Talk:Guy Fawkes

King James a Protestant ?!

The open sentence of the Gunpowder Plot section reads: "In 1604 Fawkes became involved with a small group of English Catholics, led by Robert Catesby, who planned to assassinate the Protestant King James"

This oversimplification is incorrect; King James was the king but his power base, the English aristocracy, was largely was Protestant. As a result he instructed many protestant reformist actions but he himself was essentially a Roman Catholic. The Catesby group were an extremist group of Roman Catholics who viewed James I as a traitor to his religion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vman2000 (talk • contribs) 15:28, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

No, most reliable sources refer to James as Protestant. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:03, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Name the reliable sources please. James I was the son of a Catholic, baptised and raised a Catholic and all his children were raised Catholic. When was his conversion? He was responsible for a lot of pro-protestant laws of course but he had a difficult job keeping his noblemen content. He was constantly infuriated by the actions of the more extreme Catholics as their actions were blocking his ultimate goal of returning the Anglican Church to Rome. He needed Rome to reform a little for this to happen but that’s a long way short of being a protestant. To simply describe James as a protestant is incorrect, so the opening paragraph is incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.114.167.209 (talk) 23:43, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Name even one reliable source that describes James as a Catholic. Malleus Fatuorum 23:47, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

His "conversion" happened at 1 yr old, when he was permanently removed from his mother, & raised as a Presbyterian under the direction of the Scottish Parliament. Read his bio, and those of his children too, like the Protestant heroine Elizabeth Stuart, Queen of Bohemia. Johnbod (talk) 03:50, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Re: Biased removal of submitted comment!

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes

I submitted the following text as an edit to the above article and it was deleted in a matter of seconds:

Masks of the face of Guy Fawkes are available to protest movements that pursue social revolution. Wearing the mask is in itself an act of public revolt.

This protest movement and a brief movie representation of the death of Guy Fawkes was presented in the movie "V for vendetta" internal link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_for_Vendetta_(film). From the end of the movie thousands of people, all wearing the mask of Guy Fawkes and his costume, descend on the British parliament building to watch as it is blow up in an act of social revolution from neoconservative fascism, which had become the dominant social force in the film.

This fictional social protest tactic has recently been copied by dozens, or even hundreds of people from the recent occupy Wall Street movement; who have been seen wearing the 'mask of Guy Fawkes' as a public disguise to avoid persecution by the authorities. Recent media attention to this movement has intensified this reaction. (reference:http://theautomaticearth.blogspot.com/)

I believe this deletion was a direct act to sabatoge wikipedia,that was taken to stifle an alternative point of view that the deletor disagreed with. As such, I believe this deletion is biased and should be reviewed by a third party, to ensure neutrality. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added byRepent (talk • contribs) 6 November 2011

Well, your first place to go is the article talk page rather than here. The editor reverting your contribution indicated in his edit summary that material from blogspot.com isn't reliable (which it isn't, see WP:RS) and that it's just somebody's opinion. I suppose some mention of Guy Fawkes masks in the article might be called for, but it needs to be based on reliable sources and be presented in an encyclopedic manner. Also, constructions such as "direct act to sabatoge wikipedia" are not helpful. That is a fairly serious charge, you know. We don't talk like that here. Herostratus (talk) 05:00, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

I understand, though, you are wanting to contribute in good faith. When you're new, it can be a little bit rocky as you learn the ropes, and the best advice is to remain cool. I now see that there is already an exposition on the masks, but rather than in Guy Fawkes it is in the Gunpowder Plot in popular culture article, here: Guy Fawkes mask. As you can see, the material is restrained and descriptive, and well-referenced with multiple references to reliable sources such as the Guardian and the beeb. This is the sort of effect we are trying for, here. It takes time to get in the swing of things. Under your inspiration I did add a sentence re the masks to the Guy Fawkes article, and thank you for the inspiration. Cheers,Herostratus (talk) 05:28, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Moved from WP:Requests for comment/Request board Coastside (talk) 13:43, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Addition of V for Vendetta Reference

I have included some information here on the "V" character in V for Vendetta, his choice by Alan Moore, and his relationship to Guy Fawkes. Also a note about Anonymous commemorating Guy Fawkes day of death. It would seem apt some mention of it is made on a page about Guy Fawkes! Deathlibrarian (talk) 07:28, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

This is a tired argument that will gain no traction. Please study this talk page's archives. Parrot of Doom 09:19, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Reinserting this section. Please do not remove until the issues is discussed here on the talk page. Cheers Deathlibrarian (talk) 10:45, 7 November 2012 (UTC) I have checked the archives, there seems to be a solid case for inserting a reference to V for Vendetta into this article, and ample number of authors who have supported it. However it was not included. Deathlibrarian (talk) 10:55, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

