Jump to content

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Sources

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Dustinmcgowen (talk | contribs) at 18:04, 28 June 2013 (→‎BoomPopMedia). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

See also: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard


Shortcut

This talk page is for discussing the reliability of sources for use in video game articles. If you are wondering if a video game source is reliable enough to use on Wikipedia, this is the place to ask.

When posting a new topic, please add a link to the topic on the Video Game Sources Checklist after the entry for the site. If an entry for the site does not exist, create one for it and include the link to the topic afterward. Also, begin each topic by adding {{subst:find video game sources|...site name...|linksearch=...site URL...}} in order to provide other users with some easily accessible links to check up on the source.

Click here to start a new discussion thread


Foreign language sources for consideration

-- Atlantima ~✿~ (talk) 16:00, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For sources like this, input from native speakers is usually extremely helpful. There aren't too many of us that hang out in WP:VG/RS and there's a much better chance of finding a native speaker of any non-English languages at the general WT:VG. So you might consider posting a request there pointing to this thread. If no native speakers can be located at WT:VG, it might also be worthwhile posting a request at the WikiProjects devoted to those languages. If we can find native speakers who are established editors here (or who clearly understand WP:RS) and they can vouch for the reliability of the source then this is strong evidence in its favor.
Anyway with that said, I took a look at them and below are my observations. Full disclosure: I am not familiar with any of these languages.
  • XaLuan - (cited 118 times at vi.wiki, "Gamer Worlds" section cited 0 times) - I can't find much information on editorial policy or the author. The name listed is Kitty (Theo Gamek) and our other RSes have never cited this person. Both the single name (Kitty) and the 2-part name (Theo Gamek) look pseudonymous to me. We'd probably need more info on the author if this is to pass as an RS.
  • Spill.no - (cited 945 times at no.wiki) - The editorial policy can be found here and the lead editor, Jon Cato Lorentzen, appears to have some reasonable credentials (he reviews games for Aftenposten and several Norwegian magazines, and according to IGN he's served on the jury for the Nordic Game Awards). This looks good to me. I think this is an RS.
  • BuddhaGaming - (cited 21 times at it.wiki) - Editorial policy and staff can be found here. I can't find much info on the lead editor, Fabio Colajanni, nor indeed any of the other staff. I think we'd need more info on the writers before passing this as an RS.
  • SpazioGames - (cited 210 times at it.wiki) - Staff list can be found here, but I don't see an editorial policy listed. I also don't find any citations from our RSes to the Director, Editorial Manager, Editor in Chief, of the lead editors for the News, Portables, or Apple sections. I didn't check through all of the editors listed at the bottom, but generally I think we'd need more info on the writers to presume any kind of reliability.
  • Gnn.gamer.com.tw - (cited 120 times at zh.wiki) - I think the editorial policy is spelled out here, but it looks like this is instructions to the general public about how to submit content which makes me wonder if this is just user-generated content. Certainly it's professionally presented, though. I guess I'm not really sure what to make of it. Another troubling aspect is that the authors (when listed) seem to only use single names like "Sam" or "Lu". I haven't found a staff list, but I think that would be critical here to check credentials. This one I'm the least certain about and outside views would be appreciated.
Hope that helps. -Thibbs (talk) 17:05, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That Gamer.com.tw link actually says that the staff would promote news submissions to the front page from the contributor's user blog, given that the post meets the criteria listed in the page. Looking at the articles, it seems that it's not an uncommon practice, but they do seem to list "GNN 記者 *** 報導" (Reported by GNN reporter ***) if it was written by one of their staff (seen in this article about Watch Dogs) Arguably, that's also how Kotaku runs things, so it might still be a RS, especially with all that corporate whatnot. -- クラウド６６８ 18:33, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Artices at gnn.gamer.com.tw are written by reporter, contributing editor (特約編輯, like this one), or reprint/translate from other site (本新聞經 xxx 同意授權轉載 / This news was repeint from xxx with permission, like this). Right, some rticles are choose from user blog, these article are at home.gamer.com.tw, in gnn main page's article list, purple icons "投" (contribution/post) are in the end of these title, it's easily to be seeked for Chinese (and Japanese) user.--Wangxuan8331800 (talk) 14:06, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you クラウド６６８ and Wangxuan8331800 for the help. The fact that the info is not user-generated is certainly encouraging. Can you see if there is any clear editorial policy? Is there any editorial oversight or other structural oversight to the organization? And do the authors have any credentials listed? Are they video game journalists or industry insiders or are they just fans? Have they listed any awards or other forms of recognition from reliable (print?) sources? How long have they been in existence? Some positive information on these topics would go a long way toward establishing reliability. -Thibbs (talk) 16:01, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

