Talk:Taiwan

Shorten Intro section

Hi everyone, I recommend shortening the introducion. There's simply too much history detail to belong in the intro of a country article. The pre-history, paleolithic period through periods prior to founding of ROC in 1912 and takeover of Taiwan in 1945, should be moved into the history section. The intro should be brief about the current key facts about a country, but the intro has 4 paragraphs, 3 of which included prehistory of Taiwan, the period before the founding of ROC, and the economy and evolution into a democracy. I think the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs should be combined and condensed. This way, without too much unnecessary details, the important issue about Taiwan's unusual international status would be easily seen, and a reader can look into the history(or political status of Taiwan) if he/she's interested. Average readers go to Wikipedia for some quick facts, and I'm sure most (younger) people probably have never known there are "Two Chinas". That's why I wrote the Oct 9 2012 version so average readers will be drawn to that link and to read more if they're interested, and learn about Taiwan's unusual situation. I know the two Chinas aspect is described in detail in the History section and also partially covered in the intro lead, but the intro is way too detailed and detracts the reader's attention on 1)why Taiwan has a name "Republic of China", and that has a disputed/lack of recognition status, despite being a democracy and capitalist society. Mistakefinder (talk) 07:09, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

It's not overly long by some country article standards, but I agree in principle that the intro could probably be shortened a little, mainly by trimming and tightening some of the existing phrasing. However, one problem is that people keep adding more and more embellishments to it – as you yourself did with your last edit. On that "two Chinas" point itself, it's a very outdated, and arguably loaded, way of describing and looking at the situation these days. Taiwan/ROC is rarely referred to now as an alternative China. Not only that, but if it's intended to be a replacement for whole chunks of what we have now it's expressed a bit simplistically. N-HH talk/edits 08:01, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

It isn't unreasonable or surprising for a country article to have quite a long introduction, after all, a country is quite a broad thing, and there's much to explain in even the most basic of summaries. See United States, China, Russia, France, Germany, et cetera. Though, some of the history can be trimmed, since it has quite an undue weight within the intro (too much history, not enough economy/culture/geography/etc). -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 08:19, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

The island of Taiwan was mainly inhabited by Taiwanese aborigines until the Dutch period when Chinese began moving to Taiwan. The Qing Dynasty of China later conquered Taiwan in 1683. By the time Taiwan was ceded to Japan's in 1895, the majority of Taiwan's inhabitants were Han Chinese either by ancestry or by assimilation. The Republic of China was established in mainland China in 1912. At the end of World War II in 1945, Japan surrendered Taiwan and associated islands to ROC forces. Following the Chinese civil war Chinese Communists took full control of mainland China and founded the People's Republic of China (PRC) in 1949. The ROC resettled its government to Taiwan. In 1971, the PRC assumed China's seat at the United Nations. International recognition of the ROC has gradually eroded as most countries switched recognition to the PRC in the 1970s. Only 11 UN member states and the Holy See currently maintain formal diplomatic relations with the ROC, though Taiwan has informal ties with most other states.

I propose the above paragraph to replace the second paragraph of the introduction. The introduction isn't supposed to be a detailed overview of history so I've removed quite a bit. What I've left, I've left because I think it is necessary for having a basic understanding of what Taiwan is today. Readin (talk) 14:33, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

"Mainland"

Once again we have a one-person fight going on over a minor point nomenclature point. GOTR inserted "mainland" with this edit, and has since then edit-warred it in again and again over two other editors, while using abusive and incomprehensible edit summaries, eg here, here and here. This all gets very boring. Usual process is to argue the case on the talk page once an edit fails to get consensus and/or is reverted. Despite the claims about the motives of others, it's GOTR who rather obviously has the agenda here and the strange never-ending desire to impose their idiosyncratic views about what standard terminology is in the English-language world across multiple pages here. As ever, the rest of us simply want words to be used in the way everyone else uses them. If that constitutes having an agenda, or "making a political statement", fine.
As to the point at issue, in my view the addition is redundant and arguably an odd use of the term. It adds nothing by way of clarity - if it were there to start with, I would not remove it; if it were not, I would not add it. Given that it was not there initially, and given its redundancy, we can and should go back to simply "China". As is still the case, most real-world sources mean the modern country when they say "China" in this sort of context and do not feel the need to suggest Taiwan is part of "non-mainland China". We should do the same. And the claims presented here about the phrase "mainland China" are simply wrong - it is more often used to distinguish between HK & Macao and the rest of China, not between Taiwan, HK & Macao and the "rest of" China. N-HH talk/edits 10:07, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for raising this here N-HH. I was one of the reverted editors. I truly didn't comprehend GOTR's Edit summaries, so I raised the matter on his Talk page. In an almost equally cryptic response, I was accused there with "the term being falsely manipulated to your ends". I have no sneaky, manipulative goals here, just plain English, which is precisely what we're not getting from GOTR. He is demonstrating either incompetence, aggressive POV pushing, and/or deliberate obfuscation. The section of the article we're discussing is about Geography, not politics, so the games GOTR is playing are simply unacceptable. HiLo48 (talk) 10:23, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

There are plenty of sources that treat Taiwan as part of China. The government of Taiwan says Taiwan is part of China. Plenty of other sources treat them as separate. We had a big discussion with a three admin panels deciding that the names of the articles should be "Taiwan" and "China" however they also said that their decisions did not extend to the texts of the articles. To be neutral on whether Taiwan is in fact part of China, we have for a long time avoided using simply "mainland" (implies that China is obviously the main land of whatever country Taiwan is part of) and we have avoided using simply "China" since it implies Taiwan is not part of China. I'm not a big fan of the term "mainland China" since I think it leans slightly in favor of the annexationists, however it is the most neutral term we have available to us. Readin (talk) 15:14, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Regarding the comment that "mainland China" "is more often used to distinguish between HK & Macao and the rest of China". That technically true. Most of the time in the context of writing about Taiwan, "the mainland" is used rather than the longer "mainland China". English newspaper article often alternate between "China" and "the mainland". People in Taiwan usually just say "mainland". Readin (talk) 15:18, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

