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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 113.210.177.40 (talk) at 02:27, 20 January 2017 (→Hacking incident that arose from this plane shootdown incident). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

JIT Investigation press conference

The JIT has released some findings related to the crash, which I've added to the article. If you want to read a transcript the Dutch ministry has one here, or a video with English translation here. Summary: Buk fired from rebel territory (a 500x600m field 6km south of Snizhne). Buk transported to and from Russia before and after crash respectively. Stickee (talk) 12:42, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Secondary source [1].Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:26, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I've only used secondary sources in the article itself. Stickee (talk) 13:41, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So, this is now an official conclusion by international investigation, basically a matter of fact. Perhaps this should be placed more prominently in the beginning of intro. So, according to rebels, "We never had such air defence systems, nor the people who could operate them". Yes, they never had. According to the investigation, the Buk was operated by Russian military team if I understand correctly. My very best wishes (talk) 14:45, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. I would strongly support greater prominence. Regarding direct personal responsibility, as the BBC source says, the JIT "established the identities of about 100 people "linked to the crash or the transport of the Buk" missile, but they are yet to determine who could be held criminally responsible." Martinevans123 (talk) 14:59, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The actual Openbaar Ministerie films are also quite interesting as a reference because they provide quite a lot of technical details on how the investigation was actually performed. For example, that the specific missile model was identified by dismantling a number of authentic "Buk" missiles of different models and comparing the remains found in the wrecked plane. Cloud200 (talk) 15:13, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure there was a strong conclusion was that it was a Russian operated installation; the conclusion limited itself to stating it was a Russian (owned) installation that after firing the missile was moved back into Russia. It does not exclude (at this stage) that it may have been loaned to other operators during its stay inside Ukraine. Arnoutf (talk) 15:27, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Just another publication [2]... Yes, you are probably right. One should probably look at the actual conclusions by the investigation. Were these conclusions made public, with all detail? My very best wishes (talk) 15:43, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It is fairly explicit in the NYT that the board stopped short of pinpointing the identity/nationality of the individuals actually operating the missile, other than that, it appears to wholly endorse Russian and seperatist responsibility for the shoot-down and cover-up. Pincrete (talk) 22:38, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A short summary of this info should be included in the lede.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:41, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think a radical re-write of the lead is in order, giving greater prominence to the two Dutch enquiries and pruning and 'time-stamping' early speculations, claims and counter-claims. Although largely chronological at present, the most important conclusions are somewhat 'buried' and timings are not always clear. Pincrete (talk) 22:36, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Fully agree. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:38, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like a good idea. - Ahunt (talk) 23:10, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I agree.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 00:06, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hey! I also agree.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:03, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've sandboxed the article, although I only intend to modify the lead, and have begun to (mentally) formulate a re-write, I'm unlikely to have much time for a few days to do this, but others are welcome to join in/comment. Pincrete (talk) 08:04, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I also agree, I think we should also rewrite the ridiculously bloated cause of crash section, as all speculations and fringe in that section can now be delegated to "speculations" rather then serious analysis. Arnoutf (talk) 17:58, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As well as being bloated, I think some sections lack either sequential or thematic coherence, probably as a result of 'updates' being inserted without regard for overall coherence. Now seems a good time to try to fix. Pincrete (talk) 19:06, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Cause of crash sub-section

Since all the investigation is trying to establish the 'cause of crash', this seems a very vaguely titled sub-section, but since I cannot work out specifically what it is about, I cannot make any suggestions. Pincrete (talk) 16:06, 6 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Reworking lead

William M. Connolley I have very reluctantly reverted your edit, while most of us agree that the lead needs a major rewrite (see above) for reasons similar to your own, I don't think we can state Dutch findings as objective fact. We can, and do intend to give DSB and JIT greater prominence and to prune/summarise much earlier speculation, and drop the current, mainly chrnological structure, but it still has to be phrased as 'JIT concluded', 'DSB found' etc.

I intended to start work on a rewrite today and have 'sandboxed' the article, however RL intruded, you are very welcome to join in, but I think we need to exercise great care doing this. Pincrete (talk) 16:30, 2 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. At some point (and I think now is that point) we can switch over from "X says that this happened" to "this happened"; once there is no longer reasonable doubt. And there is no longer reasonable doubt William M. Connolley (talk) 20:40, 2 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly disagree, our job is to present the available info in a balanced, accurate form, not reach conclusions about the balance of evidence. However, even if you were right about now being the time to make such a change, the recent JIT conference intentionally avoided saying who fired the missile, not their identity, group or even nationality, as did the DSB. Your edit said as a fact that it was fired by pro-Russian insurgents, JIT did not say that or even imply it. Clearly it is one of JIT's lines of inquiry, and they may say more at a later date, but at the moment, who fired is an assertion from many Western sources and a claimed probability from others. This is one of many reasons why we need to be very careful about our rephrasing. Pincrete (talk) 21:47, 2 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm in agreement with Pincrete. Per WP:NOT#JOURNALISM, it's not up to editors to read between the lines. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:04, 2 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with edit by William, except that instead of "The plane was shot down by pro-Russian insurgents", it should tell "The plane was shot down by pro-Russian insurgents or by Russian military team" because that is what most recent official and older findings imply.
P.S. Note also that telling "mistakenly" in old/current version is wrong because no one knows the actual intentions. According to one version, the intention was to shot down a Russian passenger plane that "accidently" changed its route during this day (as a causus belli for large-scale invasion into the Ukrainian territory), but the plan was changed and they decided to hit a Ukrainian military plane and mistakenly hit Flight 17. One of the reason for such version is that transporting the single Buk to Donbass was not needed to hit Ukrainian military planes: a lot of them were shot down using other weaponry that rebels already had. (The Buk is only needed to hit high-flying objects like passenger planes, but Ukrainian military planes flew on a much lower altitude). My very best wishes (talk) 23:30, 2 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Quite right about the use of 'mistakenly'. I'd missed that in the reading. No second-guessing intent or lack of intent. The NPOV reading is simply shot down without any of the speculation. Speculative scenarios are editorialising/OR as to who was responsible and OR motives. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:12, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ditto, right about 'mistakenly'. We cannot say that DSB or JIT 'pointed the finger' at Russian or Russian backed rebels since they did not say it (if I remember correctly), and we cannot turn an inference into a fact. I believe JIT intimated that it had evidence which would 'narrow the field', which they would offer to any criminal/further investigations. Balancing readability with scrupulous accuracy needs great care IMO. Pincrete (talk) 08:52, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
At this stage, what we have is tabloid and headline soundbytes implying that the the culprits have been nailed, but the actual statements by the official bodies do not. Nothing changes until the JIT announces its findings. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:32, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Detail, since it is likely to go from the lead anyhow, but 'mistakenly' actually comes from the US source and so long as that is clear, it isn't editorialising but part of US claim. JIT may not announce for some time, since they have previously indicated a wish to present in a judicial situation. Pincrete (talk) 08:24, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, yes. You're correct. Thinking on it, it may also come across as POV without the 'mistakenly' as it could also imply that it was intentional. Given that you're reworking the article, I'll leave it to your discretion as to whether it should be restored. My gut feeling is that, at this point in time, it should. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:18, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Iryna, I'm not sure that 'mistakenly' matters either way in the lead if claimed deeds, rather than intenions, are being reported, but I'll reinsert it in my rework. The sandboxed rewrite is at a stage that your (or other editors') comments/thoughts would be welcome. Pincrete (talk) 22:38, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Pincrete: Cheers. I'll read through it ASAP. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:43, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Reworked lead

