Talk:Climatic Research Unit email controversy

Press coverage

It's time for this issue to be decided. This page can optionally include a template that lists any interesting press coverage the article receives. For some weeks now, certain editors (notably Nsaa) have been trying to get anti-Wikipedia/anti-article press coverage included in this talk page, presumably to make some sort of point. Examples include:

• Lawrence Solomon - laying out his conspiracy theory that Google and Wikipedia have colluded to offer only a censored, sanitized version of the CRU story.
• James Delingpole - complains about sanitized version of "the greatest scientific scandal of the modern age." (Hidden in the template by Nsaa by using HTML comments)

There is no policy or guideline that requires this template; furthermore, WP:PRESS appears to encourage positive press coverage, rather than negative. Likewise, there is no policy or guideline that prohibits this template either. Its inclusion or exclusion is determined by consensus. So let's have at it. Do we support or oppose this inclusion? -- Scjessey (talk) 16:47, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Scjessey does not phrase his question fairly. The inclusion of the press template is not equivalent to the inclusion of links to Delingpole and Solomon. The press template would contain links to all relevant press coverage. We must, surely, be in favour of that? What are you opposers afraid of? That the newspapers of the world disagree with WP? Surely that cannot be the case as we are not arbiters of the truth. We merely reflect the WP:RSs, we are not in the business of hiding them from our readers. Paul Beardsell (talk) 00:55, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Paul on this. He also forgot to mention this Talk:Climatic_Research_Unit_hacking_incident/Archive_20#Pressmulti_-_removal_of_a_piece_with_millions_of_readers.3F_-_Climategate:_the_corruption_of_Wikipedia. And why the BLP issue is just raised again and again is beound my understanding. Please first read this Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive77#Talk:Climatic_Research_Unit_e-mail_hacking_incident where Delingspoles article was raised at WP:BLPN. Nsaa (talk) 08:43, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

These are utterly worthless opinion pieces filled with inaccuracy and stuff they just made up. No reason to give them another platform, and we aren't obliged to. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:41, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Once again, having a press section is not equivalent to including references to "utterly worthless opinion pieces". What we are "obliged" to do and not to do is not a matter for dictat by you or, at least, it should not be. The press coverage is very obviously a consequence of the "hacking" incident and should be covered. We should include it and criticisms of it, we should not censor. Paul Beardsell (talk) 22:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

---

• Oppose -- Scjessey (talk) 16:47, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support. Whitewashing what commentators have to say about the state of play on Wikipedia with regards to climate change is not a good idea. And to quote from WP:PRESS, "The template {{press}} may also be used to document mention of specific articles on their talk page." The real "support/oppose" should be held with consensus necessary to NOT include it on the talkpage. Scottaka UnitAnode 16:52, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

  That is, of course, nonsense. The default position is exclusion (otherwise it would be built in to ALL article talk pages); therefore, you must seek consensus before inclusion. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:57, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

  No, it's not, of course, nonsense. There is no "default position" regarding this template. It's my understanding that if WP articles receive media coverage, this template can be placed to note that coverage. Without strong reasons for exclusion, there shouldn't be any problem with including it. And there are not strong reasons for excluding it in this case. Scottaka UnitAnode 17:03, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

  LOL. You don't think an opinion piece by a climate skeptic that claims Google is colluding with Wikipedia to censor the skeptical view isn't a strong enough reason for exclusion? WP:FRINGE, anybody? -- Scjessey (talk) 17:09, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose presenting as press coverage an incidental mention in a blog on Google, and another blog post with blp issues. . . dave souza, talk 17:02, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

  Not "incidental mention" at all. Why would you characterize it as such? Scottaka UnitAnode 17:03, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose -- I don't think there is any question that including this material would violate WP:BLP#External_links. That being said, I will reiterate that we should redouble efforts to write a dispassionate, scrupulously NPOV article that would not present such low hanging fruit to those seeking to discredit WP. JPatterson (talk) 17:11, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Per a question raised by Sphilbrick on my user talk page, it sould be noted that WP:BLP applies to all pages including article talk pages which are explicitly mentioned. JPatterson (talk) 17:49, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support - I don't see anything in WP:PRESS suggesting a preference for positive coverage. If there is, I'll lobby to change the policy. While we ought to include coverage both positive and negative, we ought to be scrupulous about including negative, to mitigate any perception we are slanted. SPhilbrickT 17:36, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• Clarification - I hadn't recently read the Delipole rant at the time of my !vote. It doesn't change my answer in general, but I'm fine with not including that one.SPhilbrickT 19:57, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• Obviously we should not permanently link to articles that are poorly written and poorly researched, even on a talk page. Especially we should not abuse this talk page to publicise fringe opinions such as those of Solomon, Delingpole and the like. --TS 17:48, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support none of us work for the Ministry of Truth so why should we work to promote WP. It is article like these that keep WP objective. Arzel (talk) 17:52, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

