Talk:China

The Russian ruble is accepted as valid tender in Suifenhe, China

Chinese government allows to use both the Russian ruble and the yuan, in Suifenhe, China as a legal tender. It is the first time in the history of PRC when the usage of a foreign currency as a payment for goods and services is allowed on its territory. I suggest to add the Russian ruble to the list of currencies along with the yuan in the same fashion as it's done for Panama and US dollar, but with a footnote that its usage is only allowed in a certain region. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.52.141.26 (talk • contribs) 11:24, November 26, 2014

both nominal total GDP and purchasing power parity

China is number one by both nominal total GDP and purchasing power parity not number two. Please edit ????. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swax2 (talk • contribs) 16:44, December 19, 2014

Socialist state

So I'm going to bring this up again. China IS NOT a socialist state, nor a communist one, but a state capitalist one. This is universally agreed by all capitalists and anti-catpailists. China revolves around Maoism, which is a derivative of Marxism-Leninism, which is universally accepted to be state capitalism. It seems previously this was agreed within the achieves, but the article no longer goes along with the talk page consensus. DocHeuh (talk) 02:28, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

• @Heuh0:However, sir, at least, the CPC thinks the PRC is a socialist state.-- パンツァー VI-II ❂Fu7ラジオ❂In the Republic of China 103rd.民國103年 05:03, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

That doesn't make it true, that just means they want to be initially perceived as a socialist state. DocHeuh (talk) 15:15, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

@Heuho: Officially China has a socialist political system, but a system of diverse forms of ownership (or put it more bluntly, non-socialist forms of ownership). The CPC's policy is that the state sector (read; socialist sector) should dominate and guide the rest of the economy. This they refer to as the primary stage of socialism.... And another note, "China revolves around Maoism, which is a derivative of Marxism-Leninism, which is universally accepted to be state capitalism", this is highly biased. From a Trotskyist (and other currents too) perspective Marxism–Leninism is state capitalism, but Liberal Western observers mostly equate Marxism–Leninism with anti-capitalism. --TIAYN (talk) 16:16, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

• How about calling it a de jure socialist state? Alex Mattrick | ゆうせい 04:50, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
  • @Alexlur: Because saying that sounds like its not a socialist state at all, and it sounds like the rulers have no socialist intentions at all ... --TIAYN (talk) 07:11, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
    • @Trust Is All You Need: Good point, what about “it describes itself as a socialist state”? Alex Mattrick | ゆうせい 06:18, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Organ harvesting

I think this should be mentioned in article, and Ethan Gutmanns estimate of 65,000 being killed, because it is objective information about numbers killed. For other types of persecution in China (for FG anyway) its unclear how many have been killed. The number killed shows how big the problem is. (talk) 01:39, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Aaabbb11 - thank you for trying to discuss. I'm open to a possible compromise, but I'm not sure you'll be entirely satisfied with my proposal. I suggest adding, at the end of the sentence on Falun Gong, another short line to the effect of "In addition, some researchers estimate that tens of thousands of Falun Gong adherents, Uyghurs, and prisoners may have been killed to supply a trade in human organs." That's pretty close to my maximum position, personally. In a more focused article Ethan Gutmann's findings could be included, but I'm not comfortable singling out a single researcher here. I'm also wary of the false precision involved in citing that number, as Gutmann himself supplies a pretty large estimate range, with 65,000 being the median.Keihatsu ^talk 02:42, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Of the three key organ harvesting investigators David Matas, David Kilgour) and Gutmann, Gutmann is the only one to estimate the numbers killed. Gutmann doesn't have to be mentioned, but his estimate was published by Prometheus Books. Two independent reviews of his 2014 book published 65,000 from 2000 to 2008. While in an interview with the Toronto Star he stated, "The number of casualties is close to 100,000."Q&A: Author and analyst Ethan Gutmann discusses China’s illegal organ trade. Gutmanns's guesstimate of Tibetans, Uyghurs and House Christians killed was 2,000 to 4,000.

But I think its important to mention that 5 leaders were indicted for genocide because that is objective information, which makes the situation quite clear. I'm OK with tens of thousands killed if 5 leaders being indicted for genocide is mentioned. Sure things have be kept very brief in an article like this but I can see less important info that could easily be deleted.Aaabbb11 (talk) 04:04, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm afraid I just don't agree with you on the genocide issue. It can be mentioned on those respective officials' pages and pages about Falun Gong where appropriate, but it's undue weight here. If there were actual findings of guilt, I might reconsider, but with indictments alone I don't see a compelling case. And it does not seem that you've convinced other editors either.Keihatsu ^talk 04:55, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

The campaign against FG began in 1996 with banning FG books. So no need to mention, "large-scale demonstration in Beijing", which was probably a peaceful gathering see Falun Gong. When you gather in large numbers no need to demonstrate. Numbers is all that's needed.

