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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 70.50.149.56 (talk) at 21:56, 7 October 2012 (convert custom code to standard archivebox template). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Requested move 1

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page not moved. Arbitrarily0 (talk) 02:25, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reconstruction era of the United States → Reconstruction of the United States — Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:04, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

era doesn't follow capitalization conventions, really doesn't do anything for the title (it is more commonly referred to as Reconstruction than the Reconstruction Era). Four characters we don't need. Nothing else is referred to as "Reconstrcution of the United States", so no ambiguity problem Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 22:35, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Without any further modification, the term "Reconstruction" could refer to the period of US history. However, a modified title such as "Reconstruction of the United States" is unusual. Adding the term "era" helps to clarify the meaning. older ≠ wiser 22:41, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not unusual, and doesn't need to be clarified. "Reconstruction era of the United States" is a) more unusual than "Reconstruction of the United States); and b) Has four characters you don't need Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 22:47, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As a native speaker of English, "Reconstruction of the United States" sounds unusual. If you can provide evidence that that exact phrase is what is most commonly used to refer to the era, then I'll defer. But otherwise is seems an ungrammatical and unusual title. older ≠ wiser 22:53, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wah? Ungrammatical? It's just Noun+Prepositional Phrase: Reconstruction (noun) of (prep.) the (art.) United States (P. Noun). See here and here for my basis. It's exactly the same as the sentence "Construction of the Empire State Building began in 1930" without the verb and the second prepositional phrase (the stuff after began). I know Reconstruction might seem like an adjective, but it's really a noun like other -tion words. As a student of American history, I've heard Reconstruction used much more than Reconstruction Era; just add "of the United States" to the prevailing title to distinguish from other reconstructions Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 23:07, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Clarify from what? ... well how about common English usage. There are lots of ways a page could be unambiguously titled on Wikipedia, but such idiosyncratic stylings are irrelevant if they do not match common usage. As I've already indicated above, I don't think the phrase "Reconstruction of the United States" is common or idiosyncratic. IMO, including the term "era", either capitalized or not, clarifies the title. older ≠ wiser 23:22, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, Wiktionary is unacceptable as a reliable source. 23:26, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
I was using it in a grammatical sense Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 00:51, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Kenneth M. Stampp's important work on Reconstruction is titled "The Era of Reconstruction, 1865-1877". Eric Foner in the very first paragraph of his work "Reconstruction:America's Unfinished Revolution" refers to Reconstruction as "the violent, dramatic, and still controversial era that followed the Civil War." David Donald in "The Politics of Reconstruction, 1863-1867" refers to the "Reconstruction era" in the first paragraph of his work. Brooks Simpson in "The Reconstruction Presidents" in the first paragraph of the introduction refers to "Reconstruction, an era of American history." The suggested new name is historically inaccurate -- it was NOT the entire United States that was reconstructed but the rebellious states that were reconstructed. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 23:42, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If "Reconstruction Era" were the prominent title, wouldn't Donald have called his work "The Politics of the Reconstruction Era" instead of the "Politics of Reconstruction". I don't see how the addition of era makes it any more or less accurate...it's a temporal rather than geographic reference Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 00:51, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. As North Shoreman demonstrates, the standard usage among scholars is to put in the "Era". Lots of recent books can be added, such as The Crisis of the American Republic: A History of the Civil War and Reconstruction Era (1995) by Allen C. Guelzo; The Reconstruction Era (The Drama of African-American History series) by Bettye Stroud and Virginia Schomp (2006); Reconstruction Era Reference Library: Biography by Roger Matuz (2004); and Encyclopedia of the Reconstruction Era by Richard Zuczek (2006). ...Let me suggest the compromise: Capitalize Era in the title, thus following most books. "Reconstruction Era of the United States" Rjensen (talk) 05:18, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's Era of Good Feelings not Era of good feelings. It's Bronze Age, not Bronze age. It's Year of the Four Emperors, not Year of the four emperors. It's Year Without a Summer, not..., American Dream, not ... Reconstruction of the United States sounds like somebody's future project -- for the ENTIRE USA --JimWae (talk) 05:49, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The article covers the "Reconstruction era". Renaming it to something else is senseless. It might be better at Reconstruction Era (USA) or Reconstruction (USA) but "Reconstruction of the United States" makes no sense, since it could refer to the New Deal; or post Revolution period. 76.66.193.224 (talk) 04:10, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, if anyone cares, Reconstruction Era is currently a redirect (to this)...you could move it there. Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 15:08, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Purple, are you so sure that simply "Reconstruction Era" can't possibly refer to anything else? I think it would be best if we left it as is, with both "Era" and "of the United States" in the title. That way, there can be absolutely no confusion. Watersoftheoasis (talk) 16:18, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
From a purely technical view, Wikipedia has existed for 5-6 yrs. and nobody found any other uses for it... Water, I'm coming at this from a Common Name POV, in that I want to make titles shorter for easier navigation Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 18:47, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]


