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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Squiggleslash (talk | contribs) at 13:02, 18 March 2015 (→Statement by squiggleslash: Unwatching per Tarc). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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[[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment#Clarification request: Improving the clarity of Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions|Clarification request: Improving the clarity of Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions]] none none 16 March 2015
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Clarification request: Improving the clarity of Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions

Initiated by Yaris678 at 14:27, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Statement by Yaris678

I have tweaked the wording of Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions in a draft version at User:Yaris678/Discretionary sanctions. I don't believe this proposed wording changes the meaning of the text but I do believe it makes it easier to follow, especially for those not familiar with the workings of ArbCom.

The table below list these changes with an explanation of each one. I would appreciate it if the committee would consider these changes for implementation.

A
Text in current wording edited by Roger Davies at 11:15, 11 March 2015 		B
Text in proposed wording edited by Yaris678 at 10:42, 12 March 2015 		Explanation
1 Lead
No lead
 		Discretionary sanctions seek to maintain an acceptable collaborative editing environment for even our most contentious articles, by allowing administrators to impose restrictions on editors that severely or persistently disrupt that environment. Sanctions may only be used in authorised areas of conflict and include topic bans and temporary blocks. This will enable the page to explain what discretionary sanctions are relatively quickly in a way that Wikipedia users appreciate elsewhere on the site, including on policy and procedure pages.
2.1 Decorum Certain pages (typically, AE, AN, and ARCA) are used for the fair, well-informed, and timely resolution of discretionary sanction enforcement cases. Certain pages (typically, AE, AN, and ARCA) are used for the fair, well-informed, and timely resolution of discretionary sanction enforcement cases. Although these terms are explained in the "Definitions" section, people may jump to one of these sections and wonder what the terms are. Providing Wikilinks addresses this. In the proposed text, wikilinks are not provided if an abbreviation occurs soon after a previous explanation or wikilink for the term.
2.2 Expectations of administrators Prior routine enforcement interactions, prior administrator participation in enforcement discussions, or when an otherwise uninvolved administrator refers a matter to AE to elicit the opinion of other administrators or refers a matter to the committee at ARCA, do not constitute or create involvement. Prior routine enforcement interactions, prior administrator participation in enforcement discussions, or when an otherwise uninvolved administrator refers a matter to AE to elicit the opinion of other administrators or refers a matter to the committee at ARCA, do not constitute or create involvement.
2.3 Sanctions Prior to placing sanctions that are likely to be controversial, administrators are advised to elicit the opinions of other administrators at AE. Prior to placing sanctions that are likely to be controversial, administrators are advised to elicit the opinions of other administrators at AE.
3 Sanctions Any uninvolved administrator is authorised to place: revert and move restrictions, interaction bans, topic bans, and blocks of up to one year in duration, or other reasonable measure that the enforcing administrator believes is necessary and proportionate for the smooth running of the project. Uninvolved administrators are authorised to place reasonable measures that they believe to be necessary and proportionate for the smooth running of the project, including: Bulletise list and re-order sentence to make it easier to follow.
4 Appeals by sanctioned editors 3. submit a request for amendment at "ARCA". 3. submit a request for amendment at requests for amendment ("ARCA"). Consistency with point 2 of the list.

Moved from other sections

In reply to Coldacid I'm happy to lose the word "only". Yaris678 (talk) 17:29, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In reply to GoodDay Adding in the words "broadly construed" sounds like a good idea. Yaris678 (talk) 18:52, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by coldacid

@Yaris678: I think the part that "raises the bar" is Sanctions may only be used in authorised areas of conflict and include topic bans and temporary blocks. In particular, the "may only" part should probably be just "may", although since I'm not an arb I look forward to one of them correcting me. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 16:58, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by GoodDay

The broadly construde part of my own Arb restriction is quite clear to me. On the 2 occassions that I breached it (on my own talkpage), the result was a 1-week block & a 1-month block. The question might be, are editors under arb restrictions being dealt with evenly when they breach. GoodDay (talk) 18:48, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by NE Ent

