Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography

Common name, birth name and post-nominal initials

I noticed an editor making a excellent job of cleaning up bios to conform with the MOS. In one case Mark Evaloarjuk, I notice that the style guide does not give any information as to the correct format. Is the current oepning correct, with the exception that "nee" should be "ne", or should it be '''Mark Evaloarjuk''' (né '''Evaluarjuk'''), [[Order of Canada|CM]] (died [[July 3]], [[2002]] By the way would it be possible to rewrite Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Maiden names so that it applied to both women and men?

Is birth length and weight relevant?

Is the subject's birth length and weight relevant biographical information? Is it relevant when the subject is not a baby? Surtsicna (talk) 20:59, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd say no, except if that actually affected the person's life. --NaBUru38 (talk) 01:40, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

For an adult, no, but for someone who is still a baby (e.g. the new Prince George of Cambridge) then yes, it's a widely-quoted statistic. As he gets older then it will no longer be relevant. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:03, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

What about a 7-year-old? Definitely not a baby anymore. Surtsicna (talk) 12:05, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

See Category:Wrestlers and Category:Jockeys.

—Wavelength (talk) 14:35, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, that sums it up! Surtsicna (talk) 19:51, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

RfC on style in royal family templates

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should templates in Category:Royal and noble family templates use the article titles or the honorifics? Fram (talk) 14:10, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

The above is the required neutral statement of the RfC subject, the below is my reason for starting this and my position on this: according to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies#Honorific prefixes, "In general, styles and honorifics should not be included in front of the name". There is no reason why these links to other articles should be in the honorific format instead of the normal article title format. I tried to change this on Template:British Royal Family and Template:Belgian Royal Family, but got reverted. A discussion at Template talk:British Royal Family#Removal of HM/HRH followed. Note also problems like the "Prince Harry" / "Prince Henry" discussion[1], where the template doesn't follow the article title.

For consistency, neutrality, and clarity, I propose that these templates should always use the article titles and nothing but the article titles, dropping all honorifics and all variations of titles and names. Fram (talk) 14:18, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose although I agree that honorifics should largely be confined to the section on titles and styles in articles on royalty and nobility, and I strongly agree that the names of titleholders should be clearly included in their links (i.e., "Margrethe II of Denmark" not "The Queen", "Anne, Princess Royal" not "The Princess Royal") both because specific names make links more useful for the readership and because many honorifics are styles peculiar to each royal court whence they originate and where they may be de rigueur, but Wikipedia is international and should refer to royalty encyclopaedically rather than according to national court protocols. However templates need not be compelled to regurgitate article titles verbatim, which are chosen primarily based on ease of recognition for the uninitiated reader rather than on accuracy, whereas I think templates can sometimes afford to communicate more factual or clarifying information. For instance in the case of the Duchesses in Bavaria, some of whom, for ease of recognition, are located at articles which which use their married rather than maiden titles or which incorrectly refer to them as "of" rather than "in Bavaria" (e.g., Elisabeth, Empress of Austria), Maria Sophie of Bavaria, Elisabeth of Bavaria, Queen of Belgium). Templates might be allowed to deviate from article names to give correct name/title (not style). FactStraight (talk) 17:50, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
• No/oppose, mainly per FactStraight, but also due to the arguments I made at Template talk:British Royal Family#Removal of HM/HRH. While I agree that nobody should be referred to as "Her Excellency", "His Majesty" or "Her Imperial Highness" in the running text, it doesn't hurt to include royal styles in templates that list members of a royal family. I believe it's actually rather helpful, because it helps understand the hierarchy. Take Template:Danish Royal Family for example; the head of the family is a "Majesty", while her spouse and the first six people in the line of succession and their spouses are "Royal Highnesses"; the monarch's middle sister is also a "Royal Highness" but the youngest is yet another "Majesty", as the wife of a former head of state; finally, those who are last in the pecking order are mere "Highnesses". The distinction is obviously important and readers benefit from seeing it. Surtsicna (talk) 19:45, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Surtsicna's argument here is persuasive on the benefits of (limited) use of honorifics in royalty templates, and I subscribe to it as informative/clarifying with the proviso that the individual names, not merely titles, of persons be used (i.e. "HRH Henrik, the Prince Consort" not "HRH The Prince Consort"). FactStraight (talk) 20:18, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Wouldn't that lead to some completely inaccurate (and rather silly) names such as "HRH Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge" or "HRH Marie-Christine, Princess Michael of Kent"? Surtsicna (talk) 20:26, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

