User talk:Jimbo Wales

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Username penalty: IP users see articles 5x-50x faster

We need to remind users to logout to view mainstream articles 20x 30x faster. Avoid the username penalty which reformats major articles so much slower than for IP users. In running tests of template speed, I noticed that registered users (logged-in) now view articles which are formatted 5x to 50x times slower than what the IP-address users see (due to IPs seeing the common, quick, cached copies of formatted articles). Some of us were recently trying to optimize template speed, and were able to make a core template run about twice as fast, rather than having hundreds of "sub-optimized" one-line templates. In running those tests, then I noticed that hundreds of major articles can be displayed for IP users in about 1/8 second, whereas the username-specific reformatting of those articles runs several times slower, typically 20x 30x slower for mainstream articles, such as classic encyclopedia topics with formatted references. As you probably know, the complex citation templates use vast amounts of time to slow a large text article from a half-second formatting into several seconds during an edit-preview or view by a logged-in user. Of course that's fine, when people expect to hit "Show-preview" and wait several seconds for citations and navboxes to be formatted into a half-second text article. However, more users should know to log out and view the major articles 30x times faster, and edit them when needed, but after edit-preview log-in before saving the changes with an unwanted IP-address user ID. I would hate for most registered users to think that big Wikipedia articles are really displayed as excrutiatingly slow as when users are logged in. Logout and view the major articles 30x faster. Stubs display at the same quick speed either way, due to few {cite..} or navbox templates piled on those stub pages. Long term, I am wondering how to change major articles into simple large text pages that still format within one second, perhaps using dozens of quick templates. Reduce the current username penalty. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:49, 1 July, revised 00:14, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Assuming one is not a computer, then I don't see why this matters. I very rarely have to wait more than a second or two for an article to appear. I don't know what my reading rate is but I would say 30 words a second is a decent upper bound. So at the very worst this costs me the time to read a couple of sentences.

This will matter for bots of course. But then they shouldn't be running off cached pages most of the time... Egg Centric 21:40, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Only major articles slow, not stubs or small articles: Thanks for noting the difference. The problem is typically a speed factor for only major articles, such as the top 500 articles on any mainstream topic, where the {cite} templates have been used extensively (or navboxes are large). I think a typical infobox formats within 1 second, so a large half-second text formats within 1.5 seconds with an infobox. However, the various {cite} templates use the gargantuan Template:Citation/core with over 620 parameters in the markup, so using {cite...} often adds several seconds to the formatting time, at the rate of nearly 1 second per 13 {cite} transclusions. The result is that a major article formats in over 11-12 seconds, rather than 2-3 seconds, for registered users, or for anyone during edit-preview. Because the Internet is typically very slow (with exceptions such as Google Search), then many registered users do not realize that IP users see major articles several seconds faster than they do. It is an issue that I have been trying to improve for years (working on {cite-fast} templates which run 85 per second, 6x times faster), but Jimbo has advised to avoid "all templates" which would also solve the problem, but many templates (such as infoboxes) are valuable, so we just need to optimize (and reduce) the larger templates. -Wikid77 (talk) 11:46, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
• Making major articles 3x faster for editing: Okay, the reality, obviously, is that cached copies of articles will always be, typically, over 10x faster than any optimization of reformatting. A major article that IP users view in "0.249 seconds" is likely to reformat in over 11 seconds (44x slower), and my efforts at optimization are showing reformat times no faster than 5 seconds (20x slower than the cached copy), even though twice as fast as major articles display now. I think we could get major articles to reformat 3x times faster, to allow faster edit-preview of the whole page, by having special versions of templates which are specifically fast for the basic parameters (so for rare customized parameters, use the larger massive templates). Extensive functionality seems to be the enemy of speed, because checking for use of extra features, or giving users helpful advice during use, causes extra overhead and slows the whole template, or leads to n-variety sets of similar templates which are difficult to update in similar, synchronized functionality. A possible strategy would be to have 3 types of related templates:

• Template:Hogger - the typical massive template with many features
• Template:Hog_fast - a smaller version with only the basic features
• Template:Hog_helper - a training-mode version which warns of errors.