"Reconstruction Era" is a term used in the history of other countries after WW2 (Germany, Italy, Poland, etc), and also South Africa. Rjensen (talk) 19:04, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Then thank you for volunteering to make it a disambiguation page, Jensen Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 23:18, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment in trying to close this. My sense after reading the discussion is that the objection may be mostly to the proposed name since there are several reconstruction eras in the US. There may even been consensus here to convert the current page to a dab page for the various eras. If my reading of the discussion is correct, then the question becomes what should the new article name be? I'm not seeing one above. So I was wondering if Reconstruction era of the United States (1863 - 1877) would work. From reading the article that seems to be a valid option. If this needs more discussion let me know and I'll relist this for another 7 days. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:16, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest "Reconstruction Era of the United States" works for all-- capital E in Era is the only change. (there is only one "Reconstruction Era" in US history.) Rjensen (talk) 23:31, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That works if people have issues with the caps. I personally prefer simply "Reconstruction" - like "Dominion" there are other uses, but this is the predominant one - but am okay with giving due deference to Reconstruction (law) and whatever other countries may have articles in the name of anti-US-centrism. "Reconstruction of the United States" is clearly inappropriate and confusing. Recognizance (talk) 18:08, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quite the opposite. There is only one Reconstruction in American history; the chief problem with the proposed name, is that it did not reconstruct the United States, but less than a dozen of the individual States. The proposed name is therefore inaccurate, but is not idiom; WP:AT opposes this, even more than it opposes tsunami being renamed tidal wave. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:41, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I came to close but decided to comment instead :) Shouldn't the title be Reconstruction Era (United States). The current title sounds a bit clumsy. Assuming that there are other countries with reconstruction eras and that Reconstruction Era would need to be disambiguated. --RegentsPark (talk) 17:25, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see no evidence that it is ambiguous; for what it's worth, Reconstruction Era redirects here, and I know of, and can find, no other candidate; it's an unusual term, for an almost unparallelled situation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:41, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose- The words "Reconstruction era" let the reader know that the article is on the civil war. "Reconstruction of the United States" is an odd sounding name because it implies that the entire United States was destroyed at some point. The current title is more precise. The name that you were suggesting sounds like something on the list of deleted articles with freaky titles called Collapse of the United States. As for the capitalization thing, it goes along with that policy that says only the first letter of article titles should be capitalized except proper nouns. However stupid the capitalization policy is, the word era should still be there. --WikiDonn (talk) 21:55, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose- "Reconstruction era (United States)" would be all right, but I agree with others - have not seen this term widely used anywhere else and "Reconstruction of the United States" has the wrong sense. Also wish the capitalization policy were not so out of keeping with general usage.Parkwells (talk) 22:41, 11 June 2010 (UTC) Comment 'Reconstruction Era' is a proper noun. A proper noun is one that refers to a particular person, place or thing as this certainly does. Hmains (talk) 03:00, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Biased overall tone

While some sections are balanced in presenting and documenting opposing viewpoints, the overall tone and certain entire sections are biased in favor of the perspective of aggrieved Southern white opponents of Reconstruction. Pejorative terms like scalawags and carpetbaggers are employed as if they were not derogatory. (The Wikipedia entry for "scalawag" reads as if written by the editor of this article.) The oversimplified conclusion that everyone agrees that Reconstruction was a failure is supported by sections that suggest that white Southerners were oppressed and that giving civil rights and power to blacks was unfair to non-"scalawag" whites. There is a big difference between a "failure" caused by those who fought and sabotaged it, and a "failure" because the objectives and methods employed were unjust. The fact that some historians employ scalawag and carpetbagger throughout their discussions of Reconstruction reflects their own bias or poor judgment. It is no excuse for doing so here. This article should give a clear portrait of the forces in conflict and their respective goals. Scalawag and carpetbagger should be used only when explaining what one group called another, and the derogatory nature of the terms made abundantly clear. The fact that one group in the conflict initiated terrorist campaigns against the others should be made more central to the story. The consequences of the resulting defeat of Reconstruction should end the article, not the misleading claim that there is consensus over its "failure." --Lastudies (talk) 22:11, 5 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

nonsensical unsigned comment

for some reason following the cival war the reconstruction era began and changed the live of fellow american citizens. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.186.233 (talk) 19:53, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Economy after the Civil War

