Talk:Alan Turing

Posthumous recognition

Turing Lecture 2008 at Bletchley Park

Bletchley Park is holding the annual Turing Lecture 2008 on Thursday, 10th July. Dr Andrew Hodges, tutor in Mathematics and Fellow of Wadham College, University of Oxford, will discuss some of the unresolved issues that have come to the forefront, as historians of science strive to understand the development of Turing’s thought.

Also, on June 22, 2012, on what would have been his 100th birthday he was honored on Google's famous "Google Doodle". — Preceding unsigned comment added by SRB9586 (talk • contribs) 04:59, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Suitability for the lead

I have reverted a good faith edit to the lead. An anonymous editor at 204.86.64.67 moved the following sentence from the first paragraph of the lead to the section on Childhood and youth. "He showed many of the characteristics that are indicative of Asperger syndrome.[5]" Given that Asperger did not describe his syndrome until 1944 and the paper at reference [5] was published in 2003, the lead seems to me to be a much more appropriate place. What do others think?

The same editor removed completely the following. "He was stockily built, had a high-pitched voice, and was talkative, witty, and somewhat donnish.[4]" This was taken from a recent newspaper article by the novelist Alan Garner. Again, what do others think?

--TedColes (talk) 17:30, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure "donnish" has any clearly defined meaning. From (very brief) linked article, University don, we have this description: "A don is a fellow or tutor of a college or university, especially traditional collegiate universities such as Oxford and Cambridge in England." So what exactly does the adjective "donnish" mean, given this? --AgonRex (talk) 23:05, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

"Donnish" is the word that was used by the novelist Alan Garner in his newspaper description of "My hero Alan Turing". I think it is quite well understood in Britain. I hesitate to define it, but perhaps it relates to the tendency of some university academic staff to be more absorbed by thoughts of their intellectual interests than about the practicalities of daily life. --TedColes (talk) 07:46, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

User:Trivialist removed the reference to the fact that Turing, in the view of of two psychiatrists published in a peer-revied journal, showed clear evidence of some of the main diagnostic features of Asberger's syndrome. I have restored this information as it seems to me to reveal an important aspect of his character. --TedColes (talk) 11:55, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

It probably belongs in the article, but I'm not sure it should be in the lead, as it's a "diagnosis" being done many years after his death. Trivialist (talk) 15:43, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

I think the article would be better without these 2 sentences.Southdevonian (talk) 21:37, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I am going to change the quote from the Guardian article and move it to a later section as it has nothing to do with youth - the writer met Turing in the 1950s. I suppose you could say it was noteworthy that a writer had chosen Turing as "my hero" although I don't think the brief article reveals much about him. As for the psychiatric article - has any here read it? What does it actually say?Southdevonian (talk) 19:55, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

I think this sentence about Aspergers needs some qualification before it goes back in, saying what these characteristics are for example (they don't seem immediately evident from his biography): "He showed many of the characteristics that are indicative of Asperger syndrome".Southdevonian (talk) 20:23, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

I have a copy of the Asperger's syndrome article. It is a scholarly article which says, in the last sentence of the introduction:

He was regarded as being socially aloof and eccentric by colleagues and friends. He was interested in mathematics, chemistry and logic from an early age, to the exclusion of other activities. This paper attempts to establish whether he fulfilled the criteria for Asperger's syndrome.

It examines the following criteria:

• Imposition of routines and interests on himself and others
• Non-verbal communication problems

• Limited use of gesture
• Clumsy/Gauche body language
• Limited facial expression
• Inappropriate expression
• Peculiar, stiff gaze

• Motor clumsiness: poor performance on neuro-developmental examination
• Speech and language problems
• An all absorbing narrow interest which includes

• Exclusion of other activities
• Repetitive adherence
• More rote than meaning

• Severe impairment in reciprocal social interaction

• Inability to interact with peers
• Lack of desire to interact with peers
• Lack of appreciation of social cues

The first sentence of the conclusions says:

This paper has set out to explore the evidence for Asperger's syndrome in Alan Turing. According to his biography and contemporary accounts of him, he certainly met Gilberg's criteria, ICD-10 criteria and DSM-IV criteria for Asperger's syndrome.