gamesradar.blog.com

User:Robertpattinsons is adding this ref to multiple articles, and appears to be the only user using it, including some sketchier edits as he did in PlayStation Blog. I believe it's possibly spam, I don't know why Gamesradar would be using Blog.com, their main site seems fine? Seeking opinion before I go reverting. -- ferret (talk) 12:14, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nevermind, his user page full of bogus barnstars and other stuff outright claims "my gaming blog" -- ferret (talk) 12:17, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Future's legal team will have fun with that blog name. - X201 (talk) 12:32, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ifixit

See ifixit. Its a blog that tears down video game systems and reports on what they find, especially on new consoles. Back when the 3DS first came out, there was consensus was that it was not useable. However, when I tried to remove it from the Vita article, it was contested. I noticed we didn't really have a definite discussion on it, so I started this up.

On one hand, it's just a random guy's blog. On the other hand, its been featured in reliable sources like PC World, as seen here. I'm leaning towards unreliable. Thoughts? Sergecross73 msg me 14:19, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't normally play into this as a deciding factor, but its global Alexa rank is 6,624, with over 9,000 linkbacks. That's ridiculously high for "a random guy's blog". That's higher than Destructoid (which is situational), and up there near Kotaku and Joystiq. On the other hand, this is contributor-based. Therefore I'd say it is only reliable in the instance that a reliable source cites it, and then the reliable source itself should be cited. Bottom line: the press seems to trust it, but it's contributor-based content keeps itself from being reliable. Cite the press site. --Teancum (talk) 15:14, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Likewise, I have added BoomPopMedia as a potential source for information (Full disclosure, I know the editor-in-chief quite well and have contributed articles from time to time) because it appears to have a staff of ~20 writers and an Alexa rank below 150,000. AtlasBurden (talk) 15:26, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh, it's _not_ a "random guy's blog". That's specifically the point I was _trying_ to make back when you originally made that assumption. Please try to understand it's an actual company with _multiple_ guide contributors. As to what comes to other people creating guides, they do have some clear guidelines: How to Make an Awesome Guide, Creating a Repair Guide.
It's probably a good thing you started this discussion to educate yourself a bit about iFixit, but a simple googling would've sufficed. --Diblidabliduu (talk) 16:38, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Please assume good faith Diblidabliduu. Яehevkor ✉ 16:57, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Alright, a "random guys blog" may have been a bit off, (Note: every time I've written that, its been before you joined the conversation, by the way, its not a label I'm sticking too.) but what you've said doesn't address whether or not it meets the standards for what qualifies as a Wikipedia-standard reliable source. What you linked to above was not a "staff" list, its a list of anyone who's ever signed up to write one of their guides, something anyone can do. They may have some instructions on how to write a guide, but I haven't found any proof of "editorial oversight", another key factor needed to be considered a RS. Sergecross73 msg me 16:57, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's because I didn't link a "staff" list. As for the editorial board thing, it seems like this thing works a lot more like StackOverflow, meaning they have their own rep system, which gives you more privileges on moderating the site as you gain more of it.
Also, an admin always has to accept a guide before it's moved from the "New Guides" section (accessible only to admins). That is, even if it was an admin that created it, though it's not clear whether they can accept it themselves.
E: Just to add, that guide was created by a "Chief Information Architect" of iFixit (author links clickable in iFixit.org articles). --Diblidabliduu (talk) 18:06, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
After being asked to give my two cents, and after watching this discussion for a few hours, I'm inclined to agree with User:Teancum. --GSK ● ✉ ✓ 22:10, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I support Teancum's stance as well. (Its a common belief that, if a reliable source reports on something from a questionable source, the editorial oversight of the reliable source has fact checked the information of the other source, so its useable.) Sergecross73 msg me 00:35, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Jeuxvideo24

Is this site possibly reliable? Satellizer el Bridget ツ 06:42, 3 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sourcing the games, official sources, and Kotaku

I would like to talk about these three related things. I believe the VG/S policy on the subject/s is in error.

