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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Billdanbury (talk | contribs) at 15:25, 19 December 2012 (→‎Layout). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


Huckabee et al reactions

Now that things are a little calmer, I think we should re-consider whether the assertions by Huckabee, Fischer and others (that their God had abandoned the schools because children are no longer forced to worship Him by government teachers) belong in the article, properly sourced and without the POV my sarcasm conveys. I would say that the political backlash indicates that it is notable; certainly far more so than some pro sports team's "tribute". --Orange Mike | Talk 21:45, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

They are (as individuals) by themselves not related/notable to the incident (such as CT politicians etc). Their views themselves are WP:FRINGE, and the "backlash" against those particular statements seems very temporary - the stories have moved on. I don't think it is notable enough for inclusion in this article, but if we develop a larger spin-off "reactions" article with a lower bar for entry, then it would be appropriate there. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:50, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we should, at least not now. Their statements lack substance and have no demonstrable impact on public policy. Contrariwise, I do think that the reactions/statements from the NRA are significant.
I appreciated the comment in your edit summary when you removed the sports team tribute. Much better than what I was about to write. - MrX 21:54, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Like the WBC whackos, wouldn't support putting this in wouldn't add to knowledge of the article. Just more talking heads yadda-yadda. Btw don't really think you are summarizing what he said accurately.HammerFilmFan (talk) 22:10, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am summarizing what I hear; but then, I'm an evangelical Quaker historian who has observed that mandatory, government-imposed generic acts of surface piety seems to work as an innoculation (on the "killed virus" model) against any actual religious impulse. My God is not that petty: He never left the schools; sorry about theirs. --Orange Mike | Talk 22:28, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I want to say yes, probaby based on similar thoughts as have led OM to propose it. But tempting as it is, the typical preemptive rightwing backlash has no place in the article unless this is being discussed somewhere above the gossosphere. --213.196.212.146 (talk) 22:12, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Local and state official response...yes. Media hounds...no.```Buster Seven Talk 22:16, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There's nothing else, in your opinion? Only "media hounds" and "official sources"? I'd say an article or two in higher-profile news outlets would perfectly suffice in my book. And even the media hounds from Salon come pretty close. --213.196.212.146 (talk) 22:34, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Seperate article? Fine. Here? Not so fine. ```Buster Seven Talk 00:33, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's an ideological response, not an encyclopedic one. If the rightwing nutbag remarks are being prominently discussed in connection with the shooting, we will mention them in the article. Even if you don't like it. --87.78.22.14 (talk) 02:23, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Huckabee's ignorance-and-superstition-based comments have absolutely no relevance. And in fact, the kids had just finished doing the Pledge of Allegiance. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:38, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per the discussion above, I would imagine a new article will be created about the aftermath, and think it is best to wait and add it there. There is going to be so much grandstanding that if we put it all here, even the stuff with lots of sources, it will dwarf the rest of the article. By the first of the year, I'm guessing some experienced editor will have a copy in their user space ready to serve as a start (that was a hint...) where it would be within the scope, appropriate, and much easier to balance the POV. Mixing it with the horror that was the actual event is undue and too soon as the aftermath is just getting started. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:46, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Aftermath

We are currently not documenting a whole raft of material pertaining to the aftermath, while in many cases I agree with the specifics I am a little worried by this as a blanket approach. It is certainly valid to say that such-and-such a point is not significant to the article, but we are past the point, I think, where Aftermath of Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting can be considered non-notable - indeed the majority of the article, or close to it, is already about the aftermath. The problem with suggesting that we delay this stuff is that it in itself skews our coverage. There is, for example massive coverage of the funerals, comments by parents etc. While we should not go into great detail about these events we should be reporting that the coverage is extensive. In fact reporting on media coverage is one of the things we seem to do well. The "aftermath" article should probably be spun off when there is sufficient material, rather than written separately, partly because we do not know now what will be the significant and notable parts, though obviously we suspect gun control. Rich Farmbrough, 00:34, 19 December 2012 (UTC).[reply]