It makes sense to use "mainland China" because it's specific, and there's nothing wrong with specificity. Mainland China is a geographic term, and it can be used to describe the relative location of things. Mind you, literature, books, newspaper articles and published journals in Taiwan on occasion use the term "mainland China" in English and simply 大陸 in Chinese when dealing with geographical topics. For example, a scientific article about the breeding of carp would read "the climate of southern Fujian Province of the mainland is unsuitable for large-scale aquacultural farming to occur", and would refer to a specific location as "off the southern coast near the mainland" as opposed to "off the southern coast of China". -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 15:55, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

You guys are making it seem that "mainland China" is as obscure or ridiculous as "Cathay," as if we we wanted to say "The island of Taiwan lies some 180 kilometers (111 miles) off the southeastern coast of Cathay..." It is not. Using "China" geographically in contrast with Taiwan may be prevalent, but it is not exclusive. The term "mainland China" (or the "Chinese mainland") neither rare, nor ridiculous, nor obscure, nor redundant, and is used in significant frequency by reliable sources. In fact, our dear friend Britannica begins the article of the same subject with "Taiwan, Chinese (Wade-Giles romanization) T’ai-wan or (Pinyin) Taiwan, Portuguese Formosa, island, located about 100 miles (161 km) off the southeast coast of the China mainland."

You can surely argue that use of "China" instead of "mainland China" here poses no ambiguity and that brevity is a benefit, but use of "mainland China" here poses no problem either. I don't see what's the fuss. "Mainland China" in this instance is preferable because it is more precise and politically neutral, neither implying that Taiwan is part of China nor implying that it is not.--Jiang (talk) 16:13, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

"Mainland China" is a term used by some of those wanting to prove that the country Wikipedia has agreed to call Taiwan is really China. It is a VERY political term. And I'm still concerned by the incomprehensible language used by User:Guerrilla of the Renmin, and the still somewhat cryptic, insider style language used by some here. Too many involved in the debate on which is the "real China" seem unable to discuss the matter in objective, modern idiomatic English. And this IS English Wikipedia. HiLo48 (talk) 16:53, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

I was talking with someone a few crescent moons back at a gathering of students. For some reason the topic turned to Wikipedia, and we were asked what we thought of it. I remember one person describing Wikipedia quite well: "It's a place where a bunch of nerds on computers pretend to be experts, write articles believing that they're doing something great, award each other imaginary digital trophies, and argue with one another over silly things that only nerds care about". Looking in retrospect, there isn't a better way to describe Wikipedia. Are we seriously having this silly argument over this tiny, trivial issue? I thought us, as Wikipedians, would dedicate our time to much better things, such as writing articles, but I guess we can't run from stereotypes, huh?

HiLo48, first of all it's not always the case that there's a "super sekrit agenda" going on, you shouldn't always assume it to be so, and second, it's great that you're passionate about a topic, but there's a limit to all of us, and you're approaching (and passing) the line of "pretend-expert". "Mainland China" being a politically-charged term is your interpretation, and it doesn't seem to be shared with publishers of marine biology journals in Taiwan, nor Britannica (you know, the encyclopedia that isn't written by a bunch of volunteer nerds). Now, I'm not saying that you're 100% wrong and the cause of all woes, as I am well aware that things relating to the topic of Taiwan have always been drama-magnets and a lot of people are responsible, but surely people can realise that things are getting too silly here? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 17:24, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

I did not say that it's "always the case that there's a "super sekrit agenda" going on". I did not "assume it to be so". And I don't claim to be any sort of an expert on China and Taiwan. Misrepresenting other's views is never helpful. Please stop it. And stop blaming me for anything! HiLo48 (talk) 19:59, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Anyway, I guess all these scientists must be dirty commies, huh? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 17:39, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

What's even more shocking, the meteorology department of the National Taiwan University has been infiltrated by evil nationalists with a pro-unification agenda as well! -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 17:44, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

I thought my response to HiLo48's unusually cool-headed post on my talk page was quite unequivocal, and no, N-HH, you misrepresent my words yet again: I never claimed anything about the phrase "mainland China" other than to state its 100% inflexible (Hainan is irrelevant here) definition. GotR ^Talk 20:13, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Let's just look at the words: if "off" means "away and [politically, culturally, geographically] apart from", which all disputants seem to be in agreement about, then saying that Taiwan lies "off the southeastern coast of China" definitely implies that Taiwan is not a part of China. On the other hand, saying that Taiwan lies "off the southeastern coast of mainland China" does not necessarily imply that Taiwan is a part of China. It's like how you can say that Quebec "lies next to the northern United States" without necessarily implying that Quebec is part of the United States, but if you say that Vermont "lies next to the United States", you imply that Vermont is not part of the United States.

