Talk:Deportation of the Crimean Tatars

English titles

A comment from an outsider: Sürgün indeed has a wider definition and use in Turkic languages than implied in this article. See for reference http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sürgün_(Imperio_Otomano). 8 July 2009.

I suggest using English for article titles and rename this into Deportation of Crimean Tatars (1944). We can still mention Sürgün in the article's text of course. --Irpen 20:40, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't really know what we should name the article, but we do have Holodomor and not Ukrainian famine which redirects to the article.. I am for either one.. —dima/s-ko/ 01:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, I am not sure it should not be the other way around in Holodomor. Secondly, Holodomor is at least somewhat, however little, established name in English literature on the subject. Can we say the same about Surgun? --Irpen 02:24, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Well no, it's not very established. Doing a quick google check, Sürgün + Crimea (so only English language links will popup) gives 718 ghits, and Deporation + Crimean Tatars — 36,500. Even Google books search yields more results for Deporation + Crimean Tatars (402) v.s. 12 on Sürgün.. So we should perhaps move the article (if no one else objects) since the title is not established in eng. lang. —dima/s-ko/ 02:36, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

However, official Crimean Tatar sources prefer to use Surgun or Sürgün. Moreover, I think even this term is rather modern, the Crimeans tend to use this term. The such situation could be observed at Paraimos. I think the title shouldn't be moved --Üñţïf̣ļëŗ (see also:ә? Ә!) 08:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

If the terms are used for articles' titles those should only be the ones that are established English names. In an absence of those, the descriptive name should be used. Deportation of Crimean Tatars (1944) would be a name that does not attempt to hide or white-wash anything but the reader is more likely to be able to get an idea of the article's topic from the title. Surgun is meaningless for those who don't know the Tatar language. --Irpen 17:33, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

As well as Holodomor, Porajmos, Holocaust, Urkun and other terms. Sürgün is not so widely used, but the mass-media tend to use it. --Üñţïf̣ļëŗ (see also:ә? Ә!) 18:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Holocaust is widely used. Holodomor is used as well. IMO, it is still better to rename it to Famine in Ukraine (1932-1933) but even as is it is still the term that can be found in English literature, unlike Surgun. I don't understand why you object and want to impose a non-English and an unknown term on the readers which would less likely to even click on the article under the titles that means nothing to them. Surgun can and will be me mentioned in the first line of the article. --Irpen 18:43, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

mmm... deportation itself means only deportation, whereas Sürgün includes not only deportation, but a life in exile too. Please, compare other events I'd listed, especially Urkun. User:Untifler

P.s. I'm not sure but sürgün is not Turkish fo r exile, Crimean only. User:Untifler

       It is both Turkish and Crimean for exile  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.104.50.40 (talk) 19:04, 31 May 2008 (UTC) 

Life in the exile is certainly a part of the deportation theme and can be covered in the article. I do not insist on my title. I just want something that sounds meaningful in English. If Surgun has any use, even as little as Holodomor I would have accepted it but it seems to me that for English it is a complete neologism. --Irpen 20:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

There is one more reason for the current name. Sürgün is a bit Turkified term. In standard Crimean Tatar the word sürgün means "someone who is exiled/deported", and the word for the "exile/deportation" is sürgünlik. Turks use term sürgün in both meanings. Don Alessandro (talk) 11:25, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Please provide citation for the statement that the alleged collaboration was a pretext. Personally, Stalin's very well documented paranoia sounds like a more plausible explanation to me. Andries (talk) 10:42, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

OMG, this is pure propaganda - 20 thousand Crimean Tatars served in Wehrmacht. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.74.230.177 (talk) 01:14, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

And I am in no way surprised they did. 197.228.26.63 (talk) 21:16, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

I think you meant the Waffen-SS. Crimean Tatars were not in the Heer or the German navy nor the Luftwaffe.

Served is wrong as most were forced. 88.250.71.19 (talk) 15:52, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Population graph

What's the source of information on that newly added graph by User:Ahnoneemoos? SkywalkerPL (talk) 13:07, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

• Table at [1] —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 13:12, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

NPOV

"Tatar people suffered from the man-made famine of Holodomor"

Holy hell. so much wrong with that already. This isn't even npov related but out right cold war era propaganda attacks. This world is getting scarier.