Remember: we are an encyclopedia, not a news source. Let the media cover the fine details. We need to consider what will be important about this shooting to a reader ten, twenty, one hundred years down the road. It certainly won't be the individual funerals or all the explicit opinions made about the case. The only trend that seems to be coming out of this right now is gun control reform, and that is a significant effect. If you want to cover the other aspects in detail, Wikinews is thataways, and we'll be happy to link to those articles. --MASEM (t) 00:58, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, I've been thinking along the same lines as Rich Farmbrough but had held off on creating an article as it seems most of the reaction/aftermath was words, and not action. If you look at a site like www.cnn.com the left sidebar has
  1. Listen: The birth of Newtown United
  2. NRA breaks its silence over shooting
  3. Gun industry faces uncertain future
  4. Lanza's guns | Was your gun banned?
  5. NRA laid groundwork against new laws
  6. Gun control: 'This one feels different'
  7. Concealed gun bill vetoed in Mich.
  8. Opinion: Two ideas all seem to agree on
  9. Ticker: Teachers w/ guns OK, says gov
  10. New details surface in investigation
  11. Lanza friend struggles to understand
  12. Police: Kids lived through hell Police: Kids lived through hell
  13. Opinion: Don't say it was God's will
  14. Beginning to heal | How to help
  15. Killer's barber: His mom did the talking
  16. Friends: Mom was nothing like son
  17. Can Facebook posts get you arrested?
  18. 11 small ways to help Newtown HLN
  19. Photos: Shooting | Reaction | Funerals
There's 19 articles today with the gun debate a significant portion of them. It seems we are getting enough "aftermath" that's not directly related to the shooting that we could use a separate article. --Marc Kupper|talk 01:48, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The reason for the blanket approach is because the aftermath is so new, it is hard to sort the wheat from the chaff. Rich, we both know that an aftermath article will be forthcoming, and I've recommended that some editor start one in user space, to go live after the new year starts. Right now, we can make a list of interesting facts, but it would not have context. A few days is just too soon for real analysis to have taken place. This article will probably have very little of it since it is about the event, only a summary of the more notable (I would place my bet on legislation for example), and the bulk in the spin off. At this time. You know its an "enccyclopedia vs. news" issue at play, and yes, we are likely being a little conservative out of necessity and prudence. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:50, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, I have no idea on exactly when the aftermath article should go live, but there have been so many news mistakes, user space is still the best place for at least a couple more days. I can't guess what tomorrow will bring. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:54, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Iranian reaction

Apparently, Iran's state-run news service now claims that Israel was behind the shooting. A harebrained and offensive conspiracy theory for sure, but considering that it's actually a foreign government making the claim (and a very prominent one in the region at that), does that make it notable or worth mentioning? LonelyBoy2012 (talk) 22:44, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Meh, this falls into "normal and expected". Perhaps in an aftermath article, but it isn't really related to the event. With all due respect to the Iranian government, is anyone here surprised at this proclamation? No different than Westboro Baptist Church....typical response so not notable. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:49, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Responding to the OP - If you read the Press TV article the source of this claim is "Michael Harris" who is described in the Press TV article as "a former Republican candidate for governor of Arizona and GOP campaign finance chairman." The Michael Harris article on Wikipedia is a disambiguation page with none of the people listed seeming to match the Michael Harris we are interested in.

A check on Google News finds that apparently only the Iranians were able to detect Mr. Harris's "internationally televised news broadcast."

Shalom Life has a rebuttal to the Iranians. They describe Harris in less flattering terms as "The journalist, Michael Harris, is the financial editor at Veterans Today a website known more for its anti-Semitic and anti-Israel conspiracy theories, than journalism of any kind."