Ds-Alerts are a techno-bureaucratic abomination which should be marked historical as soon as possible. Let's look at the wording: The Arbitration Committee has authorised discretionary sanctions to be used for pages regarding See #topic codes for options, a topic which you have edited. The Committee's decision is blah blah
Discretionary sanctions is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimize disruption to controversial topics. This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to the topic that do not adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, our standards of behavior, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. This message is to notify you sanctions are authorised for the topic you are editing. Before continuing to edit this topic, please familiarise yourself with the discretionary sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions.
This message is informational only and does not imply misconduct regarding your contributions to date.
What rubbish. In other words, I pretty much have to lie / prevaricate, for the following reasons:
  1. "This message is informational only" Do you think I just wasted too much of time reading through "To see whether a user has been Alerted to discretionary sanctions, ..." and doing that nonsense for "information only?" No, I think the editor is acting like a dweeb and it is my intent to rat them out at WP:AE if it continues.
  2. "Don't hesitate to contact me " Actually, I'd greatly prefer it if you hesitate. If I thought there's any chance addressing you like a reasonable person would work, I'd have done it already rather than dealing with the ds/alert nonsense.
  3. (Not really important, but) "authorised" "Discretionary sanctions is" "familiarise" ... do I sound like a Brit/Aussie/Kiwi/Indian et. al? I'm an American: Baseball, Mom, Apple Pie and "sanctions are," "authorized," "familiarize." I respect your dialect of English please respect mine.
Ds/alert are dehumanizing interaction for both the notifier and notifiee, contrary to the gestalt of the collaboration ideal of Wikipedia. The barriers to entry are over complicated instructions are the danger of getting sanctions if you post an alert 364 days after the last one. I understand the history; the newer system is an improvement over the prior "angst over warnings" system. But it's an unnecessary Rube Goldberg. We already have an existing, simple, easily and widely understood system for notifying and then enforcing remedies: the WP:3RR system. Please just use that. NE Ent 08:47, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by NewsAndEventsGuy

On point 3, add a bullet for the original omitted text "or other reasonable measure". Otherwise, these are great suggestions and I agree with all the other wordsmithing feedback submitted thus far. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 09:29, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.

Improving the clarity of Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Improving the clarity of Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • On a first read I'm inclined to agree with 1, 2 and 4 without comment. Point 3 though changes "any uninvolved administrator" to "uninvolved administrators", which could be interpreted as meaning an administrator may no longer act alone. I like the rest of the change though. Thryduulf (talk) 14:49, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • So far I'm with Thrydulf. Yaris687's suggested change seems to work. Of course, I may have missed something being still green. Dougweller (talk) 16:12, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Yaris678, I'm afraid I got the wrong end of the stick when you were asking at WT:AC about clarifications. I'd assumed you had some major points that needed urgently sorting ... As you know, DS is a committee procedure (with the force of policy) and changes can only be made by motion. Looking at your suggestions, none are urgent so best is to address them in the next housekeeping DS motion (probably in a couple of months). Incidentally, Point One is inaccurate and explicitly raises the bar at which DS can be imposed, which I'm sure was not intended. Thanks very much for your input,  Roger Davies talk 16:30, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yaris678 To clarify, DS isn't about "[imposing] restrictions on editors that severely or persistently disrupt that environment", that can be done by admin under normal admin discretion. Instead, it allows admins deal with any misconduct, even minor misconduct, in sensitive/hot button/tinderbox articles. ie zero tolerance.  Roger Davies talk 18:26, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Coldacid Yes, you make a good point there too. DS is typically for "edits about, or pages relating to [topic]" and are also about exporting disputes into fresh areas outside the specific area of conflict,  Roger Davies talk 18:30, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strike the "only" and I don't see this makes a difference, so, totally indifferent, really. Neither set of wording has any problems. Courcelles (talk) 17:16, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm pretty well indifferent on these too, and agree having them in with general housekeeping rather than as a special request. Seraphimblade Talk to me 03:06, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Amendment request: GamerGate

Initiated by Rhoark at 04:08, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
GamerGate arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate#Scope_of_standard_topic_ban_.28I.29


List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Information about amendment request
  • Create an additional remedy, hereafter termed "standard topic ban (II)" constructed as follows: Any editor restricted per this remedy is indefinitely prohibited from making any edit about (a) Gamergate, (b) sexism in video games, (c) people associated with (a) or (b), all broadly construed. These restrictions may be appealed to the Committee only after 12 months have elapsed from the closing of this case.

Convert all existing restrictions under standard topic ban (I) or functionally identical to standard topic ban (I) to standard topic ban (II). Any uninvolved administrator may henceforth apply either standard topic ban I or II as a discretionary sanction, as seems most appropriate to prevent disruption.