No, not silly at all. It may, however, lead to formats which don't comply with a court's protocol, such as "HRH Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge". Omission of the HRH still leaves that title in violation, however (i.e., wives of princes, especially those not themselves born princesses, only use their given names at the Court of St. James's in widowhood or divorce). But since that format tells the reader which Duchess of Cambridge the article is about before opening it, it seems a worthwhile breach of British etiquette. "HRH Marie-Christine, Princess Michael of Kent" would be a form that is never used in real life and that is unnecessary disambiguation: her title/style suffice to distinguish her to readers ("HRH Princess Michael of Kent"), although I fully understand that it irks many who consider it too sexist for the 21st century. FactStraight (talk) 01:38, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Not only too sexist, also much less clear for non-royalty buffs, and giving undue deference. There is no need at all to give the styles in the infobox. Frederik, Crown Prince of Denmark is a lot clearer than HRH The Crown Prince, and HRH should only be used in official, protocol-based instances, not when writing an encyclopedia about these people. Do you have spontaneously any idea who HRH The Count of Paris is, or whether his HRH has any legitimacy? Using Henri d'Orléans, Count of Paris is more neutral, factual, and clearer for readers who are not deeply versed in the different French royal pretenders. Fram (talk) 06:49, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• As far as the British (and probably the Belgian) template goes, I find it works well as it is, informing readers of the people's "correct" titles and HRH status, and remaining compact and concise. Article titles have different functions to perform and will not always be most suitable for a template. Different templates might have different needs, so "HRH The Count of Paris" might not be most suitable on a template for whatever topic he would come under. We don't need universal rules. (Coming back to the British template, I can't see why the Wessexs' children should be listed and not the Princess Royal's, but I suppose that's not what this discussion is about.) W. P. Uzer (talk) 18:00, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Regarding the Wessexs' children - neither do I. I'd support removing them. Surtsicna (talk) 19:14, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Because the Wessex children, despite being styled as children of a non-royal peer, are still male-line descendants of the monarch. Female-line descendants of a monarch or their siblings aren't considered royal unless these titles are specifically granted to them (ie, Princess Alexandra, Duchess of Fife's daughters, or Princess Margriet of the Netherlands's sons. Peter and Zara are not, by birth, entitled to the style and title of a Prince/ss of the United Kingdom; James and Louise, as male line descendants, are. That's the main difference and probably the reason why they're included. Morhange (talk) 21:26, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
    • Thank you for that explanation, but I'm still not convinced that this technical difference (particularly since the latter two do not in fact take the title of Prince/ss) is likely to lead to any actual difference in readers' interest in finding out about the persons in question. W. P. Uzer (talk) 11:01, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
    • Yes, I understand that "male-line" argument but I too am unconvinced. The Wessexs' children are obviously not intended to be treated as royals, making them as royal as Anne's children - at least for the purpose of inclusion in the template. They are not "Royal Highnesses", which is the criterium for inclusion. Surtsicna (talk) 11:08, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
• Use article titles – I can see no reason, nor does it seem anybody has offered one, why these templates should disregard MOS:BIO. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:27, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Two people have offered reasons why these templates should not list people merely by article titles. Whether or not you agree with them is another matter, but they are there. Also, this does not "disregard MOS:BIO". According to MOS:BIO, "in general, styles and honorifics should not be included in front of the name." The guideline allows for exceptions, and this one is a perfectly reasonable exception because, among other things, it aids readers in understanding factual information. Surtsicna (talk) 11:37, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
    • In fact, as a reader, the current infoboxes (with the HRHs and without the names, or with different names than the article titles) doesn't aid me in "understanding factual information", it confuses the heck out of me and makes it a lot harder to find out who is intended by the titles. In what way is it supposed to aid me (and which is lacking in the alternative of using article titles)? Fram (talk) 11:52, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
      • Do you want me to copy-paste what I wrote above about Template:Danish Royal Family and how mentioning styles such as Majesty, Royal Highness and Highness help readers understand the hierarchy of family members? Surtsicna (talk) 12:04, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
        • No, it didn't work for me the first time. Looking at the template, I see some HRHs and some HHs, but this doesn't indicate the line of succession (e.g. Henrik, Prince Consort of Denmark would not become king on the death or abdication of his wife), nor does it indicate the family tree (which is given by the indentations mainly). The only thing the HRHs and HHs seem to indicate, is who can be styled HRH and HH. That is information which should be included (and is included) in the separate articles, but hardly what the infobox is for. On the other hand, Frederik, Crown Prince of Denmark is much more informative than HRH The Crown Prince, and Queen Anne-Marie of Greece is much more informative than HM The Queen of the Hellenes. Fram (talk) 12:16, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
          • • Same here; I have exactly the same problems understanding Surtsicna's argument in favour using styles. I have the impression that usage may be very useful to those versed in these matters, but leaving the rest utterly baffled. Question is: who needs a navigation box more? (Aside: having a single entry, the link to the template "The Royal Family of Greece", hidden in the template "Danish Royal Family" seems, eh, quirky; 1) either they belong or they don't; 2) I'm pretty sure navigation boxes are only supposed to link to articles.) -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:45, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
          • It isn't supposed to indicate the line of succession. It is supposed to indicate precedence, and it does so. Children of the former, the present and the future monarch, as well as their spouses, are distinguished from the rest of the family. Those are not arbitrarily chosen words. Besides, what you are proposing would introduce a very annoying redundancy. In Template:Danish Royal Family, for example, the word "Denmark" would be repeated 16 times. I'm sure that, by the time it's repeated for the 5th time, everyone's thought would be: "Okay, I get it, this is the Danish Royal Family!" Surtsicna (talk) 12:28, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
            • Common sense would suggest to omit all the suffixes "of Denmark" -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:45, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
              • Yes, piped links to avoid such redundancy would of course be allowed (or encouraged). But why is "precedence" of so much importance (more important than e.g. line of succession?) When reading about a member of a royal family, I may be interested in easy links to the main living members of the family; but how often would their precedence be of so much interest that I have to have that information in this article? The order of precedence isn't even included in the articles on individual family members, but it is so important that it has to be included in the infobox, never mind that for most people, it will be utterly unclear that that is the intended meaning? By the way, the article Danish order of precedence (the correct place to have that information, but also violating the MOSBIO on honorifics) has a different list, omitting the Greek Queen. Fram (talk) 12:55, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
                • Let's assume that the precedence is of interest only 2% of the time. Is that a reason to deny that information to readers? Even if the intended meaning were utterly unclear, it's still not misleading or misinformative in any way. On the other hand, how does the removal of such styles help anyone? The fact that these people are socially entitled to certain forms of address should not be entirely ignored, and by including it only in these templates (and nowhere else), we allow readers to compare the article subject's style with the styles his relatives are entitled to. The inclusion does not hurt anyone, while the exclusion would be unhelpful - if only 2% of the time. Surtsicna (talk) 13:42, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
                  • The inclusion hurts because as they stand, most of these templates are not clear to the average reader as to who they are about (using honorifics and titles instead of names), and give the impression that Wikipedia believes precedence and honorifics to be so important as to be the main identifying method for these persons. It isn't true that we aren't including it "nowhere else", each article on a member of the royal family has a section on the titles and styles of address (and often an infobox with the same as well), and is is also included in the articles on the orders of precedence, where a better case can be made to said inclusion. Your claim that they are "socially entitled" (whatever that means) to these honorifics doesn't mean that we should give the impression that they are usually described or referred to as such. Is Henri d'Orléans, Count of Paris "socially entitled" to be addressed as HRH? That's very debatable, and can be discussed in his article. Simply including it in the family infobox is not the way to do this. Fram (talk) 14:09, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