I apologise for cutting in here but I have two points to make One. Concerning the masks made popular by the film V for Vendetta which I have not seen.. That mask ,worn by an anarchistic type figure wanting to destroy the British Parliament is an almost exact copy of the masks available around November 5th ,sold in newsagents etc when I was a child (I was ten in 1945) Some of these original type masks are probably still around.The main difference is the colouring which in the originals was more red and florid.The V for Vendetta mask is also slightly more stylised in its features. Two. The article ignores a feature of Guy Fawkes night /day etc which was that many children boys and girls took a dolls pram or real but old pram or handcart and made an effigy of Guy Fawkes of their own,dressing him up in old clothes etc They then went around the streets stopping people and saying --'Penny for the Guy Sir/Madame' etc This was of course a form of begging so the practice was found among poorer children but not entirely and many children from middle class homes did this ,to the horror of their parents.There was great competition to make the most realistic Guy and the whole thing was planned weeks in advance and was really a great adventure.Interestingly its one activity where the girls played as great a role as the boys Penny for the Guy Mister could be heard up to the seventies..it seems to have died out about then becoming too unsophisticated for the new young and also because of the fear of children talking to strangers that developed about that time Its interesting that in Eastern Europe at about this same time of the year,,small villages have similar scarecrow /effigy figures life size standing in front of peoples doors with pumpkins etc laid out before them. There is I am sure again competition to create the best figure. I do not know the origins or reason for this custom but its interesting that it takes place at about the same time as the British Guy Fawkes night suggesting these events have links throughout Europe and really go back to a symbolic offering to the spirit of winter that it will not be too hard and cruel

I would like to be clear that my editing of the section to remove unWikiness in a featured article was in no way support for inclusion of the content: I edited it because it seemed to have been written by a non-native speaker of English, and I didn't remove it altogether only because I noticed that its inclusion was in dispute. I too have checked the talk page archives, and am totally convinced by the arguments made there that V for Vendetta is in no way part of the "legacy of Guy Fawkes", and neither is the Guy Fawkes mask. --RobertG ♬ talk 12:23, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Tah for the rewrite - much more concise. Deathlibrarian (talk) 12:36, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi – I have asked in my edit comments to please refer to this talk section after the removal of my inclusion of a reference to V for vendetta, however there is no discussion here and with the ongoing edit war over the inclusion of the reference I was banned for 3RR. As the edit warring editors won’t discuss it here, and so as to avoid further edit warring, seems my next step as per Wikipedia guidelines, is to open a WP:DR. Please comment here if you are interested in the topic.Deathlibrarian (talk) 22:06, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

There is an article on V for Vendetta and this isn't it. The relationship between this article and the character or mask featured in the other is far too tenuous to be worth even a mention here. In exactly the same way, if you examine the article on Ice hockey, you'll find a complete absence of any mention of Friday the Thirteenth there. --RexxS (talk) 02:38, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Not sure how the parallels are similar. One is the relationship between a sport, and a character in a movie wearing an item of sporting gear. The other is an historical figure, and a character in a film based on and representative of him, with the storyline also reflective of the character. There is more to the relationship between the two than simply the fact character “V” in V for Vendetta wore a mask. If Hockey was a sport where people called Jason wore Hockey masks and attacked each other with Machetes…then it would be a good parallel!...and probably something I’d watch 

The character of V is not "based on" Guy Fawkes; the character of V has adopted a Fawksian appearance. The mask is not a 'Guy Fawkes mask', it is a 'V For Vendetta' mask. And Guy Fawkes never wore a mask, so far as I am aware. Does not belong in this article. Cheers Keristrasza (talk) 09:06, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

The mask is a Guy Fawkes mask, it's based in the pappier-mâché masks sold for Guy Fawkes night, decades before V for Vendetta was drawn. For centuries they have been placed on the face of the doll that was going to be burned at the bonfire, and some people wore the mask on the street. Our article Guy Fawkes mask is centered only in the recent usage of the mask, and leaves out all the historical root. I have place a {{Recentism}} tag on that article.