I find this quite clear and very useful in helping to understand some of Turing's unusual behaviour.--TedColes (talk) 08:00, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

I have read the article now and didn't find it very convincing (what is wrong with eating an apple at bedtime? Or not offering your guest more wine after dinner?). The authors did point out that in a different era some behaviours that are seen as odd today may actually have been advantageous. After all, Turing doesn't seem to have had major difficulties in life before his criminal conviction and ensuing psychiatric treatment. He seems to have had a successful career and been popular. But should there be a mention in the article that one or two people (Ioan Mackenzie James is another) have argued that Turing showed signs that might in another era be considered suggestive of Asperger's syndrome? Any more input from anyone?Southdevonian (talk) 18:30, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

The article does not suggest that Turing's behaviour with regard to wine or a daily apple was "wrong". After all, the phrase "An apple a day keeps the doctor away" was in common use in Britain at that time. Indeed, the two psychiatrist authors are non-judgemental, except in their conclusion, which should not be construed as a criticism. There is ample evidence that Turing behaved in unusual, even eccentric ways, and I think that readers deserve to be told that "He showed many of the characteristics that are indicative of Asperger syndrome" (or some such neutral phrase) as it helps to understand the man. I am not a psychiatrist, but I do find the article convincing. --TedColes (talk) 07:08, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

I have put in a mention of Ioan James' book as being more accessible than the article in the Irish Journal of Medicine.Southdevonian (talk) 11:15, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Personal characteristics

User:Lewallen has deleted some substantial, verifiable information about Turing's personal characteristics, saying "(I removed the description of Turing's physical attributes ("stockily built") style ("talkative and witty") and potential Aspergers from the first paragraph. Similar entries on other people do not include such information in the opening)". It seems to me that these details help readers to understand better an important and somewhat puzzling person, so I am going to restore this information pending a consensus here that it should be removed. --TedColes (talk) 14:33, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

I see no problem in keeping that information as informative and sourced, but I agree with Lewallen that the lead is not the best place for them. The lead section is supposed to be a summary of the article, thus placing that information there creates an impression that the article will expand on those topics; but for example the article never mentions the Asperger again. I think it could be placed with the biographical info at the Childhood and youth section. Diego (talk) 14:45, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

There is derogatory and very offensive comment at the top of the article about his homosexuality which seems to have escaped being edited out by wiki editors. The man deserves respect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.67.71.19 (talk) 03:39, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Anthony Cave Brown quote

At the beginning of the Conviction for indecency section there is a quote (one of the longest in the article) from a book by Anthony Cave Brown, which is about someone else but has a couple of pages about Turing. The quote refers to Turing as an "agressive homosexual" and says he was suspected of molesting schoolboys in Luton Library. In the book Cave Brown does not give any source for these statements, although the book does have references. The Guardian obituary for Cave Brown does not speak highly of his accuracy, and I can't see anything else in the article to support either of these statements. Turing was convicted of something that is no longer criminal (sex with consenting adult) but in this quote he is being suspected of something that is still very much criminal (if the boys were underage or unwilling) so I wondered if it really belongs here. Does anyone know of any other source that would support or contradict what Cave Brown says? Cave Brown goes on to say that this was why Turing was transferred to Hanslope Park - has anyone got another explanation for his transfer?Southdevonian (talk) 17:57, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

To my reading, Turing's change to working mainly at Hanslope was at his own volition, following his work at Bell Labs in 1942/43 which aroused his interest in secure speech scrambling. The idea that he was "rusticated" to Hanslope to make it less likely that he would visit Luton seems highly unlikely, given that the jopurney, at 28 miles, was only ten miles longer than that from Bletchley. --TedColes (talk) 07:26, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

So the explanation for the move to Hanslope seems unlikely. I have removed the quote as it appears to be (in the original book) malicious gossip without a source. Anyway it is not so well-written that it deserves to go in as a long quote.Southdevonian (talk) 11:23, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

It's unlikely he was a pedophile given that he was exclusively homosexual. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.155.125.116 (talk) 20:21, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Pardon and signatures

"The petition has over 34,000 signatures, but the request was declined by Lord McNally" This is a bit misleading: it has ~34 000 signatures NOW but when Lord McNally declined it, it had 21 000] as stated in previous revisions.--Kyng (talk) 13:57, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Epitaph

Does this require a little more explanation than just a link to the image of one of the postcards in Turing archive? Chosen when? and by whom? and to what end? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:39, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Wibblywobblybibblybobbly (talk) 08:43, 22 June 2012 (UTC) RE: Turing's supposed 'Epitaph'. Do any authorities state that this is indeed Turing's epitaph, or is it only in the Wikipedia entry because the person who put it there feels that it would be appropriate as one? Turing sent this poem in a letter; there is no indication in the Turing Digital Archive that it was used, or intended to be used, as an epitaph. The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography states that Turing was cremated, and as there does not appear to be a grave, there can be no epitaph in the strict sense of the word. The memorial plaque in Sackville Park does not feature the poem.