Michael Harris is probably Mike Harris who is listed as a Financial Editor, one of the Speakers Bureau, and one of the Radio Hosts for Veterans Today.[2] I learned that Veterans Today banned links to Wikipedia last year which is probably why they needed to shake the Press TV tree to get our attention.[3] --Marc Kupper|talk 01:11, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Crazy talk with a political motive from an irrational, brutal regime. No relevance to the article.HammerFilmFan (talk) 01:37, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If Iran said "We feel your pain and want to help rebuild the school", that would be unexpected and notewothy. Again, in an article on the aftermath, which is very likely to happen in a couple of weeks, this would probably fit it, but not on the article for the event itself. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:45, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Common rhetoric from Iran. Really no need to include the trivial statement. -- LuK3 (Talk) 02:37, 19 December 2012

(UTC)

I like the way you forget about all the times Israel has actualy done this to other nations, including it's "allies", such as when they forged european passports to commit a murder causing 20 innocent people to be framed, and do we really need to talk about the USS Liberty incident? Just because Iran says something, it has to be bad right? Fucking morons the lot of you if you think this isn't something they would do or at least consider.

New claims

Be on the look out. The latest claim is that Adam "snapped" because he learned that his mother was about to commit him to a psych ward. See: School gunman Adam Lanza may have snapped over fears mother was going to send him to psychiatric facility. If/when it gets reported by reliable sources, it offers good information on "motive" for this article. Also, there is some info in there about Adam resenting the school kids because his mom "loved them more than she loved him", evidenced (in his mind, at least) by the fact that she was about to commit him. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 22:47, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We have to be careful if this were to be considered. Keep in mind, the media has screwed the pooch with this event many times, so it would been to be covered in at least a couple of very reliable sources to even be considered, and only if it was from some authority, not just speculation that this was the cause. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:52, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 22:54, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, looking that article from the Post, I wouldn't publish that here. The son of the local preacher is the source? Not an authority. They are filling column inches. Speculation at this point. If it was from the police, etc. it would be different but this is too thin for an encyclopedia at this time. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:56, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. But it does mention that a court petition was filed. So, if that does indeed exist, it will be easy enough to find. Also, the source is not only the son of the local preacher, but he also claims to be a family friend of the Lanza's. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 23:24, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The nypost.com article cited by the OP mentions Fox News. Fear of being committed may have caused Connecticut gunman to snap seems to be the Fox News article. It looks like Fox attempted to confirm the court filing but was unable to do so. They report confirming with law enforcement that "Lanza's anger at his mother over plans" was one of the things they are looking at.
The article also shows a recent connection between the Lanzas and the school. Most interesting, particularly if you consider the possibility that Adam was spying on his mother's e-mails. --Marc Kupper|talk 01:34, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That is the key, verification. We need to be extraordinarily careful. You have to remember that the media is being fast and loose with their claims, we don't have that luxury. If we had a confirmation that the paperwork was filed, then that would be worth exploring, but we still need to be careful to not be too absolute in our statement. I know this sounds a little paranoid, but real people's lives, not just the deceased, are affected so we are obligated to be very careful. If it was filed, I would imagine we will have something that really verifies this soon, and something to source it properly with. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:43, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I thought about this more and agree with Dennis. Fox New's source is a single person and that they have not been able to corroborate any of that person's claims. --Marc Kupper|talk 02:12, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment, There is nothing we can do about human nature and this topic exposure will be milked by every opportunistic little person across the map. In fact I just stumbled upon on a "scoop" from some tin foil hat crazy that calims that this was a kill squad.(I wonder how much time it will take someone to post it as fact) So I suggest to wait for confirmation for various claims and exclusives, especially from controversial sources, after all wikipedia is not a tabloid. --Mor2 (talk) 03:32, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Illinois State Rifle Association comment

I removed this POVish statement from the Illinois State Rifle Association, as well as the sentence immediately after it which is no longer true:

Richard Pearson, executive of the Illinois State Rifle Association, told the Chicago Sun-Times, "The problem we have is a gun-free zone. We have a gun-free zone around a school. Every crazy person knows that. And so, the gun-free zone is like a magnet for the lunatics. He or she knows there won’t be any resistance there". Pearson also said, "Had there been a teacher who was armed, this wouldn’t have happened".[1] Gun rights activists declined to comment, with all but one choosing not to appear on talk shows the first Sunday after the shootings.[2]

Content such as this risks taking this article about the shooting in a very political direction. I think it would be better for a content fork article that discusses the array of reactions that arise from this shooting. - MrX 01:15, 19 December 2012 (UTC) - MrX 01:15, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