V didn't simply adopt his outside aspect. V has based his life around his idealized view of Guy Fawkes, and the plot revolves around blowing the Parliament like Fawkes did, and honoring his memory. The real Fawkes had very different motivations, of course, but V is convinced that Fawkes would have been proud of him.... --Enric Naval (talk) 11:43, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I know exactly what inspired Alan Moore's mask: I was wearing them long before you were even born. The link to Guy Fawkes mask is sufficient. I disagree that these are specifically "Guy Fawkes" masks; they are tie-in merchandise, exact copies of the mask worn by V, a movie/comic book anarchist, marketed and sold as such, and worn to imitate and/or represent the movie/comic book anarchist V, not to imitate or represent or commemorate the historical personage of Guy Fawkes. Your analysis of V's character, incidentally, seems to be OR, and not backed up by anything I've seen written by the character's creator, Alan Moore. Moore himself has spoken of it as "the V for Vendetta mask... a multipurpose icon [adopted] by the emerging global protest movements." (my emphasis.) Keristrasza (talk) 12:53, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I see now that you are saying, basically, "the character V wears, within the fictional universe of V4V, a Guy Fawkes mask." Yes, I agree on that specific point alone. All subsequent use of the mask as political protest symbol etc (as the proposed section by Deathlibrarian - in Re: Biased removal of submitted comment! - above reads) is not connected to G.F. Keristrasza (talk) 14:00, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

The representation of the historical character in this film should be referenced in this (or some) article for Guy Fawkes, in the same sort of way it is for any historical figure that is represented on film. Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:12, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

This article has a Legacy section with links highlighted to the articles on Gunpowder Plot in popular culture and Guy Fawkes mask. That's enough. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:01, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

To put it simply, the wearing of Guy Fawkes masks as a means of protest, is a social phenomonenon, just the same as people burning effigies of Guy Fawkes is. Certainly the effigies may have been burnt for longer - but they are both social phenomena that relate to Guy Fawkes and *BOTH* should be referred to in this article. The masks are Guy Fawkes masks, not "V for Vendetta masks....in fact, there is no such thing as a "V for Vendetta Mask". As Alan Moore wrote in "Behind the Painted Smile"

"Re. The script: While I was writing this, I had this idea about the hero, which is a bit redundant now we've got (can't read this next bit) but nonetheless . . . I was thinking, why don't we portray him as a resurrected Guy Fawkes, complete with one of those papier mache masks, in a cape and conical hat? He'd look really bizarre and it would give Guy Fawkes the image he's deserved all these years. We shouldn't burn the chap every Nov. 5th but celebrate his attempt to blow up Parliament!"

The moment I read these words, two things occurred to me. Firstly, Dave was obviously a lot less sane than I hitherto believed him to be, and secondly, this was the best idea I'd ever heard in my entire life. All of the various fragments in my head suddenly fell into place, united behind the single image of a Guy Fawkes mask. " So here, Alan Moore clearly refers to it as a Guy Fawkes mask.

The relationship between Guy Fawkes and the social phenomena of the masks worn in the protests is clear. Deathlibrarian (talk) 15:50, 9 November 2012 (UTC) Full text here: Moore, Alan "Behind the Painted Smile" http://www.freewebs.com/vforvendettagallery/BehindTheSmile/behindthesmile.htm Deathlibrarian (talk) 15:59, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

There is a perfectly good article on Guy Fawkes in Popular culture - use of the masks in protests doesn't really tell us anything about Guy Fawkes the historical person. If it did, I'd expect to see it mentioned in scholarly works on the subject. Most usages of a historical person in films or books do not get coverage in those person's articles - it's just that simple. You need secondary sourcing of some depth to tie these masks into the main Fawkes article. I'm not seeing it. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:57, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

(ec) My point exactly. The burning of effigies *also* doesn't tell us anything about the historical character of Guy Fawkes either, however it is mentioned. They are both social phenomena connected to Guy Fawkes, and both belong in this article. Just because one is more recent doesn't makes it any less mentionable. In terms of sources, I have quoted Alan Moore himself above discussing the Guy Fawkes mask, and given the reference.Deathlibrarian (talk) 16:11, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

No. The wearing of V For Vendetta masks as a means of protest is a social phenomonenon. And not connected at all with Guy Fawkes, apart from the fact that the mask they have chosen - that of an anarchist in a comic book/movie - was originally based upon a Guy Fawkes mask. Which Alan Moore specifically refers to as the V For Vendetta mask in this piece for the BBC here. I don't disagree that back in the 1980s Alan Moore David Lloyd drew the character of V wearing a stylised Guy Fawkes mask. I disagree that the mask now used in political protests is a "Guy Fawkes mask" - it is a V mask. Most of those fucking idiots wearing it have never even heard of Guy Fawkes. So yes: Guy Fawkes masks exist, hence a link to Guy Fawkes mask. And no, Guy Fawkes masks are not worn as a means of protest, V masks are. It just happens to be the case that V masks are based on a stylised version of a Guy Fawkes mask. And have no place in this article. Keristrasza (talk) 16:14, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Alan Moore explicitly calls it "the V mask". Just saying.92.40.108.16 (talk) 16:06, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

And Alan Moore specifically calls it the V For Vendetta mask here. So, cool story, bro. Keristrasza (talk) 16:18, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

92.40.108.16 and Keristrasza Even cooler story here, Bro.

