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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Mat0018 (talk | contribs) at 19:28, 22 May 2018 (→The Warsaw ghetto uprising: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Good articleHome Army has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 14, 2006Peer reviewReviewed
June 20, 2006Good article nomineeListed
December 27, 2006WikiProject peer reviewReviewed
March 19, 2008Good article reassessmentKept
Current status: Good article

Main goal

The main goal of the AK was the final uprising (Operation Tempest), ie. training of future officers and soldiers, collecting arms. Real resistance caused cruel German vengeance, eg. 100 Polish civilians killed for one German, so the AK preferred to act ouside pre-war Poland or in the East, where ethnic Poles consisted a minority.Xx236 (talk) 10:05, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Post-war paragraph is almost so long as the WWII one, it's biased.Xx236 (talk) 10:07, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One file isn't available.Xx236 (talk) 10:09, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Operation Vistula

Operation Vistula was carried out by the communist forces of UB, KBW and LWP, not Armia Krajowa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.75.112.142 (talk) 20:04, 23 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Recent changes

I've already replied to this on my talk page, but I am resposting here, since this is where the discussion should take place:

In regard to this edit [1]:

The source, Timothy Snyder, specifically mentions Saugumas (Lithuanian police) rather than Lithuanian Defense Force, so we go with what the source says. The second source also references Saugumas. It may very well be true that AK fought against LDF as well (in fact, I'm pretty sure they did), but we need another source for that.

Likewise, the sources given talk about "collaborators", not "civilians". The one exception is of course the Dubinki massacre, itself a retaliatory action - but that's exactly what it is, an exception (as the source clearly states) rather than a rule - whereas the killing of Polish civilians by Saugumas was pretty much routine.

Hence I am going to restore original text.VolunteerMarek 23:32, 28 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Plan of section "Interaction with other groups"

Currently the section "Interaction with other groups" ([2]) has such subsections:

  • Interaction with the Jewish community and Jewish resistance
  • Interaction with the Lithuanian Nazi collaborators
  • Interaction with Red Army and Soviet partisans
  • Interaction with Ukrainian partisans and Nazi collaborators

Wouldn't it be better to shorten all those names to:

  • Interaction with Jews
  • Interaction with Lithuanians
  • Interaction with Soviets
  • Interaction with Ukrainians

Among other advantages, that would correct the, er, anomaly, of section "Interaction with the Lithuanian Nazi collaborators" starting with "Although Lithuanian and Polish resistance movements had in principle the same enemies – Nazi Germany and Soviet Union [...]"...

Afterwards, other problems with neutrality of this section could probably be solved. --Martynas Patasius (talk) 22:15, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good. Also, we may want to consider changing interactions to relations. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 00:52, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. Done ([3]). --Martynas Patasius (talk) 17:26, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Polish Righteous among the Nations

"Many members of Home Army was awarded Polish Righteous among the Nations medals after war: Władysław Bartoszewski, Zofia Kossak-Szczucka, Aleksander Kamiński, Jan Dobraczyński, Henryk Woliński, Mieczysław Fogg and others."

True, but unreferenced. Feel free to restore it, once proper inline refs are present. Ping User:Poeticbent. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:09, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the article is in a mess right now and needs work. It has been listed as wp:Good article over 5 years ago but if it isn't improved further, it risks another wp:Good article reassessment leading to even more trouble. Poeticbent talk 11:32, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think this article is so bad. I removed some unref'ed claims, added few refs. Seems good to me. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:32, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Please reformat those collapsible sortable wikitables into regular tables and put them at the bottom of article. They cause parsing errors on my screen. Besides, per MOS:COLLAPSE boxes that toggle text between hide and show, should not conceal article content. Also, collapsible content is not always accessible on devices that do not support JavaScript or CSS. Poeticbent talk 17:02, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure how to reformat them; and their location seems appropriate. Perhaps you could ask at WP:VPT for someone to work on the tables? I am not a table expert, unfortunately. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:20, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Small museum in Michigan - notable?

"Another Polish Home Army Museum is located outside Poland, in Orchard Lake, Michigan, United States." I removed this unreferenced mention due to problems with WP:V and by extension, notability. See also Talk:Polish Home Army Museum, Orchard Lake, Michigan. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:28, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Home Army