A game can not be treated as a primary source, because as a product, it is the actual subject of an article about that product. This also tends to put it above any external source as far as information on the thing goes, provided there are no claims or interpretation being made. Sourcing it for certain data is in no way original research, much as sourcing a book for certain passages or a film for certain quotes. Names, years, specific lines of text, and images (as long as they're not doctored, of course; that's all about trust in humanity) are all great examples of stuff that generally do not require a claim or interpretation; it's right there in the game and is as accessible as the game itself is, which is something that goes for just about any product ever.

That last bit is particularly important, as the policy specifically mentions that instruction booklets and the like essentially supersede the actual subject in this way... why? There's nothing wrong with mentioning the manual, of course; it came with the game, after all. But video game articles are about the game program itself, not necessarily the manual that came with or after it. It would generally be accurate to treat the game over the instruction booklet or the box, especially if there's a disconnect. For example, the game program for Sonic the Hedgehog CD does indeed use "Sonic the Hedgehog CD" as the title, and this supersedes whatever the box has to say on the matter.

Now, official sources might be considered to be "self-published sources", but only so under WP:SPS's second definition, which does not itself inherently put such an SPS above or below any external source. What does is how related that source is to the creator of the subject; as per above, the instruction manual or box that came with the game is second only to the game itself, and a website would be second to that. This even applies to download-only games; any readme.txt, HTML-based document, or .pdf-based manual contained within should be treated much the same as a physical instruction booklet; websites should be treated the same as well. Really, the only requirement to all this is that the entire article isn't completely based on them, and I'm not even sure that's really possible except for extremely niche topics.

