Talk:Albanians

The number of Albanians

Let's use the calculator: In 2011 census in Albania,where 15% of the population didn't declare their nationality,there are 2,312,356 Albanians. 2,312,356(Albania)+ 1,690,000(Kosovo)= 4,002,356

4,002,356(Albania+Kosovo)+1,300,000(Turkey),we are including here the partially assimilated Albanian population,like in other pages ,for example the number of serbs in USA.According to 2010 census around 190,000 serbs were counted.But in the serbian page these numbers go even too 1.8 million,including the partially assimilated ones,of course.the same thing is here. So 4,002,356(Albanai+Kosovo)+500-1,300,000(Turkey)=5,302,356

Now 5,302,356 + 509,083(Macedonia 2002) = 5,811,439

5,811,439 + 600,000 (Greece) =6,411,439

6,411,439 + 30,439 (Montenegro) = 6,441,878 6,441,878 + 17,513 (Croatia) = 6,459,391 6,459,391+ 10,000 (Romania) = 6,469,391

6,469,391 + 61,467 (Serbia,2002 census,the 2011 was boycotted,so it's untrue and unreilable) = 6,530,858 So 6,530,858 + 1,282,000(Italy,here are included the immigrants from Albania + around 800,000 local Albanian population called Arbershë.If Albanian population from Kosovo,Macedonia etc.. these numbers may be even more high.)=7,812,858

Sory i had to go out,let'continue with other countries

7,812,858+300,000(Germany)=8,112858+200,000(Switzerland)=8,312,858+60,000(Netherlands)=8,372,858+60,000(Sweden)=8,432,858 + 30,000(United Kingdom)=8,462,858+28,212(Austria)=8,491070+20,000(France)=8,511,070+193,813=8,704,883+8,000(Norway)=8,712,883+7,804(Finland)=8,720,687+30,000(Belgium)=8,750,687 +22,395(Canada)=8,773,082+11,315(Australia)=8,784,440+5,000(Ukraine)=8,789,440

Now here are included countries where a large number of albanian people lives.Albanians are about 9 million on it's max. estimations,but the lowest number must be 8 million,according to the table in this page.Albanians in Greece are not only Arvanites,here if we include them with the recent albanian immigrants,there would be 1 ml. albanians in greece.I agree with you that many of them have been assimilated.I will give you an example,if you go to the serb page in Wikipedia,you will see that there are 1.8 million serbs in U.S.A. when the 2010 census counted less than 190,000.They are assimilated too,like the albanians in turkey,but still are counted.Arbershe in Italy according to the source are 800,000. If we say there are 2,312,000 Albanains in Albania,according to the 2011 census,ok,but then there are only 25,000 greeks in Albania too and not 200,000 which is in the greek page.This is a double standard in wikipedia,not good. (talk) 22:52, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

On Wikipedia, we use reliable sources, not calculators. Keep in mind that only a smal part from the people of Albanian descent in Turkey have Albanian identity. Arbareshe in Italy according to reliable sources are 80,000 people not 800,000. Nobody from Arvanites in Greece keep Albanian self-identification today, and so on about your calculations. If you have reliable sources about your claims, please provide them. If no, stop pushing POV here. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 11:42, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Jingiby. Athenean (talk) 18:08, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Celtic, this is an encyclopedia, not a place for nationalistic competition. Stik to reliable sources and talk-page consensus. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 17:09, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

We should use real population data to determine the total population of Albanian people. So far I haven't found any data that confirm the total population of Albanians is indeed 6.0-7.5 million, besides an unreliable "Ethnologue" site of which the data and statistics for many countries, including Albania, Macedonia and Greece, are disputed. The "Ethnologue" site's claim is way exaggerated. The BBC's data for 6 million Albanians are more reasonable and closer to Wikipedia's actual records for how many live per country. But I failed to find any sources that validate the data from the Ethnologue site. The Wikipedia is not a place where we race for population sizes. The 5.5-6.0 million Albanians is the safest claim for now and the main page needs to be updated.--SilentResident (talk) 18:32, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Notable people

Ali Sami Yen — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.79.85.48 (talk) 18:31, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