From the tests I have run, I am seeing that any template with many parameters will be something of a resource hog. This confirms Jimbo's advice to avoid large templates. Hence, we have the infobox templates, but they tend to slow reformatting by 1 second each, so limit their use (having 20 infoboxes in an article could slow the article by nearly 20 seconds). We can live with 1 or 2 large infoboxes per article, no problem. However, {citation} templates for 200 footnotes per article are going to eat major time, currently 1 second for every 13 footnotes, or almost 15 seconds for 200 footnotes. Instead, many people are hard-coding several footnotes, in areas, so not all "200 footnotes" use {cite} templates. The tests for the experimental {cite_fast} run faster as 70x per second, or almost 6x faster, but 200 footnote templates would still consume 3 seconds of reformat time, so again, hard-coding many footnotes (where the detailed parameters are not needed) can keep 200 footnotes below 3 seconds of formatting with a {cite_fast} template. -Wikid77 00:14, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I've run a couple tests myself using citation templates. I did 3 tests: one with just the urls, one with full citation templates, and one with short Harv citation templates in the "Notes" section that called the longer templates in the "References" section. The no-template was obviously the fastest. The one with 200 full citation templates was the slowest, and the one using Harvard templates was in between. It's a good option for articles that have a lot of citations to the same source. ~Adjwilley (talk) 02:16, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

The discussion at Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Citation templates (technical) is useful background reading. A fuller debate exists at Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Citation discussion. It's demoralising to see how the actual solution (extend cite.php and move away from templates) is opposed at Demo of specific proposal for all the wrong reasons. Any technical solution that requires changing something is likely to fail because of the culture of inherent Ludditeism that exists in Wikipedia. --RexxS (talk) 07:33, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

• The vcite solution is great for now: Most users would be stunned to realize the articles will reformat or edit-preview 3x (thrice) as fast now, using Template:Vcite_book (etc.). Awesome! As for internal changes to Cite.php, I try to also consider the "worst possible scenario" of how the proposed internal PHP functions might include some hideous bugs, stuck for years, because template coders could not help to fix them. Instead, by using fast-cite templates, we can gain 80% more speed now, while also fixing any format bugs, within days, rather than months or years. Reducing a 23-second edit-preview to only a 8-second wait is a wikimiracle at this point. Beyond the cite templates, we can also optimize other issues, to gain even more speed than from citations alone. -Wikid77 15:48, revised 23:59, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

• Possibility of caching subst'd template results: Another tactic, which could be used in rare circumstances, would be to create "segmented articles" composed with cached segments appended to the current markup text. We could take very slow portions of articles and run the templates as wp:subst'ed, then save those segments and transclude them into the final article. For example, with an article named "Mars colony":

• Mars_colony/dynamic_map - a segment with a complex (slow) map template
• Mars_colony/dynamic_map_cache - a segment with the subst'ed template(s)
• Mars_colony - then transcludes {{Mars_colony/dynamic_map_cache}}

The rule would be that changes should be made to the template-based segments (not the cache versions), which are subst'ed into the cache-based segments, and then the cache files are appended into the article, allowing massive slow templates to be used in a huge article which reformats (around the cached segments) within seconds. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:29, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

You know that Tim is working on Lua ("scheduled for 2013")? The aim is to replace frequently-used templates with a new and much faster system. Johnuniq (talk) 00:35, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

• Conversion to fast Lua language: Thanks for noting that option for 2013. It would be great to have the ultra-efficient Lua scripting language, with loops and recursion, even if more complicated for many users. Beware that a massive change in technology is a typical tech solution for "deus ex machina" and typically needs almost a year longer than hoped (=2014?) to "quickly save the day". There is also a danger of interface overhead, such as a "faster" system needing a "10-second" connection link (hopefully not with Lua). Often, a rewrite can duplicate unneeded complexity, and there might be a feeling to handle all "620" parameters now in Template:Citation/core. Meanwhile, I am still focusing on actions to take within a few weeks, which already show 3x speed improvements. Long term, the use of Lua might allow extremely smart, and yet fast templates, so that is another benefit beyond today's cumbersome templates. -Wikid77 06:27, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Removal of adminship

Hi. Being a believer in the idea of Institutional memory, I wanted to ask you about "how things used to be". My recollection is that: once upon a time, the community would decide to hold a discussion concerning an admin, and then at some point you would come in and assess/discern the community discussion, and subsequently take action (or not) based upon that.