The lead rewrite is ready for inspection, and if there are no major complaints will be BRD'd into place in the next few days (hopefully more 'D' than 'R'). At present it is 7 shortish paragraphs, but pairs could easily be merged to make 5 or 4. I've left it in that longer form for convenience of discussion. I've actually included more topic areas, but tried to put related info into less detailed paras thematically. If in doubt, I left topics in. I believe I have checked my refs, but any double checking would be welcome.

I'm uncertain whether 'Bellingcat' deserves to be in the lead at all, it is more notable as an example of the role that analysis of social media has played in the investigation than for any specific contribution from them. Apart from the launcher number, all their claims I believe, have also been made by others. Pincrete (talk) 15:26, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Pincrete for the work. A few comments (below) to prevent to many changes
1)The first two opening lines "Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17/MAS17)[a] was a scheduled international passenger flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur that was shot down on 17 July 2014, killing all 283 passengers and 15 crew on board.[2] Contact with the Boeing 777-200ER airliner was lost about 50 km (31 mi) from the Ukraine–Russia border, and it crashed near Torez in Donetsk Oblast, Ukraine, 40 km (25 mi) from the border." are rather complex.
Perhaps splitting them up would improve readability (albeit making it all somewhat staccato)? e.g. "Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17/MAS17)[a] was a scheduled international passenger flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. It was shot down on 17 July 2014, killing all 283 passengers and 15 crew on board.[2] Contact with the Boeing 777-200ER airliner was lost about 50 km (31 mi) from the Ukraine–Russia border. The plane crashed near Torez in Donetsk Oblast, Ukraine, 40 km (25 mi) from the border."
2) Second section. The phrase "missile type responsible and found" is a bit odd. The missile type was not responsible (as that implies intention) and the JIT concluded rather than "found". I would suggest "missile type causing the crash and concluded"
3) Third section. I find this somewhat problematic. The first line "The DSB and JIT findings confirmed earlier claims by the Ukrainian government and Western intelligence sources as to the missile type and launch area." implies the intelligence services are right (which is the case here) but would suggest the next (so far unproven) claim is also right (implied synthesis-> original research). I would suggest moving this line to the end of the previous section (where it closes the DSB-JIT findings) and rephrase the 3rd section as
4)Consider further reducing sections 3,4,5,6 (initial responses and Bellingcat) (although I can imagine you think that would go too far in this first step). Perhaps something like this might work though
In 2014, Ukraine and US intelligence alleged that Russia had supplied the missile to pro-Russian insurgents, who had mistakenly shot down the aircraft.[9][10][11][12] German intelligence sources in 2014 reported that they believe insurgents had stolen the missile from the Ukrainian military.[13][14][15] Russian government sources initially claimed that the aircraft was being tailed by a Ukrainian military jet at the time of the shootdown[10] and that Ukraine was responsible since the crash had happened in Ukrainian airspace.[16] Several other theories about the crash, denying Russian involvement, have since appeared in Russian media.[17] Immediately after the crash, a post appeared on the VKontakte social media profile attributed to Russian Colonel Igor Girkin, a leader of the Donbass separatist militia, claiming responsibility for shooting down an AN-26 near Torez. Later the same day, the separatists denied involvement, and the post was removed.[18][19][20]. Bwetween 2014 and 2016, UK based investigative collective Bellingcat, based onon examination of photos in social media and other open-source information, made a series of allegations, which arrives at the conclusion that the launcher used to shoot down the aircraft was unit 332 of the Russian 53rd Anti-Aircraft Rocket Brigade based in Kursk .[24][25][26][27] [28]"
Last section is fine (no comments). Sorry for not pitching in earlier. Feel free to add it boldly as your version is imho a vast improvement over the current. Again, thanks for the hard work. Cheers Arnoutf (talk) 17:06, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Most of these suggestions seem excellent, better flow without loss of significant info or neutrality. I would incorporate straightaway, were it not for RL and the need to eat. Thanks. Pincrete (talk) 18:07, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Arnoutf, 1) I haven't done, since para 1 is largely 'as present', but I'm happy for you or others to do if you/they think it an improvement.
2) is done
3) is not done YET, I was aware of the danger you mention of implying that if some earlier claims are true, others probably also are. For the time being I think I prefer 'topic' paras, but am happy for the change to be made if thought necessary. The advantage of more short paras (as a temp measure?) is that it makes our discussion easier as I've tried to make each para a distinct 'topic area'.
4) is partially done. Pincrete (talk) 17:04, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've just fixed the ref error. I've made a couple of minor changes/fixes, and I might do some more major shifting soon. Just to clarify with regards to this edit, Girkin was *the* leader of the Donbass People's Militia. There's multiple separatist militias (others include the Luhansk People's Militia), but of the Donbass militia specifically, he was the very top dog (which is even stated on his Wikipedia article). Stickee (talk) 11:04, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I was uncertain about Gurkin, prior lead said 'leader of the separatists', which implied sole political leader.Pincrete (talk) 11:35, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah but it gets a bit wishy-washy, because at times the DPR had no political leader, making him the de facto leader ("The Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) defense minister and de facto leader, Igor Strelkov,..." [3]). But whatever, either way works. Stickee (talk) 11:44, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, (about Gurkin), my only point was that we needed to make it clear that he was 'militia/military leader', rather than any other role, ie he was the guy in charge of the troops on the ground. Pincrete (talk) 14:07, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