I propose that this article be retitled from "Armia Krajowa" to "Home Army", in the interest of making the specific subject – and, by extension, Poland and its history generally – more accessible to non-Poles. Nihil novi (talk) 05:16, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • The way it sounds now, Armia Krajowa is so undeniably Polish that it does not even need a country description in its title, but Home Army, if we were to rename it, should really be the Polish Home Army to be understood... similar to any domestic army. Conversely, Wehrmacht is a good precedence for keeping it the way it is in my view. Poeticbent talk 06:25, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The term "Armia Krajowa" is immediately recognizable as Polish only to a Pole (or perhaps another Slav), who can also pronounce it correctly. To a non-Pole, it is not obviously Polish, and moreover will be mispronounced, even with the pronunciation guide.
"Wehrmacht" is a different matter. That term is much better known in the world, though it too will be mispronounced by many non-Germans.
"Home Army" already redirects to "Armia Krajowa". But I could, if necessary, settle for "Polish Home Army".
German history is much better known in the West than Polish history. It's my purpose to make Polish history more widely familiar by removing needless linguistic impediments. Nihil novi (talk) 09:01, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have thoroughly edited this article, making it grammatically, stylistically and vocabularily more readable and accurate. I wanted to move "Armia Krajowa" to the normal English-language rendering, "Home Army", but the system would not permit it. It also wouldn't permit variants such as "Polish Home Army" or "Home Army (Poland)", but it finally did accept the somewhat ungainly "Poland's Home Army".

I think "Poland's Home Army" is still easier for non-Poles to work with than "Armia Krajowa", but I would prefer the plain "Home Army", which up to now redirected to "Armia Krajowa". I would appreciate it if someone versed in arranging title moves could assist with this. Nihil novi (talk) 10:21, 25 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Sorry, you do not have the wp:consensus for what you just did. The regular channel is to request the Renaming of article and waiting for feedback. Instead, you chose a less desirable title only because it allowed you to rename the article on your own, without asking for opinion. I oppose it. My first choice was, and still is: Armia Krajowa, similar to Wehrmacht, with no italics. BTW, thanks for other improvements Nihil novi. User:Piotrus was already at it in 2005 and I'd like to see what he thinks also. Poeticbent talk 16:42, 25 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, then I guess for the sake of consistency we should rename "Government Delegation for Poland" to "Delegatura Rządu Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej na Kraj". Nihil novi (talk) 20:18, 25 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No objection to Home Army, but this shouldn't have been moved to the current title. Please go to WP:RM technical moves and request a fix. For old discussions, see Talk:Armia_Krajowa/Archive_1#Requested_move. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 00:33, 26 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I wanted to request a move at "WP:RM technical moves" as you suggest, but couldn't figure out how to do it. That's why I requested assistance here. Nihil novi (talk) 01:49, 26 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I'll ask for this move to be reverted an a proper RM started. In the future, feel free to ask me to request such moves on your behalf. Cheers, --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:33, 26 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. The consensus is that an additional disambiguating term -- (Poland) -- is unneeded, as the base term currently redirects to this article. Xoloz (talk) 16:12, 3 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Armia Krajowa → Home Army – I am starting this requested move discussion on behalf of User:Nihil novi, who asked for help with the RM procedure above. I'll quote his opening statement: "I propose that this article be retitled from "Armia Krajowa" to "Home Army", in the interest of making the specific subject – and, by extension, Poland and its history generally – more accessible to non-Poles." For the record, I, user Piotrus, will abstain from this RM, as I am fine with either name. An old discussion on this topic can be found at Talk:Armia_Krajowa/Archive_1#Requested_move Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:37, 26 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Poland's Home Army → Home Army – This is the English equivalent of "Armia Krajowa". – Nihil novi (talk) 04:47, 26 May 2014 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:38, 26 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've copied and pasted the above here because I presume that it might be overlooked where it originally appeared.

I'm a little puzzled by the comment that "a disambiguator is needed", since "Home Army" linked — and continues to link — to "Armia Krajowa": which suggests, to me, that there is no ambiguity. Nihil novi (talk) 07:18, 26 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, I'm not opposed to Home Army, but I don't think the disambiguation hurts, and can only actually help in this regard. Other bodies have been referred to as "home armies", as shown at the disambiguation page. However, if consensus is in favour of Home Army, I am not opposed. RGloucester — ☎ 21:56, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support for moving from "Armia Krajowa" to "Home Army". Over the past fifteen years or so I've seen the usage in English language works change on this. Counter-intuitively, earlier "Armia Krajowa" was actually more frequent - because it was mostly only written by specialists working in a narrow area. Over time as some elements of Polish history got more exposure in the West, non-specialists entered the conversation and they tended to use "Home Army". This caused a flip around some kind of tipping point and now my sense is that the latter is more frequent. I also don't think (oppose) that the qualification "(Poland)" is needed (i.e. oppose "Home Army (Poland")). A look into the sources and the subject shows that *this* particular Home Army is the primary topic here.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:24, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Is it ok then if I also move the Armia Krajowa Template as well, for sake of consistency? Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:01, 3 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I would.
Thank you! Nihil novi (talk) 05:56, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Syntax screwup post-move