First, am I remembering incorrectly? Second, anything you could expand upon that?

As a semi-related question, of late you have mentioned deferring/sharing various responsibilities to/with arbcom.

I'm presuming that the process to desysop is one of those.

With that in mind, what would you think of that past community discussion process being brought back, but having the arbitrators assess/discern, and then asking a bureaucrat to "push the button" for them, as it were?

We're discussing similar things at WT:RFA, but I thought I'd like to ask what your thoughts were on this.

(As I know that your talk page also doubles as a community forum, I'll place two sub-sections, to allow you and the community to both respond, should anyone so desire : ) - jc37 23:44, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

JW thoughts

(Jimbo answered below. -Wikid77 11:59, 2 July 2012 (UTC))

Well, he explained an interesting proposal, but he didn't answer my initial questions : )

(Though of course he, like any editor, if free to answer (or not) however he may choose : ) - jc37 15:37, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Anyone else? : )

Your comments indicate that you are not familiar with WP:Desysopping, which really ought to be the starting point for any discussion. Looie496 (talk) 00:17, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the link! I don't think I've looked at that page since the around the time of the zscout situation. Though I recall quite a few of those listed on the page. A definite blast from the past. - jc37 00:33, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I think there is a fundamental problem with only a black or white option in this. I know Jimbo has said in the past that he believes in eternal adminship unless there is a clear problem, in general society, we haven't adopted that same philosophy. Generally, people have terms that expire, or other limiting measures. In Wikipedia, the limiting measure is a general adherence to consensus. On a more limited level, this measure helps to prevent pervasive problems in some ways, but ignores other problems because they don't individually rise to the level of 'pervasive'. I will say that generally I find the admins on Wikipedia to be exemplary, and their conduct is usually very honorable. At times, there seems to be a Contempt of cop sort of reflex, which is incompatible with good adminship, but again, generally the conduct seems professional and commendable. -- Avanu (talk) 00:27, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I don'¨t know of any society in which the job of a cop or janitor (the most reasonable comparisons with admins) are time limited. Admins are not a governing body, they are just enforcers.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:36, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

We like to say 'cop' or 'janitor' but another analogy that might be of some interest, particularly if you are British and don't get wound up too tight: the House of Lords. A grand title, but very little power. But in theory (and sometimes even in practice), some independence and wisdom.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:15, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I guess we could introduce hereditary figurehead admins (I think that sounds more like ArbCom though), but wouldn't that be a little bit contrary to the kind of system we want to achieve?·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:01, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

This isn't a reflection on any particular admin. It's about whether having such a process in place would help alleviate concerns of commenters at RfA, and thus hopefully improve the climate. - jc37 00:36, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I would like to see us make 50 new admins a month under a new "probationary" system to be tried for 6 months. Under this system, anyone with 5 admin nominators would be made a sysop immediately "under probation" (1) allowing removal of the bit in case of serious trouble and (2) requiring a normal RfA vote at the end of 3 months, upon the conclusion of which adminship would either be held in the normal way or revoked. I think such a system would reduce the a priori judgment required for making new admins, allowing the RfA process to be less stressful, and would also bring in a wave of new admins with fresh insights.