Some of the misunderstanding here might arise from the fact that "mainland China" is a somewhat technical term, and if you don't talk to people or read enough in-depth sources about cross-strait relations, then you will just think of the simplistic dichotomy, "Taiwan and China". However, Wikipedia works on what we can document, and there is a wealth of written sources from all points of view which use the term. That's not to say that it isn't politicized: the DPP administration (2000-2008)'s education minister Du Zhengsheng ordered Taiwan history textbooks to remove the term, along with separating Taiwan history and China history into separate volumes, among other desinicization efforts. But again, using "China" rather than "mainland China" is the more biased choice, because unlike "mainland China", it forecloses the possibility of a valid alternate point of view (that Taiwan is a part of China, held not - we must remind ourselves - only by KMTers on the island but also by the PRC and the international community at large). Shrigley (talk) 01:22, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

OK, since we're in the realm of pedantry and I have five minutes to spare .. the precise text here is this – "The island of Taiwan lies some 180 kilometers (111 miles) off the southeastern coast of [mainland] China". The context here is clearly the modern geography of the modern countries. As noted, most sources in that context will simply contrast "China" with "Taiwan". That should be enough for us too, but if we want to have a meta-debate: the addition of "mainland" is at best redundant – not least because we've already talked about "coast" – and at best politically loaded. I'm not sure it works as an argument to say (to summarise) "using simply 'China' by definition implies Taiwan is definitely not part of China, whereas using 'mainland China' is more ambiguous and hence more neutral". That seems to me, in fact, to sidestep the remarked-upon technical aspects of the term mainland China. Using it in this context is not like saying "Tokyo is 1000 miles from mainland China" or "Paris is 100 miles from mainland Britain", in order to exclude those cities' proximity to a closer offshire Chinese island of some sort or the Isle of Wight (please note I am not sure the exact geography works here, it's an illustration) – it is very clearly a bid to suggest that Taiwan is part of China as a whole. As with the China/PRC/Taiwan/ROC move discussions, we know all options can be read by some people as implying this that or the other. The only question, however, that needs to concern us is what terminology the rest of the word most commonly uses; which is primarily China vs Taiwan and mainland China vs HK & Macao (and any other PRC-controlled islands). You don't need to be a specialist expert to make that observation. Also, pls note that despite all that I'm not going to live or die by the insertion or absence of mainland – what is disruptive and pointless here is the fact that one editor made the change and then ridiculously lambasted anyone who disagreed with their action as having a "Taiwan independence" agenda. All that has done is led us to an edit-war and, er, talk page verbiage. N-HH talk/edits 09:50, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Great post. Your final two sentences especially. HiLo48 (talk) 10:07, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

It's amazing how we've managed to amass 10,000 bytes of text within two days over discussion regarding the word "mainland". Add a few references, and we could pass this talk page section for DYK. </joke> -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 10:56, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

I would say it is the "my way or you die on the highway", hot-and-heavy attitude of those who insist that Taiwan is definitely not part of China (which is the core of TI), who happen to be completely ignorant ("I'm not sure the exact geography works here") of this subject matter and still pretend to be experts on nomenclature. They also marginalise a term which is commonly used (unlike the "ROC") and falsely label it as having connotations it does not carry (and by chance in the same manner that TI does) in order to meet their ends; again, this term is fully inflexible in its scope yet completely ambiguous in implication. GotR ^Talk 18:05, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

LOL. Thank you for making your POV obvious. (And I'd suggest you avoid terms like "TI", unlikely to be understood by those who don't have preconceived ideas on this topic. I'm not familiar with it.) HiLo48 (talk) 18:33, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

This discussion isn't centred along one person; what GoTR might say on his own accord does not make your arguments all the more stronger. Address the main arguments laid above, and not the specific details of an editor. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 22:44, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

GOTR has also proved their continuing ability to abuse people, by describing them as "completely ignorant", especially when those people have not displayed any such quality. If GOTR thinks that my not being sure how far, off the top of my head, Tokyo is from China or Paris from the UK (or whether there are any islands in a direct line between those cities and the mainland coasts in question) and my using abstract comparative examples (where, of course, such details do not actually matter for the purposes of the argument) is evidence of complete "ignorance", let alone ignorance in respect of nomenclature relating to Taiwan, then the hat better fits on their head I think. Also, as ever they are missing the point. We are not having an esoteric, philosophical debate about whether Taiwan "is", in some fundamental sense, part of China or not. We are talking about what people commonly mean when they use those terms, and the term "mainland" China in such contexts and contrasts. On these points, they are simply wrong, even if they have still not quite come to terms with it. As they are on the claim that we are insisting on having things our way. They may not have noticed, or may not have understood, that both myself and HiLo have said we are not insisting on the removal of mainland, although we disagree with having it. By contrast, GOTR has edit warred it in over three other editors in the last few days. Again, the mirror is that way. N-HH talk/edits 22:57, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry to read that GOTR has apparently hurt your feelings. But he is not the only editor that has responded to support the use of "mainland China". Readin (talk) 10:55, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

They haven't hurt my feelings as such, simply behaved – as they often do – like a bit of a twat over this issue and also baffled me with the gall of referring to me as "completely ignorant" and accusing everyone else who disagrees with them of having some kind of agenda, which rather obviously has everything pretty much back to front on both counts. I'm happy to disagree reasonably with people over the use of "mainland" and, as noted, don't think it's worth fighting on the actual page over. That said, having this page on my watchlist is more of a headache than it's worth. The title issue is thankfully long resolved, and I don't add much real content to the page. By contrast, more than 50% of the edits I see made to it seem to consist of people scoring points or making the English worse (which btw is to acknowledge that many of the other edits are beneficial). As ever, people with good generalist history knowledge and decent English language/editorial skills – and precisely nothing in the way of substantive engagement or investment in the underlying politics – are squeezed out. Which to me doesn't seem to be a good way to build well-written, factually accurate and broadly neutral encyclopedia pages. But hey, that's Wikipedia. N-HH talk/edits 11:30, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

ps: hence, I'm taking it off my watchlist. Have fun everyone, especially those of you who actually are here to be constructive. N-HH talk/edits 11:32, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Competence is required. I am afraid that "good generalist history knowledge" is probably not good enough, even for Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not one big band wagon. Having a degree from SOAS or otherwise notwithstanding, we should normally say or edit things that we actually know about, not those that we don't. Unlike in the United States of America – where this sort of thing might or might not be more and better tolerated – over here in England, a land where in which unfortunately both of us live, we are traditionally supposed to know our places, and to only say things that we know nothing about when we are intoxicated (drunk), and within the confines of the building and premises of an English pub, an alehouse or a tavern – and having a rant of some kind. Wikipedia is not really supposed to be the place to "unwind yourself" after having some "bevvies", after returning home from a long day (Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not therapy). -- KC9TV 19:45, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Please don't misquote essays to attack other editors (especially one who has given up on this article anyway). As someone who considers themselves sufficiently knowledgeable on cross strait issues (as someone from Taiwan), I've found N-HH et al. to be far more helpful here than people on either side who insist on some exact presentation that fits their POV. wctaiwan (talk) 01:37, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