G'day @Kirill Lokshin: Can you see what the problem is with this one? Since the recent move it has come up on Category:Military history articles needing attention to tagging, and I've moved the old MH peer review (had never struck one of those before...), but it's still stuck. Could you have a look? Thanks, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:24, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Peacemaker67: The issue was a broken link to the old A-Class review. I've created a redirect from the new title, so the article should no longer be flagged as being tagged incorrectly. Kirill [talk] 09:52, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The name of the article

Greetings. I think that the name should be moved from Home Army to The Polish Home Army while "Home Army" is too general and might lead to some confusion. It's just my suggestion. Yatzhek (talk) 15:18, 18 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A recent RM decided that disambiguation isn't needed. See the above discussion. RGloucester — ☎ 15:25, 18 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the information. This was just a suggestion. Regards. Yatzhek (talk) 16:01, 18 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Relations with Belarusians is needed

Xx236 (talk) 07:03, 15 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Ethnic cleansing of the Ukrainians

re: this revert with edit summary "Major operations: unsupported claim" -- In fact, a series of massacres of civil Ukrainians by AK are well documented (see uk:Категорія:Воєнні злочини Армії Крайової) and some authors do refer this to as "ethnic cleansing" (cited even in this article). However I agree with the revert of inclusion of this statement into "Major operations", since massacres of civilians were not "major operations"; they were a series of local reprisals against UPA, which went overboard, as it was happening everywhere in areas of ethnic conflicts during WWII (and this happened even in modern times eg in Yugoslavia). Staszek Lem (talk) 17:51, 23 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • The magic phrase here in Wikipedia is compliance with reliable third-party sources. The article by Piotr Lipiński in Wyborcza says nothing (at all!) about ethnic cleansing. It speaks about a book written by a terminally-ill man who executed szmalcowniks as a teenager. Poeticbent talk 18:19, 23 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • The magic phrase in Wikipedia is "due diligence". In my reply Lipinski is irrelevant. If my points were invalid, then the statement in question could have been easily restored with proper sources (eg Timothy Snyder, "To Resolve the Ukrainian Question Once and for All: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ukrainians in Poland, 1943–1947). My point is that massacres of Ukrainians by Polish partisans, covered elsewhere in Wikipedia, were never described as a "major operation". Staszek Lem (talk) 19:12, 23 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry but Lipinski is very much relevant when his article he's being misquoted by a senior editor in English Wikipedia for reasons that escape me. – Why use his article at all, I ask? Meanwhile, article by Timothy Snyder, "To Resolve the Ukrainian Question Once and for All" is about Operation Vistula (a population transfer). I looked at Category uk:Категорія:Воєнні злочини Армії Крайової in the Ukrainian Wikipedia. It lists five (5) articles and one documentary film in Ukrainian (silent about UPA). The five articles about the retaliatory actions by self-defence units are also written in the Polish Wikipedia. They include:
10 March 1944: uk:Різня в Сагрині → pl:Zbrodnia w Sahryniu
3 March 1945: uk:Трагедія села Павлокоми → pl:Zbrodnie w Pawłokomie
11 April 1945: uk:Різня в Бахові → pl:Zbrodnia w Bachowie
 uk:Різня в Березці → pl:Zbrodnia w Brzusce
 uk:Різня в Сівчині → pl:Zbrodnie w Sufczynie
The retaliatory actions are well known, but they were not a proportional response to OUN-UPA policy of extermination in the name of ethnic purity. I fully agree with what you said about the revert of course. A "major operation" would imply central planning. Poeticbent talk 20:42, 23 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not arguing that AK didn't kill Ukrainians or there were no anti-Ukrainian massacres. These killings are already mentioned in the section "Relations with Ukrainians". As for "To Resolve...", Snyder does describe the removal of Ukrainians from Eastern Poland through population transfers as "ethnic cleansing", but he doesn't write that Home Army was responsible for ethnic cleansing of Ukrainian population or that ethnic cleansing of Ukrainians was its major operation. From "To Resolve...":

    The essay will focus mainly on the homogenizing policy of the Polish Communist regime from 1944 to 1947, but it will begin from the premise that some understanding of the cleansing of Poles by Ukrainians from 1943 to 1944 and of the Second World War in Galicia and Volhynia is necessary for an explanation and assessment of that Polish policy. (...) The cleansing of Ukrainians from southeastern Poland from 1944 to 1947 is the primary focus, but, to provide an appropriate context, the article begins with the cleansing of Poles from western Ukraine in 1943.

