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RM, Holocaust -> The Holocaust, Moved/Reverted, 1 August 2013, Revert requested
Development and Execution > Origins
The first paragraph in this section reads:
"Yehuda Bauer and Lucy Dawidowicz maintained that from the Middle Ages onward, German society and culture were suffused with antisemitism, and that there was a direct ideological link from medieval pogroms to the Nazi death camps.[35]"
I have two comments:
1) This passage seems unduly one-sided. Antisemitism is by no means a particularly German phenomenon, but rather part of a broader Christian tradition (witness Spanish expulsion of Jews after the Reconquista, French antisemitism in Dreyfus affair, Norwegian closure of borders to Jews until 1851 etc. etc.).
2) The references adduced seem random. Why are these two authors in particular singled out here? I do not have access to the Bauer text, but I have consulted Dawidowicz. In the referenced passage she says nothing about the Middle Ages (nor about any "direct ideological link from medieval pogroms to the Nazi death camps"), but gives a brief (<1 page) discussion of Martin Luther's views and compares them to Hitler's.
In my opinion the paragraph should be rewritten as an ultra-short outline of Christian/European antisemitism, perhaps with a reference or two to authors that have given extensive and in-depth treatment of the history of this theme. Since I am not a specialist, I cannot with confidence suggest such a text myself. Filursiax (talk) 01:01, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
—I disagree that the article is unbalanced this way. By and large, it is not.
The article correctly points out that the Nazi genocide of the Jews was primarily a racist one, not a Christian one, although Christian Anti-Judaism made it harder for Christians to systematically oppose Nazi Anti-Semitism early on, when it could have been--perhaps--more effectively opposed.
Anyway many Christians were also subject to victimization in the Holocaust in the broader sense of the term--the sense which this article adopts for the most part.
However, I agree with Filursiax that the sources chosen on the subject are rather arbitrary and perhaps not well used.
For instance, if one wants to look at the ways Nazi ideology, including Nazi Anti-Semitism, drew in Christian elements that existed in German culture,
the source to use is Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, e.g. pp. 261-263, where he argues that the Christians most co-opted by Nazism ideologically, including in their hostility to the Jews, were the kind of nationalist Protestants known as "Positive Christians."
Including something about this would counterbalance the quite debatable implication of Mommsen that Catholics were more prone to accept Nazi claims about the Jews. 75.114.193.123 (talk) 20:54, 16 June 2015 (UTC)Dracontius[reply]
I don't have access to either source, so I can not comment on their validity. However, if they do say what was cited, can we remove it simply because we don't like the tone? It isn't a biased statement, but a proposed statement of fact. If the sources are not valid, the statement should be removed for that reason, but if it sourced correctly, it should stay. Goalie1998 (talk) 21:08, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Dracontius, my remarks did not concern the article as a whole, only the quoted passage from the first paragraph in this section, which claims that "from the Middle Ages onward, German society and culture were suffused with antisemitism," and that "there was a direct ideological link from medieval pogroms to the Nazi death camps" (my underlinings). Aside from the fact that Dawidowicz makes no such claims, my main objection was that the passage insinuates (cf. the underlined superlatives) that Nazi anti-semitism sprang from uniquely German roots, while in fact anti-semitism is a European phenomenon, with roots that go back through the Middle Ages to the split between Christianity and Judaism in the 1st century AD. Placing the blame so squarely on German shoulders is not only unreasonable, but historically incorrect. I can find reputable sources who support this view, but I don't have time to do any massive bibliographical sleuthing. (Full disclosure: I am myself neither Jewish nor German.)