I believe there should be a section devoted to the devastated economy and infrastructures in the South after at the beginning of the section. This could give better insight into the African American and White labor disputes and racist attitudes. Any suggestions. Cmguy777 (talk) 20:34, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea. I added a detailed report, with citations. More should be added on health conditions and death rates. Rjensen (talk) 21:45, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I pared it down as befits a background section and added a
Further information: [[:History of the Southern United States#Material ruin|History of the Southern United States § Material ruin]]
flag to the article section you copied over in its entirety. Abby Kelleyite (talk) 22:32, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks RJensen for adding the section! That was fast. I found a good list of the economic costs both direct and indirect for the Union and the Confederacy. Cmguy777 (talk) 00:22, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Long Introduction?

It seems to me that the introduction is too long. At first glance, it seems to be one of the articles with no sections. I suggest shortening it. 67.170.103.34 (talk) 04:16, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree the introduction should be summarized. 74.42.182.5 (talk) 18:40, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Seriously? SERIOUSLY!!!???

IT'S TOO LONG! I CANNOT READ IT ALL! HELP ME! Ian.bjorn (talk) 01:29, 3 October 2010 (UTC)!!!!!!!!![reply]

Seriously? SERIOUSLY!!!???

IT'S TOO LONG! I CANNOT READ IT ALL! HELP ME! Ian.bjorn (talk) 01:29, 3 October 2010 (UTC)!!!!!!!!![reply]

Wiki has short versions at History of the United States (1865–1918) and at History of the Southern United States#Reconstruction (1863-1877)Rjensen (talk) 03:57, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Or this. --KorruskiTalk 16:36, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This article could be longer! The reason why there is so much material is because there was so much resistance to Reconstruction in Louisiana, Mississippi, and South Carolina. There was also a Congressional war with President Johnson and massive material destruction that took place in the South. Cmguy777 (talk) 01:57, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed edits

Suggested Moves I was thinking of adding under the section of material devastation some discussion of urban experiences of freedpeople. This addition would give a more complete picture of life in the Reconstruction era, Also, I wanted to include a section on the legalization of slave unions after the section on the Louisana 10% plan. Also, in the black codes section I was thinking of adding a section on the gendered nature of discrimination in the South during this period. These changes would include more of the social history of the U.S. during this period and give a fuller picture of the history of Reconstruction. Please let me know if you have any comments.Amherstory (talk) 05:44, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

what sources are you using? Rjensen (talk) 06:22, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As long as its in accord with the five pillars. Two things to pay special attention to are reliable sources and neutral point of view. If you're bashful about your first contributions, add just one piece at a time and see how it goes, or as some new editors like to do it, be bold and go for it. Jojalozzo 10:58, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What legislation legalized slave unions? Was this federal or state legislation and when was this legislation passed? In the current article there is no mention of actual specific legislation passed. Cmguy777 (talk) 02:00, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think each state passed laws--eg Tennessee in 1866 had a new law that said "That all free persons of color who were living together as husband and wife in this State while in a state of slavery are hereby declared to be man and wife, and their children legitimately entitled to an inheritance in any property heretofore acquired, or that may hereafter be acquired, by said parents, to as full an extent as the children of white citizens are now entitled by the existing laws of this State." online Rjensen (talk) 02:06, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
My concern is that these laws apparently were passed after President Lincoln. The Tennessee law was passed in 1866. Maybe this segment belongs under the Johnson Presidency section. Cmguy777 (talk) 20:08, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Since these laws were passed by states, rather then federal or presidential authority, maybe the slave union information needs to be a seperate section. Cmguy777 (talk) 20:13, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Congressional investigation (1871-1872)

Any objection into putting a paragraph section on the extensive Congressional investigation on the status of Reconstruction states? This section could be put right after the Grant: the Radical President section. Cmguy777 (talk) 03:18, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nathan B. Forrest didn't found the KKK, but by the 1870s, he was supposedly had been elected the Grand Wizard or whatever the top title was. It was founded in TN by a group of younger men, all Confederate veterans, and independent chapters sprang up across the South. Parkwells (talk) 19:32, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Good edits Parkwells. I believe Forrest was the Klan's first overall leader, The Grand Wizard. Cmguy777 (talk) 23:13, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Etcheson source