Statement by Rhoark

Apologies if this request is improper in any way, but as an affected party I would like to request amendment to a sanction I believe is ineffective. The question of what constitutes a "gender-related dispute", and the continuing off-site attention to the matter is causing more disruption than I believe would result from a narrower topic ban on the affected individuals. Except for one of them, I doubt those that are not already indef blocked would actually disrupt other gender controversy pages due to sour grapes (especially after 3 months to cool off), so its mostly a WP:BEANS restriction. I've also heard it claimed the resulting off-site campaigning is further discouraging female participation in Wikipedia, which is a hot-button issue. I don't have firsthand knowledge of that. I share @TheRedPenOfDoom:'s concerns about setting a precedent of bending to campaigns organized off-wiki, but I think on the whole this will improve the collaborative editing environment. Rhoark (talk) 04:08, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've responded to Hipocrite's statements about my editing history, which he also made at AE. It would be helpful if everyone would centralize discussion on that to over there. Rhoark (talk) 15:22, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've tossed the ball and will try to avoid too much of trying to steer it by blowing on it, but I'd like to share the analogy I brought up in the other thread: the more you squeeze a handful of sand, the faster it slips through your fingers. There are problems at the root of the misbehavior that are fixable, but not by doubling down on the same strategy. This is not, as some have suggested, evidence of incompetence or malice at arbcom, so trying a different tack need not be considered an admission of such. No one in history has ever dealt with quite the same situation. Rhoark (talk) 19:19, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by NorthBySouthBaranof

Statement by MarkBernstein

Statement by TKOP

  • Support Amendment - A wise narrowing of the overly broad existing restrictions. Just narrow it to GamerGate, and if trouble brews again, widen a bit further. That some have been flirting the restrictions, and with the general malaise-ish support to the point that admins are letting things go is telling.Two kinds of porkMakin'Bacon 05:15, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • To the arbitrators: Would one of you briefly explain why the sanctions are broader than GG? Was there something in the case that was the impetus for a gender controversy ban?. MRA perhaps?Two kinds of porkMakin'Bacon 21:30, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by TheRedPenOfDoom

Statement by coldacid

@Thryduulf: My feeling on this is that it'll do nothing but promote further boundary testing. The rational part of me doesn't quite agree, but I'd certainly argue against converting the existing bans to the type II proposed above if it is added to the remedies. I'd say to Two kinds of pork's comment that general malaise-ish support to the point that admins are letting things go is not a fault with the topic ban's scope, but rather with admins who are putting the optics of the situation ahead of doing the right thing for Wikipedia.

I'm not entirely opposed to adding the additional topic ban scope, I'm just not sure if it'll actually result in the environment that Rhoark and TheRedPenOfDoom hope for. And I fear that reducing existing tbans to the lighter scope will only encourage those currently under the existing scope to cause further problems in the topic space. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 12:41, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Squiggleslash: Lena Dunham isn't covered under the GG topic ban scope because she's a woman. The article on her is covered because of controversies related to her book, including the rape allegations made by her as well as the part that has been interpreted as admission of rape of her own sister. Please don't go on with that canard that she and all other women with articles are in scope because of their gender. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 13:40, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Hipocrite: If Rhoark is such an obvious sockpuppet then why don't you report them to WP:SPI? That's what it's there for. Otherwise you're simply casting aspersions. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 14:46, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Thryduulf: Please note that Hipocrite has made the same accusation also on AE.[3] // coldacid (talk|contrib) 14:49, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Courcelles makes a good point responding to a comment by Salvio giuliano below, regarding subclause (i)(c) of the discretionary sanctions clause in the case remedies. However, it seems that the prevailing interpretation is that parts of biographical articles that don't deal with GG or gender-related disputes are acceptable areas for edits by people currently under the GG topic ban. Perhaps if there's any clarification or loosening of the topic ban restriction to be done, it should be to codify this interpretation only. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 01:42, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by squiggleslash

Makes sense to me, especially as admins seem to be stretching what constitutes a controversy or gender related (Lena Dunham is a woman, therefore gender related; some universities have controversies related to their sexual assault policies/some women have falsely accused men of rape on campus therefore Campus Rape is controversial despite nobody mainstream actually being in favor of it)

I would replace the existing topic ban with this, not add it as an option, and see about creating a more broader topic ban with better language. But given that suggestion will be ignored, I agree with adding it as an option as proposed by the initiator of this proposal. --Squiggleslash (talk) 12:57, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Coldacid - You're explaining the justification for Lena Dunham being a "controversy" which wasn't in dispute.