-G — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.38.213 (talk • contribs)

I am by no means an expert in Soviet/Ukrainian/Crimean Tatar history, but that sentence comes from an academic paper presented at the Columbia University by historian Otto Pohl, and is confirmed by National Geographic. These are rather reliable sources, however, if you elaborate on what makes these resources, which were published some time after the Cold War, "propaganda attacks", and support your claim with evidence, it would be contribute to the article in a more constructive way IMHO. I have already changed the wording a bit. --GGT (talk) 19:00, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Otto Pohl does't have any published papers on Tatars history. NG is not a historical institution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nanoworld (talk • contribs) 00:19, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

National Geographic and a historian from Columbia University are both good WP:RS. Jeppiz (talk) 00:25, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Number of deported

The article says:

• (1) "A total of 238,500 people were deported"
• (2) "183,155 - 193,865 Crimean Tatars were deported"

I understand these numbers are estimates by different authors based on different sources, and it is OK. However wikipedia must present these data in a reconciled form. Whoever has access to the sources cited, please do so.Staszek Lem (talk) 16:40, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

crematoria on wheels

• The cars were called "crematoria on wheels" by Crimean Tatars.

I believe they were called so. But I also believe that it is an anachronism: AFAIK the general knowledge about crematoria in Nazi death camps was not commonly available until the end of the war. So I doubt that such an isolated place as Crimea had this term common enough to put it into a phraseology of the time. I would suggest to clarify the issue; e.g., I would expect something like: "In their memoirs, Crimean Tatars called these cars 'crematoria on wheels". Staszek Lem (talk) 16:56, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Sources for SS groups of Crimea Tatars

I cannot insert link to sources.

---

Official justification related with involvement about 20.000 Crimea Tatars in SS criminal actions of Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Regiment der SS (tatarische), Waffen-Verbände der SS and "Schuma". Waffen SS soldiers from Crimea Tatars killed at least 15.000 civilians near "Krasny" village SS-Waffengruppe Krim of Osttürkischer Waffenverband der SS killed many people in Poland during Warsaw Uprising

Propaganda

Dear english speaking authors. This article turned to pure propaganda. A number of rumors and lie statements are cited from Pohl, Otto J. and so called International Committee For Crimea. This source is not per-reviewed scientific source and it can contain anything. Please fix this problem. My english knowledge does not allow me to do it myself — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nanoworld (talk • contribs) 15:24, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

There is nothing concrete in your comment, just a smear of a person you don't like. Future disruptive comments of that kind will be removed, as Wikipedia is not a forum. Jeppiz (talk) 00:28, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Historian Statiev says about Pohl Pohl relies solely on published documents and offers a synthesis of Russian and Western writings.

In another page Pohl, Statiev says that Pohl is confusing the Ukranian famine with the Tatars of Crimea. As they have with the North Caucasian ethnic groups, some historians writing about Tatars baselessly attribute unrelated episodes and aspects of Soviet policy to this shift. Otto Pohl claims that(..)

So the work of Pohl is heavily critised.

--Istoria1944 (talk) 12:10, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

The greatest proportion of nazi collaborator

As a source i used The Nature of Anti-Soviet Armed Resistance, 1942-44: The North Caucasus, the Kalmyk Autonomous Republic, and Crimea, Alexander Statiev Kritika: Explorations in Russian and Eurasian History, Volume 6, Number 2, Spring 2005 (New Series), pp. 285-318 (Article), page 315 ", but the proportion of Tatar collaborators was the greatest, about 10 percent of the population;

if any problem exists, please inform to fix it. Please do not revert my contribution without justification, cause i used a university and reliable source--Istoria1944 (talk) 11:47, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Misleading and false claim

"Even though the Volga Tatars actually participated in collaboration in far higher proportion than the Crimean Tatars, with 35,000–40,000 volunteers fighting with the Axis, they avoided any kind of collective punishment."

This is absolutely astonishing. Whoever wrote this is lacking basic knowledge about the Soviet Union and its population. Per the 1939 census, there were about 200,000 Crimean Tatars and about 3.5 million Tatars in the rest of of Russia and including the Tatar, Chuvash, Bashkir autonomous regions.