Now... Kotaku. I've noticed that Kotaku seems to be making up their own titles even when there are valid official titles available. Here are some good examples: creating a "C1 NES TV" even as we have official names like "マイコンピュータテレビC1" and "Sharp Nintendo Television", also creating a "SF-1 SNES TV" for consistency even as we have "スーパーファミコン内蔵テレビSF1" as an official name, and even using Famicom World as a source even though the article on it doesn't mention any "C1 NES TV" and last I checked isn't an RS for WPVG; then, the more recent case of using "Deadmaus" instead of the correct "deadmau5"--something that's actually supported by other reliable sources on that topic--and even, as a source, puts down an article that does use "deadmau5". I'm sure I could find more examples. At any rate, what this all tells me is that Kotaku does not do basic fact-checking and is overriding official names for whatever they want to come up with. As the whole point of a reliable source is that they can be shown to seek accuracy, I'm starting to question whether Kotaku can even be considered one, at least for the sake of deciding the common name of a thing. Your thoughts? Despatche (talk) 13:11, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Video games and their instruction booklets are primary sources by definition of what a primary source is. That doesn't make either less important in determining a proper title, but we do have to be aware that there can be disconnects between the game media and the instruction booklet due to changes between press and publication. The examples at Kotaku seem isolated (heck, in the Deadmau5/Deadmaus story, the side link uses "5" over "s" that the main story has) and no basis to discredit them as an RS just because they have certain names for something that conflict with others. If this is an issue with a naming dispute, we have other wiki-wide policies in place for those. --MASEM (t) 13:22, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • A game can definitely be treated as a reliable source in a number of cases. It's a published medium, so it can be cited and as long as we restrict the use of it to issues which it would be authoritative on without conducting any subjective interpreting, it's fine. The places where a video game can best be used as a source are within the article on the game itself (usually together with quotations from the game and used to source plot), and rarely within other closely-related articles (e.g. I believe the notes from the trophies in Super Smash Bros could be taken as official claims from Nintendo regarding other games about which the claims are made). Naturally if sources conflict then some kind of a balancing will have to take place.
    Some of what Despatche said above, though, I disagree with. The use of the Sonic the Hedgehog CD game code/program would probably not be an appropriate way to determine the title of that article, for example. The standard (conventional) game-specific place to find the publisher's intended title of a video game is on its label or the spine of its case. The use of third party Reliable Sources may also be required if there is conflict regarding which of several titles should be used. Wikipedia's policy on this question is WP:UCN.
    Regarding Kotaku, it should be noted that they are a video-game-oriented website, and so their name for the musician Deadmau5/Deadmaus wouldn't carry much or any weight in a musical context. As for the issue about the Sharp Nintendo Televisions, first of all a Television is different from a video game in that televisions don't really have titles as such. They may have names or expressions that are used exclusively by the manufacturer (usually a trademarked term like "Quattron" or "Aquos"), but in my view the best place to look for official terms for non-named products like this is in third-party RSes. Secondly, I think it's important to note that this question is closely related to an ongoing RfC which can be found here. I'll recuse myself from discussing the reliability of Kotaku on the merits as I'm an involved party in that RfC. -Thibbs (talk) 13:46, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with looking to the published material first is that it's not the actual product itself. The publisher had to verify the game program before it could be put on a physical medium and shipped, and per the previous, the game program would supersede the material.
While Kotaku is indeed a video game-focused website, they still chose to write a subject on deadmau5, so they would have to do the same kind of basic fact-checking.
The brand name of a television is just as valid as the name of any other product; why exactly is "Trinitron" less of an official name than "Sega Saturn"?
Other than that, I don't really understand what a potential RfC has to do with this; this is all removed from that individual discussion. If you're suggesting bias, I don't see how I could avoid being pegged as biased anyway. Despatche (talk) 14:19, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The brand name of a television is determined by looking at the trademark registry. Trademarking is the legal way to protect a brand from use by competitors. Trinitron and Sega Saturn are almost certainly trademarked. And the RfC was only brought up to suggest that this isn't a casual question. I think your interests in knocking down Kotaku relate to your interest in censoring the common name used in the English-language sources. -Thibbs (talk) 14:51, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The brand name of a television is determined by looking at the television or the box it came in/manual it came with/etc; a trademark is just further proof. I don't have any particular interest in "knocking down" Kotaku (so now you accuse me), I'm only worried about the meaning of a "reliable source". I am also not attempting to "censor" anything except what has been proven a hundred times to be errors. Despatche (talk) 15:00, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The trademarking of a term is what distinguishes it as a brand in the first place and not just its inclusion on a box. A trademark registry would also be a reliable source for the brand name whereas a box is open to interpretation. And I'll retract my accusations if since you refute them. All I'll say is that if Kotaku was declared unreliable it might coincidentally advance your cause in the RfC. Perhaps you never intended such a thing. I disagree that anything has been proved to be in error even once much less hundreds of times, but that's a content issue which is relevant to the RfC, not VG/RS. -Thibbs (talk) 15:20, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
How am I supposed to refute a pure opinion? I have said time and time again that I would otherwise accept Kotaku as a reliable source. Also, it's pretty clear you see this as a fight and I'm trying to "advance my position"; I certainly don't with either, so what's up with that? Yes, if Kotaku was declared unreliable to any extent, then the RfC would have to be closed as all the sources supporting "C1 NES TV" would be similarly declared such. That doesn't suggest any kind of malicious intent on anyone's part; it just shows how much this is all connected, and why a particular question or comment needs to be brought up everywhere it possibly can, so each community can provide their input on the issue. Despatche (talk) 16:04, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"How am I supposed to refute a pure opinion?" Using countervailing reliable sources just like normal. I'll have to take your word for it that none of this has anything to do with the RfC. I'm not interested in a fight. -Thibbs (talk) 16:15, 8 June 2013 (UTC) (Note: I just altered my wording above because I think I confused you regarding my intent. -Thibbs (talk) 16:52, 8 June 2013 (UTC))[reply]
I'm looking at various definitions of "primary source", and they all only seem to consider the idea of using objects to help explain events. There's nothing that mentions using that object to explain itself.
Sorry I could only find a few examples, they just happened to be available. If I ever find more, I'll start a list. That the sidelink uses "deadmau5" (actually, they use "Deadmau5") seems to make it even worse; there's a lack of consistency here too, and that really doesn't make sense since this is an online publication that can be edited at any time by them, so surely someone's going through and copyediting even after the article's gone out?
As for the first example/s, it is consistently used throughout the article and by a number of reliable sources and simple mentions that all have publish dates after Kotaku's article, except for a bit by GoNintendo (stated to be published the day before); there's no other conclusion but either they or GoNintendo (not currently considered a reliable source) created the name, and essentially created the entire common name themselves. There's strong evidence of this here, one of the three presented sources that uses the exact same "SF-1 SNES TV" term that Kotaku had used before (none of the official material hints at a hyphen). While I understand that getting an official name might not be so easy, I find it hard to believe that there was nothing Kotaku could do to obtain it, especially since they managed to put a corrupted form of it in their article anyway.
I do believe that it's appropriate to bring this up, as it's specifically about Kotaku as a reliable source, and names are a particularly obvious way to determine fact-checking. Now, I can understand cutting out fancy characters, but we have a intentionally fabricated title that doesn't reflect the subject and we already have two valid official names, and an intentional spelling error (as "Deadmaus" is used consistently within the article) that is inconsistent with another published article. I think that goes beyond a general name dispute from somewhere else, which is why I brought it here (I was actually asked to at that dispute). I'm not looking to trash the whole of Kotaku over this, but I think we should start being a little more skeptical of these guys at least for names. Despatche (talk) 14:19, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'll still refrain from addressing Kotaku's reliability here, but I just wanted to point out that the hyphen in "SF-1" which it is alleged Kotaku made up also shows up in earlier Famitsu articles (see example). -Thibbs (talk) 14:51, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
And now you're being selective. I never suggested Kotaku made up "SF-1", I suggested Kotaku made up "SF-1 SNES TV". Remember when you said you wanted to keep the content on the content page? I certainly did just that, until you decided that it was so important to this issue. Despatche (talk) 15:00, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
From the RfC we both had a deeper knowledge about the origins of the hyphen which you had used above as a mark against Kotaku. My comment was neither intended to provoke more RfC-related responses from you nor was it intended to got to Kotaku's status as an RS. I'll pipe up on issues I know might fly under the radar like that but otherwise I'm leaving the debate over Kotaku alone. -Thibbs (talk) 15:20, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