An unregisterd user from Ip151.52.2.231 is making significant changes to notable Albanian personalities with out explanation. He/She has also disturbed content related to language. If He/She has any valid explanation than please show it here first.Editlets (talk) 07:10, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Can someone explain why Fatmir Sejdiu, the forgotten temporary president, appears there? What is his contribute? And who is Aferdita Dreshaj? Since when she represents Albanian people better than Eliza Dushku? Just because hse is pretty, does not mean she has to be there. How is it possible there is no place for Joe Dioguardi? Or James Belushi? Or Antonio Gramsci? But there is place for Sejdiu and Dreshaj! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mondiad (talk • contribs) 02:24, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

You are totally right, I will try to make some usefull changes to the gallery.thanks.Editlets (talk) 06:21, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

and John Belushi??--Snaporaxx (talk) 09:52, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Editwarring IPs

In response to the IP hopping edit warrior. Per [1] states; "Population total all countries: 7,436,990." --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:06, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Why is this article so prone to including non-Albanians in the infobox?

From the opening sentences of the articles on some of the people included in the infobox: “Mehmet Âkif Ersoy…was a Turkish poet”, “Tom Perrotta… is an American novelist”, “Francesco Crispi…was an Italian politician”, “Rita Ora… is a British singer-songwriter”, “Ernesto Sabato… was an Argentine writer”. And then some regularly try to include the likes of Pope Clement XI, Marin Barleti, Kara DioGuardi, William G. Gregory etc. Ridiculous. It looks like anyone with the remotest connection is "Albanian". DeCausa (talk) 21:40, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Of course they were Albanians. Francesco Albani and Pope Clement XI are of Arbëreshë descent, belonging to the Albanian Albani family. They were Albanians who originally moved to Urbino from the region of Malësi e Madhe in Albania (source: Herbermann, Charles George; Knights of Columbus, Catholic Truth Committee (1913). The Catholic Encyclopedia. The New York Public Library: Robert Appleton Company. p. 255. Retrieved 05/12/2010). Giorgio Basta, Francesco Crispi and Kara DioGuardi are also of Arbëreshë descent. Marin Barleti (Born in Shkodër, Northern Albania ca 1450) was a Catholic priest and considered as the first Albanian historian, and wrote a biography of Skanderbeg. Abdurrahman Arnavut (meaning "Albanian" in Turkish). Chech out their wiki-articles. Köprülü Mehmed Pasha, born in Roshnik Albania. William G. Gregory is of Albanian origin from the city of Korçë (Book: Historia e Shqiptaret, released in 2010, p.212). Pjeter Bogdani - Albanian Catholic, born in Kukës in 1622. Rita Ora is born to Albanian parents in Pristina, Kosovo, moving to England with her family in 1992. Mehmet Akif Ersoy - son to İpekli Tahir Efendi, an Albanian from İpek, modern day Peja in Kosovo. Tom Perrota - his mother is an Albanian-Italian (Arbëreshë) immigrant. So, Francesco Crispi...was an Iitalian politician, because he lived in Italy, but his ethnicity was Albanian. Rita Ora... is a British singer because she lives in Britain, but she is born in Kosovo by Albanian Catholic parents. I am a Bosniak, and if I move to America and write a book I will be and American writter, but my ethnicity will remain Bosniak. Do you understand that logic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Norrskensstämmor (talk • contribs) 22:15, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

So, George Washington was English? You need to provide evidence that they self-declare as Albanian. Just because a person's aunt's husband's third cousin once spent a week in Albania, doesn't make them Albanian. Clement XI was previously discussed here and consensus was not to include, for instance. And don't edit war: read WP:BRD. You have been recverted by two editors. The consensus version must remain until you achieve consensus for a change. That's the way it works on Wikipedia. DeCausa (talk) 09:13, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I understand your point and almost totally agree. The issue is that the article is seen on an ethnic point of view rather than national. When they say Albanians, they usually refer to the ethnic background, cause the Albanian people are spread and less than half resides in what is known as Albania. I don't see any reason to include Kara DioGuardi, but her father is the president of AACL, he is declared Albanian. Tom Perotta is wrongly listed. Francesco Crispi comes from Piana degli Albanesi, maybe he can be removed but Antonio Gramsci, even being Sardinian and internationalist, has declared his origin as Albanian. This way we can go with most of the people there. This is correct as much as citing Bonaparti as Corsican, El Greco as Greek, or Zuckenberg as Jewish. And there is another factor, the "mercenary" characteristic of Albanians, beside Scanderbeg and Rilindas, all the famous Albanians thrived inside non-Albanian cultures, Mother Teresa in India, Crispi in Italian Nationalism, Arvanites or Souliotes during Greek revolution, etc, etc. I already stated long ago the infobox needs to be cleared up, I agree to remove most of the stuff, especially non-significant people like Ibrahim Rugova or Aferdita Dreshaj, but I cannot say we have to remove Rita Ora just because she lives in Britain and has British citizenship. What if she immigrates to US later? Mondiad (talk) 14:26, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I can only agree with the former two editors. Most of the recent inclusions are characterized by tentative, subjective, links to Albanian ethnicity and ought to be cleaned up asap. 90.230.54.125 (talk) 16:09, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Maybe we can start each one with a list of who should be included in the infobox and later scan the various lists to find an intersection between them on which everyone agrees. The list can be smaller, it is not decided that there should be 20 persons or more. The most important thing is to build a list that everyone agrees. Should we create another topic for that? What do you guys think?Mondiad (talk) 22:28, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