- Goalie1998, Dawidowicz is definitely incorrectly quoted here. I have not read Bauer, but even if he does propose a fact, I think he should not be included. The trouble with the passage is not that it speaks of a German tradition of anti-semitism, but that it does not even mention that this German tradition was embedded in a wider European tradition. For the reader it must seem that historically, the German tradition (since the Middle Ages!) was in some way a uniquely vicious form of anti-semitism... Of course it would be possible to check the Bauer reference, find other references that support other notable historians' points of view on the subject, and go into the whole argument broadly, but it seems to me that this (at least) would mean that the paragraph would have to be expanded to whole new section. I suggest, instead, that we delete the passage for now, and if necessary return to it later, to give it a broader and more balanced treatment. Filursiax (talk) 00:41, 20 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A brief reply—I am far from my libes. A quick look at the references is that they are wrong. While both report that German religious anti-semitism in the Middle Ages provided fertile ground for the virulent modern German variety culminating in the Nazi form. Dawidowicz writes: “modern German anti-Semitism had more recent roots than Luther and grew out of a different soil…” Bauer in his review of Goldhagen in Rethinking the Holocaust finds the argument that "Germans killed the Jews…because they had wanted to since the Middle Ages” to be “mindless simplicity.” I would agree to deleting the passage. It might be good to add something about the Europe-wide religious anti-semitism, particularly of the Roman Catholic church, which Luther built upon. This is particularly relevant to Germany as Luther wrote his pamphlet in the vernacular.Joel Mc (talk) 10:18, 20 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Semi-protected edit request on 4 September 2015
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You should change it because, part of the experiment doesn't have enough information. I got exclusive information from my Jewish parents. From morphine to death, they didnt use morphine, in fact they killed them.
123.211.206.82 (talk) 08:41, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Not sure what you want changed. Also, please note that your parents are not considered reliable sources unless they also happen to be noted experts in this area. Cannolis (talk) 09:01, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hello and thanks! But I don't get it: the discussion is about moving "The Holocaust" to "Holocaust", isn't it? That's what I mean. So why was it moved back again (if moved at all)???--Hubon (talk) 13:51, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In the context of this article, "Holocaust" is a proper noun. The article “the” is generally used with plural proper nouns, i.e. the Alps, however one exception is when it is used with a singular proper noun (name) of a historical event, thus the Holocaust.Joel Mc (talk) 14:00, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, so is that why the consensus of the linked discussion was not realized? I mean, they all supported the move to "Holocaust" - without the definite article...--Hubon (talk) 14:19, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't take a broad enough view of the origins of the Holocaust
The 'origins' section of this article, though detailed and straight forward, focuses too much on the eugenic motivations of the genocide and largely fails to mention major socio-political factors which were also integral to the reasoning of the major perpetrators, for instance the stab in the back myth and the concept of Jewish Bolshevism. Other genocide articles such as that for the Armenian and Rwandan genocides have 'background' sections which establish a time line of sorts of increasing tension and racism, often making reference to several specific events. A suggestion for how this could look in this article is 'antisemitism in Europe' (which may mention eugenics and the volkisch movement) then 'world war 1' (which could make reference to the notorious german military 'account on Jews') then 'stab in the back myth and German Revolution' (both important in the development of the 'jewish Bolshevism' canard) then 'rise of the nazi party' before continuing the article as it is.
These are simply suggestions, and I don't expect everyone or indeed anyone to take them up. However, I just think there should be some major restructuring of this section.
Regards Aardwolf A380 (talk) 23:11, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Jewish resistance section paraphrasing the views of a death camp commander
The section on Jewish resistance provides the views of SS officer and death camp commander Franz Stangl. The excerpt reads "Franz Stangl, who had commanded two death camps, was asked in a West German prison about his reaction to the Jewish victims. He said that only recently he had read a book about lemmings. It reminded him of Treblinka." Wouldn't it be more desirable for Wikipedia to have a more neutral and impartial viewpoint on the behaviour of the Jewish victims than the viewpoint of a death camp commander? I think this last section, with its inflammatory reference to "lemmings" (a reference, it would appear, to the false claim that lemmings commit mass suicide) could be removed from the section of quotations.OnBeyondZebrax • TALK02:19, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
How is the German for an obscure term like Trawniki of any use to anyone? The article is bloated enough as it is, let alone with pointless German translations like Trawnikimänner in it. And why is Hollande's opinion still in this article? His views should be on his own page, not cluttering up this one. --YeOldeGentleman (talk) 23:34, 19 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Not sure what you want changed. Also, please note that your parents are not considered reliable sources unless they also happen to be noted experts in this area. Cannolis (talk) 09:01, 4 September 2015 (UTC)