    Snyder's article is divided into sections:

    Ukrainian Partisans Murder Polish Civilians (1943–1944) / Soviet and Polish Communist Regimes Deport Poles and Ukrainians (1944–1946) / The Polish Communist Regime Disperses Ukrainians: Plans (1947) / The Issue of Polish Responsibility (1939-1999)

The reverted claim is not supported by the source (Lipinski). Even if it was, exceptional claims require exceptional (RS) sources. Hedviberit (talk) 05:38, 24 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

fascist Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists

Even if the OUN was fascist, it's not a right place to discuss the subject, I prefer radical nationalistic here.
The word fascist was misused by Soviet propaganda to describe non-communists.Xx236 (talk) 06:32, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Polish underground sometimes cooperated with UPA after the liberation. AK and UPA started the talks in 1944, after disbanding of AK WiN and UPA cooperated. Xx236 (talk) 06:37, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is Shmuel Krakowski reliable?

krakowski was a Communist political officer till 1966, so his opinion about the HA may be biased. Political officers brainwashed drafted soldiers. Certainly not Sine ira et studio.Xx236 (talk) 07:40, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure you're right but we do need a reliable source for that.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:42, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Security Cadre

The phrase about alleged fights inside the ghetto is poorly sourced and should be removed.Xx236 (talk) 10:08, 28 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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AK units hunting down groups

Two editors have claimed the following is an exceptional claim:

"A number of AK detachments were actively engaged in hunting down and murdering Jews."

The claim is supported by the Bauer (1989),[1]: 238  Connelly (2012)[2]: quote  and the Encyclopedia Britannica.[3] Cesarani & Kavanaugh quote an AK order to "move with arms" against "Men and women, especially Jewish women" - refugees - who are conflated with casual robbers and Soviet partisans.[4]: 66–67 

I've previously asked one of the editors why it is exceptional and which sources they contend [5], but the editor has not yet replied. I'm asking again. François Robere (talk) 04:32, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is a GA article and you really need to obtain consensus before making radical changes, which can be easily perceived as highly POV.