There's two issues: (1) can the individual be considered "Albanian"; (2) if they pass (1), does their prominence warrant being included over other potential candidates. (2) of course is very subjective. But (1) should be supported by a WP:RS that says the person "says he/she is Albanian" whatever anyone else says. There's a particular point with Arbëreshë people and Arvanites. My personal point of view is that if someone self-declares as Arbëreshë or Arvanite, they are not automatically "Albanian" unless they also say they are "Albanian", which of course some may do. I think prima facie, Arbëreshë or Arvanite should be considered ethnicities in their own right, not Abanian. But that is a matter of WP consensus to decide. DeCausa (talk) 22:49, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

This is a very delicate issue, especially for the Balkans people. It is not easy to put the boundaries between the ethnicity - nationality - national consistence, etc. I would definitely not say that Arberesh are a different ethnicity, it cannot be since they speak Albanian and have Albanian origin. The same with Arvanites. When it comes to national conscience, that is another thing. The name Albanian as well in new, the Arberesh or Arvanite (Arbereshe) still bear the name of what the Albanians used to call themselves back then. Just because poeple within Albania are called differently does not mean that the ethnicity has changed. Markos Botsaris was a Souliote, he drafted one of the first known Albanian-Greek dictionaries. It is proved that he spoke Albanian. But there was no clear Albanian national conscience back then, the Muslim used to be called Turks and the Orthodox Greeks, or just by the local name i.e Souliotes. Now, was he Albanian, or can we list him? I would say yes, some Greek wikipedians would disagree. There are Arberesh or Arvanites that even affiliated with "Albanians" in the modern point of view, during 20-21st centuries. Some Albanian-Americans as well. I would say that some of these can be included in the list since there are references, even better there are wiki articles that are already done. These people fill both criteria: ethnicity and national affiliation.

The most important thing is to agree on how we are going to proceed, I would like everyone else to jump into the discussion before jumping and reconfiguring the infobox. Mondiad (talk) 01:51, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I had in mind more of the modern era, where people are likely to self-declare (different rules should apply for earlier periods - based on what WP:RS say they are). But "Albanian-American" is a good example. There need to be a WP:RS that they consider themselves to be "Albanian-American", not simply that they were born in the US and their father happens to be Albanian, for example. I take the point about historical Arbëreshë that speak Albanian etc. But I was thinking more of Italians "of Arbëreshë descent" who don't. DeCausa (talk) 10:30, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

I had another look at the top of the article, it says "...ethnic group...", so the article is on ethnic point of view rather than national conscience, which is pretty young between Albanians, and they are scattered all over. A good candidate might be James Belushi, or even better Eliza Dushku or Joe DioGuardi. DioGuardi would cover Albanian Americans and Arbereshe as well. It would be very easy to provide recent references on their national affiliation. I substituted Tom Perotta by the way, and opened a section here on the talk page. For sure someone will have something to say.Mondiad (talk) 03:37, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Okey then. This is my list of Albanians who I want to see in the infobox: Skanderbeg, Mother Theresa, Ibrahim Rugova, Adem Jashari. Why those people should be in the infobox, I don't even have to explain, I know you get it. Next, Joseph DioGuardi (self-explained as Albanian), Antonio Gramsci (self-explained as Albanian), then Marin Barleti, Giulio Variboba, Köprülü Mehmed Pasha, Fan Noli, Gjergj Fishta, Naim Frashëri, Ismail Qemali, Ali Pasha, Pjetër Bogdani, Pashko Vasa, Rita Ora, Aleksandër Moisiu, Eliza Dushku and Enver Hoxha. Also, maybe Francesco Crispi, Andrea Shundi or/and James Belushi. So dudes, what do you think? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Norrskensstämmor (talk • contribs) 11:35, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