Kilgour and Matas stated, "we believe that there has been and continues today to be large scale organ seizures from unwilling Falun Gong practitioners". And there's no "may" or Uighurs in their conclusions and only have Falun Gong prisoners of conscience [1] No need to mention "trade in human organs". 70 million practitioners should also be mentioned, because it shows how popular Falun Gong had become. I think it should be worded like this

Falun Gong was first taught publicly in 1992. In 1999, when there were 70 million practitioners, the Communist Party launched a campaign to eliminate Falun Gong, resulting in mass arrests, extralegal detention, and reports of torture and deaths in custody.[212][213] Kilgour, Matas and Gutmann believe that tens of thousands of practitioners, were killed for their organs.[214][215]

and remove the Communist Party to shorten it further...

Falun Gong was first taught publicly in 1992. In 1999, when there were 70 million practitioners, the persecution of Falun Gong began, resulting in mass arrests, extralegal detention, and reports of torture and deaths in custody.[212][213] Kilgour, Matas and Gutmann believe that tens of thousands of practitioners, were killed for their organs.[214][215]

This reference can be used for 70 million

These references should be used so the reader can read more if they are interested. This ref from The Toronto Star should be used as it doesn't limit the time frame to 2000 to 2008. Gutmann states, "the number of casualties is close to 100,000." This ref should be included because it quotes from Ethan Gutmanns 2014 book and provides estimates of Falun Gong in the Laogai system. Aaabbb11 (talk) 09:48, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

In order to include Guttman's views, we need to show (1) the degree of acceptance of his views among experts and (2) that have prominence in books about China. Neither of that has been done yet. His claims are so shocking that one would expect mainstream sources would comment on them if they had any merit. TFD (talk) 01:43, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Larry Getlen, "China’s long history of harvesting organs from living political foes", New York Post, 9 August 2014

Barbara Turnbull (21 October 2014) "Q&A: Author and analyst Ethan Gutmann discusses China’s illegal organ trade", The Toronto Star

Mainstream newspapers seem to shy away from this issue. I'm not aware of a truly independent source in English for 5 leaders being indicted for genocide in Spain. In Spanish there is one. Aaabbb11 (talk) 02:49, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

If Gutmann's views are widely ignored in the mainstream, then weight requires us to ignore them too. The Star btw is widely respected, but it only mentions the book in the book section. What we would want to see is academic papers discussing the issue. China has political prisoners and has sold organs from executed criminals. There are unconfirmed reports they take organs from living prisoners. But Gutmann's claims go beyond that. TFD (talk) 03:34, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Jay Nordlinger (25 August 2014) "Face The Slaughter: The Slaughter: Mass Killings, Organ Harvesting, and China’s Secret Solution to Its Dissident Problem, by Ethan Gutmann", National Review

Viv Young (11 August 2014) "The Slaughter: Mass Killings, Organ Harvesting, and China’s Secret Solution to Its Dissident Problem", New York Journal of Books

Gutmann's estimates aren't shocking. Kilgour and Matas published estimates in 2006. Their work is referenced and accepted. Gutmann's estimates have been on the internet for years. Aaabbb11 (talk) 04:00, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

But their conclusions are not accepted either. It's a "walled garden", a small number of writers whose studies receive attention almost exclusively in opinion pieces in mostly right-wing media and Falun Gong's own publications. For example in The International Trafficking of Human Organs, Falun Gong is mentioned only in passing and it says they have "allegedly been targeted." TFD (talk) 14:51, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Trafficking isn't necessarily the same as harvesting. Its common for transplant professionals and others to refer to the Kilgour–Matas report. On the US National Library of Medicine site there are 4 articles that reference or mention it.

On annual Congressional-Executive Commission on China reports, its mentioned or referenced - 2006 report 3 times, 2007 report twice, 2009 report twice, and 2012 report once.

The Government of China attempted to rebut both versions of the report at organharvestinvestigation.net Aaabbb11 (talk) 09:48, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

The point is that what you find so essential to this article receives almost no coverage anywhere else. Per Balancing aspects, the article should include what sources consider important, not what you do. TFD (talk) 15:05, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Peter Murtagh, "China ‘murdering Falun Gong members for organ harvesting’", Irish Times, 11 July 2013

Thomas Nelson (Fall 2014) "The Slaughter: Mass Killings, Organ Harvestings, and China’s Secret Solution to Its Dissident Problem by Ethan Gutmann A Review", International Affairs Review

Gutmann's articles are published in the World Affairs Journal, The Weekly Standard and elsewhere. His estimate of 65,000 was published in the book State Organs. Google 65,000 Falun Gong and its says "about 104,000 results".