With my German background, I understand "socially entitled". There, people are entitled to be addressed as "Prof.", "Dr." – to an astonishing degree: "Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Ulrich Sieber", but even the German Wikipedia eschews that style. As for Her Maj: I understand "Ma'am" will do, although Paul Hogan went probably too far in calling her "Libby". Back to the question at hand: as Fram wrote, names are much more helpful in navigation boxes for the average reader than style or precedence. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 14:56, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

• Don't include forms of address per Fram. Wikipedia already errs on the side of too much deference to royal titles. I'm not sure "just use article titles" works though; it certainly won't work for people whose article title references something else (e.g. a hypothetical royalty box for 1690s France shouldn't list the Duke of Anjou as "Philip V of Spain"), so I'm fine with each infobox picking a consistent style and running with it. (For example, both linked infoboxes above baffling omit a *name* for the sovereign, and the British one is almost all strictly titles, but I'm sure there's some good reason for that in rule 76.2b of titlology so will defer to the judgment of the maintainers). SnowFire (talk) 22:48, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Can we please keep the templates formal. Can we please restore the royal style infobo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.211.194.136 (talk) 23:19, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Contradiction between WP:OPENPARA and WP:BLPPRIVACY policy

The MOS guideline on dates of birth could be (and has been) interpreted by some to be in conflict with WP policy on biographies of living persons, specifically the policy on listing exact dates of birth found at WP:DOB. While ignoring rules is an important part of WP, it is widely accepted that policies trump guidelines; most editors would say that this is particularly true in the case of BLPs.