• This is not a personal attack. NO ONE can possibly specialise in the history of every single Country in the World. If you don't know the history of a given place in any depth, then you are surely incompetent. If you cannot drive a car, or even a moped, then surely you are incompetent in driving. This is a ridiculous and an ultimately false accusation. I am only speaking to him as one Briton to another fellow Brit, you know, in "our own language" (but not yours), except for the fact that you had also "stolen" our language, via the Americans, but only for you – partly because of language and cultural differences – to mistaken the context of my words! I am not responsible for your obvious mistaken interpretation! This is not very different from misinterpreting a Japanese person by applying modern Chinese meanings to the Kanji that the Japanese uses. Please see also Wikipedia:Competence is required. I thank you. -- KC9TV 15:58, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

• I think we can all agree that the status of the Isle of Wight is not remotely similar to that of Taiwan. It has since at least the year 1066 always been governed by the English and British Crown and the Church in, or of, England, ultimately as an integral part of the Kingdom or the Realm of England – albeit historically a semi-autonomous fiefdom within the County of Southampton, or Hampshire, complete with its own colonial-style head entitled "Governor". Furthermore, the word "Mainland" does not in fact necessarily imply either ownership, belonging, possession, sovereignty, suzerainty or overlord-ship.

• In some parts of the Island of Ireland, the word "the Mainland" still means England (E. & W.), or England (E. & W.) and Scotland, rather than the Continent of Europe.
• In England, "the Mainland" means France and the Continent of Europe.
• Upon the Falkland Islands, "the Mainland" unmistakeably means the Spanish-speaking parts of Southern South America, rather than England.
• In Bermuda and the Somers Isles, "the Mainland" means the United States of America, rather than England or Canada.
• In Tristan da Cunha, "the Mainland" means South Africa, rather than England.
• In Saint-Pierre and Miquelon, "the Mainland" means Newfoundland in Canada, rather than European France.
• In Malta and Gozo, "the Mainland" means Sicily in Italy.
• Both in the Bahamas and upon the Turks and Caicos Islands, "the Mainland" means Florida, in the United States of America.
• In Cyprus, "the Mainland" means either Greece or Turkey. -- KC9TV 17:11, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Hey everybody, this is my first time writing on a talk page but I just want to mention that during my time studying in China, I got scrutinized for typing a English paper using the terms "China and Taiwan". They say that I have to write a mainland in front of China. Therefore, the term "mainland China" is indeed a politically loaded phrase here in China. This makes the edit, to me, politically motivated, not to mention his insults in the form of 'SB' is very local Chinese. To enforce such an edit seems equivalent to a child's last respite for not getting what they wanted (a wiki article on Taiwan not titled "Taiwan"). Ikena (talk) 07:31, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

As if you were any wiser than a child for making a claim (that the term is politicised) without any substantiation? This is the precise equivalent to blurting the (completely wrong as explained ad infinitum above) answer on a free-response question to an exam. GotR ^Talk 08:35, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi, GotR. Yet you remain heated on the agenda of adding a 'mainland' to the article. Don't deny that you do not have an agenda, with your harsh edit remarks, unwavering reedits, and apt name "Guerrilla of the Renmin". Anybody who is not intimate with China would easily not see the impact of the addition of 'mainland'. Your edit, on a whole, is fine, because after all, the wiki page is for the general public. I just can't abide you pretending that adding mainland is harmless in the China and Taiwan power struggle on this page. As I say before (which you find unsubstantial, but it happened to me nevertheless), I was asked by a professor in Tsinghua to add a 'mainland' in front of China because it mentioned Taiwan in the same sentence in order to form a distinction that they are not different countries. Ikena (talk) 09:12, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

There are a billion people who think Taiwan and China are the same country (yeah, we know they've been brainwashed, but we still can't ignore the beliefs of a billion people). Most nations official claim Taiwan and China are the same country (even if they unofficially behave as though they are separate countries). As part of WP:NPOV, Wikipedia doesn't take a stance on whether Taiwan and China are one country or two countries. This leads to a question of how to name the two countries. Do we call them "Taiwan" and "China" with the clear implication that Taiwan is not part of China? Do we call China simply "the mainland" as the KMT encourages to make it clear that the main part of the country is China? Do we call them "Republic of China" and "People's Republic of China"? Do we always refer to Taiwan as "Taiwan Province" or "Taiwan island"? Do we say Taipei 101 is located in "Taipei, Taiwan, China"? I don't like the term "mainland China" because I agree that it is not entirely neutral; it is slightly biased in favor of the Chinese nationalist position. However I haven't been able to think of term that is less biased. In everyday life I just say "Taiwan" and "China" because I look at the situation and see clearly two separate countries. But Wikipedia is supposed to be based on notable sources, not necessarily on the observations of clear-thinking individuals. So even though "Taiwan" and "China" are clearly correct in that they represent the truth, we can't use them because they fail the NPOV test.Readin (talk) 13:11, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm intrigued by KC9TV's observations about the use of "the mainland" in various contexts. Does anyone have any ideas about how we could find out more about what English speakers usually think "the mainland" implies? Maybe I'm the weird one for thinking it implies that for an island it implies the main part of the country. Or maybe For most Americans we treat it differently than people in various islands because we are most familiar with its usage in relation to Hawaii which is out in the middle of the ocean rather than just a few miles from a much larger landmass. Readin (talk) 13:17, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Dictionary definitions? But personally if you say something like "Taiwan is near mainland China", it sort of implies that Taiwan is part of China. Almost all of China is continental, after all. John Smith's (talk) 19:44, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