@GorillaWarfare - I wouldn't interpret this as narrowing the scope as creating a well defined scope. The current scope is highly open to interpretation, a sizable gulf exists between what editors (and most people outside of Wikipedia) think is meant by "Gender based controversy" and what admins/Arbcom does. What supporters of the status quo are calling "boundary pushing" isn't boundary pushing, it's people who believe they're on the outside of the boundary.

@GorillaWarfare and other admins now forming views similar to those expressed - OK, well just be aware that this amendment is being proposed to deal with a significant issue, and that it seems likely that unless addressed the relevant Wikipedian disciplinary bureaucracy seems likely to continue to be abused, day in, day out, by the usual suspects bringing in attempts to harass editors whose edits they disagree with. This fix would not, by itself, completely solve it, but the issues can't be solved without this type of fix. As far as the topics under discussion go: I would hope admins and Arbcom recognize there's a difference between personally believing that something fits a particular definition, and believing that everyone else must share the same views. Unfortunately it sounds, from comments like "Toeing the line not attempting to steer clear of the topic area" that this isn't the case, that you can't imagine why anyone would disagree with you, and that you're assuming bad faith in anyone who expresses an opinion on the subject you disagree with. (And for reference, I don't think either topic can be described as either - one isn't controversial, the other isn't gender related) I hope this is not the case and I'm simply misunderstanding this.

@Seraphimblade - It doesn't sound like the specific abuses you're concerned about, people finding excuses to talk about Gamergate, would be affected by placing them under this topic ban. I'm also a little concerned that much of the opposition to this proposal focuses on whether the right message is being sent by "narrowing" the ban, rather than trying to ensure the right thing is done. Is it a problem if an established, reputable, editor who was sanctioned and topic banned for being slightly uncivil and reverting a few consensus-opposed edits on the Gamergate page, corrects problems on the Lena Dunham page? Is this really what you're trying to prevent?

It seems that the current consensus is "We think Lena Dunham is a gender-related controversy and it's impossible for anyone to disagree with us and not know we think that", and "We can't allow there to be a clearer, tighter, standard topic ban because in some unspecified way that would be rewarding people who are confused by the current ban." I respectfully ask those of you stating those positions to review whether or not they make sense. --Squiggleslash (talk) 20:10, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Tarc here. Hoping the next group of people who make up Arbcom have a better handle on how to prevent drama, and the sanity of punishing its victims. Unwatching. --Squiggleslash (talk) 13:02, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Beauxlieux

First, the restriction should be for the GamerGate Controversy, not GamerGate, that's the ant, which as far as I know isn't an issue.

Second, the way Wikipedia archives arbitration, the history is not included so @Squiggleslash:'s valuable comments which they chose to redact aren't included after the IMHO inappropriate comments, but the comments are in the history here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment&direction=prev&oldid=651502323 (and yes, I'm a new editor, and if I spend all my time trying to figure out how to make all these fancy links, I won't write this) The inappropriate questioning of Squiggleslash's integrity, however, remains in the arbitration archives, and I'm glad about that.

So, @Rhoark: in terms of your concern, "I've also heard it claimed the resulting off-site campaigning is further discouraging female participation in Wikipedia, which is a hot-button issue." The behavior here is what is discouraging female participation. Exposing that behavior isn't the problem. Women appreciate knowing what they may be getting themselves into and making informed decisions based on the reality of what is actually happening in the forum. Calling rape "a gender-related controversy" is disheartening to many women. It is not validating survivors. Rape is rape.

Furthermore, I think these bans and sanctions should be accompanied by a requirement of an apology as I outline here: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Require_Apologies That would help create a more civil environment which would be welcoming to women. 

Beauxlieux (talk) 16:14, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Hipocrite

Why is Rhoark, an obvious sockpuppet participating in administrative spaces unblocked? Hipocrite (talk) 13:48, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

An editor who joins in late 2014 doesn't know about WP:REICHSTAG. SPI takes too much time for me to deal with right now. If that's a problem for you, feel free to remove this. Hipocrite (talk) 14:44, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by TenOfAllTrades

(ec) @Thryduulf: I assume that Hipocrite noted that Rhoark is a sockpuppet, based on the very conspicuous behavioral clues. Demanding a full noticeboard discussion and bureaucratic performance before being allowed to acknowledge the obvious is unproductive and unhelpful. I'm not involved in this area at all and I'm only commenting because I saw your response go by on my watchlist, but even I can see that Rhoark was not a new user when he created his account.