There are also some serious problems with the Cesarani & Kavanaugh source, as illustrated that they repeat this myth of Bor-Komorowski's "order" to "move with arms" etc. There was no such order. There were some comments Bor-Komorowski made in a letter to London, but nothing of the sort was ever issued. Additionally if you look at the citation for this faux-"order", you'll note the multiple ellipses, which should be a red flag that different parts of the letter are being strung together to create an impression that Bor-Komorowski said something he didn't say. Here is one source which discusses this matter [6]. Additionally, this was also discussed by Joshua Zimmerman who notes that the origins of this myth about this non-existent order can be traced to back an article publishes decades ago by Shmuel Krakowski in which he mislabeled the letter as "an order" and misrepresented its contents. This was then, unfortunately, repeated by other sources. I don't have the Zimmerman article handy right now, but I'll try to find it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:17, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Here is another source on the non-existent "order", by a historian who acknowledges that he himself fell for this myth [7].Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:21, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Here is one instance where Zimmerman discussed it [8], although I was thinking of a different article.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:26, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Also, can you please stop inserting cherry picked "quotes" all over the place along with your commentary? It's not actually encyclopedic.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:18, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Policy on changes to GAs?
  • Accepted. Keep in mind AK and other organizations routinely referred to Jewish refugees and partisans as "bandits" regardless of their activities, so this doesn't necessary acquits anyone. We can replace the current phrasing with something less decisive, or cite the following regarding Komorowski's general approach.
    • Zimmerman, p. 255[5] suggests the difference between the report and the order was due to outside criticism, or fear thereof, and p. 260 further questions Komorowski's approach to Poland's Jewry.
    • Polonsky is quoted by three of the sources regarding the "conflation" of Jewish refugees with robbers and Soviet partisans.
    • You cited Levine.[6] He has some more material there that we can use here on anti-Semitism and collaboration in the AK.
  • I occasionally use quotes to highlight a fact, but I don't "cherry-pick". If you believe I took a quote out of context, ping me and I'll check it again.
On changes:
  • this simply isn't AK-specific, so I'm not sure why it's in this article. Plus, collaboration with AK itself often carried a death sentence, so there's no added value to claiming that saving refugees would've endangered them further.
  • If you think this is out of context, then place it in context - don't just remove it (and it is in context in this article).
    • The book isn't a "tertiary source" per WP:TERTIARY, and even if it was there's no prohibition of tertiary sources anywhere.
    • On the one hand you removed a supposedly tertiary source, on the other you complained about using primary ones (Bartoszewski's quote). Pick one or the other, but not both!
  • Re: GA - the article got that eight years ago [9], and that paragraph wasn't even there. Why did you remove the Cesarani & Kavanaugh, and Bauer's refs?
  • Re: this - the whole point is the Warsaw ghetto resistance existed for some time before the uprising, when it wasn't supported by the AK, and even when it was it was in "limited quantities". So?
  • What's POV here? Also: Would you prefer we mention how many weapons AK had in total (566 HMGs, 1097 LMGs, 31,391 rifles and 5m rounds of ammunition), for perspective?
  • The "side commentary" is there to prevent claims by some editors (yourself included), of "POV", "cherry picking" etc. etc.
  • This ref was already there. It was "GA", wasn't it? As for "dubious" - it's based on interviews with witnesses, and its claim is repeated in Zimmmerman (2015), p. 171.
François Robere (talk) 08:52, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"Keep in mind AK and other organizations routinely referred to Jewish refugees and partisans as "bandits" regardless of their activities" - no, no they didn't. Read Zimmerman. This is just something you made up. Your POV and OR is showing.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:29, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
See? That's exactly why I put all these quotes in - so you couldn't say that:
Bauer (1989): Orders were issued in 1943 by the AK to kill Jewish "bandits," who were supposedly robbing and otherwise endangering the Polish population.
Cesarani & Kavanaugh: Local commanders and the High Command often referred to these people (and also to Communist partisans) as "bandits," an echo of the language used by the Nazis themselves.
Connelly (2012): In tune with nationalist writers, [Kochanski] calls these [Jewish] partisans “Jewish bandits” and asserts that, by executing such alleged marauders, the AK “protected” the Polish population. And yet, if it had included Jews as part of the population to protect, the Polish underground would have fed those in hiding rather than hunt them down. In a sense, members of the AK were also bandits, dependent on the local population for provisions, taking by force what they could not obtain by consent. Why does Kochanski think that Polish Jewish partisans were a menace whereas Polish Christian partisans were not?
Krakowski, in Zimmerman (2003), p. 103: A very painful phenomenon was the widespread hostility of a significant part of the Polish underground toward Jewish armed detachments in the forests. Many documents of the Home Army and the Delegatura refer to these detachments as gangs of bandits and robbers. These allegations appeared often starting from the end of 1942 until the summer of 1944.
Say whatever you want, but I did not make that up.
What about the other points? Should I expect resistance there? François Robere (talk) 14:54, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Bauer and C&K are just repeating the "order myth" which has been debunked by Armstrong and Zimmerman, and which has been acknowledged by other historians. This is obvious, particularly with Bauer. So no, this doesn't prove anything. Connelly simply does not state what you are claiming, so I have no idea why you're putting him up. Krakowski, is already addressed. Sorry, man. Fail.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:10, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If you haven't checked Bauer's source then you're guessing; C&K use "often" and add interpretation, suggesting that's not their only source; Connelly doesn't state that, but he does make an important connection for editors coming to judge those sources; and Krakowski is mentioned in two other contexts, not in the usage of "bandits" by AK. So - not fail! François Robere (talk) 16:38, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you assuming that I haven't? But yes, it's obvious from the text here as well.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:44, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to me, that even in a cursory check, one can find many RSes saying that some AK units (contrary to orders from the government in exile) attacked Jews.Icewhiz (talk) 15:00, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is a different claim though than the text that FR is trying to insert and different than the claim he is making. Yes, there were some AK units who did this. What is "some" though? We're talking about an organization that at its peak had 400,000 members.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:10, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's a difficult question to answer. I think Zimmerman is fairly balanced (and attempts to describe rather than accuse or venerate) - however the sources range here from some Jewish survivors saying (echoed in RSes) "they were all anti-semites", to more nuanced accounts such as Zimmerman (who says some were X, others were Y), to hagiographical (from the 90s onwards, and prior to that from communities in exile) accounts that "hear no evil, see no evil". Given the breadth here, attribution is probably due. I think Zimmerman is a good source - the problem is that it is also a very long source - you have a whole chapter (10) on the negative, and then chapters on institutional(11) and individual(12) help (with the rest of the book being a long timeline covering the same issue) - so you can easily paint a false picture by using one aspect from him (10 vs. 11/12). Order 116 and other actions of Tadeusz Bór-Komorowski are somewhat notorious. I actually think that in this case - finding source(s) that summarizes the topic (e.g. literature reviews, or perhaps an author such as Zimmerman giving a concise summary in an interview) is better for reflecting balance than the more detailed sources (which editors may summarize incorrectly - or search for results - e.g. cherrypicking Zimmerman you could present a scathing or hagiographical account based on what you pick from there).Icewhiz (talk) 15:55, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, both that it is a difficult question and that Zimmerman is pretty balanced. But once again, I don't thing there was such a thing as "Order 116" (unless you're referring to the one where Jews were NOT mentioned).Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:42, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