The term "mainland China" in most cases excludes Hong Kong and Macau. For example, in the economics world, you can buy Hong Kong stocks or Mainland stocks, and in the entertainment industry, there are "mainland artists" and "Gangtai artists". Andy Lau has never ever been described as a "mainland singer" in any biography, news piece or showbiz reel, and HSBC separates its mainland and Hong Kong operations very distinctly. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 02:07, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

I recommend using "Taiwan" and "People's Republic of China". Even though one is the common name and the other one is the official name, it is a less biased form and fits the NPOV test better. This form does not specify whether Taiwan and PRC both belong to "one China" or are they two seperate countries. Taiwan is part of "China" or not is a controversial issue, but that Taiwan is currently not part of the PRC is the truth.223.136.2.93 (talk) 16:16, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Anonymous user, please reevaluate what you believe to be controversial in this topic. The PRC claims that Taiwan is a part of the PRC. As far as the "truth" goes, you can say that Taiwan has its own government or summarize the history, but to say that it isn't a part of the PRC, well that might seem obvious to you, but it isn't actually an entirely neutral perspective, and its best to stick to factual descriptions and avoid such statements entirely on Wikipedia. This is a complicated topic, but my understanding of wikipedia's neutrality is that following common English language useage is the best solution when no alternative can be found which is completely neutral. - Metal lunchbox ^(talk) 15:23, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Why not just say that it lies off the coast of Fujian Province? Just as neutral as saying that Long Island lies directly to the south of Connecticut and Rhode Island, no? 38.104.120.214 (talk) 22:02, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Request for Comment: Regarding WP:NC-TW

I have opened a Request for Comment regarding WP:NC-TW, which was part of the policy regarding naming conventions related to Taiwan, and Republic of China, but since been removed and marked inactive. There is no current policy placed in place of WP:NC-TW, so the request for comment seeks a replacement for it. - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 06:52, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Split

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal to split the article. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal to split the article was not split. (non-admin closure) wctaiwan (talk) 05:29, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