100 names/put before a court

I've 'beefed up' the JIT text slightly. I was anxious when reworking the lead to not imply that JIT, didn't have suspects and/or that the investigation was closed as far they were concerned. I agree that my original text was a bit flaccid, their announcements were controlled but robust. I think that both the '100 names' and their 'the evidence must stand before a court' are significant. But correct me if I'm wrong (has been known!). ...... btw JIT said the 100 names were connected 'one way or another' to the 'transporting', they don't say 'transporting or use/crash site/crash'. Pincrete (talk) 13:11, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Should this image be added to the article?

To the right is a satellite image provided by the RF purporting to be images of Buks. I'm of the opinion it shouldn't be added to the article. Right now, the images relating to the cause of crash in the article only contain facts concluded by the DSB/JIT or their evidence. Relevant diff: [4] Stickee (talk) 23:16, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Text from the article: "On 21 July 2014, the Russian Ministry of Defence held a press conference and said that while the Boeing 777 was crashing, a Ukrainian Su-25 ground-attack aircraft approached to within 3 to 5 kilometres (1.9 to 3.1 mi) of the Malaysian airliner. The MoD also stated that satellite photographs showed that the Ukrainian army moved a Buk SAM battery to the area close to the territory controlled by the rebels on the morning of 17 July, hours before the crash."
What are you talking about? It is highly relevant image presented at the press-conference which is described in the article (i made text bold for you if you do not see it [5]). The image illustrates their statement that is in the article. This text citation exists in the article more than a year that means that there is a consensus about text and wording in the article. This image does not bring anything not related to this section and fully agrees with the section of the article. Moreover this image is very well sourced that proves its significance. Your edit should be immediately cancelled until clear argumentation.--Александр Мотин (talk) 07:49, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The image supported a claim, and so long as text and caption are phrased neutrally, which they appear to be at present, I see no objection to inclusion. Image quality is low, but that is a wholly different argument.
The 'cause of crash' sub-section title is both vague and inaccurate, the section is mainly about early speculation and competing claims, rather than official or accepted findings. Pincrete (talk) 08:18, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Tend to agree with Pincrete, but care must be taken to ensure it's not seen as a part of, or outcome from, the official investigation. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:47, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I just realised these were the images the press described as fake [6]. Probably even less likely that they should be in the article. But in the meantime, I've given a description according to what the RS's say about it (more refs there). Stickee (talk) 10:05, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, really? This is actually different argument and by the way nobody stops you to point that in the article. But that is very weak reason to delete this image because it was presented as official evidence days after the crash.--Александр Мотин (talk) 10:59, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
... "presented as official evidence days after the crash" - yes, presented officilaly by the Russian government. This does not equate to "used as evidence in the offical enquiry", does it? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:13, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You want the entire article to be the press release by JIT or DSB? --Александр Мотин (talk) 11:24, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't actually recall suggesting that. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:31, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I do not understand why you are arguing with me, while this sourced piece of text in bold above was written by completely different authors over a year ago. You should address all your comments about wording of that piece of text to them but not me. This image just illustrates that piece of text with neutrally phrased caption.--Александр Мотин (talk) 12:19, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Then we can both agree that the words "presented as official evidence days after the crash" should not appear in the article, just as now. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:25, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I will be satisfied with any consensus and neutral wording.--Александр Мотин (talk) 12:33, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Likewise. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:59, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I guess it's no surprise to many that RT should be publishing fake inages. But in my view this actually argues for their inclusion here, with a suitable supporting description. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:12, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it adds anything much to our understanding. I suppose we can use it as long as it is made clear that most RS regard it as a fake. --John (talk) 10:31, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think this image is a bit of a distraction, what is more serious IMO is that in the attached text, two distict theories (Ukrainian air-to-air and Ukrainian operated SAM) and their respective rebuttals are rather 'merged', as though they were one thing. Pincrete (talk) 15:00, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Producer of Buk missile system made their own experiments to prove the theory where the missile was launched from. Their natural experiment (they exploded Buk missille by the Il-86 fuselage on the ground) and subsequent or preceding supercomputer calculation showed them the area where this missile could be launched from (Zaroshchenske). [7][8] As far as I understand they have exclusive competence to claim anything about the missile because they are the only producer of this missile system. That is why this image is important because it represents several statements of different russian instutions about the same possible missile launch site. It would be silly for them to claim seriously after that experiment that the aircraft could be downed by jet fighter. --Александр Мотин (talk) 17:30, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Check the archives. I'm sure this was discussed already. Multiple times.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:24, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And frankly, the fact that people are still trying to push these wacky theories two years after they've been thoroughly discredited is ridiculous.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:37, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So long as the treatment of these theories is neutral, and any RS'd rebuttals included, I don't see a problem. We include wackier theories (the plane was full of corpses?). Pincrete (talk) 19:18, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. Either not include it, or include it but describe it as it is described in sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:28, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