My understanding is that critics of order 116 (of which there are quite a few) say that "bandits" was a way of saying "Jews hiding in the countryside/forests" - a dog whistle.Icewhiz (talk) 18:57, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, they might say that but you'd need sources. And it's undoubtedly false, since the primary concern and the reason for the order was the very real and extensive banditry by Polish groups.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:54, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It also isn't only some, but sometimes/somewhere - depending on leadership, the units involved, and other constraints - e.g. (per my understanding of the sources) the Home Army was generally supportive (perhaps insufficiently so, but still supportive) of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (which was aligned with Polish goals) - while being very-very wary of survivors attempting to hide in the woods (labelled, correctly or incorrectly, as "bandits" - who attempted to live off the land and were sometimes armed (usually not very well) and sometimes (particularly when not accepted by the AK) sympathetic to the Soviets).Icewhiz (talk) 16:00, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the "where" in the some matter a good bit.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:42, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Volunteer Marek: I just want to know - there was a whole slew of objections I replied to upstairs. Do you have any comments on those? Further objections? I don't intend on "warring" over those, but if you have objections I want to know in detail, not "that's POVish" and that's it. François Robere (talk) 16:43, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the "whole slew of objections" is part of the problem. You make massive POV changes, then want to discuss all of them at once and expect others to answer in precise detail and argue every single point with you. The result is walls of text, incomprehensible discussions and situations where by the third or fourth iterations everyone's forgotten what it was that was being discussed. Here's a reminder: it's up to YOU to get WP:CONSENSUS for changes, especially given the GA level of this article (whenever it got it).Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:40, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And it's also up to you to argue your objections, rather than just raising - and I did ask...
Anyway, I suggest you pick some change you object to and we can discuss it to your hearts content (or until we're at an impasse), before moving to the next change. What do you think? François Robere (talk) 19:50, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
But sure, we can take another one. How in the world is the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising "late in the war"? And you're cherry picking like crazy from Zimmerman and Rashke, putting aside that Rashke's book isn't even about this topic. As an obvious example you omit Rowecki's statement "I have the highest respect for what the Jews intend to do. But it has no military significance... I will do what I can". Omitting this key part, and including what you're trying to include is an obvious attempt to misrepresent the sources - Zimmerman and Rashke - and Rowecki himself (subtly implying that he was motivated by anti-semitism). That kind of edit is textbook WP:TENDENTIOUS and probably a violation of discretionary sanctions here.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:51, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps it was the wrong way to put it - it's not so much "late in the war" as "late in the rebellion": These attitudes (the desire to avoid a premature uprising, suspicions about the Jewish sympathy for Communism and a belief that the weapons provided would not be used efficaciously) largely explain the meager supply of arms to the Warsaw and other ghettos. In the case of Warsaw, more weapons were supplied after the confrontation with the Nazis in mid-January 1943 had demonstrated the willingness of the Jewish Fighting Organization to undertake armed action. The smaller Jewish Military Union (Zydowski Zwivek Wojskowy), which was controlled by the Revisionist Zionists—who had some prewar links with the Polish military and who were impeccably anti-Communist—had more initial success in obtaining weapons.[4]: 97 
Most of Zimmerman's quotes in this article, if not all, were there before, so you'll have to be specific. As for Rashke - he's just a secondary source here, but his claim is established by Zimmerman quoting the actual message from the Jewish resistance to Sikorski. Regarding Rowecki - I'm not at all trying to imply he had overt antisemitic motives; AK's order of priorities is already covered with another quote of Zimmerman, about the allied strategy etc. (which from my understanding is true). What isn't covered (or wasn't covered) is that AK did give very little, and very late, as they underestimated the rebellion's chance of success (Rowecki is quoted as saying the Germans will crush it "in a few hours", which of course they didn't). The rest of that paragraph also settles well with the other sources, about "waiting for a critical moment" etc. If you'd asked for my lay opinion (WP:NOTAFORUM and all that), I'd have said that antisemitism could've played into it subtly - eg. in making assumptions about Jews' ability to fight (not an uncommon perception in period Zionism either) - but it's not the main point here, and I wouldn't make it without a source explicitly saying so. What I would say, is that the government-in-exile was mostly understanding; the AK leadership was at worst indifferent ("not part of the Polish nation" etc.); and the fighters themselves varied markedly. That's what I'm seeing in the sources, and I don't really mind which specific quote we use to establish it. François Robere (talk) 19:50, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So first, I note that there's still no source for "late", in either war or "rebellion". And... "late in the rebellion"? What's that mean? The uprising started on April 19th. The guns were given to ZOB prior to the break out of the uprising (and more was given to ZZW even before that). Because no one asked for them before that (afaik) So I have no idea what you're going on about. Are you clear on the timeline here? The war lasted from 1939 till 1945. The uprising lasted about a month. There's no "late in" anywhere here.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:05, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And I'm not removing anything from Zimmerman that was "here before". I'm removing some strange text you've added which you claim is based on Zimmerman, but which actually isn't.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:07, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Timeline: the Warsaw ghetto was formed in October 1940; deportations to Treblinka started in July 1942 (the ghetto already saw massive casualties by then); the plea to Sikorski was passed in September 1942; the "confrontation" (see above) took place in January 1943, and the uprising in April 1943. Bottom line: The resistance didn't supply the Warsaw ghetto with anything meaningful for two out of the 2.5 years that it existed, during which 92,000-100,000 people died of hunger and disease, and another 250,000-260,000 people were sent to Treblinka. That's "late" by several measures, but you may rephrase as you wish.
What did I mis-cite as Zimmerman? François Robere (talk) 06:14, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Volunteer Marek: ? François Robere (talk) 18:42, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know what you want me to say except what I already said. Here it is again: So first, I note that there's still no source for "late", in either war or "rebellion".
(Also your statement: "The resistance didn't supply the Warsaw ghetto with anything meaningful for two out of the 2.5 years that it existed, during which 92,000-100,000 people died of hunger and disease, and another 250,000-260,000 people were sent to Treblinka. That's "late" by several measures, but you may rephrase as you wish." is, frankly, idiotic. Who were they suppose to supply? ZOB? Oh wait, ZOB didn't exist until November 1942 (not October 1940). And when did they first receive supplies from Home Army? That's right. December 1942. I mean, being so deeply ignorant of basic facts about what you're trying to write about is one thing (never mind the complete lack of sourcing). But then slapping this over-the-top extremist and fringe POV on top of it - the part which tries to blame the deaths from hunger and disease and deaths in Treblinka on the Home Army (For. Fucks. Sake!) - just takes the cake. And it really really really puts the bias and the POV you bring to this article on display for everyone to see.
Just no. Quit while you're... not that too far behind.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:12, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You're setting the stage for a "disruptive edits" argument, Marek. If you ask a question, then I answer, then you disappear but still refuse my changes, then that's disruptive. The same goes for your other edit.
You asked about the usage of "late", and claimed I mis-cited Zimmerman; I answered:
  1. Regarding "late": ZOB didn't exist until November 1942 actually July 1942 [10]. This means that by your timeline they were first supplied nearly half a year after they were formed (and almost three months after Sikorski himself approved it), which is pretty late. ZZW was formed much earlier, in Nov. 1939 [11], so Dec. 1942 is even later.
  2. You haven't answered my question about mis-citing Zimmerman.
  3. You claim "complete lack of sourcing" - of what exactly? I quoted several sources throughout this discussion and the article.
  4. Can you quote the place where, according to you, I make that accusation of AK you claim I made? François Robere (talk) 23:19, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"of what exactly?" - ffs, you know exactly what! The "late in the war" nonsense. Stop playing games.Volunteer Marek (talk) 12:01, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