Such a system, if tried for 6 months, would give enough time for the first 3 months worth of candidates to have made it all the way through the process so that we can evaluate and vote on the program as a whole.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:11, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

What happens when the 6th month expires? 76Strat ^String da _Broke da (talk) 10:31, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I would recommend that at the end of 6 months, a vote is taken to determine whether we want to continue it. During that vote, no new admins would be made, but admins created under the program would continue to run the course normally. If the vote is 'no' on continuing, then the admins still in 'probation' would continue and would need an RfA to confirm, but no one new would enter the program. If the vote is 'yes' on continuing, then we just keep going.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:00, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

That's sort of how we've been doing it on en.wv, Jimmy. From hard lessons there, I'd recommend one minor change: put these "probationary" admins in a different usergroup that any admin can remove but not add ('crats would add it, but any admin could remove it if there's an issue). Otherwise the usergroup would be the same (except maybe the ability to remove the buttons from other probationary admins). --SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 17:58, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I like the idea. Please indulge one more question. How would the admin hopeful request consideration for the 5 nominations? Or how would it come about? 76Strat ^String da _Broke da (talk) 11:24, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Those details could be in the written policy, for a primary nominator to seek 4 others. -Wikid77 11:59, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I am planning out an idea to reform the RfA process through a separate RfC proposing a serious of alternate ideas. I am in support of Jimbo's proposal and I think I will include it as a proposal.—cyberpower ^Chat_Offline 11:44, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

That's true Wikid77. I imagine it could be a routine request for permissions as well, where it remained in the queue for a specific time until it either got 5 endorsements or failed. I am also wondering if it should be a net 5 endorsements to give opposition a voice? 76Strat ^String da _Broke da (talk) 12:07, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I think my basic idea (which only in part originated with me, with parts of it drawn from many past proposals) should be tweaked. But one tweak that I would resist is something that turns this into another voting process. If we're going to do that, we might as well change RfA to just say that you have to get 5 more yes votes than no votes. No, what I like about this idea is that we know there are good people who we could get involved in being admins if the process were not so gruesome. If someone gets the bit rather easily for a 3 month trial, it gets pretty hard to vote 'no' if they've done a perfectly fine job.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:26, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Overall, this is a good idea. The current RFA system is often unnecessarily rude and puts off many capable editors.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 12:57, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

It's not a bad plan; although I'd make it "5 regular editors" (being defined as having X experience) to avoid the risk of insular/clique situations. But the WMF legal would almost certainly block such a move because of the deleterevision access concerns. --Errant ^(chat!) 15:00, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Nod on the latter point. Undelete and see deleted material seem to be the big concerns. - jc37 15:39, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

While I think it wouldn't be a good idea to make it just "5 regular editors" (explanation in a moment), I don't think WMF legal would object. It's up to us, i.e. a community matter, as to who gets adminship. They've never expressed a view on it, and while I require identification to the WMF for appointment to ArbCom, that's my decision, not from them. We don't require identification for adminship. Whether we should or not is an interesting question, but not one that the WMF has ever expressed any opinion on as far as I know.

My opposition to "5 regular editors" is that while I do think we existing admins are prone to insular/clique situations sometimes, that's unlikely to last for long if we really open up adminship by routing around the problem of RfA being too "a priori". Give the bit easily, take it away easily, during a probationary period.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:12, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

It's on the watchlist, so I hope that no one accuses me of canvassing for posting this...lol

Please see both: this, and this, for what I was referring to. There's a fair amount of surrounding drama, so you may want to wear your peril-resistant sunglasses : ) - jc37 22:22, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

@Jimbo; the point is they have said in the (recent) past that, for legal reasons, viewdeleted should be restricted to community vetted individuals - both on the basis that they are subject to scrutiny during RfA and because it limits the numbers. Ideas to seperate out the tool package have floundered for this very reason; the only reason Jc37 has gotten WMF sign off on his scheme is because it explicitly uses RfA style !voting to assign the proposed new access level. Handing it out on a trial basis has been, IIRC, rejected before as an option (by legal). It's silly/ridiculous, and I can't see any good reason for it, but that's how it sits. --Errant ^(chat!) 08:28, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