I think this is a nice list you suggested here. Especially Mother Tereza, Ali Pasha and the other notable personalities. --SilentResident (talk) 12:41, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Substituted Tom Perotta with Bekim Fehmiu

I think Bekim Fehmiu presents better the Albanians internationally, and is full Albanian. (With all the respect for Tom and his work!)Mondiad (talk) 03:40, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Good. I replaced Mehmet Âkif Ersoy with Marin Barleti instead. Ersoy was probably self-declared as a Turk. Marin Barleti was an Albanian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Norrskensstämmor (talk • contribs) 11:10, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

And Isa Boletini instead of Afërdita Dreshaj. Afërdita is cute and sexy but non-significant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Norrskensstämmor (talk • contribs) 11:14, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't have any issue with Boletini, but personally would prefer another woman in the list, maybe we can bring Eliza Dushku instead of Rugova so we re-balance.Mondiad (talk) 13:26, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I think the Qiriazi sisters would fit the bill egregiously. Even Nexhmije Hoxha (or Shote Galica) have had more impact in history as Albanian women than Dushku. Not a Rugova fan myself, just a note on women who were notable in history. We can also think about Musine Kokalari, the first woman writer in Albanian, or Dora d'Istria. --Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 16:09, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

• This article defines Albanians either as ethnic Albanians or citizens of Albania. Marin Barleti was neither. He was citizen of Venetian Republic and many scholars believe he was Italian who settled to Venetian held Scutari (Marin Barleti (2012). David Hosaflook (ed.). The Siege of Shkodra: Albania's Courageous Stand Against Ottoman Conquest, 1478. David Hosaflook. p. 29. ISBN 978-99956-87-77-9.). Presenting him in the infobox as undisputedly Albanian is probably a violation of wp:npov.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:37, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

How does Hosaflook know what Barleti was by the way. Wouldn't it be mentioned somewhere if he was Venetian? Not that I care much about Barleti, but the nihilist movement towards Albanians is to interesting.Mondiad (talk) 22:22, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Antidiskriminator: Don't be sensitive now, just take him away then if you want to. Simple as that. Mondiad: Why instead of Rugova? He is undeniably one of the most prominent Kosovar Albanians! Replace Ernesto Sabato with Dusku instead. That is what I think. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Norrskensstämmor (talk • contribs) 15:14, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Rugova the most prominent Kosovar Albanian? is that for serious? On the Serbian point of view maybe. Rugova was a controversial politician, president of a non-sense self declared republic existing nowhere, with very strong connections with Yugoslavian political circles. He can be in the infobox of Kosovo Albanians, still "maybe!", but not for Albanians in general. Albanians have Ibrahim Kodra and George Ghika, Vasile Lupu, Joe DioGuardi, Antonio Gramsci, Rexhep Qosja, Ana Oxa or even Xherdan Shaqiri, so there are choices. I remember Fatmir Sejdiu used to be on the Infobox as well. Another "president" from Democratic League of Kosovo (LDK). Just someone is a political fan of LDK and votes for them, doesn't mean they are worth to be put on infobox.Mondiad (talk) 22:22, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

In the western world Rugova was in the 1990s the most prominent Kosovar Albanian, there is no doubt about it. Afterwards there have been three people in the political Kosovo Albanian world: Hashim Thaci, Ramush Haradinaj, and Albin Kurti. In my opinion all three of them are more worthy of being in that list of images, than say, Rita Ora or Francesco Crispi. In addition, before the three of them should be Adem Jashari, but, again, we ought to determine the criteria for inclusion, but I know already it will not be easy to find an agreement. My list of criteria would be the following:

1. How much is known in the world, as an Albanian, a person?
2. How much did that person do for Albania?
3. How notable was that person?

After we agree on these criteria we can start a list. I am open to modifications of the criteria. Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 15:41, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Another concern that I have: Ottoman personalities with Albanian ethnicity seem to have been compoletely forgotten in this list. Not necessarily we need to have Western oriented Albanian personalities, in my opinion we should include personalities who have been notable as Albanians in 5 centuries of Ottoman presence in Albania. We have a list of 40+ grand viziers of Albanian ethnicity: 2-3 of them are to be included. Also Muhammad Nasiruddin al-Albani, a great Muslim scholar of the Zahiri school of thought might be included. On the other hand there is not a single Arvanite in the list of images. Same for the Albanians in Macedonia (we could start by writing the article of Josif Bageri). By the way I see that the article of Luigj Bumci one of the most important foreign ministers of Albania still doesn't exist. Monsignor Bumci and Lef Nosi may happily be in the list of images too. --Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 16:05, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Do you have a better source describing Carpaccio as an Albanian? That link doesn't seem to be a very reliable source. His article said he was Istrian until you changed it today. I also don't see a source that Ghega was Albanian here or on his article.

