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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Shicoco (talk | contribs) at 20:33, 22 June 2015 (→‎Corn in non-U.S. usage). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Maize vs. corn: Summary of arguments

Before I updated some the arguments, "maize" had only one argument for it, with a very strong objection, and "corn" had several arguments for it, with several objections, some weak, some strong. I understand both sides, but it seems everything boils down to this: "Maize" is used only in the UK. "Corn" is used pretty much everywhere else, and is understood and used to some extent in the UK. "Maize" is not widely understood and is not used outside the UK.

To summarize, "maize" is limited in usage and understanding, and "corn" is almost universally recognized (though this is not always the case). Shicoco (talk) 20:10, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think I have ever read a more biased and inaccurate summary of a long-running argument! fortunately the matter has been settled for years, and the community has little appetite for re-opening it. Johnbod (talk) 20:18, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I am summarizing what is below. Please update below if you think necessary. According to below, the support is overwhelmingly for "Corn", but the request to move was left sitting for years. Shicoco (talk) 20:22, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Here are the leading arguments on both sides of the maize-vs.-corn debate. In the future, instead of saying, "This has all been argued before," you can provide a link to this section so that new disputants can quickly get caught up. Contra the usual talk-page policy, I give you my permission to edit this section to make the arguments clearer or more persuasive, or to add arguments that I omitted. Please do not edit to weaken arguments, please do not add personal invective, and please do not sign your contributions. This section is for a clear and concise statement of the reasons for each position, not for back-and-forth arguing or conversation. —Ben Kovitz (talk) 12:29, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pro-maize

"Maize" is precise, "corn" is ambiguous

"Maize" is the vernacular word that means the species of plant that this article is about, in all regional varieties of English. "Corn" has a confusing variety of meanings that vary by locality. In particular, one common meaning of "corn" is whichever cereal crop is the staple in a given locality.

Objection "Maize" doesn't mean anything in Standard American English. Most educated people are well-read enough to understand it, just like most well-read people know what hola and bonjour mean, but you'll never hear someone using it naturally, and plenty of less-educated people simply won't understand it.

3a. collective singular. The seed of the cereal or farinaceous plants as a produce of agriculture; grain.

As a general term the word includes all the cereals, wheat, rye, barley, oats, maize, rice, etc., and, with qualification (as black corn, pulse corn), is extended to leguminous plants, as pease, beans, etc., cultivated for food. Locally, the word, when not otherwise qualified, is often understood to denote that kind of cereal which is the leading crop of the district; hence in the greater part of England ‘corn’ is = wheat, in North Britain and Ireland = oats; in the U.S. the word, as short for Indian corn, is restricted to maize (see 5).

5. orig. U.S. Maize or Indian corn, Zea Mays; applied both to the separated seeds, and to the growing or reaped crop. corn on the cob: green maize suitable for boiling or roasting; maize cooked and eaten on the cob.

Wheat, rye, barley, oats, etc. are in U.S. called collectively grain. Corn- in combinations, in American usage, must therefore be understood to mean maize, whereas in English usage it may mean any cereal; e.g. a cornfield in England is a field of any cereal that is grown in the country, in U.S. one of maize.

—Oxford English Dictionary's definition of "corn"

Wikipedia's guidelines for naming articles about plants favor using the scientific term unless the plant has a significant agricultural (or other) use, as this plant does; then, discuss towards consensus, favoring both precision and a vernacular term.

Pro-corn

Corn is overwhelmingly more used than maize

English-Speaking Countries That Use Maize: United Kingdom (population: 64,800,000)

English-Speaking Countries that Use Corn: United States (population: 321,255,000) Canada (population: 35,749,600) Australia (population: 23,886,200) New Zealand (population: 4,590,650)

English-Speaking Countries that Use Another Term: South Africa (population: 54,002,000)

Population that Uses Maize: 64,800,000

Population that Uses Corn: 385,481,450

Population that Uses Another Term: 54,002,000

Additionally, corn was discovered in North America, where the term used is "corn". North America is the largest producer of corn and the largest trader of it. Shicoco (talk) 19:39, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Corn is name used by the CME

Corn, not Maize, is traded.

Objection CME Group Inc. (Chicago Mercantile Exchange & Chicago Board of Trade) is a US 'derivatives marketplace' based in Chicago and in New York, thus one would expect CME Group to adopt US English language and usage. There are, of course, many similar markets outside the USA.