@Avanu. Re the idea that admins are like those roles that in general society have fixed terms of tenure. My understanding is that fixed terms of tenure are normal for elected politicians, company directors and trustees - roles similar to Arbcom or chapter board members where you have a limited number of people exercising authority on behalf of others. But adminship is fundamentally different to such roles as there is no shortage of mops and no reason to restrict the number of admins. In that sense adminship is more a qualification like a driving license, and where I live driving licenses are valid until you are seventy and then subject to periodic medicals. I'm less familiar with Pilot's licenses but I think there is a closer analogy as you can lose them through inactivity. You can lose your license for drink driving and various other offences, just as Arbcom sometimes has to desysop people, but if you don't misuse it then you are licensed indefinitely. ϢereSpielChequers 15:55, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I do like the idea Jimbo. So how do we get started? When do we start? 76Strat ^String da _Broke da (talk) 21:42, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Just curious: if this goes through, would this become an acceptable process for admins who have lost their tools under "controversial circumstances" and have been advised that they must re-apply by way of the "normal RFA", to get their tools back? Bielle (talk) 22:23, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I should think not. This process should be available to allow editors to "show their mettle", as it were, and demonstrate their ability rather than the current system which tries to guess at it; having lost the bit reverses that presumption and it seems clear to me that the trial process could not apply. — Coren ^(talk) 02:30, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I think this process would definitely need some fairly high experience requirements for those making the nominations, in order to avoid having five new accounts turn up and nominate another new account for admin. I think it might also be wise to say that nominating editors can have only one admin in the pool at a time - so if you're one of five sponsoring an admin, you can't sponsor another until some period of time (three or six months, perhaps) has passed. Also, maybe you should make those RfA votes require a majority or at least a fairly large minority to desysop, but the candidate has to go back every three months for another vote until he gets a large majority.

All that said, there's still sort of a sticky issue - this makes it very easy for a faction of editors to get access to deleted revisions, by getting together to sponsor a candidate who, however temporarily, has free rein to survey whatever they want him to look up. I'm not sure whether that's a bad thing, and I'm not sure it isn't effectively happening now, but it's interesting. Wnt (talk) 00:12, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Internet Defense League

meta:Requests_for_comment/Internet_Defense_League – Jimbo, what are your thoughts about this?

Also, meta:Requests_for_comment/Internet_Defense_League#Response_.2F_Proposal_from_Fight_for_the_Future:

We'd like to know if there's a way to break off with a group of wikipedia community members who are interested in the league to figure out the details of how Wikipedia and its community members participate in the league and come back with a complete proposal. This way, we can work out the questions of governance and participation in ways that make sense for Wikipedia.

Is there any way for Wikimedia to send a group of individuals with Wikimedia's principles, values, and interests in mind to meet with the League and to come up with a "complete proposal" as Holmes Wilson suggested? --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 15:12, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Possibly. I've been watching http://www.reddit.com/r/internetdefense/controversial/ that used to list http://boycottplus.org/ which seems rather drastic (but potentially very powerful and effective) but which is now listing http://stopthetrap.net that does seem like a very important issue which places the continued existence of the Foundation, Wikipedia and wikis in general at considerable risk. See also Wikipedia:SOPA initiative/Post-blackout activities and initiatives#Internet Defense League. 70.91.171.54 (talk) 02:14, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

See also http://www.ustr.gov/about-us/press-office/blog/2012/july/ustr-introduces-new-copyright-exceptions-limitations-provision 75.166.192.187 (talk) 22:23, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Commons and licensing of WMF-employee produced media

There's a discussion going on over at Commons, Saibo maliciously tagging work with clear licenses which Jimbo and other WMF types may be interested in. On one side the WMF people say that all work produced by them is automatically CC-BY-SA 3.0, the other side (initiated by Saibo, who has a history of WMF acrimony) says that there is a de facto rule that one is not allowed to upload the work of another, WMF and licensing or not. Tarc (talk) 13:49, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

One of the things that I think we always need to remember is that one of the most important ways to have an open, happy, tolerant, flexible, dynamic, and intelligent community is to set clear boundaries beyond which people are simply disinvited to participate further. It's one thing to have a legitimate disagreement on some fundamental issue, there's a lot of health to be found in that. It's not ok but understandable and forgivable that tempers will sometimes flare and apologies should be the norm. But at some point, we reach the end of the line, and we have to say: look, because we want to have an open, happy, tolerant, flexible, dynamic and intelligent community, you have to stop this behavior or leave. You are causing more trouble than you are worth.