It's estimated here[2]that about 300,000 Russians fought in Vlasov's ranks and other pro-German units. There were 100 million Russians in 1940. So that would mean 0.3% of Russians collaborated with the Nazis. At the same time, the lowest estimate is that 10,000 Crimean Tatars fought in Nazi Germany's ranks, but this estimate gives us a figure of about 35,000 Crimean Tatars that collaborated with the Nazis in one form or another[3]. So between 5% to 15% of all Crimean Tatars collaborated with the Nazis. At the same time, the Nazis occupied Belarus and there were an estimated 70,000 Belarusian collaborators out of a Belarusian population of about 7 million i.e. 0.93% of Belarusians collaborated with the Nazis.

I don't understand why the Volga Tatars have been slandered in this article? This source[4] shows estimates of 10,000 Crimean Tatars and 12,000 Volga Tatars collaborating with the Germans. There were 200,000 Crimean Tatars and about 3.5 million Tatars in the Volga regions and elsewhere in Russia. Based on this, 5% of Crimean Tatars collaborated with the Germans and 0.3% of Volga Tatars collaborated with the Germans. It is totally unfair to slander and make falsehoods about the Volga Tatars, they served honorably in the war.

15,000–20,000 Crimean Tatars collaborated with the Axis powers. In comparison, 35,000–40,000 Volga Tatars collaborated with the Axis powers. 35,000 or 40,000 is more than 15,000 or 20,000. What is the problem here? I don't know what "topwar.ru" is, but inserting random, obscure websites is not the right way to build a good article. See the reliable sources policy on Wikipedia. Also, this is English Wikipedia, and is under no obligation to use Russian language sources, which might be biased or unreliable with regards to its national past. People who do not speak Russian cannot verify your claims. All the claims in the text are sourced from reliable sources by scholars and historians or international and NGO sources, whereas potentially nationalistic sources are avoided. --Seiya (talk) 08:54, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

You are saying all your claims are sourced from reliable sources, but I have found it is not so. Your claims appear to be entirely OR and giving credence to only one claimed reason by the Soviet Union rather than all the claimed reasons. The 15,000 to 20,000 collaborators you are claiming are self-defense units from what I've read Fisher's book used in the article. Some of them may have had some collaboration like hunting down Soviet Partisans who also attacked Tatar villages, but the sources don't call all of them collaborators. In fact, the source Brian Glyn Williams' book says their main task was always to protect Tatar villages and they also sided with the the partisans sometimes. You should have taken a look at the sources yourself. The BBC source used here called collaboration as an excuse, not that it did happen. It is unacceptable to distort what is claimed by sources. Please don't distort reliable, it's not good behavior. MonsterHunter32 (talk) 11:26, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

OK, then how would you define "collaboration"? Even the articles Schutzmannschaft (police battalions) and Selbstschutz state that the units were loyal to the German army. They may have been self-defense units, but they were still armed and followed instructions from the German army. I don't mind expanding the section, but there has to be a limit somewhere. --Seiya (talk) 15:19, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

"Your claims appear to be entirely OR and giving credence to only one claimed reason by the Soviet Union". Please, read the "Modern views and Legacy" section. You have been a rather superficial reader of this article.--Seiya (talk) 15:48, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Collaboration was not the real point, distortion of what sources said and removing reliably sourced edits of others was. All views should be presented. What other articles say or general claims is not what we have to base it on. What is collabaration: cooperation with an enemy. Saying no one collaborated is also wrong, but making general claims of all self-defense units as collaborators is also wrong especially when the scholarly source is saying something else. MonsterHunter32 (talk) 17:11, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

One of my main problems was also giving credence to only one thing and dismissing other views from some of the sections. We shouldn't overrule others anywhere wheter in lede or other sections of the article. MonsterHunter32 (talk) 10:04, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Genocide

Removing any accusations of genocide from the lede is a severe violation of NPOV and LEAD. Plumber (talk) 02:36, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with NPOV. Look at this template. It's just simply too huge to fit into the article, it distorts pictures and text. Actually, any article would have problems with this wall of text. My suggestion would be: a) either modify and shrink this template b) simply remove it, since there is no clear consensus that this event was genocide. It certainly was a huge crime, but it is not accepted universally to be included into the worst crime possible. c) use this template instead:--Seiya (talk) 08:39, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

source review tips

To check as many errors as possible in the references and/or notes, I recommend using User:Lingzhi/reviewsourcecheck in conjunction with two other scripts. You can install them as follows:

• First, copy/paste importScript('User:Ucucha/HarvErrors.js'); to Special:MyPage/common.js .
• On the same page and below that script add importScript('User:Lingzhi/reviewsourcecheck.js');. Save that page.
• Finally go to to Special:MyPage/common.css and add .citation-comment {display: inline !important;} /* show all Citation Style 1 error messages */.