Did Etcheson take a survey of historians that Reconstruction was a failure? I believe there is an element of POV and myth creating. How is failure defined? Are historians siding with the Dunning School? Is Etcheson part of the Dunning school? Cmguy777 (talk) 04:47, 26 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

yes Etchison reviewed all the major studies by recent scholars before coming to her conclusion. Likewise Foner reaches the same conclusion. The debate is about what caused the failure. Rjensen (talk) 05:05, 26 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Then Etchison and Foner are part of the Dunning School.(Correction: Etchison and Foner are not part of the Dunning School.) Cmguy777 (talk) 05:48, 26 August 2011 (UTC) The article states there was a failure, but does not define what the failure is. How does Etchison and Foner define failure in terms of Reconstruction? Cmguy777 (talk) 05:20, 26 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Failure issue

Prokopowicz, is a Lincoln Scholar. Prokopowicz has a PH.D. from Harvard. He was taken out of the article as a source. Rjenson, was Prokopowicz taken out of the article because Reconstruction was outside his specialty? Cmguy777 (talk) 00:08, 7 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Etchison and Foner are most emphatically not part of the Dunning school. Please read them. Prokopowicz was dropped because he had only a very brief discussion, as compared to the much more detailed sources listed at Dunning school. On Foner look at footnote 133 Rjensen (talk) 05:25, 26 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If I read the Foner source correctly, then failure means the abandonment of blacks by the federal government. I believe failure needs to be defined in the article, since Foner and Etchison are not part of the Dunning School, yet, all three claim Reconstruction was a failure. Foner does mention there were accomplishments in Reconstruction. Does the article adequately define failure and give a distinction between Foner, Etchison, and Dunning? Cmguy777 (talk) 05:44, 26 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
the section discusses the differing views of numerous scholars. Rjensen (talk) 07:03, 26 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. McFeely addressed this issue by stating no permanent agency was set up specifically for Civil Rights. That article lists reasons for this "failure" as the Supreme Court decisions of 1880's, the reestablishment of conservative white planter class, and no specific agency to designed specifically for Civil Rights. However, the Department of Justice was a permanent agency made to tackle Civil Rights issues along with the Solicitor General. The term "failure" has not necessarily been defined. There is no mention of the Solid South being formed to block every piece of legislation designed to help African Americans, particularly the Dyer Anti lynching bill in 1921. Basically in the South, there was mob rule, meaning if the mob wanted to lynch someone, that person would be lynched. There was no deference to the courts. How is failure being defined in the article? Does failure automatically assume the myth [ref Prokopowicz, (2008), pp. 234, 235] that Southerners were the victims of the "evil" Radical Republicans?
The question is about Reconstruction and the section is fully sourced. If some RS says that Reconstruction was on the whole a success then it should be added. Rjensen (talk) 18:09, 26 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The goal of Reconstruction was to protect former African American slaves. Lack of enforcement and disrespect of the laws was why Reconstruction failed. However, in my opinion, the article is biased in that Dunning School appears to take precedence, where failure means that giving blacks rights is somehow fundamentally corrupt. Is this what the legacy section is implying? Cmguy777 (talk) 02:39, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The Dunning School is a mythical interpretation of the Reconstruction and does not address the actual legacy. Southerners barred blacks from taking federal office in the South. Mobs ruled the streets and the courts did nothing to stop lynching. The legacy of Reconstruction was lawlessness and mob rule. I believe this needs to be in the article. Rep. Dyer attempted to pass an anti-lynching bill but Southern Senators and Republican Borah stopped the passage of the bill. Cmguy777 (talk) 16:12, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Rjensen for the changes made to the Legacy section! Cmguy777 (talk) 23:50, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why is "Era" capitalized in the title?