NRA's statement is appropriate; this one is definitely not. --MASEM (t) 01:20, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's just one guy's opinion, so it doesn't really belong. He's not wrong, though. I saw someone on The View the other day, obviously a liberal-leaning show, and the guy (I think it was a Cuomo) said that schools need to arm themselves to keep these characters away. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:08, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Excessive detail

I'm trying to rein in Bookworm857158367 (talk · contribs), who in my opinion is adding way too much detail that does not pertain to the development of the shooting. I'll say it again: not every person's actions during the events needs to be tracked. See my reverts here and here. Drmies (talk) 03:05, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm inclined to agree. We don't need this to turn into the Columbine article, which is like a doctoral dissertation of everything that happened. Go Phightins! 03:07, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Deja vu. Perhaps some polite notices should be placed on some editor's talk pages since they don't seem to be reading this talk page. - MrX 03:15, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I did leave a note (hopefully a polite one) mentioning this discussion; I'll do so again. Drmies (talk) 03:20, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A quick and informal RfC on (lead) teacher

OK, I'm copying this from the talk page of David Levy (talk · contribs). I'd like a quick consensus on whether or not we should include in the list of victims that Hammond was a lead teacher rather than just a teacher. David (correct me if I summarize incorrectly) says it's a minor detail that messes with the layout, the IP thinks that it's an important enough detail--and for now I tend to agree with them.

From David Levy's talk page

Hi David--I'm going to undo this one. Column width is important, but she is more important. Plus, she just got the promotion. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 02:26, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the note. It isn't a big deal either way, but I believe that our goal is to describe the staff members' basic roles. I don't doubt that "lead teacher" is a promotion over "teacher", but I don't see how the distinction is relevant to the shooting.
I'd never heard of the title before, and from the information that I was able to find, a lead teacher is simply a teacher with a few additional administrative responsibilities that one would associate with a vice principal anyway. So I don't see how including "lead" enhances readers' understanding of her job functions. Regardless, we mention it in the article's body. —David Levy 02:51, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
She recently got promoted from teacher to lead teacher.[4][5][6] Actually, all four of the elementary schools in the district have a Lead Teacher. It's an administrative role and you're right that they're associated like vice principals, even though they actually are not vice principals. If you hover on the Parents tab for any of the those four schools, you'll see a link to the Lead Teacher page. But I'm sure that however the two of you decide to deal with this in the article will be great. --76.189.123.142 (talk) 03:11, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I was asked to look into it and I wouldn't have thought much of it (I'm not in secondary ed) if it weren't for the article (linked above) that points out that she just got the position. Tell you what--I'm going to copy this to the talk page, we can get a quick consensus one way or the other. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 03:18, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good. Yeah, each of the four elementary schools have a principal and a lead teacher. No vice princpals, even though they're treated like vice principals. I'll stay out of that discussion and allow the two of you to make the call. You're the experts. --76.189.123.142 (talk) 03:19, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If there are no vice principals, why is she described as one? Perhaps that's what should be removed. —David Levy 03:23, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Your point is very valid, David. I agree with you that vice principal should simply be removed. The lead teachers at the four schools are the 2nd in command and so are looked at and thought of as vice principals, so there's no doubt that's how it ended up in some sources. But there are actually no VPs. Btw, the Danbury News-Times cite I included above is the local major newspaper for the Sandy Hook/Newtown area, and it's one of the ones that verifies her title of lead teacher and specifies that she was recently promoted.Here it is again. --76.189.123.142 (talk) 03:28, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that she was promoted, and I'm sure that it was a significant career achievement. I just don't believe that it's relevant to the shooting or that its inclusion enhances readers' understanding of her role at the school. (Because the additional responsibilities are of the same sort that one would associate with a vice principal, we convey little about her job functions that isn't already conveyed by that title's inclusion.) —David Levy 03:23, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your responses welcome