Reply to Objection I agree with the objection. I would note that the USA is the largest producer and trader of this crop. http://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/crops/corn/trade.aspx, however, I find this section of pro-corn to be irrelevant, and I am pro-corn. Shicoco (talk) 20:25, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Maize" is a formal, obscure word

Many more people know the word "corn" than know "maize". "Maize" is a somewhat formal, technical word, not as widely known. WP:COMMONNAME says that article titles should not be "pedantic".

Objection WP:Article titles, of which WP:COMMONNAME currently forms a subsection, states that one of the five characteristics of a good Wikipedia article is 'Precision – The title is sufficiently precise to unambiguously identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects'. Unlike the term 'maize', the term 'corn' is ambiguous, therefore 'maize' is to be preferred.

Reply to Objection "Maize" is not precise, because it is rather meaningless where "corn" is used. "Corn" is extremely precise; where the term is predominately used, it is universally understood to mean only the cereal crop in question. Even in the UK, according to the article, "corn" is sometimes understood as the crop in question. Shicoco (talk) 19:44, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Searchability

Google searches show the word "corn" used much more than "maize". Consequently, readers are much more likely to look up "corn" than "maize". Titling the article "Corn" would make the information easy for most people to find. Titling it "Maize" makes it hard for people to find.

Objection On 1-Oct-2012, this article came up as the #1 result on Google and Bing, and the #2 result on Yahoo!. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn redirects to Maize. Calling this article "Maize" is not presenting an obstacle for people looking up "corn", even for people who don't know the word "maize".

Reply to Objection The same could be said for people who search "maize" and end up with an article entitled "corn". Shicoco (talk) 19:46, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The most prevalent usage in native English should be chosen

  • "Maize" is seemingly only used in the UK.
  • The U.S. has more native English speakers than any other country.
  • The U.S. produces a massive amount of this plant, more than any other country in the word. Within the U.S. itself, the U.S.A. produces more metric tons of "corn" than any other crop by far. Thus it's a relatively common subject-of-reference in U.S.-English conversation.
Among the top 9 countries in terms of "corn" production, the U.S. is the only one with English as the de-facto/primary language; so, the usage of the word "corn" over "maize" is not only dominated by the sheer numbers of U.S. English speakers, but also because people in the U.S. are, with good reason, more likely to reference this plant in a variety of conversations (e.g. "My first-ever job as a kid was detasseling corn" or "I'm sure the corn farmers will be happy with this rain") than people in other countries on average (as corn in other countries, and especially in English-speaking countries, is not nearly as ubiquitous).
  • Maize is an obscure word in the U.S.

Thus, titling this Wikipedia page "maize" seems a bit like titling a Wikipedia page "camellia" and then redirecting "tea" to that page. Or more precisely, it would be like if the Chinese grew a plant they called "foo", and (1) the most "foo" in the world was grown in China, and (2) China produced more foo than anything else they grew by far. However, the Standard Chinese Language wiki page for "foo" redirected to "paz", a word that most Chinese people were unfamiliar with. And the argument was that people in northern Singapore called spinach "foo" and people in the Borneo region of Malaysia called palm oil "foo" (not as the actual plant name, but in reference to the idea that they made a lot of it).

Objection The English Wikipedia (en.wikipedia.org) does not favor any national variety of English; see WP:ENGVAR. The English language today is the world's leading lingua franca. English is a second language for the great majority of its speakers, most of whom do not live in the U.S. See English language#Geographical distribution and List of countries by English-speaking population.

Reply to Objection From WP:ENGVAR: "Universally used terms are often preferable to less widely distributed terms, especially in article titles. For example, glasses is preferred to the national varieties spectacles (British English) and eyeglasses (American English); ten million is preferable to one crore (Indian English)." "Corn" is used in the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and is understood in the UK. "Maize" is only widely understood in the UK, and is not used elsewhere. Shicoco (talk) 19:59, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Inconsistent with other usage

No one says "popmaize", "maize on the cob", etc. The WP:FLORA guidelines say to favor consistency.

Objection These examples actually illustrate the highly varied, ambiguous meaning of "corn". The definition below explains why no one says "peppermaize" or "barleymaize".