Whether this is a case like that or not, I don't know because I'm not directly involved much at Commons. But the behavior you identify is patently absurd.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:31, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Is this more soreness over the banning of a convicted child porn distributor, or simply that WMF is dumping useless crap on Commons? John lilburne (talk) 15:46, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I find the "useless crap" argument to be a bit hypocritical. They're concerned with out-of-scope clutter when it comes to the WMF and screenshots on one hand, while choosing to retain the umpteenth iteration of breasts on the rationale that fat naked women in sunshine are underrepresented on the other? (note for the NSFW-minded: the link takes you to a deletion discussion, not the image itself). Tarc (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:26, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Only one person called the files "useless crap"; it's not representative. It should be obvious that an image that is in use on the Foundation project (like any other), or which is plausibly useful for educating people about the WMF, should not be deleted from Commons without a compelling copyright issue, and the debate is about the way copyright permissions are documented. One user Stefan4 gave a pretty good argument in that conversation: OK, so who is going to create an explanatory template for reusers ("This image was uploaded by a WMF employee, so using it without {{licensereview}} is safe." / "This image was not uploaded by a WMF employee, so if this is not uploaded by the copyright holder and neither has {{PermissionOTRS}} nor {{licensereview}}, then it is not safe to use the image.") so that reusers know whether it is safe to use the image? True, to me this still sounds like counting copyright angels dancing on the head of a pin, but that's a very common pastime on Commons, especially for its opponents. Wnt (talk) 17:39, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Twitter account articles

Main pages: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard § "… on Twitter", and Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) § Appropriateness of "X on Twitter" (or similar) articles

There is a lengthy discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ashton Kutcher on Twitter and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Justin Bieber on Twitter as to whether there should be separate articles for twitter accounts and what the criteria for such articles are. There also exists Barack Obama on Twitter and Lady Gaga on Twitter which are currently not at AFD. Would you care to comment?Smallman12q (talk) 17:44, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

• Only a matter of time for the rest. I floated the idea of nominating the Obama one about a month ago, and given the current climate that seems to favor ridding the project of this pop culture fluffery, I think it may be time. Tarc (talk) 18:06, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
• Actually, the lengthy discussion that is intended to sort out criteria is at the Village Pump. Uncle G (talk) 20:02, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I have no strong opinion. I tend to prefer avoiding the creation of endless "intersection" articles (meaning, in this case, the intersection of twitter and particular famous people) but there can of course be valid exceptions.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:02, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Commons should host as much porn as possible?

At least one user thinks so. [[1]] Ken Arromdee (talk) 20:13, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that was his point, actually... The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:58, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

No, I think that's a pretty accurate summary. He argues that the reason specific pornographic files rank so highly at commons is that there is a shortage of them. If we had a lot more, they would drop in the rankings (individually) by competing with each other. I am unpersuaded by the argument because I don't think worrying about the ranking lists is a valid way to think about the situation there. It's the least of our worries. I am much more concerned about privacy issues, licensing issues, trolling, lack of ability for end users to manage their own experience as effectively as they could with better software - all are known issues. The rankings is just a side show.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:59, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I see what I misread. Well, Claritas is banned from en.wiki, and I doubt this will endear him to many here; probably not a good move if you're trying to get unbanned. The wider implications have been discussed here before, so I'll leave it at that. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 10:53, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

If Wikipedia has already fallen to the level of banning people for making valid logical arguments off-site... Actually, I mostly disagree with him, but that's not the point! Wnt (talk) 14:29, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

We already have enough of those, thank you very much. benzband (talk) 11:09, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Do you think...