As for the infobox, I don't think there should be a certain quota for each region (like having one from Greece, two from Italy, etc.). It should just be based on who's the most notable out of all ethnic Albanians. And Mother Teresa is one from Macedonia in the infobox. I also disagree about Rita Ora, she's well-known in several countries. Also, we should address whether people like Marin Barleti should be included in the infobox when there is no consensus as to their ethnicities. --Local hero ^talk 17:38, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Mother Teresa was born in the Ottoman Empire, and is an ethnic Albanian, she deserves to be in the infobox. The link to Carpaccio is a copy of the article appeared in the Arte e Cultura journal, which is sourced. Ghega being an Albanian: referenced. On Rita Ora: I agree with you not because she is known in several countries, but because there are lots of other personalities that would precede her for notability. But again, it's a tough call. Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 17:43, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Yup, she absolutely does, I was just pointing out that she's from Macedonia so there is, in fact, an Albanian Macedonian in the collage. Apparently the Carpaccio thing is being discussed at that talk now. Thanks for sourcing Ghega. Two other big reasons to include Ora are that she's female, whereas most of the others are male, and that she's relevant today, so we can better spread out the personalities with respect to when they were active. --Local hero ^talk 18:06, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

It is a pity that Albania wasn't made in the 19th century when there still were good quality painters. They would have drawn images of Albanian personalities before Skanderbeg, but we have nothing of Albanian personalities before him in images or sculptures. So we can't use images of people who lived in the 13th 14th, and 15th centuries. With this said, here's the list that I would add: I wouldn't take out anyone already in the list, but I would add the following 15:

1. Moisi Arianit Golemi, second most important figure of the League of Lezhe after Skanderbeg
2. Pjetër Bogdani, early writer, clergy and insurgent (I would put Gjon Buzuku, as the first documented writer, but Buzuku doesn't have an image.
3. Köprülü Mehmed Pasha, grand vizier of the Ottoman Empire, famous for rebuilding the power of the empire by rooting out corruption and reorganizing the Ottoman army
4. Jeronim de Rada, basically the starter of the Albanian renaissance
5. Naum Veqilharxhi, another extremely important figure to the Albanian renaissance, especially from an ideological standpoint
6. Sami Frasheri, probably the most prominent figure of the Albanian renaissance, althought he stayed in the shadows.
7. Mehmed Ferid Pasha, another grand vizier, but more important than the Köprülü before mentioned, because it was in the era, when the grand viziers were truly prime ministers.
8. Kostandin Kristoforidhi, translated into Albanian the New Testament for the first time in the gheg Albanian and with his Elbasan dialect put the basis of standard Albanian
9. Ahmet Zogu, monarch of the 20th century (for 11 years)
10. Mehmet Shehu, prime minister for 25 years, the longest time in the history of Albania
11. Musine Kokalari, first female writer of Albania
12. Lef Nosi, Albania's Benjamin Franklin (first minister of the Postal service and scholar)
13. Ismail Kadare, Albania's most important writer, winner of several international prizes, and in odor of Nobel prize several times.
14. Muhammad Nasiruddin al-Albani, a 20th century Muslim scholar of the Zahiri school
15. Vaçe Zela, 11 times winner of the Festivali i Këngës, something that will NEVER be matched, basically the most important Albanian singer of all times.

What are other editors' thoughts? --Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 00:19, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

There are currently 20 individuals in the collage. There will be 35 if these are added. That is excessive. It should be narrowed down to the 16 or 20 most notable ones. --Local hero ^talk 02:12, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Americans are 9 and serbs are 30. Following this series Albanians being a little less should need 35, :-). Ok, jokes aside, I agree with you, but I would like to hear other Albanian users as well. Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 03:23, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Ok, issued my own Top 20, feel free to disagree. Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 23:26, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I think it's acceptable. I only suggested keeping Ora to have some diversity in there, but it's fine in my opinion. --Local hero ^talk 02:40, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Population numbers