{{split}} Geographically, the former is the sum of the latter, Kinmen, the Matsu Islands, Wuciou, the Pratas Islands, and Taiping Island. Historically, the latter is much longer than the former. 14.0.208.97 (talk) 04:52, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• Please no. There's already enough of a mess, we don't need more of it. Yes, Penghu, Fukien (ROC) and the SCS islands aren't part of Taiwan Island, but for the sake of simplicity, let's just call the sovereign state "Taiwan", after all it seems that the community doesn't like the term "Republic of China" anymore. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 05:29, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
  • I understand your anxieties. But the current state is far from satisfactory. Why don't we take a head-on approach to address the problem? My proposal isn't going to (re)introduce "Republic of China" as part of any article title. (Meanwhile, the Pescadores are part of Taiwan from geographical, lingual and sociocultural point of view.) 14.0.208.87 (talk) 22:29, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose This is hair splitting and would create two separate articles that cover largely the same material. The distinction between the geographic location and the state, or for that matter the country and the state or the country and the geographic location, is better handled within the article than by creating separate articles for each slightly different but mostly overlapping concept of "Taiwan".Readin (talk) 07:07, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: There's nothing much different from, e.g., Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, Micronesia and the Federated States of Micronesia, or perhaps Great Britain and the United Kingdom. 14.0.208.107 (talk) 07:14, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• Comment As someone else noted, there is a Geography of Taiwan article that serves as a Taiwan (island) article to the extent that one is needed. Readin (talk) 06:08, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• Geography of Foo are articles for Foo, whereas Foo usually got the same meaning and covers the same thing as the article titled Foo. 14.0.208.59 (talk) 18:08, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose, this is hair-splitting that gives no advantage to the reader. Even readers familiar with the topic will likely find such a split confusing and bothersome. This is Wikipedia, not a dictionary. The topic is Taiwan. That topic covers geography and politics, demographics, history, etc. If in certain rare circumstances the word Taiwan can take two extremely closely related but somewhat distinct meanings, this is not important, because nothing in the way wikipedia works requires us to infinitely taxonomize words and their possible meanings into a myriad of seperate articles without a single article of the topic generally. A country has a geography, its a part of the concept, it shoudn't be split off just becuase of one detail- the fact that the country is commonly refered to (in English) by the name of the island which represents the great majority of its territory. There is no reason this can't be explained in simple terms in the article titled “Taiwan". - Metal lunchbox ^(talk) 09:49, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
  • These circumstances aren't rare. 14.0.208.48 (talk) 18:01, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. An article on a large island will generally include small, dependent islands nearby. Only a tiny percentage of readers will know, or care, about the peculiar legal status of Quemoy, Matsu, or Taiping. Kauffner (talk) 13:19, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
  • It's like saying Hawaii is part of North America, or French Guiana and Réunion are part of Europe, just because they're politically part of a North American or a European country. Do you consider Northern Ireland to be part of Great Britain? 14.0.208.48 (talk) 18:01, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• Kauffner are you suggesting that the "tiny percentage" can be and should be ignored? Are Northern Ireland, Hawaii, French Guiana, Mayotte and Réunion insignificant and peculiar enough to be simply disregarded? 14.0.208.87 (talk) 22:32, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• The outlying islands are mentioned prominently in the opening paragraph, so they are getting more attention than they deserve as it is. Who is this proposal supposed to benefit? Those who do not understand the issue will not be able to figure it out from the proposed parentheticals. The country is primary topic, so the title of its article should be in the form most recognizable to the reader. Kauffner (talk) 10:02, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• As I've mentioned, the two articles can be titled Taiwan and Taiwan (island), i.e., the country article can stay with the present title. 14.0.208.59 (talk) 18:08, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. We hashed this out when this article was moved to Taiwan, but "Taiwan" is overwhelmingly the common name for the country. That along is enough reason to leave this article where it is, but there's also no need to split as Geography of Taiwan already exists, with Taiwan (island) linking to it. --JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 13:55, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Geography of Taiwan is an article about the geography of the country. You don't redirect Great Britain to Geography of the United Kingdom. 14.0.208.48 (talk) 18:01, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
    • But "Taiwan the island" is only a geographical entity, not a political one, while the split proposal starts "Geographically..."; if the reason for splitting is to distinguish the historical and political from the geographical then those articles both already exist. Finally you should get yourself an account if you want to participate fully in this discussion or similar ones. With what looks like an ever changing IP you may find yourself classified as a single purpose account and your views given less weight then they deserve.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 18:14, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• Yes and no. It used to be a political one, before 1945, as a colony that appeared in post-war treaties and agreements. It also used to be coterminous with the namesake province before municipalities were split off from the province (in 1967, 1979, and 2010). Further, it's a cultural identity. Inhabitants shared the languages, culture, cuisine, experiences, and so on and so forth, that people identify themselves with terms like ben-sheng-ren. This identity isn't shared by people from other parts of the modern-time country. (For example, the 228 Incident and the Retrocession Day aren't relevant to them.) Currently only one article exist for the two different concepts. On your final point, I am not editing for single purpose. Editors have the duty to avoid stereotyping. 14.0.208.87 (talk) 22:12, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Then you may be looking for History of Taiwan which goes into the history in greater detail. But again, this was resolved not long ago: the common name for the country is overwhelmingly Taiwan, so this article is not going to move, or be replaced with a disambiguation page, any time soon. And my advice on getting an account was just that: advice. If you intend to spend any time here it makes sense for many reasons.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 22:45, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• That's just a proposal. The two articles can be named Taiwan (country) and Taiwan (island), or Taiwan and Taiwan (island), or anything that's adequately accurate, reasonable and logical. 14.0.208.87 (talk) 22:55, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. common name being Taiwan. Whats up with this splitting of articles 14.0.208.87 ? He has done the same on the Cyprus article.23x2 _φ 23:25, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Agree with UCN. That's why I said having two articles with the titles Taiwan and Taiwan (island) is also possible. 14.0.208.59 (talk) 18:08, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• I think I'm slightly against a split. While I'm for splitting Cyprus due to the complex geopolitical issues at play there, there are no such issues with Taiwan. Taiwan the country consists of Taiwan the island, associated smaller islands, and Quemoy and Matsu closer to the mainland. The article on the geography of Taiwan should be sufficient for information on the island. However, I'm also not averse to treating landmasses individually. The island of Cyprus is not coterminous with the Republic of Cyprus (presumably it includes associated islets), the island of Taiwan is not coterminous with the Republic of China, the island of Tasmania is not coterminous with the state of Tasmania, etc etc, and I think we would be served by having articles on every individual landmass in the world regardless of their political status. However, the current style on Wikipedia appears to be to go with the political entity for the article, and relegate details of the singular island to a "Geography of [entity]" article. So while I won't urge for a split, I won't challenge one either. (Note that, should there be a split, the article for the country should definitely remain the main article. The only one that doesn't is Ireland, since that's the only situation of a split landmass that I can think of where one of the entities shares its name with the landmass) --Golbez (talk) 14:34, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
• comment as redirects are cheap and to address perhaps one of the concerns of the proposer, that and article on the country should be reachable at Taiwan (country), I've created a redirect to that effect. This does not preclude the split happening should consensus somehow form that it should, and means otherwise that anyone using the search box to find the country article will have one extra link to point them to the right article.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 20:03, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. Hairsplitting, and will simply create confusion for users. 38.104.120.214 (talk) 22:06, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Per comments above.--R-41 (talk) 19:06, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

NPOV

First, a disclaimer. I do not dispute that the Republic of China today is often referred to as "Taiwan". I do not believe Taiwan is part of the People's Republic of China, nor that it should be.

Now, the issue. To put it simply, the Republic of China, the state which has existed from 1911 and contiues to exist today, is a notable subject and should have an article on Wikipedia, but it has none. "Republic of China" is redirected to this article, which is about Taiwan the island/province/colony/self-govering entity/country (as it has changed throughout history), but there is no article on Republic of China the state.

The subject of the article is not just the Republic of China today. It is about the island of Taiwan, from pre-Republic of China days down to the present day. The correct title for this article should be Taiwan. It is conceptually anachronistic to try to cover the history of the non-Taiwan part of the Republic of China in an article about Taiwan, when the only unifying factor of these parts, the Republic of China, did not even control Taiwan at the time.

I understand the reasoning which is reflected in the current set-up. For Wikipedia to adopt this reasoning is in violation of NPOV. In a topic with many competing interpretations as this, the NPOV way forward is to describe things as they are, without an added layer of biased interpretation. As the articles currently stand, the implication is that the Republic of China which existed from 1912 to 1949 was a different entity to the one which existed from 1949 onwards. The argument is often trotted out by the Communist government on the mainland but the historical fact is that there was no discontinuity in 1949, but a progressive reduction of territory. The argument is susepct and reflects a marginal view in mainstream understanding of the topic. Most importantly, it is an opinion, a gloss on the facts, not the facts themselves.