I think "era" should be lower case in the title. It was capitalized in March 2011 without discussion or objection as far as I can see. Jojalozzo 18:48, 26 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The word "era" is a noun that means a series of years from a fixed point in time. I do not believe the word "era" has to be capitalized. I believe lower case is appropriate for the article. Possibly editor consensus is needed. Cmguy777 (talk) 02:11, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
publishers use it both ways. I prefer the capitalized "Era" because "Reconstruction Era" is the name of a specific event like the "Second World War" (it's never "2nd world war). Rjensen (talk) 02:23, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Santo Domingo

Could President Grant's annexation attempt of Santo Domingo be considered Reconstruction Policy? Grant had wanted a stronghold statehood for African Americans in the South. Cmguy777 (talk) 18:27, 11 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

POV

There is a lot of opinion adjectives injected into the introduction that I've noticed so far. For example:

  • "In furious battles" -> "In battles"
  • "the president prevailed" -> "the president succeeded"
  • "commenced in earnest" -> "commenced"
  • "Lincoln's lenient policies" -> "LIncoln's policies"
  • etc...


Perhaps the more appropriate tag would be the {{Essay-like}} template. But I wasn't sure what constituted as essay-like. I don't have enough time to fix the article myself so I'll only make the changes that I pointed out. Devourer09 (t·c) 19:00, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No objection to the changes you suggest above. BusterD (talk) 19:02, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep up the good work. I'll also give it a once-over. Jojalozzo 22:13, 5 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Andrew Johnson and overthrow plot

I have put in the reference desk a topic of discussion over whether President Johnson was planning a military overthrow of the Radical Government for not allowing Southern States to be readmitted. Here is the link. Andrew Johnson overthrow plot Source: Badeau (1887), Grant in peace: From Appomattox to Mount McGregor, p. 50-52 Cmguy777 (talk) 20:15, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lynchings

This article states Blacks were treated as second class citizens after Reconstruction. What about all the lynchings of blacks from 1882 to 1964 in the Reconstructed states. Doesn't this need to be mentioned? I would say blacks had no rights and were subject to an extreme violent deaths in the Reconstructed states. Second class citizens may be an understatement. Source: Lynchings: By State and Race, 1882-1968. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:27, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

the lynchings were fought by the Progressives and declined dramatically by the 1920s. After 1900 lynchings mostly happened in rural areas with little or no law enforcement (they were rare in towns and cities where they were police). In the towns and cities the police & courts did protect the blacks from vigilantes. Rjensen (talk) 20:50, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the lynching of blacks was a sporting event to Southern Whites who talked about lynchings as if they hunting animals. There were over 500 lynchings in Mississippi. From what I have read the lynching process was brutal, that included public viewing, hanging, shooting, dragging and mutilating their victims. The Solid South defeated anti-lynching legislation sponsored by the NAACP and Senator Representative Leonidas C. Dyer. Yes, there was gradual decline of lynching since the lynching was drawing national attention. Lynching was a policy of extermination of blacks. Can one honestly say that being lynched was part of "second class" citizenship? Blacks were U.S. citizens who were deprived of their citizenship rights. Cmguy777 (talk) 05:16, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

watch the POV. "sporting event" is at the same level of accuracy as the lynched men being rapists. The Southern Whites were the ones who put a stop to it. The question is what the RS say about citizenship and they use "second class citizen" as in Paul Finkelman (2006). Encyclopedia of African American History, 1619-1895: From the Colonial Period to the Age of Frederick Douglass. Oxford University Press. p. 9. and the 3900 texts in a google search Rjensen (talk) 09:14, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I did not orignate the "sporting event" analogy, Rjensen. The Pittsburg Gazzette Times did on June 28, 1919, page 6 in an article titled Mississippi 'Orderly' Lynching. The article concluded that the Southerners viewed lynching the same as a sport. The Southerners and one Senator Borah from Idaho defeated Rep. Dyers anti-lynching bill three times. Dyer's anti- lyching tour during the 1920's put public pressure on the Southerners to gradually stop the lynchings. Rather then protect the rights of African Americans, the Southerners lynched blacks. Why is there so much resistance to mentioning the lynchings in the Reconstruction article? Does Finkleman include lynching as part of being a second class citizen? Cmguy777 (talk) 14:32, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

