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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 2605:6000:9d83:d800:a83d:d19e:790f:3520 (talk) at 01:07, 16 October 2014 (→Semi-protected edit request on 15 October 2014: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Former good article nomineeThe Holocaust was a History good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
March 9, 2005Featured article candidateNot promoted
January 19, 2006Good article nomineeListed
July 5, 2006Good article reassessmentKept
November 16, 2006Featured article candidateNot promoted
May 3, 2007Good article reassessmentDelisted
June 11, 2007Peer reviewReviewed
October 3, 2007Good article nomineeNot listed
Current status: Former good article nominee

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Concern about photo not adequately capturing the horror of the Holocaust

The lead is often the only part of the article that a reader will read. As such, I am concerned that the lead's photo of Jews waiting at the railway station to be selected for death camps does not adequately capture the horror of the Holocaust. Given the horrific nature of the Holocaust, I think that a photo depicting the killings, several of which exist in the body of the article, would better communicate the terrible nature of the mass murder.OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 15:07, 19 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No, I disagree with that. Not in the lead. Ideally later in the article. The train photo is one of the most iconic photos of the Holocaust. That is why it appears in the lead. The suffering doesn't need to be 'captured'. 6 million innocent people (11 million if you count non-Jews) died. It's a given. Further, we don't have images of dead bodies in the lead for any other massacre/war/genocide. JDiala (talk) 21:31, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The train station photo is still there. Well, if no other massacre/war/genocide articles have pictures of dead victims, perhaps the Holocaust article is a good place to start. I will check on your statement that no other leads have dead people in them, and get back to you. I think the suffering does need to be captured in the lead. The lead is often the only part of a WP article that is read. If the horrific pictures are only in the later sections of the article, some readers may not see them.OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 22:05, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The article for My Lai Massacre has a shocking photo of dead civilians, in colour, right in the lead. I think it helps the reader to grasp the horrific nature of the My Lai Massacre.OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 22:08, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The number (6 million Jews) is just so staggering that it is hard to grasp. The picture helps the reader to see the scale of the mass murder.OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 22:09, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse has a colour photo of prisoner abuse in the lead.OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 22:32, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No, you're missing the point. These are exceptions, not rules. Considering other genocides and massacres, like the Armenian Genocide, Columbine High School massacre, Bombing of Dresden, the Blitz or war battles like the Battle of Berlin and the Siege of Leningrad, the lead images are geared more towards iconic or symbolic images rather than images which purely serve to convey the magnitude of human suffering. Others, like the Holodomor just have images of a few bodies rather than mass graves (which also could have been used). The purpose of Wikipedia isn't to provoke an emotional response of sadness or disgust, but rather to inform. It boils down to personal preference. And, in my view, the train photograph by itself, considering how iconic it is, does that the best. And no, I don't think the suffering is particularly hard to grasp. It's a given. If the reader wishes to comprehend this event and how 'staggering' it was, he should do that on his own accord. Wikipedia merely exists to inform. The subjective and emotional aspects of particular subjects are not of primary concern.
I have no objection to the photograph whatsoever. The photo itself is fine. However, it's ideally placed later in the article. I don't think the lead is an ideal place for it. Honestly, I just think it looks ugly. Again, the train image by itself looked great, and it, along with the image of the boy with his hands up, are the most iconic and recognizable images regarding the Holocaust. JDiala (talk) 06:59, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The lead is now too cluttered. The original photograph was fine by itself. Please move the other one back to the relevant section. (Hohum @) 12:19, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A poor photo of a pile of bodies does nothing to aid the article or to "capture the horror of the Holocaust". The fact that people are dead tells us nothing (they might have died from a natural disaster or from a plague outbreak). The established picture shows people being shepherded by Nazi officials in a way that much more effectively captures the 'managerial' treatment of masses of people. Paul B (talk) 18:14, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Paul. Keep the established picture by itself.Joel Mc (talk) 07:38, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Armed resistance in the lead

I think that it is important that the article's coverage of armed Jewish resistance have a place in the lead. There is a misconception that the Jews did not resist the Holocaust. Having coverage of the armed resistance by Jewish resistance fighters is importantOnBeyondZebrax (talk) 16:16, 19 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

lessons of the Holocaust

Would articles about classes for university students by Chabad fit under The Holocaust? Where would these kind of articles go?