I am afraid that the actual total population of Albanians is not really 6.0 to 7.5 million, but 5.5 to 6.0 million, which is much closer to the data we have in Wikipedia and on most other sites. We can't just use the site "Ethnologue" as no data have validated its statistics, yet. --SilentResident (talk) 18:36, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

I too am looking for valid and reliable data but I can't find any that support the claim of the albanian total population being more than 6-7 million, worldwide. --2.85.78.63 (talk) 16:11, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Population numbers are incorrect as they are taking into account only the ethnic Albanians of Albania, and not all Albanian citizens. The first sentence of the article specifically says "Albanians (Albanian: Shqiptarët) are defined as an ethnic group native to Albania and neighboring countries or as citizens of the Republic of Albania regardless of ethnicity". The numbers are taking into account only ethnic Albanians. --Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 00:08, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

As far as I know, the scope of this article has always been about ethnic Albanians. Not everyone in Albania is an ethnic Albanian, so it is incorrect to state 2.75 mil in the infobox. I think the first sentence is just pointing out that the term 'Albanians' can also refer to anyone in Albania regardless of ethnicity. Ukrainians, for example, doesn't have the whole population of Ukraine listed in the infobox. --Local hero ^talk 02:27, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

The very first sentence of the article (which is inclusive of all Albanian citizens, regardless of ethnicity + the ethnic Albanians outside Albania) contraddicts your understanding of the scope of the article. You are right about Ukranians and Poles, but that is not the case for Italians or French people. I'd rather have Albanians article look like the two latter.Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 03:51, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't think Italians has the whole population of Italy in its infobox. In the source for that the total population of Italy is given as 59 mil, I believe. In the Italy, it also gives a figure of 59 mil for the total population. The French people, according to the article, are an ethno-linguistic group, only defined by their citizenship. I don't believe France allows its census to make ethnic and racial distinctions among its citizens. Albania does not have this situation. --Local hero ^talk 04:57, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

The (juridical) situation of Albania vis-a-vis France (or Italy) is irrelevant to the consistency of similar articles in wikipedia. An Albanian is an Albanian citizen, or an Albanian ethnic (one can of course be both): the word has simply two meanings, and it's a good thing that the article is inclusive of both meanings. I have nothing against specifying the number of ethnic Albanians within Albania, even within the lead, but this article simply can't exclude part of the Albanian citizens that have other ethnicities. For instance, we have lots of Greeks, Aromanians, Serbs, Armenian, and Jews in Albania that have given a lot to the country, and they always had Albanian citizenship (most often they never speak/spoke other language than Albanian, shouldn't this article include them)? It would be a racist artile with lots of issues. To give an example: Rita Levi Montalcini was a Jew Italian, she is in the picture infobox of the Italians, and rightly so. In Albania Sterjo Spasse is one of the most acclaimed writers in Albanian language, but he didn't have a single drop of Albanian blood, he was Slavic Macedonian ethnically, and Albanian citizen. Same speech can be made for Panajot Pano, an ethnic Greek and Albanian citizen: he too could be in that infobox with no problems whatsoever as the greatest Albanian footballer of all times. I could also mention Robert Shvarc, a Jew who gave a lot to Albania, or Hajk Zaharian, an Armenian ethnic composer, all of them were Albanian by citizenship. Eli Fara, the greatest folk singer of Albania, is an Aromanian. I am sure that you understand how much all these ethnicities have given to different Balkan countries. The Greeks, duly so, put lots of Arvanites as Greeks in their infoboxes, and I have nothing against that. --Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 18:10, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

This article is clearly about the ethnic group and not all of the people of Albania. Demographics of Albania discusses all of the people that live in the country. That's why the hatnote was there. The word does have two meanings, and this article only refers to the ethnic group, just like every other ethnic group article. So, because the Macedonians (ethnic group) article does not include Mother Teresa, it is a racist article? I'm certain that if her picture was added there, it would be removed immediately. People like Pano can be found on their respective minority group articles, in this case Greeks in Albania. If this article covered all of those groups, then there would be no point for articles like that one. The Arvanites, according to many sources, self-identify as Greeks these days. That's a whole different topic; I'm very familiar with Greece's deplorable treatment of minorities but I won't get into that. --Local hero ^talk 01:25, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

The very first statement of the article contraddicts your claim. Demographics of Albania is linked below in the article about more information, so that hatnote didn't need to be there. If Macedonians (ethnic group) relates only to the ethnic group, is an issue that should be addressed in that article. There may be an article called (Macedonian citizens) that could be inclusive of all citizens of the country of Macedonia, and if Mother Teresa had that citizenship, it would be fine to have her there. Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 20:12, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