  • May as well include that she was the lead teacher in my opinion. My elementary school had a lead teacher who pretty much acted like a vice principal. I don't see how including the factoid hurts, and it could help...I honestly could go either way, but it does no harm to include it, and it could help someone better understand her role. Go Phightins! 03:22, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Listing the roles are OK I guess. But vice principal/lead teacher? Let's choose one. The table has excess white space because of that one entry. While we're at it, we should move the three footnote citations that are next to the table's title to the very bottom of the table, as we do with some infoboxes. - MrX 03:31, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Based on the above discussion, it appears that the school has no vice principal (and that Hammond has been referred to as such because it's more or less the same as lead teacher), so that title should be removed instead. —David Levy 03:35, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • It should appear as lead teacher, but I think it's a de facto V.P. Go Phightins! 03:39, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, that seems to be the case. So "vice principal" is redundant. —David Levy 03:42, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Right, it should just say she was the lead teacher. Go Phightins! 03:43, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, the lead teachers are treated like, and act like, vice principals since they are the second-in-command at their schools, but they are not actually vice principals. If one cite is going to be used, I strongly suggest using this one from the Danbury Sun-Times because it's the local major newspaper for the Sandy Hook/Newtown area and even specifies that she was recently promoted to the position. --76.189.123.142 (talk) 03:49, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • As someone who has worked in public schools, I think the designation "lead teacher" *is* a telling one. Both rhetorically and institutionally, that title foregrounds the role of "teacher" in ways that a duties-based description ("assists the principal", eg) of a position does not. One might expect a "principal" to assume responsibility for all that goes on in a school, but I don't think that assumption holds true for a "lead teacher". We'll never know the thinking that took place at Sandy Hook that morning, but to me it seems logical that a "principal" might feel (and act out of) a different set of responsibilities and expectations than those that motivate a "lead teacher". So to me, the specificity of the title "lead teacher" certainly IS worth preserving. And for me, "recently elected" or "newly appointed" seems less materially relevant to a neutral POV. --Kurt B. Drtheuth (talk) 04:27, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Perpetrator

I realize that people pushing to get an article for the shooter, but I would like to reaffirm my request to trim down the Perpetrator section here. I find the current state, where we have 4 lines about the victims, mostly about the process of their identification and bodies. While the shooter get his "sad" life story memorized here, insulting.--Mor2 (talk) 03:49, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, if we have the shooter picture, I'll appreciate if someone can upload one for the victims. Maybe something like this[7] --Mor2 (talk) 04:15, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Well, as sad as it may be, there are good reasons for why the one gets more attention than the others, pace Morgan Freeman. It's the gunman's actions, history, background that led to these events, not the actions and lives of the victims. It's in that sense also that his actions etc. are relevant here and worth explaining. Drmies (talk) 04:29, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NOT#MEMORIAL. Perps get attention because of the criminal psychology of the act and to try to understand how to prevent or predict in the future. While it is sad for the victims, from an encyclopedic stand point we cannot "glorify" them any further. --MASEM (t) 04:32, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And yet this exactly a MEMORIAL. This article is about the shooting, not about the shooter. When we get more information, about his motives we can open a section about that with professional commentary, but all the current life story is irrelevant to the shooting.("His parents had married on June 6, 1981" - so what?!)--Mor2 (talk) 05:49, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is anticipated (outlined in other sections) that Andy's bio will be moved to a separate article, we are only waiting until the reporting dust has settled and we won't be subject to misinformation. In that thought, giving Andy's history is not a memorial as is more trying to explain the lifestyle that this person had that, in light of any other information, might give the reader an idea of why the crime was committed. If that coverage started to turn sympathetic, then yes, that starts getting into MEMORIAL territory. Besides, in the cases of the teachers and staff that sacrificed themselves to cover the children, they are written in the article as "heroes" to a degree, but that also isn't a memorial. --MASEM (t) 07:16, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reactions, why the Gun control section