I have deleted the epitaph section (as he doesn't appear to actually have one) and put the lines in a text boxSouthdevonian (talk) 10:22, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

I think that the untitled text box is an improvement. I had no problem with their being no physical grave-stone on which this might have been inscribed. But one still asks - why here? What has it got to do with his death exactly? Even without any title it suggests this may have been some kind of an intentional self-penned epitaph. That particular postcard was post-marked 10 March 1954, about three months before he died. I think it's fascinating that Turing wrote poems - but why did he send these poetic fragments, on separate postcards, to Gandy? I thought there had been some earlier discussion on this, but I can't find it. Thanks. (Incidentally, his own life has directly inspired at least one poem - see Heathcote Williams' 2011 Forbidden Fruit [1]). Martinevans123 (talk) 11:21, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Centenary 23 June 2012

As I've just heard on the news that it's the centenary of Turing's birth tomorrow I've made a proposal here that he be included in "on this day" for the 23rd , although it may be too late. Richerman (talk) 14:15, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

I've also nominated it for "in the news" here where there will now be a discussion about whether to include it or not which you may wish to contribute to. Richerman (talk) 17:52, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Memoirs?

I have removed this sentence because no-one provided a source "In his memoirs Turing wrote that he was disappointed about the reception of this 1936 paper, which also introduced the notion of definable numbers, and that only two people had reacted – these being Heinrich Scholz and Richard Bevan Braithwaite." Did Turing even write his memoirs? I have a feeling not.Southdevonian (talk) 22:15, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Conviction for indecency

In the above section it says "After Murray helped an accomplice to break into his house, Turing reported the crime to the police" Whose house did the accomplice break into - Murray's or Turing's? Richerman (talk) 23:16, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

I think the grammar and context suggest that it was Turing's own house. Why else would Turing report it? It seems Murray was casing the joint? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:55, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Birthday

Wasn't his birthday on the 22nd June 1912? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.210.187.95 (talk) 00:03, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Code used for the Google Doodle letters at the Centenary

Hi, I just think it's informative to complement about the doodle with the binary code used for the letters on the doodle, known as Baudot code: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baudot_code. An International telegraphy alphabet. Currently I have no rights to do that.

 Done. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:30, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

David Leavitt's statement about Alan Turing taking "an especially keen pleasure" reenacting the scene from Snow White

The article says:

Hodges and David Leavitt have suggested that Turing was re-enacting a scene from the 1937 film Snow White, his favourite fairy tale, both noting that (in Leavitt's words) he took "an especially keen pleasure in the scene where the Wicked Queen immerses her apple in the poisonous brew."

David Leavitt is an american novelist born in 1961, who obviously never knew Turing personally. What are the evidences that Alan Turing took "an especially keen pleasure" reenacting the scene from Snow White? This affirmation looks ridiculous, gratuitous and a stereotype about homosexual men.
In the article about Leavitt it is said that "Leavitt, who is openly gay,[2] has frequently explored gay issues in his work.[1]". My guess is that he is projecting his own thoughts onto Alan Turing. How serious and reliable is Leavitt's biography of Turing?--89.226.117.72 (talk) 10:00, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

What was Hodge's connection, if any, with Turing? Or was he just agreeing with Leavitt's speculation? Is there any evidence that Turing ever actually watched that film (or even had the story read to him as a child)? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:08, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Good question. Andrew Hodges was born in 1949 (Turing died in 1954), and is himself described as a "pioneer of the gay liberation movement" in his article. Do these two authors have sources and direct testimonies from Turing's relatives, or did they accentuate (if not invent) stereotypical "gay" personality traits.--89.226.117.72 (talk) 10:20, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Questionable Suicide Ruling

Just came across an article arguing that today, a coroner would not have had sufficient evidence to rule Turing's death a suicide. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18561092 Can this be added to the article? 68.115.35.110 (talk) 11:01, 23 June 2012 (UTC)