When an obviously-experienced editor creates a new account solely to work in a controversial area, it legitimately raises eyebrows. Even if no one can be bothered to formally analyze and report the duck, it's silly and disingenuous to pretend that we can't hear it quacking. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:18, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Bosstopher: Hell, I've been around since 2004 and I still don't fully grasp what happens inside <ref> tags. The fact that he was using that markup at all (rather than just, e.g., bare inline links) is indicative of significant experience.
I will also note that I made no suggestion as to the identity of the original account, and don't know if they're from 2006 or 2012. I don't know who it would be, and I wouldn't expect to know; as I said, I'm not at all involved in this area (either as an editor or administratively). Since SPI won't do "fishing expeditions", we're left with the situation we have here—an obvious alternate account (albeit one without an obvious master), created exclusively to edit in a contentious area, is now participating in (and initiating) administrative processes. If the ArbCom wants to encourage and defend such shenanigans, that's on them. But it's definitely not misconduct or inappropriate for Hipocrite to take note of the situation. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:58, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tarc

Placeholder, lack the time to make a full comment atm.

Note that I revised the "party clown car" header above; there's a level of decorum I expect from editors with whom I have no prior relationship. This did not meet it.

Thryduulf, et al, this isn't so much about boundary testing as it is about people wanting to know where the flippin' the boundary is. The only way to ensure complete safety for oneself is to pull a TDA and stop editing altogether. So you either issued a) de facto sitebans or b) set us up to fail with an impossibly broad and vague topic ban. No one in their right mind would think "campus rape" is a "gender dispute". Gender touches every aspect of daily life, it is everywhere and anywhere; you simply cannot use that broad of a brush. Can we edit Susan B Anthony? The Birdcage? Murder of Du'a Khalil Aswad? Bra burning? How about sub-sections, Dolce_& Gabbana#Gay adoption controversy? Tarc (talk) 17:49, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Arbcom; they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Un-watching and climbing back into the clown car. Tarc (talk) 02:07, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Bosstopher

Please accept this ammendment Arbcom. The purpose of a topic ban is to prevent disruption. The current scope of the standard Gamergate topic ban only serves to cause disruption. Bosstopher (talk) 15:38, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@TenOfAllTrades: So we're meant to believe that Rhoark, a supposed sock puppet of someone who's been around since 2006, at no point in his decade of wikipedia editing, learnt that you're not meant to use bare-refs as citations? Knowing that policies like OR exist before editing, is a sign of responsible editing that should be encouraged.Bosstopher (talk) 15:38, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sappow

It seems like what's really needed is clarification and enforcement; it does not necessarily have to be done by narrowing the scope, but it really does seem like a good idea to do it by some means, perhaps even just making a mission statement for what your desired outcome is. This process of enforcement-by-swarm-of-bees is really not a positive one for any outcome that involves the controversy cooling off and not giving everyone constant headaches, and the ambiguity of how the ruling can be interpreted does not help.

I don't know what your preferred outcome would be, but maybe you should just make a statement along the lines of "just stop participating in controversial zones at all, look at all these articles about census data in Kazakhstan that need the attention of an experienced editor, why don't you go help touch up those some? Chill.", if that is the intended goal of the sanctions.

It may also make sense to have some sort of contagion rule applied to the sanctions, because the way people keep pursuing sanctioned individuals like Mark Bernstein around to look for minor violations to open (yet another...) complaint and filing seems like a form of behavior that should be flat out punished itself, if the goal is to have the controversy cool down so good articles can be written. Essentially, if people persist in following around the sanctioned individuals and being hypervigiliant to bring the controversy to their actions anywhere for the slightest mis-step, they should catch some full bore sanctions themselves. Sappow (talk) 21:50, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Metamagician3000

The topic ban is intended to be broadly construed. The editors concerned need to accept that - as do any other editors who might be tempted to assist them - instead of trying to test the boundaries. Admins also need to understand the broad nature of the topic ban and enforce it. Editors against whom adverse findings were made, with sanctions such as topic bans, should not be given areas in which they are free to keep warring: they should understand that battleground tactics and non-neutral approaches to editing are unwelcome, and they should err on the side of keeping away from any articles that push their emotional/political buttons. The outcome of the case was clear, so I suggest that the request be rejected. If it's accepted, it should only be for the purpose of underlining the broad nature of the ban. Metamagician3000 (talk) 02:52, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.