Many medical professionals believe that organ harvesting of Falun Gong is happening. Dr. Gabriel Danovitch, Professor of Medicine, Arthur Caplan, Professor of Bioethics, Dr. Jacob Lavee, cardiothoracic surgeon, Dr. Ghazali Ahmad, Professor Maria Fiatarone Singh and Dr. Torsten Trey, wrote essays for State Organs.

Transplant doctor Henkie P. Tan stated, "Everybody, any transplant position, any transplant personnel is against this. This should never have happen. We're surprised this is happening. There's no doubt about it. It should just never happen. It should be stopped." Aaabbb11 (talk) 22:26, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

There are two negative reports of the NZ government and the US department of State for Falun Gong supporters and Kilgour-Matas report: [2] [3] Wikipedia is NOT a propaganda tool of anybody, including Falun Gong.小梨花 (talk) 03:08, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

@小梨花: The new article Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China is now being reviewed for DYK (see nomination page), and editors have raised neutrality and other issues with it. I don't know much about FLG and its controversies, but if you're familiar with it, you may wish to comment at the nomination page. -Zanhe (talk) 22:20, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

@小梨花:

I think you should be aware of this.

In March 2006, The Epoch Times published the allegations of three Chinese individuals who said that thousands of Falun Gong practitioners had been killed to supply China's organ transplant industry, including a doctor, said who said there were 36 concentration camps all over China.

The information provided by the 3rd allegation http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-3-31/39910.html is interesting. It states "It takes no more than a day to transfer 5,000 people in a closed freight train on a special route. I have witnessed a specially dispatched freight train transferring over 7,000 people in one trip from Tianjin to the Jilin area."

So US representatives visiting one site and finding no evidence of organ harvesting as shown in this 16 April 2006 article http://iipdigital.ait.org.tw/st/english/texttrans/2006/04/20060416141157uhyggep0.5443231.html#axzz3kfKr3ebz does not prove that organ harvesting is not happening in China.

The Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee of the New Zealand government in November 2013 claimed "Neither committee members nor the Government are aware of any independent evidence verifying the Falun Gong claims on organ harvesting." as you can see on the last page of this report http://www.parliament.nz/resource/en-nz/50DBSCH_SCR6012_1/8254a6b4c6aaae0d848a465615b7b3bf71752f9a

But the only piece of evidence they list is the "significant US State Department investigation", presumably from 16 April 2006 (no references provided) which is not significant because it predates the first Kilgour–Matas report which was released in July 2006. There have been 3 books about organ harvesting in China published in 2009, 2012 and 2014 that you will not be able to buy in China.

You should also be aware of the New Zealand China Free Trade Agreement which is the first free trade agreement that China has signed with any developed country, and New Zealand's largest trade deal since 1983. The New Zealand government is not known for its moral values and is pro business as evidenced voting to keep the legal drinking age at 18 despite drinking related problems in NZ. Because the relatively small NZ economy (population of NZ 4.6 million) is heavily dependent on exports it is not surprising that the NZ government would not want to upset the Communist Party of China by finding evidence of organ harvesting in China.

So the organ harvesting information should be reinstated. Aaabbb11 (talk) 18:19, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

You saying that the Kilgour–Matas report is naturally neutral without support from an official third party because NZ government would not want to upset the Communist Party of China? So what evidence indicate that the these governments made this deal and Kilgour & Matas have no any backstage supporter? This is just a conspiracy theory and the word "killed for their organs" is still a controversial legend.小梨花 (talk) 23:10, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

@小梨花:

The Kilgour–Matas report at organharvesting.net is a reliable source.

On annual Congressional-Executive Commission on China reports, its mentioned or referenced - 2006 report 3 times, 2007 report twice, 2009 report twice, and 2012 report once.

You claim this there is a negative report from the NZ Government http://www.parliament.nz/resource/en-nz/50DBSCH_SCR6012_1/8254a6b4c6aaae0d848a465615b7b3bf71752f9a when its a Falun Gong petition that wasn't supported by the NZ government that has no references at all. So no credibility either in my opinion.

The 16 April 2006 US report isn't mentioned on Falun Gong#Organ harvesting or Persecution of Falun Gong#Organ harvesting because wikipedia is Wikipedia:Summary Style and the US report is an early report that's not important as officials on only visited one site.