that God would have invented cats if he had known how hard they are to herd? I see he stopped short of inventing Wikipedia. :) -- Avanu (talk) 22:55, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

• Wait, God invented cats as training for WP: For thousands of years, God has allowed people to work with cats so, one day, people would be better prepared to work with Wikipedians. Cats keep very odd hours, lie secretly in the shadows, and pounce on others when least expected. They don't converse and user_talk very much, but know a lot of tricks to make noise when they want attention. Plus, cats know what they want, and they want it now. Sound familiar? -Wikid77 08:10, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Meow!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:14, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

• He would have. Why? Because he likes causing trouble. He even illuminated old Jimbo here into creating Wikipedia… so it would become yet another outlet for his mischief. — benzband (talk) 10:10, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

I didn't know that Barry Gibb and Jimbo knew each other (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:12, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not finished

I'm astonished to find that we have no article about Count Robert le La Rochefoucauld in English Wikipedia. Naturally, the French Wikipedia does have an article. A guaranteed interesting story if anyone wants to take a shot at it!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:10, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Okay, they started "Robert de La Rochefoucauld" (for French: fr:Robert de La Rochefoucauld). -Wikid77 05:07, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I think the community would rather write articles on celebrities' activities on FaceTube, TwitBook, etc. --MuZemike 14:31, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

If you want to bitch about that go comment at the AFDs, not here. Albacore (talk) 15:05, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm not bitching, I'm only saying what is true. --MuZemike 15:33, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

See also fr:Bagad Kemper for a French featured article which doesn't have a page here. Albacore (talk) 16:58, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

I have a ton of fun working on Ainu people's articles precisely because I don't have to worry about bullshit from fan sites; I hate having to say this, but other than me, how many people seriously care about Yukie Chiri of Imekanu? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:12, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

This many. benzband (talk) 18:31, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

I'd bet a substantial chunk of those are me, from refreshing the page to make sure the formatting of the images I was adding in looked right... truthfully, that's at least 1/4 of them right there (formatting and me don't get along very well). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:42, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

"It is not up to us to finish the task" nor ought we avoid it. (ancient adage) Collect (talk) 18:37, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

I just pushed Joseph Vaissète in the direction of Aymatth2, who rose to the challenge. That, too, had an article on the French Wikipedia, that I found as a side-effect of Talk:Côte d'Ivoire#This is an encyclopaedia article, supposedly.. There are editors who rise to such challenges. Uncle G (talk) 19:51, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

If anyone sees an interesting article on fr.wikipedia that is missing on en-WP I'd be happy to translate it for use here. I've only done a handful so far, but have found it to be quite enjoyable. Jezebel'sPonyo^{bons mots} 00:33, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Brilliant Idea Barnstar
	You are the one who gave us the simply fabulous Encyclopedia, we can rely upon... Hail Wales... Prathamesh Patki (talk) 14:27, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

my experience with Wikipedia

I was a happy and (based on feedback from other editors) productive Wikipedia user for a few years, until a disruptive editor whom I shall call DE (for "disruptive editor," get it?) decided to target me with some Wikipedia bullying. Not only did he break all rules of civility -- including but not limited to foul language and name calling -- but he also used his user page to rally other people to cyberbully me as well. It got to the point where I couldn't log on without seeing a new nasty message from DE or another editor claiming to be DE's friend. Repeated attempts to get Wikipedia to resolve this issue led nowhere. Often, I was chastised for failing to follow proper dispute resolution procedures (which apparently have to be followed in a very specific order), admins often ignoring the obvious point that dispute resolution only works if both people are interested in resolution. Eventually, an admin took pity on me and pointed out to DE that he was being uncivil and unreasonable. DE responded that Wikipedia rules, especially rules regarding civility, don't apply to him. You would think that this would clearly indicate to any third party that DE was acting in bad faith, especially in the context of his user page, which was filled with complaints from other editors, often involving civility, and DE invariably responding by calling the person an idiot (or something similar) and saying that the rules don't apply to him.