May I suggest adding to #2 under the opening paragraph section wording to effect of:

"In the case of biographies of living persons, consider the policy on dates of birth before including the exact birth date."

Any thoughts? -Wine Guy~Talk 15:36, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• comment - Policies don't necessarily trump guidelines, since both are written to reflect the community consensus. Of course, policies or guidelines may come in conflict, so it's up to the community to decide which one is most relevant. I think a useful description of the relationship between policies and guidelines may be found on Wikipedia:The difference between policies, guidelines and essays. Edge3 (talk) 01:43, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Petrarch's nationality

So, I edited the page to give Petrarch's correct nationality/citizenship in accordance with WP:OPENPARA, which reads in part: "In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable". Petrarch was born in, became notable in, and lived in until his death, the independent city-state of Arezzo. He was an Aretine throughout his life. My edit was, however, reverted by User:Rjensen with the comment "Petrarch helped invent the Italian language -- "Italian" does not mean citizenship (which did not exist) but culture".

I don't see anything in the guidance here which says that people should be attributed a nationality based on the language they are reputed to have helped to invent, nor that "culture" should replace citizenship in specific cases; the assertion that citizenship did not exist is one which I find highly dubious given the considerable importance attached to citizenship in Trecento Italy (see for example the citizenship of the Serenissima obtained de intus in 1334 by Iacopo Dondi), but that's one for the mediaeval scholars to deal with. I suggest that nationality or citizenship is based on the national entity of which the subject is a member or citizen. I further suggest that Petrarch is thus not a very good example here, as few will know what an Aretine is; and that these guidelines urgently need some careful thought and attention. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:37, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

the guideline expliictly says it is only about MODERN citizenship. It says nothing about the Petrarch era (Middle Ages). Her played a central role in defining what it meant to be Italian (ie using the Italian language). Rjensen (talk) 04:39, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

So what does the guideline say about nationality/citizenship in the Middle Ages? And where does it say it? (I ask because I can't see it) And if we agree that the modern era began approximately with the Renaissance, what makes Petrarch a useful example here? Especially if you are going to attribute to him a nationality that did not come into existence until some 550 years after he was born? I repeat, I suggest that these guidelines urgently need some careful thought and attention. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 09:26, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree that all attributions of nationality before the emergence of nation states, and often even after, are meaningless and misleading. On the other hand, it is necessary to place the subjects of biographical articles in some sort of geographical and cultural context. I think the opening sentence of the article on Petrarch achieves that. To use Petrarch in the current manner as an example in this MoS is wrong on at least two levels: 1) he wasn't Italian, and even if he was, linking that term is WP:OVERLINK; 2) linking to the disambiguation page Dark Ages is unhelpful. I sugest either to copy the first sentence from Petrarch's article into this MoS or, preferrably, replace his example with a less ambiguous and more clear cut one. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 09:46, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Replacing the example would certainly fix the current problem. However, I believe that some guidance here on how to deal with the nationality and/or citizenship of obscure defunct entities might be helpful; and that Petrarch might then be a useful example. The simplest solution would be to remove the word "modern-day" from the current guideline. I don't need to point out that citizenship was an important concept in parts of the Ancient world also. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 10:58, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Descriptions like "Italian" aren't necessarily citizenships or nationalities, they may simply indicate where the person came from (in terms of a "country" interpreted geographically or ethnically, rather than politically). I think that's entirely normal usage, even in scholarly writings. I agree, though, that the examples given here should agree with the text actually used in the article in question (I've just made one change to another part of this guideline on that basis). W. P. Uzer (talk) 12:38, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Despite the useful remarks above, this has now gone a while without further comment. Perhaps it doesn't matter? I'm not clear if there is consensus here to replace the present wording of the Petrarch example with the wording from the current version of the article, which, following an edit that I made there, gives his nationality/citizenship as Aretine. I suggest that we do that, and remove the word "modern-day" from the guideline as there is no reason to restrict it to modern examples. I'm no classical scholar, but I note that Xenophon is described here as "Greek", while Alcibiades is considered "Athenian"; is there any reason for such a discrepancy? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 10:00, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Possibly it has something to do with the fact that it is already noted in the first sentence of Xenophon that he was "of Athens". These introductions don't have to be written according to strict rules or universal algorithms, there are many variables that affect what is likely to be the most helpful selection and arrangement of information in a given situation. W. P. Uzer (talk) 12:44, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Use of first names