I suggest you read Falun Gong#Organ harvesting or Persecution of Falun Gong#Organ harvesting or the 3 books published about organ harvesting in China.

The New Zealand–China Free Trade Agreement is on wikipedia and has 15 references. I can assure you that it is real. Aaabbb11 (talk) 17:04, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I mean that you said that the New Zealand–China Free Trade Agreement is an evidence that NZ government made false for the CPC, however that is your conspiracy theory, a tendentious speculation.小梨花 (talk) 17:32, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

A lot of persecution of Falun Gong is internationally recognized as mentioned in the current article, but in my personal opinion the Kilgour–Matas report is not suitable for this article for the above reason, and there are other important issues of the PRC could be added, such as Islamic extremism in Xinjiang, excessively long paragraph should also be avoided. BTW the FLG itself is a controversial organization.小梨花 (talk) 18:03, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I might add, you said “Kilgour, Matas and Gutmann believe what what” in the article. If we have to talk about "somebodies BELIEVE something", “somebodies don't believe it" should also be mentioned for neutrality, especially when disbeliefs are besed on investigations, furthermore “believe sth. or no” is not accord with the standard of this encyclopedia. While an appropriate length is also important as this article is a geography and places good article. In addition, The Epoch Times belongs to the FLG itself, when one testify for oneself, the probative force is really weak, that's also why I don't even mention Chinese official position.小梨花 (talk) 13:45, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

@小梨花:

On 28 August you deleted important human rights information about organ harvesting in China that was added to this article on 27 April after a discussion involving 3 editors that ended on 7 April.

There is now even an article titled Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China with 111 references that is likely to be expanded. On 30 August 2015 you made a comment on Template:Did you know nominations/Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China using the same "reports" which are not significant. You stated,

"I don’t really care about this, but I have noticed that the neutrality of Kilgour-Matas report is suspicious for it has been denyed by the reports of the NZ government and the US department of State. [1] [2] but these reports have been ignored."

The TheBlueCanoe responded to you the same day, but you have yet to respond. If you do care about organ harvesting I suggest you make comments on that page, which seems to be the appropriate place for an in depth discussion about organ harvesting in China. What you have done to the China article amounts to disruptive editing and the organ harvesting information that you deleted based on your opinion should be reinstated.

David Matas, David Kilgour and Ethan Gutmann are the three key investigators and authors of organ harvesting in China. Gutmann is a China watcher who spent about 7 years compiling the information for his 2014 book. He has testified before the U.S. Congress, the U.S. House Committee on Foreign Affairs, the European Parliament and the United Nations. Kilgour and Matas have visited many countries raising awareness of organ harvesting in China and gained more information while doing so. So its more than just a case of believing.

The 27 April 2015 version of China does not mention or use Epoch Times as a reference. ‎Aaabbb11 (talk) 17:43, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

In order to add it you need not merely show that it has been reported in reliable sources but that it is considered to be significant in reliable sources about China. China is in the news every day, yet there is little if any mention of organ harvesting. TFD (talk) 18:41, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Neither committee members nor the Government are aware of any independent evidence verifying the Falun Gong claims on organ harvesting. This conclusion is based on both New Zealand and foreign inquiries. New Zealand officials discussed the allegations with Kilgour and Matas; the office of the United Nations Special Rapporteur on torture; human rights non-governmental organisations; and other countries interested in the human rights situation in China. Other international organisations also attempted to verify whether the claims on organ harvesting made in the Kilgour/Matas report had substance. This included a significant US State Department investigation that concluded that there was no evidence of the practice. Officials are not aware of any independent assessment that supports the Falun Gong’s claims of forced organ harvesting.

This paragraph is excerpted from the report Petition 2011/84 of Sam Fang on behalf of the Falun Gong Association Incorporated (21 November 2013)(as reported by the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee) as one of the strong enough opposition views of NHK, Rambodoc, the article Inside China's 'crematorium' of The Ottawa Citizen and many others, the Kilgour-Matas report has not been considered as an independent assessment. The neutrality is a pillar of wikipedia, presumption of innocence is an important principle to keep it. It is not proper to propagate an unilateral view in a good article.

I mentioned the Epoch Times because you tried to use it to prove your point on this page.小梨花 (talk) 05:45, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

So far 3 books on Organ Harvesting in China have been published. Publishers aren't keen to wreck their reputations or lose money by publishing misleading information. You can google "live organ harvesting" and see articles like China’s long history of harvesting organs from living political foes from http://nypost.com

But on the Communist Party's US Embassy topic page http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/zt/ the topics of Falun Gong and organ harvesting are absent. Aaabbb11 (talk) 13:42, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

I've reverted your addition of the info. As per The Four Deuces and other users above, adding a controversial report that's received little coverage from mainstream media to this article is WP:UNDUE. -Zanhe (talk) 19:24, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

@Zanhe

1. Since 23 September 2014 User:小梨花|小梨花 has only made about 14 edits to other articles or talk pages other than China. So getting close to a single article editor.