And in this case the sources explicitly say the images were faked:
"Forensic report: Russia faked MH17 satellite photos"
"Russian Images of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Were Altered"
"fake images", "false satellite image"
Then so do we.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:33, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the image was fake. That is what sources tell. There are no any questions or real doubts about it, especially after recent conclusions by the international investigation team. I moved this to a different section. Perhaps we need a separate subsection entitled "Conspiracy theories" (no objections from me), but it also looks good as a part of the coverage by Russian press (e.g. by "Novaya gazeta"). My very best wishes (talk) 20:41, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That might be a better solution. Although it is a key part of the "narrative" of establishing the true cause? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:05, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I do not think this story has anything to do with establishing the true cause. To the contrary, this is all about the disinformation campaign to hide the true cause. The disinformation campaign was notable and therefore must be included on the page, but I think it should be explicitly described (and possibly entitled in a separate section) as such. Well, this is basically another Korean Air Lines Flight 007 story, except that everything was denied by the perpetrator, very much as in Crimea, Donbass, and Syria. My very best wishes (talk) 22:28, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Very little of 'cause of crash' is actually about cause of crash. That is mainly in DSB and JIT, cause of crash is mainly about earlier speculation (much of which has been endorsed by DSB?JIT, nonetheless it was speculation when made). I agree with Martinevans, that this is part of the narrative, it may itself have been intentional disinformation, nonetheless the attempt (and the boomerang?) are part of the story of how what is known became known. Pincrete (talk) 08:35, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If someone wants to point that the image is fake better to do it by neutral phrasing. But what was reason to delete the text about press conference of the Russian MoD (21 July 2014)[9]? There is a consensus about it for more than a year that is why there should be discussion about it before deletion.--Александр Мотин (talk) 14:55, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Russian MoD is not media outlet.--Александр Мотин (talk) 19:46, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
By the way there is no competent international institution so far that made expertise of the satellite image. Everyone can say that it is fake, but only competent international institution can make any unbiased competent conclusions. And Russia proposed ICAO to lead the investigation but this idea was refused by other concerned parties (why? ). ICAO could expertise this image within investigation, for example, because they have competent experts but not journalists and bloggers :)--Александр Мотин (talk) 15:08, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
But we had "consensus for more than a year" over the "text about press conference of the Russian MoD" without this image to illustrate it? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:28, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
And what WP rule prohibits to illustrate consensus text? It is just illustration to the consensus text but not separate claim/statement. And its caption is neutrally phrased by the way.--Александр Мотин (talk) 15:31, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think it might depend on what the image is alleged to show and on the relative WEIGHT which the addition of such an illustration might add. Do you really think that every factual item in the text of an article should be illustrated with a separate image? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:49, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Then we should talk about all images in the article not only about the one in this context (WP:WEIGHT). --Александр Мотин (talk) 16:13, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy with all the other images. What do other editors think? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:18, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As I said before this article shoul not be a kind of DSB/JIT press release with their images only. This image is well sourced that means it has high notability and does not illustrate irrelevant facts - it illustrates a large piece of the consensus text and now the official version of Russia that missile was launched from that area which is on the image after series of experiments of Almaz-Antey [10] which the only producer of that missile system. If you need sources for that let me know.--Александр Мотин (talk) 16:13, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't feel strongly either way about the image, it isn't very informative and no reader could judge either what it purportedly shows, nor its authenticity but our decision shouldn't be based on its authenticity, rather on whether it aids understanding of what the claims were, which I would say was a little, but not much. Pincrete (talk) 16:43, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
But do not forget the fact that this image is very offensive (not sure that this word correct to describe meaning of "резонансный") to some authors here because a lot of authors here easily provided tons of sources describing this image as fake. That means that this image does not lack notability and shows us that this image is quite recognizable by readers and authors.--Александр Мотин (talk) 16:54, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

nb multiple edit conflict Александр Мотин, I sympathise with you to this extent, 1) I agree that this is not 'Russ media coverage' 2) I think the present caption text is 'using a sledgehammer to crack a nut' and thus doing a disservice to the reader who wishes to read what the Russian claim was, then the rebuttals and then make up their own minds which is more credible.

I have said elsewhere on this page, several times, that I have no idea what the 'cause of crash' section is supposed to be about, it certainly doesn't identify what official bodies have said the cause was, but is much more the ping-pong of two years of claim and counter-claim amounting to a fairly incoherent narrative. I'm not sure how that could be improved, one possibility is a distinct 'Russian theories' section and a separate 'Western theories' section. Pincrete (talk) 16:27, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Western - non Western split is far from trivial. It would be very far fetching to label Malaysia, Ukraine and Indonesia as Western. They were involved as countries in whose air space this happened, and who suffered casualties (like UK, Netherlands, Australia etc). For the non involved countries we might split remaining theories in Russian and US response - as those seem the only important responses of non-involved countries. Arnoutf (talk) 21:01, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. Likewise there's a ton of crappy non-reliable sources in the West which repeat the same conspiracy theories.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:44, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