When you've added all those, go to an article to check for various messages in its notes and references. (You may need to clear your browser's cache first). The output of User:Lingzhi/reviewsourcecheck is not foolproof and can be verbose. Use common sense when interpreting output (especially with respect to sorting errors). Reading the explanatory page will help more than a little. The least urgent message of all is probably Missing archive link; archiving weblinks is good practice but lack of archiving will probably not be mentioned in any content review. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 03:47, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Name of this page

Crimean Tatar Genocide should be the name of this page. According to different sources up to half of Crimean Tatars were murdered while being "deported" due to horrible conditions imposed on them. These people were forced to be transported in extremely cramped up freight wagons. Thousands have died due to being unable to breathe, lack of water and food and cold. This is genocide not a "deportation" and if this isn't a genocide and just a "deportation" then Armenian Genocide was just a deportation too. But it's not. So for neutrality of wikipedia we should treat both of these horrific genocides equally. That's why the name of this page should be changed to Crimean Tatar Genocide. 31.223.26.187 (talk) 14:06, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Deportation of the Crimean Tatars/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Auntieruth55 (talk · contribs) 15:24, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

I'll start this review in a few days auntieruth (talk) 15:24, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

I've looked through the first couple of sections. this article will need work on grammar and "flow"....it seems to jump around, even within paragraphs, between different time periods. It would be good to define "partisans"--were these Soviet partisans, Crimean partisans, Communist, anticommunist? Why did the Soviets deport Tartars who were communists? Or didn't it matter? Was the defining feature Tartar, Muslim, or...something else?
Cheers, auntieruth (talk) 16:33, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Y Done. I clarified the "Background" section, to place the events chronologically and avoid some events "jumping around" within the paragraphs. The partisans were Soviet partisans, and they were linked. The entire Crimean Tatar population was deported, without exception - it didn't matter that they were communists. Interpretations of this decision are given later, in the "Modern views and legacy" section. --Seiya (talk) 16:12, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Hi auntieruth, I haven't seen this review, so I apologize for such a late reply. Please, give me a couple of days to check everything and sort things out. Then I will return with a reply.--Seiya (talk) 16:34, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Seiya, much better. I went through the rest and made some minor tweaks. Please look it through again, and let me know when you're done! Cheers, auntieruth (talk) 15:33, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Great edits in the article, thanks. As far as I'm concerned, it is done, but I still have to leave it up to you. If you have any further comments, or detected any other issues, let me know and I will try to correct them.--Seiya (talk) 06:43, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

It looks good. Seiya, if you plan to take it further in the review process, it should have a serious copy editing from the Guild. auntieruth (talk) 15:21, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Infobox fatality figure

I noticed the fatality counter on the infobox stated "30,000 to 45,000" deaths in exile. Perhaps this meant 40 to 45? Since all the figures in the article body states figures north of 40k. The infobox also doesn't mention timeframe, which is something that's easily forgotten but noteworthy when discussing deaths–they were only allowed to return in 1989 afterall. Some of the timeframe included in the article are 1948 and 1951. While the one that states "40,000 to 80,000" doesn't have a timespan limit but rather overall. DA1 (talk) 11:32, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

@Seiya: One of the numbers you've added to infobox do not factor in deaths during transit (8k), only deaths in destination in exile. The 34,000 figure is being misinterpreted, its only deaths 'after' transport while in exile ("deaths above expected mortality" rate). And even that source states 34,300 not "34,000". DA1 (talk) 11:44, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

For example: 34,300 (Ediev) + 7,889 (NKVD's official est. of deaths during transport) = 42,189. Which coincides with the other figures. This is because it's only counting mortality rates while in exile, the entire page [5] is discussing that, and does not factor direct deaths from transport. You can read page 207 alone, or pages 204-207. It mentions "settlers" and "special settlements" several times because its exclusively discusses deaths within the settlements/settlers and not transit. DA1 (talk) 12:21, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Deportation of the Crimean Tatars montage.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:36, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