If this article is about the state, then it should cover the state. If it is about the island, then it should cover the island. To superimpose the two topics on one another is anachronistic, illogical, and, as I say, presents opinion as fact. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 15:37, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

There is another article title "Republic of China (1912-1949)". The current content describing the history of Taiwan along with the central Government on Formosa since December 1949 should not be titled as any term related to China. Most Taiwanese People now firmly reject to be confused with China, in daily life or on Wikipedia. No more, period. Most importantly, the Government in Taiwan based on liberal democracy is quite different from the government established in China in 1911. The official name of Greece is "the Hellenic Republic" and almost everyone accept it. -- Wildcursive (talk) 21:35, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

The only thing that I could suggest is renaming "Republic of China (1912-1949)" to "History of the Republic of China (1912-1949)", since, despite everything, there does appear to be a straight line of power. But at present, "Taiwan" being a short-form name for the Republic of China is not at all in dispute, even if the RoC wasn't always merely Taiwan. --Golbez (talk) 22:07, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

I thought, per the agreement that this article was about the Republic of China and Taiwan, that the history section inluded both the pre-1949 history of Taiwan and the 1911-1949 history of the ROC. But the ROC part isn't there. Did it get moved? Why and when? I'm all in favor of having separate articles for the country (Taiwan) and the government (ROC), but we had reached a hard-won consensus. How did it get changed? Readin (talk) 04:55, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

1. Political-wise, the mixture of "Republic of China" and "Taiwan" is only in favour of Communist-party point of view, since the mixture conforms Communist Party's claim that RoC is dead after 1949 and now "RoC" is only an old-fashioned nickname of Taiwan. And "Republic of China (1912-1949)" sounds like a lifespan of a dead person.
2. For those who support one Republic of China (Pan-Blue), needless to say, 1949 was only a progressive reduction of territory and it should not be discontinuity in history.
3. For those who support RoC gov't to forgo territory claim for Mainland China and change sovereign name into "Taiwan" (Pan-Green), RoC does not represent Taiwan and should be out of Taiwan, and thus should not be "the official name of Taiwan", as written here but not Taiwan's article in Chinese zh:臺灣. CommInt'l (talk) 17:40, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

There are primarily two reasons the year 1949 is used:

1. The year 1949 is used in reference to the creation of the PRC, at the time the RoC Capital was located in Canton. In this case, 1949 is a POV date set by the PRC who feels that it is the year the PRC was created, hence the RoC becomes non-existent and 'succeeded' by the PRC.

2. The year 1949 is used to refer to the capital being moved to Taipei in Dec. 1949, thus beginning the 'RoC on Taiwan Era'.

Again, regardless of which viewpoint is used, the RoC controlled considerably more territory than just Taiwan immediately post-1949. Hainan was not lost until 1950. Several parts of China were not pacified until well into the mid-1950s. RoC troops controlled what was western Yunnan were not pushed out until 1961, until then Taiwan consisted of at most ~50% of RoC's territories (western Yunnan was about the size of Taiwan). 204.126.132.241 (talk) 16:55, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Having read the debate logs and the closing decision from February 2012, I note that the closing decision by the "triumvirate" says: "An article narrowly formulated about the government of Taiwan and its history can be created at Republic of China." I think this is an eminently sensible, if not (in my view) ideal solution to the issue. Can anyone shed any light on why this part of the original decision was not carried out?

Alternatively, the previous position as Readin pointed out is also preferrable to the current situation.

Either of these solutions would be preferrable to the current situation, which, as CommInt'l emphasises, whether intentionally or not, privileges only the Communist Party view of the ROC as a local authority of Taiwan and a different insitution to the ROC which existed before 1949. I really don't think that is either in accordance with Wikipedia policy or the spirit of the administrators' decision in February 2012.

(Wildcursive, there is no need to educate me about the political situation, I assure you I am sufficiently familiar with it.)

My preferred proposal would be to carry out the part of the administrators' decision in February 2012 quoted above, that is to create a summary article at Republic of China, narrowly focused perhaps on the government and its continuous history from 1912, with appropriate references to this article as the main "country" article, and the history articles mentioned above.

(In light of the administrators' decision in February 2012, I am not suggesting turning Taiwan into a geography article and Republic of China into a political article.)

In light of the administrators' decision in February 2012, I think this should be non-controversial implementation rather than some sort of attempt to re-write the consensus. Your thoughts?--PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 16:25, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

The original RoC article (this) was written as such until the 1912-1949 article was created and everything pre-1949 was ported there (without extreme controversy). When this article was renamed as 'Taiwan' from 'Republic of China', the original stance by the admins was that this article was to talk about the Republic of China as a whole, with only the title to be renamed as 'Taiwan'. However, some people jumped ship and created the (mainland RoC) article and ported everything there. Creating another 'RoC as a whole' article will be very controversial, and to be honest, people are tired of arguing for this and that. You can try to write one, but you will see a lot of hate coming from most of the community (Greens will argue RoC = Taiwan, Reds will argue RoC = dead, Blues are just not there anymore to back you up). The most realistic thing you can achieve is probably to ask to rewrite 'Republic of China' as a disambigulation article. 204.126.132.241 (talk) 16:55, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Anon, I think you are mis-interpreting the original decision, it clearly had three parts: "Taiwan = country article", "Taiwan (island) = geography article", and "Republic of China = government/history article". This isn't about political lines, it's about implementing the decision that was supposed to substitute for a consensus in the absence of one. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 17:36, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