" It is evidence by Russian instituion. Fake or not it is not the reason to move it her" - ummm, if it is fake, then it is not evidence.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:45, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please read above my comment regarding "fakeness" of the image. This image is considered as fake just by some media outlets. But not all. Journalists are not military experts of the international institution who are authorized to carry out an assessment of this evidence. Journalists conclusions about fakeness of the satellite image are just value judgments. Putin`s missile"[11] is a good example of what I mean to say here. This cover of The Sun was published just a few hours after the MH17 crash without any investigation and reliable evidence.--Александр Мотин (talk) 21:08, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's wholly inappropriate to compare those sources currently cited as saying the image was fake with The Sun. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:50, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Right, that was an example that reliable source and its journalists made its own comprehensive investigation within few hours. That is why do not poke me (not you personally) with your "own reliable sources". Wording should be neutrally phrased according to WP:WEIGHT and take into account all acceptable sources.--Александр Мотин (talk) 21:53, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The version about Ukrainian Buks hitting the plane is fake not only because that was claimed by sources, but because that was established by the official international investigation team [12]. Including this as disinformation by the Russian ministry of defense and Antey is fine, but including it as a possible alternative version is not. Not after the conclusion by the JIT. My very best wishes (talk) 22:09, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • This satellite image does not say that Buks on the satellite image shot down the aircraft. It says that on the aircraft route there were some Buks able to shot down any aircraft within it range. As I said above this satellite image illustrates consensus piece of text in the article.--Александр Мотин (talk) 22:16, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's not about image. It is about disinformation version(s) by the Russian Ministry of Defence and manufacturers who fed their desa to journalists including Novaya Gazeta. My very best wishes (talk) 22:24, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So who says that those Buks on the satellite image shot down the aircraft? WHO? And why are you trying to do original research saying that it is disinformation? Some reliable sources say it is not disinformation. So as WP author you must be unbiased and rely on all acceptable sources and do not do any original research. --Александр Мотин (talk) 22:26, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Who said? That was (and apparently still is) Russian ministry of defense version ([13]). They tell it was launched from a different site under Ukrainian control. This version was now completely disproved by the official conclusion by the JIT. Given that JIT has established it was actually launched from the Buk under Russian and separatist control, this version is obviously wrong and the image is fake (exactly as was also claimed by many others long time ago) and probably belongs to a different section. My very best wishes (talk) 13:10, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I did not see and have never heard of any direct citations from Russian authorities which say that Buks on the sattelite image shot down MH17. If you heard or read about them please provide them right here. This satellite image just documented (according to their official data) dislocation of two Buks on the aircraft route a few hours before the crash. Check your sources and check primary source please [14]. They did not say that exactly those Buks shot down the aircraft.--Александр Мотин (talk) 13:47, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Do we use bold here? Either all of us or noone.Xx236 (talk) 06:17, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Did you read this? My very best wishes (talk) 13:21, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Do we use all reliable sources here? Either all of them or WP:NOR.--Александр Мотин (talk) 13:56, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's exactly what we do here. Do you have any reliable sources in mind? Because all I see is you misrepresenting reliable sources to pretend that they said something different than they actually said, and then turning around and complaining about those reliable sources. (Primary sources can't be used except for non-controversial stuff).Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:21, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Current wording [15] of the caption violates WP:NPOV because some reliable sources are being rejected in favor of another sources with another point of view. As I said above this satellite image and its caption does not claim that exactly those Buks on the image shot down the aircraft because there are no acceptable sources which say that so far. That is why this version of the caption fully complies with WP:NPOV.--Александр Мотин (talk) 15:04, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That is false. What are these "some reliable sources" which are being rejected? Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:46, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(and before you go there, RT is NOT considered a reliable source on Wikipedia for anything except non-controversial statements).Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:47, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Provide then the link to the discussion and consensus about RT as an inappropriate and nonreliable source. Then I will not use this source here anymore. Why is it still not blacklisted (WP:BLACKLIST)? --Александр Мотин (talk) 15:52, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Blacklisted" and "not reliable" are two different things. Blacklist is for sites which are nothing but spam. "Not reliable", per WP:RS, basically means "no reputation for fact checking and accuracy" (and a couple other conditions. You can go to WP:RSN, type in "RT Network" or similar and find previous discussions. You can also check the archives of this talk page above for discussion of basically the same issue.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:14, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Back to the original question, I do not think anyone objects to including this image. But it must have proper caption. BTW, this user is a regular (see here) and knows the rules (speaking about 3RR below). My very best wishes (talk) 17:45, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
On reflection, maybe it is better to remove this fake image from the article. What does it add? --John (talk) 19:01, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've no wish to perpetuate the edit warring over the image caption, but I've made a few alterations to the caption text. I hope the edit reasons are clear, however I wish to explain what I think is the most important. All assertions on this article are textually attributed, regardless of the stature of the source, including DSB, JIT, US Int or whoever. I believe that is correct and is done as a service to the reader who may judge for themself whether the source has authority in their eyes. I believe the same should be done for both Russian claims and those claiming 'fake'. We cannot/should not treat official Russian sources as though they are the flat earth society or a blogger in Cardiff, whom we can disregard. We cannot do this IMO, even if the weight of evidence is that nothing but lies is coming from them, because, regardless, their claims are a significant part of the narrative and both claim and source should be included and framed neutrally, followed of course by any significant rebuttals.

I have attributed the 'they were faked' claim to 'Several western sources', if a better wording can be found I'm happy. What I believe is doing a disservice to the reader, is simply presenting the 'faked' claim in WP voice, and/or removing the Russian sources that contradict that claim.Pincrete (talk) 23:53, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