Its just another reaction, why the special heading? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 05:11, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I feel like gun control is a very specific reaction. Gun Control debate should probably be it's own section with reactions related to gun control and any aftermath related to guncontrol included. Ryan Vesey 05:23, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not at the present time. One paragraph that splits off one viewpoint (which we agree should be included in some high level summary) doesn't need to be called out like that. Again, once dust settles, maybe. --MASEM (t) 05:27, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it is a specific reaction, but why should it stand out among others? Do you feel that there should be a "Mental health" section? I've heard or read no end of news reports about the perpetrator's metal state which has led to discussions of the availability of free mental health services among others. The same goes for the issue of "school security" and "parenting standards". Do these deserve separate sections as well? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 05:31, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Gun control is easily the most widely discussed reaction. Mental health is up there and might deserve it's own section as well. Ryan Vesey 05:34, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that's its widely discussed, but I'd have a hard time calling it "the most" out of the many I've heard. But now we're just comparing anecdotal experiences, not discussing what should be in the article based on verifiable facts or data. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 05:43, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We've been through this before. Gun control is obvious to include because, well, duh, guns were involved. The mental health angle has not been a proven connection - there's tons of speculation about this but no official or medical professional attached to the investigation has asserted that Andy's mental health was a contributing factor. Same for parental standards, school security, video games, lack of religion in schools, gay marriage, etc. etc. Gun control is presently the only reaction that is clearly not a contentious connection and that we actually have officials in high levels promising action on it. But because we don't know to what degree at this point, we shouldn't be calling it out any more than a single para in the reaction section. --MASEM (t) 05:41, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Works for me, its a matter of timing. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 05:47, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Improper edit

The article states: The National Rifle Association of America said it was shocked and saddened by the tragedy in Newtown, and is "prepared to offer meaningful contributions to help make sure this never happens again",[3] although it has in the past strenuously fought against all such measures.[4]

The last clause (which I have italicized in boldface) is inappropriate and inapplicable. Or, at the very least, it is not well-written to describe what it is attempting to describe. I deleted it, and the original poster reinstated it. A third editor also deleted it, and the original poster reinstated it. Consensus on this issue? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:16, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)This material that I removed is POV and unsupported by the source which says "For 138 years, the organization has fought any and all attempts -- real or perceived -- to deny Americans their Second Amendment right 'to keep and bear arms.'" Supporting the right to bear arms is widely different from fighting measures to keep violence from occurring. Ryan Vesey 05:17, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I concur with your take, it's inappropriate and inapplicable. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 05:18, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Agree-POV and draws a conclusion.HammerFilmFan (talk) 05:26, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know which WP policy it violates, but it seems to be inflammatory and biased given the context of the statement and article. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 05:21, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NPOV WP:SYNTHESIS Misrepresentation of sources (which would be borderline WP:VANDALISM, but that would involve assuming bad faith) I can't actually find a policy for misrepresentation of sources. Ryan Vesey 05:26, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
User Harrybilzer it would help if you call for TP discussion if you actually discussed. :-) HammerFilmFan (talk) 05:48, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Claim regarding Nancy Lanza/Doomsday Preppers