don't mix up mob violence in defiance of state law, and legal citizenship. As for legal status the Southern legislatures, courts and political system gave the blacks 2nd class status, and that came after Reconstruction ended. That's what the RS say. Rjensen (talk) 14:55, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That makes sense, Rjensen. Maybe the article needs to clarify the that Second Class status was the legal status of African Americans at the time. The actual status of blacks was that they were under duress of being lynched after Reconstruction and as far as I know no Southern legal agency took any steps to protect African Americans from being lynched. I never originated that idea that "lynched men were rapists". That was a Southern origination in order to justify the lynchings. I added a link to the article that stated "certain elements" viewed lynchings not as a neccessity but as a sport. My suggestion then would be to mention that mob rule prevailed at times in the South and Mid West and possibly that the Southern states made no efforts to legally protect African Americans, if there are any sources that mention this issue. Cmguy777 (talk) 15:15, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Does lynching need to be mentioned in the article or that the Southern State governments failed to protect the rights of African Americans after Reconstruction? The article mentions Reconstruction as a failure, but was the aftermath of removing the troops is not mentioned as a failure since their were no laws that protected blacks from being lynched. Cmguy777 (talk) 21:42, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Stick to topic and era

I've made changes to the Lede to try to indicate those events that took place well after Reconstruction - namely, passage of the disfranchising constitutions, 1890-1900s. I don't think we should go too far in including all the post-Reconstruction events as part of this era, or it will be too confusing. There is already so much to cover within the timeframe. Freedmen did not lose all their political power by 1877; they were electing the peak number of black local officeholders in the 1880s in many states, and elected five blacks to the US Congress in the last decade of the 19th century. The key to their second-class status was their disfranchisement achieved by whites near the turn of the century, which completed what state legislatures had started by restrictive voter registration and other rules. The political struggle continued in the 1880s and 1890s; in many states, a biracial coalition of Republicans and Populists controlled some state legislatures in the 1890s. Parkwells (talk) 15:25, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Parkwells, the article mentioned the "second class status" of blacks in the South after Reconstruction. The above discussion was concerned that mentioning lynchings needed to be included, since there was mob rule after the U.S. military left the Southern States. Cmguy777 (talk) 16:12, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
what happened in the 1890s long AFTER Reconstruction is a famous story, but it does not belong in the lede of this article. And certainly speculation about what might have happened regarding manufacturing if history had been different is not part of the lede, which is designed to summarize the article. Rjensen (talk) 16:26, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree - was just working first with what was already there; did not add the quote on manufacturing or data on late 19th c. Agree that the later stuff should be deleted.Parkwells (talk) 17:41, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Legacy and historiography

This section has gotten all mixed up - to evaluate the historiography, I think the discussion should follow as the works were written - chronologically. In addition, I don't think it's the place for a discussion of Harris' journalism, which was not historiography, but an effort to influence current society of his time. Under Grady's editorship, he wrote mostly AFTER Reconstruction. Nor do I think the historiography section is the place for discussion of Birth of a Nation in its various forms, which were mostly 20th c. works, if part of a cultural legacy. I've put that content in a sub-section called "In popular culture". Also the section related to Lerone Bennett, Jr's book does not adequately represent Eric Foner's review. It is difficult to know what the original editor of the content on Bennett intended. It's a recent book that joined many works (including Bennett's own earlier writing) in saying that Lincoln had some racist views, but that's not news.Parkwells (talk) 17:41, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the changes on the Bennett section. It still seems out of place; I think it belongs more in an article on Lincoln than in this one and would like to delete the paragraph altogether. Thoughts? Parkwells (talk) 01:19, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This has been mentioned before, but the Dunning school's purpose was to denigrate Ulysses S. Grant and Reconstruction. If this is true on face value alone, then does the the Dunning school need to be considered historical corruption? Cmguy777 (talk) 21:47, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The Dunning schools purpose was not to attack Grant (as president)--it was not necessary for every historian in those days (and until recently) attacked Grant. In fact the Dunning School seldom wrote about Grant. Rjensen (talk) 22:27, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Stick to other historians' arguments in RS with Dunning and his representatives; Du Bois marshaled facts in his book on Reconstruction, as have Foner and others. Labelling a group of historians as "historically corrupt" is POV and not appropriate for Wikipedia. Most historians reflect their times. Parkwells (talk) 01:19, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why are historians immune from corruption charges? Cmguy777 (talk) 02:17, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why has Grant's Administration been ignored for so long by historians? Cmguy777 (talk) 05:42, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't a forum on corruption, but to me, it implies events within the political realm: payoffs, favors, bribes. Again, please go to RS. I seem to recall Grant's administration being accused of corruption, in the classical political sense, and think it has been covered by historians, perhaps not recently. The question is - how did his administration compare to others of the times, and to events at the state government level, not just what we think of it today. That is, it has to be evaluated on more than one level, just as historians more recently have compared Jefferson to his cohort in terms of his actions related to slavery. for example, in Grant's time, the use of patronage was much more widespread and people found that acceptable as part of the system -except, of course, when their own people weren't getting the benefit of patronage. Postmaster appointments were classic for setting up local patronage systems, as apparently they could hire supporters as workers.Parkwells (talk) 11:49, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am not talking financial corruption, rather, the corruption of neglect, political and media suppression, in historical perspectives. To have such a one sided view of Reconstruction as the Dunning school is corruption, Radical Republicans were the evil bad guys and conservative planter Democrats were the political good guys. Are historians on such a high pedestal that they are untouchable? I know this is off the subject. A modern example would be how Dumas Malone got CBS to cancel a miniseries that suggested Thomas Jefferson had an affair with Sally Hemings. Isn't that corruption, having complete control of a network, sqashing Chase-Riboud's account of Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings? [Kuhn (2010), p.74]. More recently, CBS also cancelled a mini series on The Reagans in November 2003. Modern text books rarely put President Grant in any positive manner. Cmguy777 (talk) 16:03, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lincoln and slavery