The first statement, as I've understood it for a few years now, simply states that this term can also refer to everyone in Albania. It does not claim that this article is about everyone in Albania. The hatnote stated that Demographics in Albania was the best place for that. I don't know of any other ethnic group article that lists the entire population of its home country as the population for the ethnic group in that country. Like I said, if this article was meant to cover all groups in Albania, then there would be no point for Greeks in Albania, Macedonians in Albania, etc. --Local hero ^talk 16:52, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Enver Hoxha image

Pershendetje, jam nje perdorues i shpesht i faqes tuaj, me gjithe respektin per faqen tuaj, kisha vetem nje keshille per katgorin "Albanians" ikona e diktatorit Enver Hoxha te hiqet nga kjo ketegori, mendoj se ne si Shqiptar duhet ta kemi per ulje te indetifikohemi nga ky njeri i cili solli vetem vuajtje edhe ekzekutime popullit tone, faleminderit per mirekuptimin, E.M nga Tirana. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.78.79.241 (talk) 18:14, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Google translate of above comment says:

• Hello, I am a frequent user of your page, with all due respect for your site, I had only one advice for category "Malaysians" icon dictator Enver Hoxha ketegori removed from it, I think we should have Albanian as lowering indetifikohemi from the man who brought only suffering to our people and executions, Thanks for your understanding, EM from Tirana.

--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:46, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Enver Hoxha in my opinion deserves to be in the infobox, only if we agree to have another important personality of the 20th century Ahmet Zogu: If a communist dictator has to be there, so needs to be the monarch, otherwise we kind of have a imbalanced image. Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 17:56, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Sources

Solved:Unsourced ethnicity assertion removed.