In an article like Dance Moms, the line between whether the dancers and mothers should be considered as "characters" or not. The issue is that in the article about the show, many of the subjects are only refereed to by first name only or by first and last once and then just first thereafter. If this was an article about the person, then we would be using only the last name throughout the rest of the article after the lead. However, if we treat them as characters in a work such as a movie, play, TV show, then we generally find it ok to use first names only to refer to them. For example, in Death of a Salesman we refer to Willy Loman (the character) as Willy. However, the actor that played him originally has his own article and there we use "Cobb." In the article for the play, we use Lee J. Cobb.

I am in the camp at the moment of thinking that we should treat them as we do any Living person (the show does present itself as "reality" even though parts of it, if not much of it is scripted). So, should the references to the individuals in the Dance Moms article be changed from first name only after the initial full name mention, to last name only after the first full name mention? The other problem being that, on the show they are referred to the majority of the time by only their first names. Thoughts? -Aaron Booth (talk) 03:21, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Here's my take on this... Given that the show's characters are real people and thus covered by WP:BLP, we should take into consideration the editing and portrayal of these people. In other words, scripting aside they are being represented in the way that the show's producer and directors want the cast portrayed for the sake of the success of each episode. That said, in the context of the show and when they are written about I see no issue with referring to them by their first name for clarity sake and continuity with the show. On the other hand, like you've already mentioned, if separate articles are created about these characters as themselves (including assumingly information about them outside of the show), then of course full BLP policy would apply and their last name would be used.

One more thing to consider (and I'm not familiar with the show at all) is that names used in the show may not be the names that these people use or go by in real life. For example, when other actors make reference to Robert De Niro on a show its not unusual for them to refer to De Niro as "Bobby" in familiar way. I don't know if he goes by Bobby, Bob, Robert, or Robbie in real life, but the truth is that the average person doesn't know either so it makes sense to use the same name used theatrically in the episode. Make sense? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 06:15, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:CREDENTIAL (Use of 'Dr' and 'PhD')

Recently I have been involved in a discussion about whether it is appropriate to use the terms 'Dr' and 'PhD' as an academic credential and postnomial respectively in an article about a research scientist. I had referred to WP:CREDENTIAL to point out that we invariably do not put 'Dr' and 'PhD' in articles (or in infoboxes). I was then told that this practice does exist in some articles and I did a search to check this out. The results of the search produced a fair number of examples. I'm not sure those articles should have that style (I will list them somewhere at some point) and I think those articles may have been written by people who were unaware of the preferred style. From a brief glance, I think some of the articles are borderline notable, and are examples of people using the credentials more the way you would in a CV, rather than in an encyclopedia article. Am I right in saying that 'Dr' and 'PhD' should be removed from those articles, or is there a reason to allow that style? Carcharoth (talk) 23:10, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

You are entirely correct. We don't use any academic titles or degree postnoms in articles and any that do exist should be removed. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:03, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

On the strength of this exchange I went ahead and removed a few occurrences of "Dr" and "PhD", along with some other post-nominal university degrees and the like. But I am not sure how to proceed in a case like Faraday Medal, which is anyway not a biography article so perhaps not covered by guidelines here. Should all, or some, or none of the post-nominals be removed? Is there guidance on this anywhere else in the MOS? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 16:05, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

And of course I did not expect all such removals to go unchallenged. Would anyone care to comment on this diff? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 16:38, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Child named for parent or predecessor: help?

The examples given were contradictory, confusing, and just plain wrong. Sammy Davis, Jr. uses the comma. And who exactly is "George Welton III"? There is no such article. This subject was last broached in a 20112 archive, where someone suggested using the comma and linking. I don't know offhand of a good example that doesn't use the comma.

And sometimes the suffix isn't used in the article title, even though there is evidence the person used it; for instance, Fulton Lewis was actually Fulton Lewis, Jr. (This sticks in my mind because of a 1960s Laugh-In joke where someone calls Sammy Davis Jr. "Fulton Lewis Jr.".