'Several western sources' is terrible. First, this is so according to nearly all current RS (excluding claims by the perpetrator) and conclusion by the JIT (this is not just another source). Second, there is no such thing as "western", "eastern" or "northern" sources. There are good and bad sources. My very best wishes (talk) 01:03, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Furthermore, the "alterations" made in the edit were pretty much reverting back to Александр's version. Stickee (talk) 01:09, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the picture is either genuine or it's not. My problem with this version [16] is that "he said/she said" gives perfectly equal weight to both sides, which is like giving up and letting facts be negotiable. Further, I think that writing 'they said it's fake' isn't giving the most prevalent POV enough credit. Why does it appear to be faked? We may not have room to go into that--it's a caption in a bloated article--and if that's the case, then the picture should probably just go. Geogene (talk) 01:22, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I agree and I've removed it. I asked what it added to the article and have not seen a satisfactory response. It's a distraction and we are better off without it --John (talk) 06:02, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I know, and as far as the most authorative bodies claim, (DSB and JIT) the only almost entirely indisputed facts are that a Buk missile downed the aircraft and was probably fired from a particular field. JIT (who are the police in this manner) have declined to go public far beyond that, they would like a trial/tribunal. We may not like that, but it is the present 'truth'. Do editors here know something JIT doesn't, or has chosen not to say at present? Everything beyond that is in the realms of 'balance of evidence', which is something everybody is entitled to assess for themselves and very few readers are going to think that Russia and the rebels don't have a lot of difficult questions to answer. The opening word 'Faked', was removed by me, since it is simply not in the two refs at the end of that sentence and secondly because I do not believe we should ignore Russian sources, regardless of how we might feel about them. The accused always gets the right to 'have his say'.
However, I am also quite happy for both image and caption to be removed, or to raise an RfC. We don't grant any body on this article the unilateral power to decide 'truth', and when DSB and JIT are denied it, I fail to see why NYTimes (along with Daily Mail, Das Bild and one other) acquire the right to bypass the 'This person/group concluded' format. Pincrete (talk) 09:27, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@John, thanks. It adds little, and this argument + edit war was part of the reason I wanted to avoid it in the first place. 68 comments here on the talk page, and 40+ edits to the article. Stickee (talk) 12:10, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with above comments - Pincrete's version is really just Aleksandr's version, which means it misrepresents sources. I'm off two minds if the picture should stay or go, but if it stays it needs to have an accurate caption.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:50, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No strong opinion about inclusion/exclusion this image. I would suggest to actually include it somewhere (probably in a different section), but given the dispute, the removal is not unreasonable. My very best wishes (talk) 15:35, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think you should keep the image, which has had an outsized role at certain points in discussion of this event. Pincrete's comments are reasonable and it is certainly possible to write a neutral caption that neither endorses the images, nor simply declares they were "faked." -Darouet (talk) 02:08, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be inclined to keep it (but I'll be happy to defer to other's opinion on the keep/leave issue) but in a different section and crucially, with an accurate caption. Which means it really does need to say "faked" just like all the sources. That's neutral - following sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:13, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
At the risk of repeating myself, (about the sub-section, not the image), part of the reason we are at cross-purposes here is that the 'cause of crash' sub-section isn't mainly about the cause of crash. The most authorative, established facts/near facts/claims are in the DSB and JIT sections. At present, the cause of crash sub-section is mainly the chronology of earlier claims, with some counter-claims, but the sub-section never actually identifies a cause.
Were this section actually about the cause of crash it would be worded something like "the aircraft was downed by a named weapon, striking it, causing the aircraft to blah blah." ..... Continuing with whatever was known about who fired, who supplied, from where, why, and technical info concerning both the crash and investigation. Most of the present section would go later or into a new 'earlier speculation', or somesuch.
Some here have suggested limiting this section to 'vindicated claims'. I think that a very dangerous strategy. US Int (and others) appear to be vindicated as to missile type and launch site, but we cannot say that about their claims of who supplied and fired. Bellingcat and many others also appear to be at least partially vindicated, while Russia appears to have had none of its claims vindicated by DSB or JIT. However, except where DSB or JIT have explicitly endorsed a claim, I think it dangerous waters for us to decide who has so far been proven right or wrong. To the best of my knowledge DSB has explicitly excluded one possibility (air-to-air attack), but has not endorsed any claims.
I don't know how best to proceed, but I think we are going to continue to be at cross-purposes about what should be in/out until we are clear about the subject of the sub-section and its title and the apt place(s) for moved stuff, ie overall structure.Pincrete (talk) 15:25, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My impression from reading newspaper accounts of the image analyses is that newspapers report the analyses, attributing the analyses to the analysts, and then endorse them to varying degrees. As I mentioned at WP:NPOVN, Der Spiegel reports the findings but does not necessarily endorse them. There is nothing controversial about us also reporting those findings, without going onto an editorial limb and declaring that we know the WP:TRUTH. -Darouet (talk) 18:40, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

After a week only now I can continue editing and I am sure my blocking [17] was a careless attempt to eliminate me from discussion here because after my blocking in several hours some group of editors here who are concerned about "Putins trolls and russian propaganda" [18] made their most double-quick "consensus" [19][20]. This is ridiculous.--Александр Мотин (talk) 18:06, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And how about Spiegel? It says those images by Russian MoD are not faked - "Expert Criticizes Allegations of Russian MH17 Manipulation" (Der Spiegel) [21]. I mean that if you keep caption like "Faked image...bla-bla-bla" it violates WP:NPOV because some sources say it is not faked. That is why "Faked image" is very non-neutral phrasing.--Александр Мотин (talk) 18:06, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Александр Мотин, you were banned for edit warring. I was one of the few editors here to oppose the 'faked' wording. I did so because I thought the account incomplete. A de facto consensus has emerged here thst the image probably isn't worth the bother of finding a suitable caption. I urge you if you disgree to suggest suitable wording here on talk or to open an RfC about the image and the caption. Characterising the motives or actions of other editors isn't helpful to you. Pincrete (talk) 20:29, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • According to Pincrete above this caption was really neutral: Satellite image presented by the Russian Defence Ministry at a press briefing about the MH17 crash. Allegedly taken a few hours before the crash, on the aircraft route, two SAM "Buk-M1" vehicles are marked as well as an armoured vehicle in the area of Zaroshchenske village. Several sources described the image as 'faked'. And now we have Der Spiegel as RS which says this image is not fake [22]. Any objections?--Александр Мотин (talk) 10:18, 29 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Of course there's objections. This talk page section is full of objections. I think dropping the stick may be relevant here. Stickee (talk) 14:11, 29 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I agree there are objections and my own opinion is that the image adds little to anyone's understanding. The proper place to put both sides of the case is in the text, not the caption. For that reason, if used, I suggest a 'minimalist' caption eg Image presented by the Russian Defence Ministry. Some sources claimed the image had been digitally altered. - ie read the text if you want the full story!Pincrete (talk) 10:58, 31 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If there are no objections for 2 weeks to your phrasing of the caption I added yours.--Александр Мотин (talk) 13:00, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Александр Мотин, no you didn't, you added a modified version of my suggestion, and then reinserted the Russian description. The whole point of my suggestion was to point people toward the text, rather than get into claims in the caption. I have restored my version minus 'some'. If that meets with other editor's approval, so be it, if it doesn't I don't think the time spent on this image is/has been worth any benefit it might have. Pincrete (talk) 13:24, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The current version by User:Pincrete is preferred as it is less POV. - Ahunt (talk) 16:26, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:17, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing's changed, there's still no consensus for adding in the first place. As noted many times by people here, it adds little to the article. Stickee (talk) 22:22, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So these satellite images were reviewed by lots of outlets and you say it adds nothing to the article? It is super weird :) --Александр Мотин (talk) 18:33, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You think that "lots of outlets" = "encyclopdeic content"? It does add something, it adds unwanted bias. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:12, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If there is Ukranian version (external audio template with very detailed description) in the article why you say then Russian satellite image adds unwanted bias? This article is about the official version and Ukranian version only?--Александр Мотин (talk) 20:32, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Bellingcat is not a reliable source