There's an odd statement in the Perpetrator section about Lanza's mother. It says, "According to her sister-in-law, she belonged to the Doomsday Preppers.[5][6]". The wikilink is to the site of a TV show called Doomsday Preppers. First, someone can not "belong to" a TV show. They could appear on the show, or be featured on the show, but they cannot belong to a show. Second, only one of the two cites even mention the term "Doomsday Prepper", but it's mentioned in a different context; it talks about Doomsday Preppers as a movement, not as a TV show. Does anyone know anything about this. Something just seems very wrong about this, particularly because it links to that TV show article even though there's no evidence that she was on the show. And the second cite says nothing about Doomsday Preppers at all, so why is it being used to support the sentence?? It just alludes to her being a survivalist. Also, are there concerns of BLP violations with this content? I noticed there's a hidden note also next to the text that says "NOTE: Marsha Lanza later changed her story and said Nancy had four guns or so and kept them for the sake of safety as a single woman." I just wanted to bring this up so some experienced editors can decide what to do with it. Thanks. --76.189.123.142 (talk) 05:40, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't crazy about it either as it is contradictory.HammerFilmFan (talk) 05:46, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I saw that at the same time as you. I modified it to say movement and link to survivalism. I don't know what the source is for that hidden note and will leave it to some other editors to make a decision on that issue. Ryan Vesey 05:44, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ryan, I think that was a good way of doing it. At least for now. But I think the second cite (CBS) needs to be removed because the sentence is claiming she's part of the Doomsday Preppers movement, but that cite does not say that at all. The first cite does. Do you think the editor who posted the sentence meant to wikilink to that TV show, or they just didn't realize where they were linking to? This is confusing. And does anyone know if the movement has anything to do with the show? In other words, is the show featuring people from that movement? I've never heard of the movement, nor is there an article about them. --76.189.123.142 (talk) 05:56, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'd heard of survivalists before, and I've heard of them called preppers. It is most likely that the person wikilinked Doomsday Preppers without following the links, not being aware that it went to the article for the show. The wikilink Preppers goes to survivalism. Ryan Vesey 06:00, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Doomsday Preppers says the TV show is about the doomsday preppers movement. It also says the show is "the highest-rated show in the history of the National Geographic Channel." Anyway, Ryan, I think you're probably right... the editor (and the first cite) were referring only to the movement, not the TV show which features people from the movement. Whew. --76.189.123.142 (talk) 06:02, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Prepper needs to be changed to Preppers (plural) in that sentence. The first cite says, "Doomsday Preppers movement". --76.189.123.142 (talk) 06:06, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I fixed it, I was originally going to rework it to say she was a doomsday prepper, but decided saying she was a member of the "Doomsday Preppers movement" stayed more true to the source. I forgot to restore the s. You've been helpful here, have you considered creating an account? There's some cool features for reading even like WP:POPUPS. Ryan Vesey 06:11, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Ryan. Great job. --76.189.123.142 (talk) 06:21, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Is ANY of this truly reliable reporting?HammerFilmFan (talk) 12:15, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you read the dailymail article which is the ultimate source of the claim, its full of tabloid sensational quotes all over the place. Additionally, if we are going to include that information, we should at least include the full quote, which talks about positive aspects of the Mother's life as well. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:46, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Killed/Wounded list

To whomever added the headings to the list (Perpetrator's mother, School staff, Students)... nice job. It looks good and makes sense. --76.189.123.142 (talk) 06:14, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The only thing I think looks bad is that for two of the children, the age is sandwiched between two cites (Madeleine Hsu and Ana Marquez-Greene). See below. That should be fixed so that the two cites are at the end, after the age.

--76.189.123.142 (talk) 06:14, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed, thanks again! Ryan Vesey 06:17, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Does anyone know why we have two citations for those two actually? Ryan Vesey 06:25, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Ryan (again)! You're on a roll. Looks like they are articles that feature those particular children, which I think is appropriate if that's the case. But if it's just two cites that show a list of all the names, then only one would be needed. --76.189.123.142 (talk) 06:26, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In the case of Madeline, it was the same ref twice. Ryan Vesey 06:34, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Nice catch! Yeah, it was the exact same page but from different newspapers, Greenwich Time and Connecticut Post (sister newspapers). --76.189.123.142 (talk) 06:35, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Too much detail on shooting timeline

This has been discussed before but in the archives, but I think there's general agreement we don't need excessive detail on the specifics / minute-by-minute movement within the event. We can let other resources provide those answers, but that is not ours to give in that much detail. (Those that might jump to the Columbine article should recognize that we also agree that one is far far far too details as well, and should not be used as an example). This again is maybe where Wikinews would be better to spell this out, and we can certainly link to that. --MASEM (t) 06:51, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I understand this was discussed earlier, but do we have a policy related to this issue? I'm of the opinion that we should provide as much information as we can on the event and that minute by minute material is both informative and encyclopedic. If nothing else, we need to provide a link to a page that has a minute by minute breakdown. Ryan Vesey 06:54, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
An encyclopedia is a tertiary work meant to summarize others - not a primary or secondary source work; just as we don't go into detailed plot summaries of fictional works, we should not go into detailed accounts of actual events. Basically, it starts putting undue coverage on the actual event when this article should cover all aspects, include responses and aftermath (the more important factors here). Again, Wikinews is well suited for the detailed accounts if someone wants to rewrite them there. --MASEM (t) 07:12, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Video Games