Instead, the admin responded with a suggestion that we both "stay away from each other" for a cooling-off period. I obediently spent some time away from Wikipedia. DE ignored the admin's instruction, and used this time to utilize his user page to rally more support for name calling and cyber bullying. I eventually logged on and found a message from an admin that, because I hadn't pursued the matter (during my "cooling off period" that was an admin's suggestion in the first place) the issue was officially considered resolved. Any glance at either my own or DE's user pages would see that it hadn't been resolved at all. Not knowing what else to do, I retired my account. I now limit my Wikipedia edits to correcting minor spelling and grammar errors, and I do so anonymously. Whenever I see the term "Wikipedia community," my mind always extends the metaphor to "on the wrong side of the tracks." The Wikipedia community failed me completely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.130.196 (talk) 05:21, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Cheer up. There is only freedom among the proles. 75.166.192.187 (talk) 05:29, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

• Perhaps consider WP:Clean_start with a new username: Cases of bullying can be very difficult for busy admins to analyze, as it is possible for bored people to "invent" disguised trouble which, at first, seems to be angry users attacking the bully (but actually goaded as long-term "90 scratches create a wound"). Well, it takes a lot of time to show an admin how someone (or a wp:TAGTEAM) created trouble by a twisted series of 90 small, peculiar edits. Normal people do not want to spend hours of their time trying to prove such demented behavior for an admin to confirm. Hence, many users just invoke WP:Clean_start (WP:NEWSTART) to retire the old username, and invent an entirely new username to edit other articles, with the help of a friendly admin to avoid appearance of WP:SOCKpuppetry. Although it is hoped that people come here to help write interesting articles, there are some people who seem to come to compete, or "toy" with victims to prove they can "beat" other people by concocting warped cyber-games. So, use WP:NEWSTART to edit with a new username, and then perhaps months from now, the prior bullies will quit from boredom (or "find Jesus" on their road to Hell), and the former username could be reactivated, after only "going into hiding" for a limited timespan, and returning the original username from years ago. Please think of bullies as temporary, and an original username could be salvaged in the long run. -Wikid77 07:02, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I would recommend neither editing as an ip (which has its own set of problems) nor starting a new account per WP:Clean_start. Instead, I recommend going back through your complaint and each time you make a factual claim ("foul language", "name-calling", "DE responded that..."). Without that, it is difficult for me to assist in correcting the problem.

I can help in two ways. First, and more important to you, I can seek to bring serious attention to your specific case and try to set things right, whatever that may involve. Second, and more important philosophically, if things are as you say then yes, the Wikipedia community failed you completely, and so I can help brainstorm about broader solutions.

We are in a general drive to improve editor retention. One of the apparent paradoxes of wanting to keep more (good) editors is to recognize that a certain number of difficult people simply need to be shown the door more quickly. It helps to have high-quality case studies so that more good editors can understand what needs to be done. It sounds to me like your example would be useful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:06, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I think some text is missing from Jimbo's comment. I imagine he wants to see some links to pages that illustrate the issues mentioned because there is no way to evaluate any of the claims made. Johnuniq (talk) 10:22, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Norway's premier weapons manufacturer and disruptive edits

Kongsberg Gruppen ASA is the official name of the company, as registered with Norway's government in the Entity Registry (Norway).

Should that not be a part of the article Kongsberg Gruppen?

Disruptive edit [2] ? --Vistamesa (talk) 11:40, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Why not discuss that on the article talkpage in order to obtain WP:CONSENSUS to include it? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:50, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Here's another idea: take a look at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Sju hav and ignore the troll. --Eisfbnore ^{(下さいて話し)} 11:58, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

@Bwilkins: Can you please move this discussion to the talk page that you mentioned?

@Eisfbnore: Please start an Ad hominem discussion on my talk page. --Vistamesa (talk) 12:22, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Bribes by a Norwegian company in Libya--references and text have been removed regarding Yara International

Can something be done about this disruptive edit [3]. That editor seems to be on a combined stalk-and-revert mission. Wp:Stalking? --Vistamesa (talk) 14:14, 5 July 2012 (UTC)