I noticed user:Perkohesisht ai i vjetri reinserted unsourced (diff) text about ethnicity of children on the image. Are you able to present verifiable reliable source which confirms that ethnicity of children on the picture is Albanian?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:22, 6 January 2014 (UTC) So when you take a picture of a person, and you upload it in commons, you need sources to also verify their ethnicity? What reliable source would you need for that? Also, there are 14 pictures of Albanians in that article, why did you need reliable sources for that one? Is it a concern that you have for minors having an image in wikipedia against their will? If so, and it is a valid concern, I would recommend you go to Commons and raise that concern, but don't ask me for sources of a picture, which I have not uploaded. The photographer says that it was taken in Northern Albania, and having been there, I don't find anything odd. Can it have been taken somewhere else? Possibly. In Slovakia, or Russia? Maybe. But we go with good faith in Wikipedia. --Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 00:28, 6 January 2014 (UTC) No. I did not mention commons nor description of the image supports the assertion you added. That is why I asked you a simple question: Are you able to present verifiable reliable source which confirms that ethnicity of children on the picture is Albanian? Please be so kind to answer my question.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:56, 6 January 2014 (UTC) I think I answered your question and I'll reformulate for you so that you have no doubts. No, I can't. And for that matter I can't do that for hundreds of thousands of pictures which are not sourced in Wikipedia. If I am a biologist and I take a picture of a certain type of flower, how do I prove that's the flower in question? Is every flower in the world notable to have sources? Are those 6 children in the wikipedia notable to have sources? Probably not. --Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 01:02, 6 January 2014 (UTC) I made some research and found a source where the girl has a similar outfit to the one in the article in question, probably it's worth you see it. [2]. In Albania little girls in elementary schools have a mandatory black uniform, covered with white ornaments on top. That it thought to help them focus on studying rather than on other topics, such as fashion. --Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 03:05, 6 January 2014 (UTC) There is a policy WP:VERIFY which says: "All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists and captions, must be verifiable." It also says: "In Wikipedia, verifiability means that people reading and editing the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source." Please revert your reinsertion (diff) of the unsourced and unverifiable text about the ethnicity of children on the image.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:19, 6 January 2014 (UTC) The policy on verifiability doesn't specify anything on images, though. For images, you may read this guideline, which quotes "Generally, Wikipedia assumes in good faith that image creators are correctly identifying the contents of photographs they have taken. If such sources are available, it is helpful to provide them". In other words, sources are helpful, only if available, otherwise good faith is sufficient. Have a good day sir! --Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 15:13, 6 January 2014 (UTC) Can you please explain where the image creator identified children on the image as ethnic Albanians?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:20, 6 January 2014 (UTC) See under "Description" in this link. Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 17:40, 6 January 2014 (UTC) It does not mention ethnicity.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:56, 6 January 2014 (UTC) "Albanian children" is not ethnicity? Why so? Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 17:58, 6 January 2014 (UTC) No, not necessarily. In the first sentence, Albanians are defined as "an ethnic group native to Albania and neighboring countries or as citizens of the Republic of Albania regardless of ethnicity". I suggest to remove the word "ethnic" from the caption. What about "Albanian children in elementary school uniform". --T*U (talk) 08:24, 7 January 2014 (UTC) Removed. --Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 12:49, 7 January 2014 (UTC) Perkohesisht ai i vjetri, what is it that you have removed? The photo is still there. You've removed the word 'ethnic' (as per your edit to this talk page comment). Your entire argument is gobbledygook. Have you actually understood what Antidiskriminator is trying to establish? Quite simply put, the photo may be of children attending an Albanian elementary school, but nowhere is it specified that they are of Albanian descent. How are we to know descent of the children? It could well be that it depicts a child of Russian descent, a child of Macedonian descent, a child of Ukrainian descent and a child of Turkic descent, etc. For all we know, there isn't a single child of Albanian descent attending the school. You are making assumptions, adding an personal POV opinion and (from implication) are making an assertion and presenting it as a fact. The photo, in itself, is not particularly informative or necessary to the article. If in doubt, better to toss it out! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:52, 8 January 2014 (UTC) Iryna, first it's spelt "descent", not "decent". Second, kindly don't talk on behalf of Antidiskriminator: He can intervene himself and most likely does not need your help. I did what T*U suggested, because I agreed with him. Third, please don't hound me here in a topic you had never edited before, as I'm feeling harassed now. If our disagreement at Nickola Shreli brought you here, then you are here for a bad reason, not to improve the article. Best! --Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 23:58, 8 January 2014 (UTC) Very decent of you to make such a point of "descent" in a quickly typed comment! You seem to have mistaken my edits for being something other than what they are. I would suggest that you calm down before you get uncivil. I'm not interested in edit warring, but I am interested in the misrepresentation of sources. You still don't appear to have understood what the concerns are. [EDIT] Note also that this article has been on my watchlist for a long time. Incidentally, who is T*U? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:04, 9 January 2014 (UTC) Thank you for your interest. User:TU-nor with the signature T*U is a not-so-very-active contributor to Wikipedia. Any more questions? --T*U (talk) 07:24, 9 January 2014 (UTC) I am fine with changed description of the image.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 01:21, 9 January 2014 (UTC) Also, I just checked the image properly and all of the girls have different clothing on. Seeing a couple of girls in pinafores does not equal uniform. I've changed the caption to read, "Elementary school children in Albania." --Iryna Harpy (talk) 02:33, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

This section was started to discuss unsourced ethnicity assertion. If anybody has objection to the choice of the pictures in the gallery it should be discussed within separate section.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:21, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Gallery

Solved:Some more discussion about the gallery

On another point, I find the modern photo of three young women in contemporary fashion (i.e., they differ from no other contemporary country) somewhat offensive. What is the rationale for having it in the gallery? Is this meant to be an article on Albania or some sort of boast page? The only thing missing is, "Our women are more beautiful than your women." It's uninformative and gratuitous. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 02:33, 9 January 2014 (UTC) I am 100% sure that ladies around the world would find way less offensive this other woman], but it's not 100% sure she's Albanian or Italian. That's just to make you happy Iryna, 'cause usually the people, buildings, parks, and other stuff in wikipedia are not the ugly ones, only the best are chosen. Germans have in their picture infobox Heidi Klum and Claudia Schiffer although there are lots of ugly German philosophers and musicians that should precede the two ladies... Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 14:12, 9 January 2014 (UTC) A non-argument. You may note that Heidi Klum and Claudia Schiffer have blue links for a reason: due to being known. These women are unnamed and are not notable for being anything other than attractive Albanian women. Eye-candy is not encyclopaedic. If, however, you were to balance it out with a photo of some unknown Albanian beefcake (serious beefcake, so no pics of yourself), I might learn to live with it. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:39, 9 January 2014 (UTC) Hahaha, well, you're a good sport. Probably one day Nickola Shreli will end up in the Albanians infobox. I hope it for him (and you, ;-))Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 02:36, 10 January 2014 (UTC) Accepted (on the proviso that it's one like this or this). 8] --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:29, 10 January 2014 (UTC)