I know that you ban people here, so i want to come to an agreement first. What should i need to do to so we'll come to an agreement that Bellingcat is not a reliable source and it should be deleted from this article? I understand why you don't like russian sources (however, why press-conferences of an alledged producer of a missile Almaz-Antey are barely mentioned is beyond my understanding, for example), but come on, there should be some balance here, let's delete at least the most ridiculous western sources too in that case. As (hopefully) everyone knows, Bellingcat just flat out doesn't approve comments to their articles that they don't like (yep, my comments too so i'm telling it from my own experience as well as multiple reports on the internet). And multiple people reported that they don't answer to emails either. So they're vehemently against any peer reviews. And Bellingcat does "original research" (or how you call it here?) of obvious fakes without any checking of facts - for example, one of the recent ones https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2016/09/22/russian-bomb-remains-recovered-syrian-red-crescent-aid-convoy-attack/ - that's damage from a grenade at most (some cardboard boxes are not damaged, no damage on walls, not even scratches). OFAB 250-270 bomb has 92-94 kg of TNT and it should blow everything that we see on that picture to pieces, including walls and ceiling. For example, 1000 square foot of the roof should be blown up by a medium bomb that exploded within a building [23] and a video of an OFAB 500 explosion (MpUklMePMTQ on youtube, wiki doesn't let a direct link) - bits get blown up to more than 10 stories high, and sparks fly to 5 stories high (compared to a building behind an explosion). And on that Bellingcat photo we see some undamaged cardboard boxes without burn makrs and completely undamaged plastering on walls and ceiling. So here, i'm a better "expert" than Bellingcat because i can see obvious fakes. I don't want to waste more of my time if it's completely impossible to come to an agreement that Bellingcat is not a reliable source that posts fakes and flat out ignores peer reviews. Is it possible at all, and what can i do so to prove it, or it's just flat out impossible? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ellestar (talk • contribs) 07:38, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Bellingcat is a perfectly reasonable source for Bellingcat's claims, so long as they are attributed and not given undue weight, I don't see the problem. Are there specific instances where you think this is not the case? Pincrete (talk) 09:09, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources
Given that Bellingcat is a source that is known not to do fact-checking and isn't accurate at all (one of the examples above in my previous post), and while theoretically it's third-party, in practice all it's articles related to Russia are strictly anti-Russian. So it can't be considered third-party for articles related to Russia, as Bellingcat obviously shows it's side by their own single-sided articles. Maybe there are some Bellingcat articles that actually argue things in favor of Russia? I'm unaware of it :/ So i'm not sure how it can be considered a reliable source (especially about something concerning Russia), and what it forgot on Wikipedia.
However, Bellingcat got it's own paragraph at the very start of the article, before contents, as if it's one of the most important and reliable sources of information.
Other examples: [24]
"Photograph from Paris Match of the Buk missile launcher in Donetsk, Ukraine, July 17, 2014" seems fake to me, shadow outlined by red is wrong (my screenshot from a new video by Joint Investigation Team, edited with windows paint to show, it's claimed that a photo is from that video). The problem here is that part of the ramp is obviously lit by sunrays, but there is no shadow from that part of a ramp. [25]
Again, this one "Buk on 17 July 2014 in the separatist territory - soot deposits..." https://www.bellingcat.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/The-lost-digit-BUK-3x2_EN_final-1.pdf
They see some "stains" there, i see that even wheels are wrong (that's their picture with so called improved quality, and my editing by red marker in Windows Paint) http://i64.tinypic.com/vq5l5s.jpg And i can't see a thing on original video anyway, it's too low-quality (that is, "Buk" part is low-quality, trailer is magically high-quality).
But that's an obvious wrongness. Less obvious one is that Bellingcat photos related to MH17 and Buk usually have very low quality. Even smartphones have higher quality cameras than that. So it's impossible to prove that some photo is a fake because there is nothing to look at. Yet, Bellingcat consistently uses such low-quality stuff as a "proof". So, there is no internal quality checking (at best) or intentional scam (at worst). Here people photoshop such pictures with more Buks, Armatas and ICBMs without any problems, just to show how to make that Bellingcat's "proof" [26] Ellestar (talk) 11:35, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You are asking the wrong questions. Did Bellingcat make these claims? Were these claims widely 'quoted' in RS, such that they have significance simply because they were reported? These are the only questions which concern us. We cannot possibly sit here deciding whether we personally think claims or images are 'true'. If any reliable authority questions specific B'cat claims, we will also report that. Many of the claims on this page (those from various intelligence agencies for example), are from sources who are not wholly 'reliable', in the sense of being ordinarily and reliably honest and open, that is why such claims and those of Bcat are 'attributed'. They made a claim, it was widely reported, we record that, without comment as to whether it was true or not. Pincrete (talk) 18:33, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I would generally avoid quoting Bellingcat directly, unless it was quoted by other, secondary RS. That's why we need secondary sources. It is their judgement if certain primary sources, such as Bellingcat deserved to be mentioned. This is not our call. We simply tell what secondary RS tell. My very best wishes (talk) 19:29, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think that's the longstanding agreement: to only use Bellingcat when reliable sources do. Geogene (talk) 20:07, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My very best wishes, Geogene firstly, a technical point, the sources for Bellingcat claims in the lead are actually Bellingcat itself (I simply re-used the pre-exisying sources), though I believe all their claims are reported in secondary sources.
Secondly, I wonder whether Bellingcat deserves to be in the lead at all. The approach I took was to summarise everything that was already there plus add anything that I thought was missing, ie I removed NO topics. Do Bellingcat actually warrant being in the lead? Their involvement is 'interesting' but probably not significant, nor the subject of much coverage. Thoughts anyone? Pincrete (talk) 00:15, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I would say that materials related to Bellingcat provides some important details and therefore should remain in the lede until JIT releases identities of people who they believe are responsible for this and other information. When they release everything, this should be removed from lede, but not earlier. My very best wishes (talk) 03:56, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I can see both arguments but took this opportunity to put the question 'onto the table'.Pincrete (talk) 12:46, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Almaz Antey presentation on YouTube