BoomPopMedia

Find video game sources: "BoomPopMedia" – news · books · scholar · images – VGRS · WPVG Talk · LinkSearch · CrossWiki · LinkTo I would like to nominate BoomPopMedia as a potential source for information (Full disclosure, I know the editor-in-chief quite well and have contributed articles from time to time) because it appears to have a staff of ~20 writers and an Alexa rank below 150,000. There is a significant amount of video game content and on some search queries (such as Titanfall) they are one of the first results. AtlasBurden (talk) 15:26, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

(Talk page conversation) User:AtlasBurden recently added "BoomPopMedia" and "Titanfall Report" links to several game articles (contribs), and I requested their removal. The site is a simple WordPress blog with no editorial oversight. The site's news rehashes that of other sites as a tertiary source. It doesn't have an editorial policy other than a disclaimer and its authors are not reputable within the industry or journalism. czar · · 15:53, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I noticed that your account is new. Remember that this isn't a vote and that Wikipedia decides by consensus. It also helps to make an argument from WP policy instead of from personal feelings, which everyone has. czar · · 16:31, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Also please remember to disclose any potential conflicts of interest on Wikipedia: http://boompopmedia.com/index/author/dustinmcgowen/ czar · · 16:36, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Also note that "seeing no reason not to include them" is not the same as "seeing a reason to include them". To be listed as an RS, there must be some kind of showing that the source is in fact reliable. We don't presume all sources are RSes until proven unreliable. Of course the basic presumption isn't that they are specifically unreliable either, but rather they are presumed to be non-RSes (i.e. not necessarily filled with blatant falsehoods and inaccuracies, but not demonstrably reliable either). So you'll have to base a "support" !vote on facts going to the source's reliability, not just your inability to determine their unreliability. -Thibbs (talk) 16:50, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't write about video games, so I didn't see a conflict of interest. They do really good work on the video game side, and I don't think they're a bunch of liars. Sorry. - dustinmcgowen
  • Oppose. Definitely not a reliable source. It appears this is an attempt to use Wikipedia to promote the site. A bit weird that User:Dustinmcgowen has appeared out of nowhere to defend an almost entirely unknown website on an obscure part behind the scenes of Wikipedia.. Яehevkor ✉ 16:31, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Video_games/Sources&oldid=561999760"