Another example is the radio and voice actor Alan Reed. This was a stage name he invented, until he had a son Alan Reed Jr., after which he used Alan Reed Sr. professionally. He was known and billed that way as the voice of Fred Flintstone, until his death.

Are there any policies or recomendations (consensus) about this, or is it pretty much catch-as-catch can? Can someone help, please? JustinTime55 (talk) 21:45, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

People who change their name

Under the section Names the sub-section Changed names tells editors to use "the name they were using at the time of the mention", but only when "a person is named in an article in which they are not the subject". I don't see where there is any instruction about what to do with a biography article where the person named is the subject. Many articles use name-at-the-time, so Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is referred to in his own article as "Alcindor" for descriptions of his life before the name change and "Abdul-Jabbar" for after. But John Wayne, who was born "Marion Morrison" and even credited in his first film as "Duke Morrison" is referred to as "Wayne" even when writing about his early years (eg; "As a teen, Wayne worked in an ice cream shop...."). With married names, Margaret Thatcher is referred to as "Roberts" (her birth name) for her life before marriage and "Thatcher" after, but Demi Moore is referred to as "Moore" throughout, even when describing meeting here future first husband ("Moore met musician Freddy Moore at the Los Angeles nightclub The Troubadour.") Cat Stevens is referred to as "Georgiou" (his birth name) for his pre-recording life, but hockey player Mike Danton is "Dantin" throughout, even though his birth name is "Jeffereson" and he was drafted into the NHL as "Mike Jefferson" (which the 2000 NHL Entry Draft page correctly reports).

So my question is: Is there any general style policy about what name to use for people in biography articles about them if they have changed names at some point in their lives? Are some of these articles doing it wrong, or is there no general policy about which way to do it? 99.192.71.6 (talk) 18:33, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't know about any policies, but in my opinion, it should normally be the name in use at the time. The "Moore met Moore" example is particularly bad. W. P. Uzer (talk) 19:49, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

I was hoping to avoid any discussion about what it should be until after establishing whether there are any current general policies, but since you mention it I agree with you in general. In cases where a notable person had a different surname while married, was known by that name, but has since switched back to a former name it can be better not to use the married name. Roseanne Barr was known as "Roseanne Arnold", but even on her bio page most of the discussion of her during that time is about also mentions Tom Arnold, so just saying "Arnold" for her would be confusing. But that is a case I would count as an exception to a good general rule.

If there is no general policy on names of subjects in their own bio articles currently, I suppose the next question would be whether one should be added to the MOS. It seems odd not to have one. But any discussion of that can wait until after we have established whether or not there is a general policy already. I'm still hoping there already is one somewhere and I just missed it. 99.192.71.6 (talk) 20:11, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

In the Roseanne Arnold case you describe, I think the solution is to use the first name (unless she was still known by her previous surname at that time, in which case that could be used). Another solution is to prefer he and she pronouns over names in cases when that helps. (But that doesn't apply in cases where the person has changed sex... See Chelsea Manning for the confusing writing that ensues when someone is retrospectively changed into a "she" for their whole life on the basis of something they said yesterday.) W. P. Uzer (talk) 06:28, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Commonality of name vs. parenthetical

If a person is most commonly known as, say, "John Smith" but that article title is already in use and not available for an article about the person, is it better to use the person's middle initial "John Q. Smith" or a parenthetical "John Smith (author)" for the article title? By my thinking, the middle initial is substandard in that the two-part name is more common than the three-part name, and the parenthetical is substandard because it is not the person's name at all; e.g., the parenthetical looks funny in categories. 216.66.5.53 (talk) 18:27, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Try testing any idea for an article title in Wikipedia's search box, to see what existing articles it could be confused with.
If his books are published under John Smith, then the average reader only knows him as John Smith, and will be faced with options such as John Smith (politician) John Smith (zoologist) etc. so John Smith (author) is the solution, as the "man in the street" doesn't know about his "Q", so will not enter the Q in a search. However, if his books are published under a name such as Arthur C. Clarke the initial is important.Arjayay (talk) 21:23, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

It is our standard procedure not to use a middle name or initial as a disambiguator unless it is commonly used to refer to the individual in question. If it isn't, don't use it and use a parenthetical disambiguator instead. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:58, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