Is this YouTube video, which lasts 1:31:15, an appropriate addition at External links? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:06, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sure it is. It is by Almaz-Antey (producer of Buk missile system) regarding MH17 downing. Or you want to say again "it adds nothing to the article"? :)--Александр Мотин (talk) 20:35, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Did I say that already? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:42, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Why then this link was deleted from the article "The talk page indicates that there is no consensus to include these"? It seems you are big boss here to find consensus with.--Александр Мотин (talk) 20:47, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ah yes, a big boss. Flattered, I'm sure. But why not ask the editor who removed it? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:50, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hardly. For one, the simultaneous translation is terrible so I could not view the whole thing. But the BUK-maker is hardly NPOV (and I suspect they are one Russian entity not pushing the SU-25 explanation). Maybe a mention of a secondary source referring to this presentation, if one exists. Lklundin (talk) 21:51, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Lklundin. Agreed, not worthy of addition. Although I see there is already some mention of Almaz in the article as it is. Stickee (talk) 21:59, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As per WP:ELBURDEN "Disputed links should normally be excluded by default unless and until there is a consensus to include them." - Ahunt (talk) 22:07, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Seems largely like a self published primary source. For that reason alone it should be treated with utmost care. Arnoutf (talk) 18:50, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sections of International code.

Under several sections of international code, it is illicit/illegal, to fly a civilian passenger aircraft into a hostile zone known to have combat readiness. This is an airtower, flight directive fault.

Did anyone every mention this, or is this another case of willfull ignorance by all and any seeking a political excuse? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.73.101.224 (talk) 21:41, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Which source mentioned this with regard to Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 ? MPS1992 (talk) 21:47, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The selection of flight route was examined by the DSB in their final report. A summary of their findings is in the article (section "Final report"). Stickee (talk) 23:15, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Immediately after the crash, a post appeared on the VKontakte social media profile attributed to Russian Colonel Igor Girkin

I would like to add a peculiar detail regarding the "social media profile attributed to Russian Colonel Igor Girkin", which was used as the main argument toward his affiliation.

http://www.segodnia.ru/news/140976

The post dates back to 10.06.2014 and it says "У командующего ополчением ДНР Игоря Стрелкова нет аккаунтов в социальных сетях. Об этом "Ридусу" сообщили в его штабе. "На странице "ВКонтакте" публикуются ежедневные сводки от Стрелкова, которые публикует не он лично. Никакого присутствия Стрелкова в соцсетях нет. Все аккаунты являются "фейковыми", - сказал представитель штаба."

Google translate Team militia DNR Igor Strelkov no accounts in social networks. This "Reedus" reported in its headquarters. "On the page" VKontakte "are published daily bulletins of the shooting, which he personally publishes not No Strelkova presence in social networks is not all accounts are .." create fake "- said the representative Staff.

Therefore, Strelkov took off the responsibility for holding that Vk profile a month prior the tragedy.

Cheers! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.237.22.4 (talk) 18:47, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hacking incident that arose from this plane shootdown incident

User:Rentzepopoulos User:Martinevans123 User:Ahunt Yesterday I found these articles that reported a hacking incident that arose from this airliner shootdown:

I reached a basic consensus with User:Martinevans123 to add some skeptical tones into the edit since there's few sources. However, after both edit and my chat with Martinevans was removed altogether by User:Ahunt, a new question popped up. Is it relevant to include this edit as a footnote and put some skeptical tones into it per my consensus with Martinevans?

The only problem here is we found the event way too late.

This is a borderline case since the notability and even relevancy of this cybersecurity event is up for debate. IMO adding skeptical tone into the edit is more better than removing it altogether, at least you can avoid WP:UNDUE concerns. 60.54.37.77 (talk) 00:01, 20 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have an idea to add the tone into the edit:
On early 2016 both news outlets VICE Motherboard and news.com.au reported that a teenage hacker calling himself "Cyber Anakin" has hacked into several Russian websites in attempt to "avenge" this incident.

This is 60.54.37.77 using a different IP since I'm using school PC right now. 113.210.177.40 (talk) 02:27, 20 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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