2019 recent changes

User:Devlet Geray added a lot of text, but I removed it due to its questionable content. It would be good if we can discuss its sources here before agreeing if they can be added or not.
Several Russian sources were added, but they are unnecessary. This is an English language Wikipedia and we have a lot of English language sources on this topic, which was fairly well covered by scholars and historians. They are unbiased, verifiable and objective. I would hesitate to mix them up with the sources Devlet Geray added.
For instance, one source says that the National movement of Crimean Tatars claimed there were actually 423,100 Tatars on Crimea during that time. Almost none of the interntional scholars or historians mention or corroborate this figure. It should thus be rejected.
The section "Falsification of the data" is odd. I am not sure what the text is saying. One sentences goes like this: "N. F. Bugai and his disciples (A. M. Gonov, A. S. Khunagov, and others) are trying to justify the deportation of the peoples in the USSR". Who says this? Who says that Bugai is justifiying the deportation? Another sentence:

Got acquainted with the materials on the behavior of the Balkars both during the offensive of the German fascist troops in the Caucasus and after their expulsion…

In fact, this telegram starts like this:

Due to the proposed eviction of the Balkars from the North Caucasus, I got acquainted with the materials on the behavior of the Balkars both during the offensive of the German fascist troops in the Caucasus and after their expulsion…

I don't understand what the sentence is question is saying. What is the difference, the major twist of it? Also, it is related to the Balkars, and is thus irrelevant for the Crimean Tatars in question.
The possible reasons for the deportation were also listed in the "Modern views and legacy" section.
I would urge you to try to find relevant, valid, verifiable English language sources on some of these recent claims, before adding some of the last ones.--Seiya (talk) 07:00, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

• @Seiya:

first, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that this article is NOT your own one, no matter how great or important your contributions to it were, that's why you cannot remove all the information added to the article you don't like.

second, as far as I know, there are no documents by National Movement of Crimean Tatars translated to English, thus I have to use their Russian version. Information of National Movement of Crimean Tatars can't be deleted due to the fact that this is the only source by Crimean Tatars, and I have given their position as one of several, not as the most truthful or sth

third, I would also like to emphasize that using sources in Russian is not forbidden on ENwiki

I don't understand what the sentence is question is saying. What is the difference, the major twist of it?. The main difference of these two is that in the second quote this part -Due to the proposed eviction of the Balkars from the North Caucasus - shows that Beria and NKVD got acquainted with the facts of collaboration ONLY AFTER proposal by Stalin of deportation them. This means that soviet authorities first of all decided which peoples had to be deported from their homeland and only then the facts of collaboration by were checked by NKVD. So, shortly, 1. They decide which peoples should be deported. 2. They check "the behavior" of the peoples during the Second world war. Is it clear? This also means that the collaboration was not the reason for deportations in the USSR. There were collaborators among each and every people of the USSR, but only some of them were proposed to the deportation

Taking into account everything mentioned above, I return my changes - Devlet Geray (talk) 08:14, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

I am glad if someone else improves and expands an article I wrote (or greatly helped to write). I wouldn't mind if it goes all the way to the FA. But these edits do not seem to be an improvement.

My problem: I don't speak Russian, and thus I cannot verify any of the new Russian sources. It makes sense to add non-English sources in an article if there are none in English. However, there are pleanty of English sources for this topic, and thus it should not be a problem to find ones for certain new claims. The figure of 423,100, for instance, it just cannot stand. I could not find any English scholars or historians who corroborate this figure. It seems to be just an inflation or an exaggeration. How can it then be used as credible? Based on what data?

Back to the Balkars case. It is still irrelevant for the Crimean Tatars. Even if we get to the consensus that Beria and NKVD got acquainted with their alleged collaboration after Stalin's proposed eviction, we cannot say that Stalin himself did not consider of the alleged collaboration first, before he proposed eviction. At any rate, one should take a different approach, the one in the text, with several scholars and historians poking holes at Stalin's pointless excuse for the deportation, regardless of what his circle was saying.

I again urge you to not hastily insert anything which might seem dubious or questioning NPOV. I honestly think these recent changes, and their wording, are highly problematic. Please, try to discuss any new Russian sources here on the talk page, and we shall try to get to a consensus on whether we can add them in the article, or in with what kind of wording.--Seiya (talk) 08:37, 16 May 2019 (UTC)