WP:LASTNAME scope and general guidance

There is some debate^[who?] on how to handle first and subsequent mentions of proper names in non-biographical articles (specifically, film articles, and more specifically, actors' names in film plots). WP:LASTNAME does not necessarily offer general guidance on this, if the scope is inferred to be biographical articles only. What is the preferred style? Is there a more clear guideline elsewhere? If not, can this one be made more clear on the matter? Thanks! --Fru1tbat (talk) 13:08, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Use of "prominent" in lead section

Is it appropriate to use "X was a prominent Y" in the lead section of an article?--Mycomp (talk) 00:51, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

If the person was a good deal more prominent than your average Y would be expected to be, then could be informative. W. P. Uzer (talk) 05:45, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

But how does one determine if he was "a good deal more prominent" than other Ys or not? How does one decide that? The average Y will not pass the notability criteria to have a Wikipedia article to start with. If editor A thinks X is prominent, but editor B doesn't think so, what happens? Can we write, for example, in front of all Barcelona soccer players "prominent", or only in some cases ("X is a prominent soccer player who plays for Barcelona" vs. "Y is a soccer player who plays for Barcelona")? The Manual of Style advises us to avoid "peacock and weasel words". Isn't "prominent" such a word? I think, the facts of the article will show if the person was prominent or not.--Mycomp (talk) 06:13, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Your last sentence seems to provide the answer to your first one (plus the fact that there may be reliable sources which explicitly describe the person as prominent). I agree, though, that in most cases there will be a better and more specific way of conveying this information, as illustrated in the guideline about peacock terms. W. P. Uzer (talk) 07:00, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Ordering of events in a biography

(Specifically Naveen Jain (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views))

I'm assuming that biographies should be structured chronologically, with exceptions of highlighting highly notable events in the person's life. Am I missing something? Is this included in a guideline or essay somewhere? --Ronz (talk) 16:57, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Nationality/ethnicity

The manual currently says:

1. Name(s) and title(s), if any (see, for instance, also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility));
2. Dates of birth and death, if known (but for dates of birth see WP:BLPPRIVACY, which takes precedence); for how to write these dates, see Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Dates of birth and death;
3. Context (location, nationality, or ethnicity);
   1. In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable.
   2. Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability.

For second generation immigrants, I think the suggested style is fine but for first-generation immigrants, including those naturalised, I think this suggestion is too simplistic and gives too much emphasis to the host country. I agree that the description should not be too cumbersome as in 'born of X parents in country Y then moved to Z where he was naturalised'; detailed descriptions of this nature should be reserved for the body of the article.

This is a hotly disputed subject in many articles and I suggest that this is the place to have a cool and rational discussion of the subject, away from national feelings. To that end, I suggest that in this discussion we try to avoid discussing real examples directly but only refer to country X or fictional countries like 'Rubovia', 'Borsovia' and 'Humperstein' for example.

My suggestion is that, for first-generation immigrants, we adopt the general description 'Rubovian-Borsovian' where the nationalities are in chronological order; details to be worked out here. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:10, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

I've always used "X-born Y" and see no problem with this if the person mainly identifies with the new country. "X-Y" is the best description if the person still identifies with both countries. Contrary to what the guideline says, I think country of birth is highly relevant. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:59, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

I think so too, though maybe not in every case (e.g. if someone happened to be born in some country because their mother was living there temporarily at the time). W. P. Uzer (talk) 13:36, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

There seems to be some agreement that nationality at the time of notability is not the only important thing. On the other hand the current style has the advantage of simplicity. Country of birth can be important but so can nationality of parents, and nationality for most of their life. This can get complicated which is why I am suggesting say 'Rubovian-Borsovian-Humperstein' rather than 'Rubovian born Humperstienian who lived most of his life in Borsovia'. Martin Hogbin (talk) 18:24, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

I prefer "X-born Y-raised Z actor" (to pick a random profession) or "Z actor of X and W descent". These convey the required level of detail (in the cases where all those details are relevant, surely not the case for all migrants) without being overly verbose for the lede. I don't see the value in compressing it further into long hyphenated strings where the relations of the individual terms get rather unclear. Plain old "X-Y" might mean "Y of X ethnicity" (Italian American), "X of Y ethnicity or former citizenship" (British Indian), "X and Y citizen concurrently", "X and Y citizen successively" "mixed X and Y descent", etc. (and when you say X-Y-Z there's even more possibilities), and it's a disservice to readers to compress all those disparate cases into the same hyphenated term.