by your timeline they were first supplied nearly half a year after they were formed (and almost three months after Sikorski himself approved it), which is pretty late. ZZW was formed much earlier, in Nov. 1939 [12], so Dec. 1942 is even later. Is that not correct? Would you like to use a different phrase, like "late in the existance of the ghetto"? François Robere (talk) 12:42, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Of course you do. With what exactly? François Robere (talk) 02:21, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Everything what he wrote aboveGizzyCatBella (talk) 02:32, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So I assume you can tell me where I mis-cited Zimmerman, like he claims. François Robere (talk) 02:43, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You misrepresented SEVERAL sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 12:01, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
For Zimmerman in particular, you tried to use him to back this claim up, quote (of you): "AK and other organizations routinely referred to Jewish refugees and partisans as "bandits" regardless of their activities" ". This is complete nonsense and Zimmerman does not say anything like that. And like I said, this is just ONE example out of MANY of you misrepresenting sources (the other instances are the whole "order" thing and the "late in the war" thing, but there are yet more). Stop playing games.Volunteer Marek (talk) 12:03, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Copied from above:

Krakowski, in Zimmerman (2003), p. 103: A very painful phenomenon was the widespread hostility of a significant part of the Polish underground toward Jewish armed detachments in the forests. Many documents of the Home Army and the Delegatura refer to these detachments as gangs of bandits and robbers. These allegations appeared often starting from the end of 1942 until the summer of 1944.