"All of the various fragments in my head suddenly fell into place, united behind the single image of a Guy Fawkes mask"

Moore, Alan "Behind the Painted Smile" http://www.freewebs.com/vforvendettagallery/BehindTheSmile/behindthesmile.htmDeathlibrarian (talk) 17:14, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

The key word there is "secondary" - Alan Moore (the creator of the mask, right?) is a primary source for the information. For coverage of it, we need secondary sources that find it compelling enough that it ties directly to GF and is as important or MORE important than the other usages of GF in popular culture throughout the last 400 years since GF died. If we only cover the masks here, we give undue weight to the them in relation to the whole entirety of GF's usage in popular culture for the last 400 years. The burning of effigies has gone on for almost 400 years - that's a significant impact on popular culture. The use of a mask derived from a film derived from a comic book in the last 20 years is much less significant than the effigy usage over 400 years. Treating the mask with the same amount of coverage as the effigies would be recentism. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:11, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I completely agree with Ealdgyth. I don't think under Wikipedia Guidelines it should be given the same weight as the burning of effigies (clearly a wider phenomena and longstanding tradition). I'm just saying they should both be mentioned, but yes treating the Guy Fawkes mask the same would be recentism. Deathlibrarian (talk) 16:27, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

It deserves no mention because it is entirely unconnected to Guy Fawkes. A few years ago some people wore a V mask because of a 4Chan meme. It looked cool and funny and edgy. The end. Absolutely sweet-fuck-all to do with Guy Fawkes. Keristrasza (talk) 16:33, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

WHO are you replying to here? Please read Help:Introduction to talk pages/Layout for help in learning how to reply to folks so that other editors will know who is replying to whom. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:29, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Keristrasza Apart from the fact that I have posted Alan Moore talking about the mask being tied to Guy Fawkes, you may also want to read this excerpt describing a protest: LONDON (AP) ” Several hundred protesters wearing masks have gathered outside the British Parliament to mark Guy Fawkes night. The protesters Monday were supporters of Anonymous, a loosely-organized movement of cyber rebels and activists. Anonymous draws much of its iconography from the story of Fawkes, and the anti-hero's ghostly white mask is a staple of the online movement's demonstrations. The date of the latest protest, Nov. 5, coincides with that of Fawkes' failed 1605 gunpowder plot to blow up the House of Lords. There were fireworks and bonfires throughout much of England to mark the anniversary. BIESECKER, MICHAEL "Anonymous movement protests on Guy Fawkes night." AP Top News PackageAP NewsMonitor Collection, EBSCOhost (accessed November 9, 2012).The Associated, Press. 2012. Deathlibrarian (talk) 16:39, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Good grief. Absolutely meaningless space-filler from some ill-informed hack. "Anonymous draws much of its iconography from the story of Fawkes..." WTF? He's clutching at even fewer straws than you are. Keristrasza (talk) 16:46, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Keristrasza Dude...they held the protest, wearing Guy Fawkes masks, on Guy Fawkes night.Is there a theme here? 17:07, 9 November 2012 (UTC)Deathlibrarian (talk) 17:08, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

And this has been now happening for how many years dude? What was that? Just this year. Hey! That's just fantabulous, let's get this rich tradition recorded in the Guy Fawkes page immediately! I mean, dude, this has been firmly established in London for, oh, over a week now! Keristrasza (talk) 17:13, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

KeristraszaSure....except that that there was a "Guy Fawkes Flashmob" protest wearing Guy Fawkes masks and exploding fake gunpowder back in 2009..... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8065335.stm 17:40, 9 November 2012 (UTC)Deathlibrarian (talk) 17:43, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Sure... except that was a localised, specific, anti-Parliament demonstration involving gunpowder, the Palace of Westminster, symbolic blowing up of the Palace and symbolic Guy Fawkes... A specific use of Fawkesian symbolism. They could hardly have dressed as Ronald-freaking-Macdonald and made the same point, could they? Keristrasza (talk) 17:48, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Keristrasza you said that Alan Moore didn't connect the mask to Guy Fawkes and I've given you a reference where he does. Then you said there was no connection between the protesters and Guy Fawkes and I gave you a reference for that. Then you said that protest was too recent, so I've given you a protest that was older. You are now saying that protest was too specific!. Why am I getting the opinion that what ever I provide is not going to convince you?Deathlibrarian (talk) 22:09, 9 November 2012 (UTC) 22:07, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