Also I'd suggest caution in using the formulation "X and Y actor": it should be limited to the rare cases where the person is actually notable as an actor of both countries, not merely cases where he exercises his profession as a actor in X while also happening to be a proud citizen or descendant of Y (but never appearing on Y television nor aiming at viewers in Y-Land). quant18 (talk) 07:02, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Bear in mind that the body of the article should always make the exact situation clear, as in, 'The subject was born in X of Y parents and, at the age of 5, moved to Z where he studied for 24 years. He then moved to W where he did his famous work, later to become naturalised as a W citizen.', for example. There are always, therefore, going to be some compromises in summarising the situation for the lead. I see two separate issues that need discussion: the form of wording to be used, and which countries/ethnicities should be mentioned.

It is indeed a good idea to try to have a consensual and precise wordings of the guideline on this issue. It typically can generate many endlessly repetitive discussions on some articles. I do not know if it would receive support, but my personal proposition would be to ban ANY reference to nationality/country/ethnicity in the opening section: can't we just say that Einstein was a scientist without having to mention his possible nationalities/religion/etc? That could go a long way in preventing the "I want to claim this famous guy for my country/ethnicity/etc." attitude. Interested readers could then make their own opinions when reading the body of the article. There would probably still be some battle about the wording of the body, but that would hopefully be a bit less passionate, as there would be room to expand on each issue. That would also emphasize the "universal" role of scientists and artists. Of course the problem is that about every current Wikipedia biography go against this, so this would take effort and might not be very consensual. Also, there might be a need to make an exception for professions such as politician.Tokidokix (talk) 12:15, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Wording

This can range from none, through the simple W-Y-Y-Z, to a condensed description as in 'X-born of Y parents, Z educated W'.

Nationalities/citizenship/ethnicities to be mentioned

This is a much harder question, the question of ethnicity being the hardest of all. It is tempting to stick to the current concept of not mentioning ethnicity at all but it might be considered that this discriminates against displaced groups who may have no nationality other than that of their host nation. This is likely to be a very contentious topic, which may be the reason that the current guidance is not to mention ethnicity.

We also need to decide how we give weight to: nationality of parents, birth, residency, education, and possibly other factors. This will not be easy but it is undoubtedly the subject of many disputes and, in my opinion, it is best discussed here, away from national feelings and loyalties. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:46, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

The major problem with the proposed chains of hyphenated demonyms is that they lead to a profusion of Wikipedian-invented terms that aren't used in reliable sources or are not the common name. For example, the Koreans of Kazakhstan were formerly Soviet Koreans and are now Koryo-saram; they've never been "Korean Soviets" nor "Korean Kazakhstanis". And many more places simply don't use these kinds of double-barrelled terms at all: women from Beijing who move to Taipei aren't "Chinese Taiwanese", Indians in Madagascar aren't "Indian Malagasy", etc.

As for ethnicity, the current guideline is not to "not mention ethnicity" but to include it only where it is "relevant to notability". I suppose that could use a bit more explication, though. Personally I agree partly with Tokidokix: there are many situations where even citizenship is not relevant either, and even in the case of politicians location is far more important contextual information than citizenship (we have a politician in Hong Kong who used to carry Thai & American passports, but calling him a "Thai American politician" would be a farce) — which the current guideline fails to recognise either. Your point about displaced groups is another good one: there are many cases where nationality (in the sense of membership in a nation, not in the sense of a legal relationship to a nation-state) is going to be far more relevant than what passport you happen to qualify for. quant18 (talk) 14:05, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

I take your point about non-standard terminology although as we are talking about style rather than content we need to be bound by sources. In fact for some people it is probably possible to find sources to support almost any chosen description.

I can see why mention of ethnicity is currently discouraged in the MOS, it some cases mention of ethnicity could be considered invasive, divisive, or provocative, whereas in other cases not to mention it seems wrong.

Do you think it will be possible to try to produce some more comprehensive style guidelines here or should we just give up and let people just fight it out in individual pages? Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:10, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Having this type of discussion done at a central location (ie here) is in principle a very good thing in my opinion: first it would be the only way to get some consistency across wikipedia articles instead of having variations depending on which "side" manage to gather enough of the editors "that care a lot" to win the edit war of attrition. It could also save a huge amount of time lost in those endless discussions.

However, this can only be useful if there is also some thinking on how to get the guideline enforced on such potentially controversial matters. In my short experience, editors "that care a lot" are happy to ignore and even go in the opposite direction of the guidelines if these guidelines do not support their preferred version... which remove the reason for having a guideline in the first place.Tokidokix (talk) 11:50, 7 October 2013 (UTC)