Was Lincoln neutral on the slavery issue? I am not sure if this article addressed that issue. He stated he desired to save the Union with or without freeing the slaves. That would imply that he did not have any moral obligation to end slavery. Lincoln opposed the spread of slavery into other states or territories on economic grounds. Does this issue belong in the Lincoln and slavery article or can this be mentioned in this article? Cmguy777 (talk) 16:50, 14 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If I'm not mistaken, while Lincoln was personally opposed to slavery, during the War the preservation of the Union was his primary outcome. I believe it's best illustrated by one of his famous quotes:

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union." : Letter to Horace Greeley (22 August 1862) The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume V, p. 388-389

With the Letter Lincoln replied to an Open Editorial in Greeley's New York Tribune in which Greeley wrote "On the face of this wide earth, Mr. President, there is not one... intelligent champion of the Union cause who does not feel... that the rebellion, if crushed tomorrow, would be renewed if slavery were left in full vigor... and that every hour of deference to slavery is an hour of added and deepened peril to the Union." see Horace Greeley, "A Prayer for Twenty Millions," New York Tribune, August 20, 1862 in "Dear Mr. Lincoln: Letters to the President" Edited by Harold Holzer (Southern Illinois University Press; 1st edition (January 20, 2006)), p. 160-161

(emphasis added) If this quote is not already in the article, perhaps it should be added? Cheers, Zaldax (talk) 15:29, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

the quote is being misread. He says that in his official capacity as president he has certain restraints but personally he wants to end slavery. Furthermore those presidential restraints could and did change a few weeks after his letter with the preliminary Emanc Proc. It's very dangerous to use primary sources-- Wiki rules say to use reliable secondary sources. Rjensen (talk) 15:46, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I believe Lincoln was a moderate in terms of Reconstruction. I suppose I need to rephrase my question. Prior to the Emancipation Proclamation, was Lincoln neutral on slavery? He desired that all men be free, but what speeches did he give that were against slavery specifically? What sources state Lincoln was against slavery? Even as President he desired to pay the slave owners for the freedom of their slaves. Is this in a sense legitimizing slavery? Cmguy777 (talk) 20:36, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lincoln worked very hard in 1861-62 to get slavery abolished in DC (success) and in border states (they refused). Slavery was indeed legitimate and hat was not an issue outside small abolitionist circles. The issue was ending it peacefully. Rjensen (talk) 05:33, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lincoln then viewed slavery in terms of economics, legal perspectives, and military protraction of the war effort. Did Lincoln ever view slavery as being as an immoral institution that needed to be destroyed or was he morally tolerant of slavery and slave owners? Cmguy777 (talk) 16:42, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Image montage?

The article does look imposing without any sort of infobox or image montage at the top of the page. Any ideas for what to include?