Anything else? François Robere (talk) 12:42, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is NOT Zimmerman as you previously claimed. Stop. playing. games.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:22, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Where did I say it was? François Robere (talk) 13:31, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is total cherry picking of sources and distortion.Armia Krajowa clashed with "Jewish detachments" because they were Communists and because they collaborated with the Soviet Partisans in slaughters of Polish villagers as in Naliboki massacre. Not because they were Jews.GizzyCatBella (talk) 13:08, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Bella, WP:IDONTLIKEIT isn't an argument, and "cherry picking" isn't a cure-all for quotes you don't like. François Robere (talk) 13:31, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's not because I don't like it FR. My concerns are that it appears you cherry-picked a source to push a narrative of AK attacking Jews merely because they were Jewish, which was not the case. To be honest, I wouldn't even consider "Jewish Partisans" to be "Jewsh," most of them were Communists backed by the Soviets. Not truly Jews; they were communist/leftist partisans of Jewish pedigree.GizzyCatBella (talk) 14:53, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Wherein you again do a racist WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Well done, Bella. François Robere (talk) 16:33, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
What the hell is racist about what I wrote!? I'm further from being a racist than you can even imagine! This is entirely overboard FR; you are falsely accusing me of racism now!!! It's the second time you insult me. First with A..s word now you accusing me of being racist, that's it! I can't tolerate any more abuse from you.GizzyCatBella (talk) 17:06, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Bauer, Yehuda (1989). "Jewish Resistance and Passivity in the Face of the Holocaust". Unanswered questions: Nazi Germany and the genocide of the Jews (1st American ed ed.). New York: Schocken Books. pp. 235–251. ISBN 978-0-8052-0908-2. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help); Unknown parameter |editors= ignored (|editor= suggested) (help)
  2. ^ Connelly, John (2012-11-14). "The Noble and the Base: Poland and the Holocaust". The Nation. ISSN 0027-8378. Retrieved 2018-04-22.
  3. ^ "Jewish partisan". Encyclopedia Britannica. Retrieved 2018-03-12.
  4. ^ a b Holocaust: Responses to the persecution and mass murder of the Jews. Holocaust: critical concepts in historical studies. Vol. 5. David Cesarani, Sarah Kavanaugh (eds.). London ; New York: Routledge. 2004. ISBN 978-0-415-27509-5 978-0-415-27510-1 978-0-415-27511-8 978-0-415-27512-5 978-0-415-27513-2 978-0-415-31871-6 978-0-415-31872-3. {{cite book}}: Check |isbn= value: length (help)CS1 maint: others (link)
  5. ^ Zimmerman, Joshua D. (2015). The Polish underground and the Jews, 1939-1945. New York, NY: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-107-01426-8.
  6. ^ Levine, Allan (2010-07-13). Fugitives of the Forest: The Heroic Story Of Jewish Resistance And Survival During The Second World War. Rowman & Littlefield. ISBN 978-1-4617-5005-5.
Cite error: A list-defined reference named "Zimmerman 2003" is not used in the content (see the help page).

The Warsaw ghetto uprising

Jewish fighters of the Jewish Military Union received from the Home Army, among other things: 2 heavy machine guns, 4 light machine guns, 21 submachine guns, 30 rifles, 50 pistols, and over 400 grenades.[75] "By way of comparison", notes Yehuda Bauer, "the AK in 1941 claimed to possess 566 heavy machine-guns, 1097 light machine-guns, 31,391 rifles, and 5 million rounds of ammunition."[65]:21

I'm sorry, but I think this quote is wrong. Armaments, which Bauer reports, refer to the entire armaments throughout the territory of the Second Republic of Poland. It would be more appropriate to specify how many weapons AK had in Warsaw, not the whole country, and it would have to be added that the AK itself had problems with armaments. Even during the Warsaw Uprising, only 4% of the insurgents were armed.

I will also disagree with this statement Timeline: the Warsaw ghetto was formed in October 1940; deportations to Treblinka started in July 1942 (the ghetto already saw massive casualties by then); the plea to Sikorski was passed in September 1942; the "confrontation" (see above) took place in January 1943, and the uprising in April 1943. Bottom line: The resistance didn't supply the Warsaw ghetto with anything meaningful for two out of the 2.5 years that it existed, during which 92,000-100,000 people died of hunger and disease, and another 250,000-260,000 people were sent to Treblinka. That's "late" by several measures

"Thanks to the close ties with the Związek Walki Zbrojnej and then the AK (mainly through Iwański's Security Corps, the Polish underground police force), the ŻZW received a large number of guns and armaments, as well as training of their members by professional officers. Those resistance organizations also provided help with weapons and ammunition acquisition, as well as with organizing the escapes" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Military_Union#Formation ZZW received earlier assistance from the ZWZ, renamed later in the Home Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Armed_Struggle Mat0018 (talk) 19:28, 22 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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