player [1] (Italian)
PS: Do not hesitate to contact me via e-mail to guide me and provide an HTML example (template) about how to formulate new entries in this listing.
Thanks,
Sam (aka Sixpeo)
Sixpeo (talk) 09:37, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- Completed Sunnydoo (talk) 11:33, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
WP:REFPUNC
Hello.
Doesn't WP:REFPUNC say that references should be right next to the preceding punctuation – period/full stop, comma, or the like – if there is any? As of now, there are a space before every one of them.
Regards
HandsomeFella (talk) 08:11, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- You're correct. I've fixed that. Thanks! — Jess· Δ♥ 08:18, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
Clean up of EL
I cleaned up the external links quite a bit. This involved removing the local, city-specific obituaries (and ugly multi-column format), and adding two links which actually concern the topic of this article. The two links there currently are what we should be striving for; they are specific to 2012, include only notable deaths, and have a global scope. The external links should now be in accord with WP:EL and WP:NOT. If anyone has any questions or concerns about this, I'd be happy to discuss further. Thanks. — Jess· Δ♥ 15:51, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- I prefer the original format. This page is for all notable deaths, not just those reported in a single American newspaper. --Racklever (talk) 18:52, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- Hmm... I assume you read what I wrote above? The format that you reverted to does not offer a global perspective, as it includes only deaths in the cities listed (which are few), and it does not include notable deaths either, as they are local obituaries for non-notable people. The LATimes and TvGuide links, on the other hand, provide a list of global deaths of notable individuals. It just so happens that the list was published in the LATimes in the first case, but it is not limited to LA (or even US) deaths; the second result is someone from London. If you still object to the LATimes piece for another reason, we can happily remove it. However, the current format falls afoul of WP:EL and WP:NOT. — Jess· Δ♥ 19:19, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- The list of published obituaries in reliable independent media is intended to provide sources for entries to this article. It satisfies WP:EL in that it provides links "that contain further research that is accurate and on-topic". Regards, WWGB (talk) 02:11, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- External links are not intended to house tools for editors to find more content. They're intended to provide additional information that could fit into the article. Google scholar is incredibly useful for finding sources for a great many articles, but it doesn't meet WP:EL. WP:LINKFARM says "There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia. On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate." Listing the local obituaries for every major city on Earth is not "adding one or more useful content-relevant links". And again, these lists do not contain notable deaths, or global deaths, or deaths only from 2012. The links I provided do. This is a case where we need a link to "one major fansite", not every one we can find. — Jess· Δ♥ 02:52, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- The list of published obituaries in reliable independent media is intended to provide sources for entries to this article. It satisfies WP:EL in that it provides links "that contain further research that is accurate and on-topic". Regards, WWGB (talk) 02:11, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- Hmm... I assume you read what I wrote above? The format that you reverted to does not offer a global perspective, as it includes only deaths in the cities listed (which are few), and it does not include notable deaths either, as they are local obituaries for non-notable people. The LATimes and TvGuide links, on the other hand, provide a list of global deaths of notable individuals. It just so happens that the list was published in the LATimes in the first case, but it is not limited to LA (or even US) deaths; the second result is someone from London. If you still object to the LATimes piece for another reason, we can happily remove it. However, the current format falls afoul of WP:EL and WP:NOT. — Jess· Δ♥ 19:19, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- "every major city on Earth"? "every one we can find"? A tad hyperbolic, methinks. WWGB (talk) 06:06, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- Not hyperbolic at all, actually. We're including a bunch of major cities now. Why aren't we including other major cities? When I asked you this before, you told me "if you can find other local obituaries, include them too". So, every one we can find, which I just about guarantee will include every major city on Earth. We can't just include every local obituary in this article. — Jess· Δ♥ 14:26, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
WP:LINKSTOAVOID advises against linking to "any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article". That would seem to rule out the lists of notable deaths that Jess wants to add. On the other hand, the same guideline says "a website on a specific subject should usually not be linked from an article about a general subject", which rules out local obituaries. One of these rules is going to have to be ignored. On balance, I'd rather we provide too much information than a couple of totally redundant links. DoctorKubla (talk) 13:50, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- The links I provided give information beyond this article, including pictures and information about the topic which we cannot include due to space. That being said, there's no reason we have to include external links at all. If you think both options are against policy, then we should remove them both. I'm fine with that. — Jess· Δ♥ 14:26, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
Edit Requests
Are edit requests removed from the talk page once the edit is completed? I've seen it happen. 67.71.2.203 (talk) 10:13, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, is the entry below this one a response to what I asked? 67.71.2.203 (talk) 11:17, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think so. There were a couple of formatting errors. But yes, it looks like completed requests are periodically removed. To reduce talk page clutter, I'm guessing. Why do you ask? DoctorKubla (talk) 12:59, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- Only because I've seen edit requests disappear and was wondering if that's part of normal practice. Thanks for explaining it. 67.71.2.203 (talk) 14:52, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
Edit request on 14 June 2012
![]() | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Addition of an entry in the list:
- Luis Aloy Vidal, 82, Spanish football player (FC Barcelona, Real Oviedo)[2] (Spanish)
PS: I have re-used an existing HTML 'view source' entry as a template to create this new entry. Let me know if this is not suitable/helpful. Thanks.
Sixpeo (talk) 10:50, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- ^ http://www.lanazione.it/firenze/sport/calcio/2012/06/11/727476-morto_dante_micheli_leoni_ibrox.shtml
- ^ "Luis Aloy ha fallecido a sus 82 años". Vavel.com. 2012-06-09. Retrieved 2012-06-13.