No, I said that I know where Alan Moore & David Lloyd got the idea for the mask from. My point is that the mask used in public protests since 2008 is not worn to represent, imitate or commemorate Guy Fawkes, but is based on a 4chan meme and imitation/representation of the character of V. Where was the mask used as a means/symbol of protest in 1982, after it first appeared in v4v? Or 1983? How about the Miners' Strike in 84/85? Did it turn up at the Poll Tax Riots in 1990? No, it didn't appear anywhere. Not in the US, not in Canada, not even in England, the most likely place for it to turn up... Then they released the movie in March 2006. Did this symbol of public protest appear at that year's immigration reform protests? How about the January 27, 2007 anti-war protest? September 15, 2007 anti-war protest? No. It finally popped up in 2008 worn by 4chan outside some religious places. What exactly were they wearing it for? To demonstrate that they were fervent Roman Catholics? That they were monarchists? That they wanted to overthrow the legitimate monarch and install a puppet on the throne? Or was it to show that they were from 4chan, knew the EFG meme, didn't want their faces photographed, and thought V looked cool? Where exactly was Guy Fawkes in all that? It then became the height of protest fashion. Hey, 4chan wore it and it looked cool, let's copy them! Anonymous organised a protest at the Houses of Parliament this year; did they call it Operation Guy Fawkes? Operation Gunpowder Plot? No, they called it Operation Vendetta. By all means, link to Guy Fawkes mask from Guy Fawkes. But what you are proposing is blatant recentism and undue. Keristrasza (talk) 23:58, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

• I see that we still have Paul Kruger and Margaret Thatcher in the section about Guy Fawkes' legacy. To exclude V for Vendetta while maintaining insignificant associations like those is absurd and blatant prejudice. As an example of a source which explicitly makes the connection between the historical Fawkes and the latest manifestations in the movie and protests, see Margo DeMello (2012), "Fawkes, Guy", Faces Around the World: A Cultural Encyclopedia of the Human Face, ISBN 9781598846171. Warden (talk) 19:36, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Warden - Yep I agree. 22:09, 9 November 2012 (UTC)Deathlibrarian (talk) 22:15, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

• When someone presents a reliable, high-quality source that includes a significant mention of V for Vendetta or the Guy Fawkes mask, then it will appear in this article. Until that happens, it never will. And if Wikipedia's policies remain unchanged, that, is that. Parrot of Doom 00:35, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Parrot AP Reuters, BBC and Alan Moore himself are completely suitable sources, as per Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources..in particular discussing news reporting of recent events. If you can find Wikipedia policy that says they should not be accepted, please identify it for me. Thanks. Deathlibrarian (talk) 01:08, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

No, they are not. They simply don't know much about Fawkes, a trait you obviously share. Malleus's additions, however, appear to come from someone who does understand Fawkes's legacy, and that's why they can stay. Parrot of Doom 09:32, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

OK. In an effort to break this impasse I've added a little bit to address the iconography of Guy Fawkes, and the "usurpation" of his image by postmodern anarchists. Malleus Fatuorum 01:31, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Good one Malleus, thanks. I think that's a suitable reference in terms of weighting. Deathlibrarian (talk) 01:42, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Hopefully PoD agrees with you. The issue was always about putting V for Vendetta in a proper frame of reference that tells us something about Fawkes's legacy, not just including it as yet another piece of trivia. I think we've done that now with the postmodern anarchist connection, and hopefully we can now put this issue to bed. Malleus Fatuorum 02:58, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes hopefully all the people contributing to this discussion agree....so far so good. I think your suggestion much better than lengthy mediation..they are not pretty! Yes I know what you mean about it fitting into the article, other articles have that hodge podge collection of connected facts that would not suit the way this is written. Good work on finding that article too, I had been hunting for something like that, but didn't see that one.Deathlibrarian (talk) 09:03, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Re: Biased removal of submitted comment!

As the main problem with the above content (which discusses Guy Fawkes and the Guy Fawkes mask as a symbol of protest) seems to be that it had inadequate references, I have located the references and re inserted the section, with slight modification. Deathlibrarian (talk) 02:08, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

When did the celebrations start?

Since Fawkes was arrested on 5th November 1605, surely the nationwide celebration of 5th November mentioned in the article could not have started until 1606? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.229.117 (talk) 18:11, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Bonfires were lit in the immediate aftermath of the plot's failure, but official observances were enforced by an Act of Parliament passed in the following months. Guy Fawkes Night gives more detail. Parrot of Doom 20:09, 4 November 2012 (UTC)