For example

http://www.jewishpresstampa.com/news/2010-04-16/World_News/JLI_offers_course_on_lessons_of_the_Holocaust.html

http://thealternativepress.com/towns/madison/articles/beyond-never-again-new-course-to-explore-modern

http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/04/bernikow_jcc_to_offer_6-week_h.html

http://www.chabad.org/search/results.aspx?searchWord=%20Course%20looks%20at%20effects%20of%20Holocaust

Adamreinman (talk) 21:57, 29 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't saying there are classes on a topic is particularly valuable to the article. There are classes on every notable subject. What would those classes be teaching other than something along the contents of this article (or the sources this article is based on). Gaijin42 (talk) 22:00, 29 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

See also: “Other genocides and mass killings”

What is the objective for that section? There is a link to the article genocide right at the beginning of the article. There some kind of well-structured treatment of the topic can be found, why should we have an arbitrary selection in this article? --Chricho ∀ (talk) 09:28, 1 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone add a proof section?

Hi, I was looking for contemporary accounts of the holocaust from German citizens, stuff like diaries etc. I searched for the text string "proof" in this page expecting to find a section with background on the proof that the holocaust happened (which would hopefully have links to what I was looking for), and found nothing. Can someone add this? Things like Goebbel's diary, air surveillance pictures of the camps and first hand accounts from Germans of the jews dissapearing are good examples of stuff that could be added. 70.162.46.129 (talk) 19:29, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Each of the examples you cite above is a primary source. Those can be useful, but for an encyclopedia article about a topic for which there is so much reliable secondary coverage (secondary sources are the main source of information for a tertiary work such as an encyclopedia), there really is no reason to directly use them. You might find some of the information you are looking for in Criticism of Holocaust denial. VQuakr (talk) 19:53, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This article is based on the consensus amongst credible academic historians - and amongst such historians, there is no dispute as to the reality of the Holocaust - it no more needs a 'proof' section than any other historical account. It states historical fact, and cites the sources from which such fact is derived. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:03, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Escapes, publication of existence (April–June 1944)

Why isn't this a separate article? I assume this has been asked before. But it seems like there is now plenty of material for a separate article. And this section here seems like it has been constrained due to the size limitations imposed by trying to cover this important issue in this huge article on the the Holocaust.

And "(April–June 1944)" should be a subsection header in that section. --Timeshifter (talk) 23:22, 13 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 15 October 2014

The number of people killed in the Holocaust is inaccurate. The Nazis had 5-15 million non-Jews killed as well, including: Romani, mentally disabled, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists, political dissidents, ethnic Russians, Ukrainians, ethnic Byellorussians, Poles, and Slavs. [1] [2] 2605:6000:9D83:D800:A83D:D19E:790F:3520 (talk) 23:13, 15 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

See the second paragraph of the lede. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:03, 16 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 15 October 2014

The number of people killed in the Holocaust is inaccurate. The Nazis had 5-15 million non-Jews killed as well, including: Romani, mentally disabled, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists, political dissidents, ethnic Russians, Ukrainians, ethnic Byellorussians, Poles, and Slavs. [3] [4] 2605:6000:9D83:D800:A83D:D19E:790F:3520 (talk) 01:06, 16 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005219
  2. ^ http://www.businessinsider.com/shocking-new-holocaust-study-claims-nazis-killed-up-to-20-million-people-2013-3
  3. ^ http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005219
  4. ^ http://www.businessinsider.com/shocking-new-holocaust-study-claims-nazis-killed-up-to-20-million-people-2013-3
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