Lanza's use of certain video games is now getting focused coverage by RS media -- see, e.g., this Telegraph article. Someone might consider how best to sift it in.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:02, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No. Same with mental health. Until we have an official on the investigation that asserts a connection, it's speculation by talking heads. --MASEM (t) 07:08, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. This is just adding the kitchen sink.--Amadscientist (talk) 07:20, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Even if he did play Call of Duty, this is routine "Let's find something to blame" by the media.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 07:24, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Exeter, New Hampshire wikilink

In the first sentence of the Perpetrator section, can someone move the cite so it's not sandwiched in between the city and state. See below. The problem is that two wikilinks are being used (one for city and one for state), instead of just using one for both (Exeter, New Hampshire). So can someone move the cite so it's after New Hampshire? Thanks.

Exeter,[11] New Hampshire

--76.189.123.142 (talk) 07:18, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed, thanks. I just used one wikilink ([[Exeter, New Hampshire]]). Ryan Vesey 07:28, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Ryan. You're welcome. --76.189.123.142 (talk) 07:42, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Victims images per feedback suggestion

I saw a feedback suggestion [8] and thought I'd bring it up here. If someone was willing to put together a collage, would it meet our non-free image requirements as identification of the victims? Ryan Vesey 07:35, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Even if we kept to the children and teachers (26) that would be 26 non-free images even if you put them into a collage. Massive NFC failure, as well as failing WP:NOT#MEMORIAL. --MASEM (t) 14:38, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

a few tweaks

1. Looks like the media is now stating Nancy Lanza was shot 4 times while she slept. 2. Did Marsh Lanza really "change her story" about Nancy keeping the guns simply for safety, or was she misquoted in the earlier news reports? After all, she says she had not seen the family since the shooter was 3 years old. CNN had a video with several neighbors who also say any of these survivalist stories are bunk, and she was a responsible gun-owner and a good mother, friendly, just a normal mom with a troubled child whom she worked hard to help. Anyway, if there is no basis for the "change of story" note on the reference, it should be removed ASAP.HammerFilmFan (talk) 11:47, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

They're back in school

That's what I heard on the radio. I don't know where, and I don't know where they'll go permanently, but it's time to at least say the kids are back in school.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 13:58, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a source to start with, although I'm sure some of you can do better. This is just a newspaper I see as part of my normal routine.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 14:00, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Wait, that says other schools in town ... it's still a development.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 14:01, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The Conn. gov' stated last week that classes for the students would resume today.HammerFilmFan (talk) 14:33, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Layout

With the small pgph under the Victims heading and the float-right list of victims, the picture of Lanza takes visual focus on the page. What is the consensus of the group to change the format of the long thin list into a columnar table inside the Victims heading and floating the image of Lanza. Should the image be scaled down? Bill D (talk) 15:25, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ McKinney, Dave (December 18, 2012). "Leading gun-rights advocate wants teachers armed with weapons". Chicago Sun-Times. Retrieved December 18, 2012. {{cite web}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
  2. ^ Cite error: The named reference Lieberman was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  3. ^ "NRA releases statement on Conn. shooting". USA Today. Retrieved December 18, 2012.
  4. ^ Gatehouse, Jonathon; Friscolanti, Michael; Savage, Luiza CH. In The Line Of Fire, Maclean's, April 30, 2007.
  5. ^ Cite error: The named reference NYBankoff was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  6. ^ Cite error: The named reference Investigators look for insight into Newtown gunman's mind was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  7. ^ "Madeline Hsu 'upbeat and kind'." Connecticut Post. Monday December 17, 2012. Retrieved on December 18, 2012. "Madeleine F. Hsu – Sandy Hook Massacre Victim Photo: Contributed Photo / Connecticut Post Contributed" and "Dryer said the 6-year-old, nicknamed Maddy,[...]"
  8. ^ Cite error: The named reference greenwichtime was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  9. ^ "Scholarship Set Up in Memory of Ana Marquez-Greene." NBC Connecticut. Tuesday December 18, 2012. Retrieved on December 18, 2012.
  10. ^ Cite error: The named reference nydailynews4 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  11. ^ Cite error: The named reference seacoastonline was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
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