Gamergate: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Gamergate: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • I've read the statements so far and I'm so far undecided on the request's merits, so I'd like see more opinions. Particularly I really don't want to be sending a message that encourages boundary testing, so any thoughts on that would be particularly welcome. Thryduulf (talk) 12:21, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Having given this more thought and read the additional comments, I'm going to agree with my colleagues and decline to narrow the scope. The correct way to deal with the disruption evident here is for the topic banned editors to steer well clear of the topic area (and read the definitions given by arbitrators, such as Salvio below, not what someone happens to have written on a blog somewhere) and spend time improving the many areas of Wikipedia and/or sister projects that need work. If you don't do this then you will find yourself unable to edit anywhere on Wikipedia and you will have only yourself to blame. Thryduulf (talk) 21:36, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Hipocrite: If you have evidence that a user is a sockpuppet editing in violation of the relevant policy, then present that evidence at the appropriate venue (e.g. WP:SPI or WP:AN/I). If that evidence shows that they are a sockpuppet their contributions will be dealt with accordingly, if the evidence does not show that they are an editor who has been blocked or banned from participating here then their contributions will remain. Casting aspersions without evidence, as you have done above, is not permitted so either back up your accusation with evidence or remove it. Thryduulf (talk) 14:37, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Indeed, avoiding boundary testing was the main concern, but it does not seem to have altogether avoided it. Probably for most subjects, not just this one, any subject-based restriction will always do that if people involved are greatly devoted to the general topic area and not willing to switch interests altogether, or if the people involved are likely to do boundary-testing because they think they have been treated unjustly and see this as the most effective way of challenging the decision, or if they are people who would find the process intrinsically attractive. The insistence above that some topics are not related would seem to indicate the broad bans are needed, (not, for example, that anyone is in favor of Campus Rate, but there are extremely strong disagreements both about the way of dealing with the problem and about individual cases). However, they do place a possibly over-extensive degree of discretion upon individual admins. On balance, I would not narrow the bans. DGG ( talk ) 14:16, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Continued disruption in the topic area is a terrible reason to narrow the scope of the topic bans. GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:32, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Squiggleslash: Changing the restriction from "any gender-related dispute or controversy" to "sexism in video games" is unequivocally a narrowing of the topic ban. I understand that there has been some uncertainty about the exact boundaries of the topic ban (some of which appears to be in good faith, some of which is probably not), but I always feel that the best approach with "broadly construed" topic bans is to leave a wide berth. The topics mentioned in this CaAR, Lena Dunham and campus rape, appear to me to be toeing the line, not attempting to steer clear of the topic area. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:21, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agreed with GorillaWarfare, the current scope needs to be enforced, and boundary testing dealt with, not the scope narrowed in response to it. Courcelles (talk) 17:14, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • What they said. Salvio Let's talk about it! 17:18, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • We think Lena Dunham is a gender-related controversy. No, we don't think Lena Dunham is a gender-related controversy; we believe that a part of her biography deals with a gender-related controversy and edits to that part, and only that part, of her biography are covered by discretionary sanctions and by the various topic bans imposed during the GamerGate case. The rest of Dunham's biography is only covered by WP:NEWBLPBAN, but then again all biographies of living people are covered by it. Regardless of what Bernstein wrote, biographies of living women disliked by the American Right are not covered by the GG discretionary sanctions; and neither are the biographies of lesbian, gay, transgender, or gender-queer people. Specific parts of their biographies may be covered, if they deal with gender-related disputes, but, other than that, those biographies are only covered by WP:NEWBLPBAN. Salvio Let's talk about it! 20:18, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm absolutely not inclined to narrow the scope of any restrictions here. Having watched several discussions over this issue, I've seen topic banned editors continue to blatantly engage in general discussion about GamerGate, let alone peripheral issues. This is normally done under the cover of an enforcement thread not against that editor, or clarification requests that are taken well beyond asking for legitimate and good faith clarification into lobbying and general discussion. If the disruption is still that ongoing, that is if anything an argument for more severity in the sanctions, not less. A topic ban means to drop the related items off your watchlist and stop having anything to do with them altogether, and if something is in a grey area, preferably, stay away, and at most, ask for clarification before touching it. This boundary testing must stop, but it certainly must not be rewarded by moving the boundaries. Seraphimblade Talk to me 18:18, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm also absolutely disinclined to change the topic ban. With 4 700 000+ articles to choose from on the English Wikipedia, it's not as if there's a shortage of other stuff to edit. Also, unless people stop dwelling on the topic ban (and I include the endless requests here and at WP:AE), we'll need to introduce more robust measures to make people disengage.  Roger Davies talk 08:36, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]


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