2. You and 小梨花|小梨花 have deleted organ harvesting information not a report. To claim it is a report is disruptive editing.

3. Human rights in China#Organ harvesting has more detailed information. One solution is to copy the most important information from that section. There is no need for a completely fresh debate on this page. Aaabbb11 (talk) 23:07, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

@Zanhe

You seem to being doing a very large number of edits to China related articles. So you may be a single purpose account. I note that on 21 September in 10 minutes you deleted more than 50,000 bytes of the Terrorism in China article and the number of references dropped from 220 to 122.

I see no reason not to put the sentence about organ harvesting information back in as your editing seems highly suspect. Maybe your editing should be investigated.

The sentence was "Kilgour, Matas and Gutmann believe that tens of thousands of practitioners, were killed for their organs.[226][227][228]" Aaabbb11 (talk) 14:08, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

References

Sociopolitical issues, human rights and reform

I can see no reason why 2 topics are combined here - human rights and politics. Aaabbb11 (talk) 01:50, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Do you really need to start a second level header for every single post here? --benlisquare_T•C•E 02:38, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

At the very least, there's meatpuppetry going on between Aaabbb11 and an old group of topic-banned pro-FLG editors including User:HappyInGeneral and User:Asdfg12345 - based on a specific pattern of behaviour I suspect, beyond meatpuppetry, Aaabbb11 is a sockpuppet of Asdfg12345 and have requested an investigation into this matter. Simonm223 (talk) 13:25, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Looks you 2 don't have any problem with what I'm proposing, which is to split the topic into 2. Both off topic (Simonm223 you are wasting people's time) Aaabbb11 (talk) 23:02, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Consensus from silence is not a valid argument on your part. You need to gain consensus, not assume consensus. Choosing to not put up with your shenanigans until you can learn to use talk pages properly does not equate to conceding to you. Also, you haven't even given it one day - are you for real? --benlisquare_T•C•E 02:11, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

For the record I categorically disagree with the inclusion of any additional Falun Gong content on the China page and will continue to do so until I say otherwise. I feel no need to beat a dead horse and pop on every five minutes just to say, "No, WP:DUE" again. Simonm223 (talk) 14:47, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Socialist? Really? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.72.162.235 (talk) 10:42, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I think this section should be renamed Human Rights. Info not relating to human rights should be moved to the appropriate section. Aaabbb11 (talk) 20:55, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

RfC on removal of native state names from article lead sentences

There was an RfC opened that might affect tens of articles, including this one. Your opinions would be welcome. “WarKosign” 05:43, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

The Chinese style guide deprecates native names in article leads as they can go in the {{Chinese}} infobox, which should have been the case here, and is now.  Philg88 ^♦talk 07:11, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 June 2015

Imagineayacht (talk) 23:54, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Yulin Dog Meat Festival in GuangXi China

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Stickee (talk) 01:30, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

President of CHINA IS SOLOMON FHANTOM — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.153.3.27 (talk) 11:02, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Genocide

There is a discussion taking place at Talk:Persecution_of_Falun_Gong#Genocide that people editing this page might be interested in. Aaabbb11 (talk) 20:53, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Chinese Military

The section on the military needs updating periodically and I agree that global perspective must be maintained. I added a C-Span program (http://www.c-span.org/video/?327492-5/washington-journal-mark-perry-us-military-approach-toward-china) on the topic but it was reverted because it was 'undue' and from a USA perspective. See http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/6/10/china-military-conducts-drills-near-taiwan-philippines.html for international perspective. Note this telling sentence:

China has ramped up defense spending to modernize its forces, which are the world's largest and are gaining experience in operating far from its coast.In a defense strategy paper last month, China vowed to continue growing its “open seas protection,” ...

The current text of the section contains amble evidence of the Air & sea denial advances in Chinese weaponry which my modest update confirms.

In addition see: http://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2015/04/anti-accessarea-denial-isnt-just-asia-anymore/109108/Church of the Rain (talk) 03:44, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

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Move contents about political divisions and territory disputes in the introduction to dedicated chapters?

Those contents are meaningful, but not enough for the first paragraph really. A vote maybe? --SilAshkenazi (talk) 02:33, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree that that part should be removed or trimmed.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 04:26, 18 September 2015 (UTC)