The original decision specifically said that only the article was to be renamed due to naming protocols. However, the Admins also acknowleged that this does not mean RoC = Taiwan, and that the article per NPOV policy is to still continue refer to the RoC as RoC. But many people jumped the gun saying RoC != Taiwan before 1949 and wella, you have this article created and a bunch of other overlapping mirrors. Liu Tao (talk) 02:52, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Actually, Reds will argue ROC = dead and Greens will also argue ROC = dead. The former sees Taiwan as their province and the latter sees Taiwan as their nation/country. Both want to erase the ROC which is what probably got us to this point in terms of these articles. Blues have to counter both fronts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.174.144 (talk) 19:05, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

I believe the PRCs position right now is that the ROC is a local government within the PRC. And the greens are divided with some claiming the ROC is illegitimate while others believe it is merely has an anachronistic name. Readin (talk) 21:02, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Nay, PRC's position is that the RoC is a separatist government who refuses to submit to the rule of the 'Central Government' in Beijing. Greens are divided particularily over if RoC = Taiwan. Ironically, the far-left agrees with the Blues that RoC != Taiwan. It's the more moderate Greens who thinks RoC = Taiwan. But all in all, they all have one goal, Taiwan independence. Moderates wants to do it by renaming the RoC to Taiwan. Deep Greens are more logical in terms of law, to declare the RoC non-existence and creation of a Taiwan Republic. Liu Tao (talk) 02:52, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree to rewrite 'Republic of China' as a disambigulation article to list related articles mentioned above. It can simply describe the evolution of who use this term. What I emphasized was the ROC established in mainland in 1912 without Taiwan is almost totally different from the ROC on TAIWAN since 1949 without mainland (except some minor areas for a brief period). There is no connection between the 1912 Beijing government and TAIWAN while the Nationalist government established not until 1925/1928. So there are actually roughly 4 periods: 1912 government in Beijing, 1928 Nationalist government, 1945-1949 ROC, ROC on TAIWAN since 1949. The separation of the original article "Republic of China" is based on history, geography, identity, politics, and all other realities. Rewrite a brief article as an existence can solve the problem to relink "Republic of China" on enwiki to "zh:中華民國" and relink "Taiwan" to "zh:臺灣". -- Wildcursive (talk) 21:20, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

No, "Republic of China" article should be created and maintained in addition to "Taiwan" article because the government's linage can be traced to the 1912 government formed in mainland China, and the constitution in-force today is written and ratified in mainland China while ROC was still recognized as the legitimized government of China. All other periods can be subsumed into this "Republic of China" to describe parts of its history. --Will74205 (talk) 00:00, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

I think a separate article to talk about the ROC as a government that ruled China, and then briefly Taiwan and China, and finally just Taiwan is a good idea. It should also talk about the modern day government. This would fit with "An article narrowly formulated about the government of Taiwan and its history". When the ROC moved from China to Taiwan it maintained many of its institutions, people and laws (whether or not those laws were followed).

However I think we'll have a hard time finding a way to satisfy some pan-blue editors. Since the Taiwan article is about the modern day nation/state, I can see pan-blue protests that Republic of China should redirect to that nation state because Republic of China is the official name of that nation-state. If we make Republic of China a disambiguation page some will protest that the Republic of China deserves better than that (I do have some sympathy for but as an American I would point out that even the America is a disambiguation page - I say I have sympathy because clearly the America page should be about the United States of America and I find it a bit insulting that it isn't). Readin (talk) 05:11, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

It's actually fairly easy to satisfy the Blues, right now they are on the defensive, not the offensive. Throughout the past several years, RoC related articles have slowly been 'Taiwanised'. The creation of this article and the renaming of the RoC as 'Taiwan' was the final straw for many Blues. Post-renaming, most blues actually argued for a disambigulation article, but the requests were largely ignored or shut down by the greens and reds. When disambigulation requests were ignored, this article split was created, with very poor judgements. Liu Tao (talk) 02:52, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I find the politically obsessed nature of some posts here amusing. I had never heard of the term pan-blue until just now, but I have very strong feelings about the naming of articles in this topic area. My views are all based on the basic Wikipedia principle of what the common name is. I just want to emphasise that one doesn't have to be deeply involved in the politics of the area to have a perfectly valid opinion based on Wikipedia policy. HiLo48 (talk) 09:54, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Well I'm pretty sure the average Taiwanese don't know the terms teabaggers and tories either. Those aware of Taiwanese/Cross-strait politics will be influenced by their viewpoints one way or another; it's not supposed to be as big of an issue as everyone seems to be making it (I don't see it as a problem anyway), but nonetheless you really shouldn't laugh it off either. Given that we're dealing with quite a contentious topic here, there's no doubt that some (not all) people will base their actions on whether they're pan-blue or pan-green leaning. Similarly, many people might deny it, but there are plenty of editors on Wikipedia that are vehemently pro-gun, anti-gun, pro-abortion, anti-Zionist as well. Topics like these attract those who are, by your words, "politically obsessed", and that's something you're gonna have to deal with. Not everyone is politically motivated to edit, but some editors definitely are. If you don't want to be part of the mess, that's fine. Don't go around dismissing others' genuine concerns. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 11:51, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

The hilarious bit is that those whose editing is purely politically motivated think everybody else's is too, and that to edit here one must be part of one side or the other. I have very strong views in many political areas. (Although obviously not Taiwan/China issues.) I like to think I keep my views out of my editing. During the recent US Presidential campaign I was accused many times by both sides of being a supporter of the other as I kept pathetic political nonsense, incredibly distorted perspectives, and simply blatant lies out of the articles on the major candidates. I try to do the same for every topic. So I laugh at those who write as if all editors are as motivated as they are to make these articles non-NPOV. HiLo48 (talk) 21:12, 24 February 2013 (UTC)