2. spec. The small hard seed or fruit of a plant; now only with contextual specification or defining attribute, as in barley-corn, pepper-corn, etc.

a. A seed of one of the cereals, as of wheat, rye, barley, etc.

—Oxford English Dictionary's definition of "corn"

It isn't unusual for regional terminology to vary according to context. For example, small sweets are called "candy" in the U.S. and "lollies" in Australia, but Americans and Australians alike enjoy "lollipops" and "candy canes"; no one calls them "candy pops" or "lollicanes".

Reply to objection - yet the term lollies redirects to Confectionery while Candy has a dedicated wikipedia page.

2nd Reply to Objection Where used for "maize", "corn" means only the crop in question. It is only when a qualifier is added that it means something else. Using "maize" produces inconsistency, because "corn" with a qualifier has to be used so much. Shicoco (talk) 20:02, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Corn in non-U.S. usage

Some readers have offered anecdotes of personal experience, observing that if you asked for "maize" in a restaurant in England, the waiter would look at you funny. A reader offered a recipe from a British web site (no longer available) that listed "corn from 1 corn-cob, removed and toasted" among its ingredients. These show that in the present day, even outside the U.S., the specific sense of "corn" to mean maize has displaced its older, generic sense of any cereal grain or a local staple grain.

Objection These examples actually illustrate the complexity and ambiguity of the word "corn". The word "cob" provides context that shifts the meaning of "corn" to maize, even in England. People do refer to maize as "corn" outside the U.S., but usually with some sort of qualifier, such as "sweet corn".

Reply to Objection This is only true in the United Kingdom. Everywhere else, "corn" by itself means "maize". Shicoco (talk) 20:33, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Other encyclopedias say "corn"

Britannica's article about this plant is titled "corn", therefore "corn" means the same thing in British usage.

Objection Despite its name, Britannica is an American publication, following U.S. usage.

Biblical mention of "corn"

Just curious about the America's being mentioned as first source of corn/maize. In the Bible in the old testament corn is mention many times and I cannot believe Europe was not exposed to corn from the Mideast. I ref KJV Deu 11:14 That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy CORN, and thy wine, and thine oil. Deu 33:28 Israel then shall dwell in safety alone: the fountain of Jacob shall be upon a land of CORN and wine; also his heavens shall drop down dew.

Perhaps my confusion is that corn in the ancient Mideast is not anything close to corn in the Americas? DM Hendrix — Preceding unsigned comment added by DMhendrix (talk • contribs) 16:21, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

See the confusion caused by the American use of the word "corn" for "maize" here above in section "Maize vs. corn". - Takeaway (talk) 16:32, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
On the Bible reference, which version of the Bible are you referring to? Some older versions do use corn. This is actually very related to why we prefer use maize as the common name in agronomic circles because corn can be used to refer to grains in general. This is one of those cases, but it could be worth including as a one-liner somewhere with a Bible commentary as a source. Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:35, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently the Hebrew word dagan occurs 39 times in the Old Testament.[1] The word is almost always translated as grain in modern translations[2], though the Complete Jewish Bible translation uses wheat for Deut. 11:14. Rmhermen (talk) 18:17, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Abnormal flowers

User Anthony Appleyard has written the section below for addition to the article. The content is not discussed in encyclopedic format but rather an internal wikisource reference is used (discouraged) and images are shown without using WP:CITE templates for exact references. I feel this is a lazy edit without encyclopedic context why it should be included; WP:NOTIMAGE and WP:NOTJOURNAL apply. --Zefr (talk) 14:22, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sometimes in maize, inflorescences are found containing both male and female flowers, or hermaphrodite flowers. Article about hermaphrodite and feminized maize tasselsHermaphrodite maize inflorescence: cob on the end of a long tassel[3][4]Hermaphrodite maize tassels

in my view the source is fine (wikisources are just public domain articles) and the formatting in this dif is fine too. 24.90.102.192 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 14:45, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 22 June 2015

Maize → Corn – Rough consensus reached. Corn is used everywhere and has a precise and single meaning, except in the UK. Please see top for current discussion. Shicoco (talk) 20:18, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not even close to a consensus for this move. Jytdog (talk) 20:27, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If there is not a consensus, then please add more support for "maize". Shicoco (talk) 20:32, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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