Cheers, Zaldax (talk) 15:23, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting, I tried this once, however, other editors apparently viewed there was no image that adequately depicts Reconstruction. The photo that shows the destruction of Charlottesville Charleson in my opinion was a good photo for an comprehensive view of Reconstruction, however, other editors did not desire this. What photos, Zaldax, did you have in mind? Cmguy777 (talk) 17:03, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
the problem is that the Charleston image was taken before Recon really began. Rjensen (talk) 18:10, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Rjensen. One option that I thought would be was to show black men at the voting poll in 1867. Lincoln was martyred because he said he believed in limited suffrage for black soldiers. All of the turmoil that surrounded Reconstruction concerned blacks voting or holding office. This is only a suggestion. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:51, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the photo. Cmguy777 (talk) 20:04, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

During Reconstruction African Americans were freed from slavery, enfranchised, and given suffrage.
that's a good illustration--there is a colorized version (done at the time for sale as a lithograph) of it that is quite dramatic.Rjensen (talk) 21:28, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. The colorized version would be good. I can look for at the Library of Congress website. Cmguy777 (talk) 01:29, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I could not find a colored version of the illustration at the Library of Congress. Would the Black and White version do? Cmguy777 (talk) 05:49, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
yes Rjensen (talk) 07:54, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Johnson as a moderate

Was President Johnson a moderate or a conservitive in terms of Reconstruction? According to Woodward-McFeely (1974) President Johnson did everything he could to dismantle Reconstruction and his impeachment had to do with his resistance to Radical Reconstruction. Cmguy777 (talk) 20:46, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox

Here would be a potential infobox. I did not want to just place one in the article without editor approval. Please make any changes where needed. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:48, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reconstruction Era of the United States
African Americans in line voting for the first time in 1867
Reconstruction freed and enfranchized African Americans and gave them the right to vote for the first time in 1867.
DateJanuary 1, 1863 (1863-01-01) to March 31, 1877 (1877-03-31)
LocationUnited States
Also known asReconstruction
ParticipantsPresident Abraham Lincoln
President Andrew Johnson
President Ulysses S. Grant
President Rutherford B. Hayes
Reconstructed States
OutcomeThirteenth Amendment
Fourteenth Amendment
Fifteenth Amendment
DeathsLincoln Assassination

There is a "thumbtime=" appearance when the pointer marker is moved over the photo. Does anyone know how to get rid of that? Cmguy777 (talk) 16:13, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 2

Reconstruction Era of the United States → Reconstruction Era – There's no ambiguity in this more concise term, at least not as evidenced here. --BDD (talk) 19:38, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose the term "reconstruction era" is often used after a devastating war--as in Korea after 1953. Also France after WWI (In the speech at Strasbourg that crowned his long career Premier Clemenceau gave the slogan for the reconstruction era. He said simply, "Work is our salvation."]; Germany after WW2 [While the Wall symbolised ultimately the political split of Germany and Europe, it also ...marked the definite end of the reconstruction era.]; USSR; Finland [In the postwar reconstruction era, however, the share of social expenditure in the central government budget rose.... ]; China [ during the Taiping and post-Taiping reconstruction era by officials eager to bolster the empire's commercial economy.... ] etc etc. Rjensen (talk) 23:47, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, but Reconstruction Era already redirects here. And a lowercase "reconstruction era" can refer to, of course, any era of reconstruction. But the proper noun capitalization refers to a specific period, namely this one. If you think there's potential for confusion, consider making a disambiguation page, noting that Reconstruction Era already redirects here. Otherwise, why disambiguate for nonexistent topics? --BDD (talk) 04:41, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Many US historians use "Reconstruction era" eg: 1) Mary Beth Norton textbook = "Should the Reconstruction era be considered the Second American Revolution?"; 2) Moneyhone on Texas "The Reconstruction era saw not only this simple increased..."; 3) Obrien 2009 = "Soon after the end of slavery, the Reconstruction- era U.S...."; 4) Katz 2009 on baseball: "Overall, the sport had a democratizing and unifying effect during the Reconstruction era."; 5) Howell 2008 = "during the Reconstruction era in Texas" etc. keep well enough alone. Rjensen (talk) 05:25, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As I understand it, "Era" is being used as natural disambiguation here; I think "Reconstruction" is the most common name for the period but not necessarily a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. However, it's hard to argue that this isn't the primary topic for "Reconstruction Era," given that that redirects here and there's no dab page to indicate any other usage. --BDD (talk) 15:22, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
the request takes a narrowly American view and seems unaware that the term is used in many countries to refer to their own histories--the common factor is the rebuilding process after a devastating war (as in China, Korea, Germany, France, etc.) The fact (see cites above) that many American scholars and leading publishers & scholarly journals use the term "Reconstruction era" (lower case era) means that it is NOT true that the term "Reconstruction Era" (upper case Era) is standard usage in the US. The current article title workks fine and causes no confusion and is not aggressively American. Rjensen (talk) 16:10, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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