  There's nothing objective about the view that Wikipedia and Google are colluding to censor climate skeptics. What possible argument can be made for including that sort of claptrap? -- Scjessey (talk) 17:56, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. (ec) This is another poorly-researched blog by Lawrence Solomon which betrays his continued lack of understanding of basic Wikipedia functions. (He confuses a redirect from the term Climategate to this article with a censorship campaign, and suggests that this article represents some sort of official "Wikipedia-approved version".) As well, the Wikipedia-related 'coverage' in Solomon's blog post is largely confined to a single paragraph near the bottom. This talk page is not an appropriate place to provide a soapbox for someone with a history of posting non-factual anti-Wikipedia blog rants and conspiracy theories. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:02, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support per what Arzel said mark nutley (talk) 18:16, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support ditto 130.232.214.10 (talk) 18:24, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support per what Arzel said. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 18:53, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose These are opinion articles with agendas, and while i agree that we should mention both positive and negative reviews, we shouldn't use references that would normally be sub-par, and not merit inclusion in general articles. Literary reviews: Great, General articles: Great, Op-eds by political partisans (no matter what side): No. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:56, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Comment - I read through WP:PRESS and can find nothing to support a preference for positive coverage. Indeed, if Wikipedia's articles on global warming are biased, then the correct course of action is to fix them, not deny the problem exists. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:24, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

  This is the second comment of this nature. In my original comment, I noted that Wikipedia appears to encourage positive coverage. This was my interpretation of:

  Great quotes from articles that enhance the reputation of Wikipedia should be included in our Trophy box.

  I did not use the word "preference". Needless to say, it is clear that we have no reason to voluntarily include anti-Wikipedia propaganda, especially when it is based on fantasy and/or wrongheadedness. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:39, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

  That sentence is about Trophy box which is completely different than this article's talk page. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:42, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

  No. It's about press coverage (which is what we are talking about). -- Scjessey (talk) 19:46, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

  No, it's about the Trophy box. Obviously wrong arguments aren't helping things. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:54, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

  "Obviously wrong" is the notion that Google is colluding with Wikipedia to censor climate skeptics. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:58, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• Strong oppose, primarily per WP:BLP#External_links, as JPatterson has rightly noted. Additionally, I don't see what value could possibly be provided by linking to two pieces which make claims that we all know, or should know, are blatantly false. Nothing could be achieved by adding those links other than confusing and misinforming visitors to this page. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:01, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

uuuhhh it's easy to forgot... please reread this issue at WP:BLPN where it has been raised. Nsaa (talk) 08:48, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

• Strong oppose, per my past comments on the matter. We're under no obligation to promote error-ridden blog posts and opinion pieces. If they can't bother to check their facts, we shouldn't bother to link to them. Guettarda (talk) 20:14, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support-It will go to show that certain news organizations are watching what we are doing here...I don't see any reason to not recognize the press...they're recognizing us, why not return the favor?Smallman12q (talk) 23:38, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

  This is not "the press". This is opinion pieces by climate skeptics pushing an anti-Wikipedia agenda. World of difference. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:42, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

  Wikipedia attempts to provide a neutral/balanced point of view. Its only fair if we link to those who oppose us as well as to those who support us. On a side note, I only support linking to sources that would qualify under WP:RS...and not all opinion pieces do.Smallman12q (talk) 22:07, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Just for info, these are blogs which fail WP:RS and more specifically WP:SPS as they're blatantly not expert opinion about Wikipedia, as well as them promoting fringe views. . . dave souza, talk 22:26, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support, mainly because, from what I have seen on the AGW pages, I believe Solomon is right.Spoonkymonkey (talk) 23:50, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Have you read the piece? He is obviously very uninformed about WP. Anyone who has edited here could spot any number of errors in his analysis. Also his google analysis is well off the mark I'm afraid. There is no collusion, only a different algorithm for counting and google's is better IMHO. JPatterson (talk) 01:15, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support, but not because I think the criticism is wrong or right. There must not be the perception that we are hiding criticism of WP. It is shameful that we seem determined to ignore criticism. If you really believe this article truly reflects Climategate then you would not be shy of criticism. The problem is that WP is not just opinion-reflecting it is opinion forming. We know this, and this is why some allow the distortions of this article to continue, and why they shield them from criticism. Paul Beardsell (talk) 00:36, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support, primarily because one of the AGW goaltenders decided to "administratively chastise" me on my talk page for some comments that are much more innocuous than those posted above by said defenders of the faith...ipso facto. --Textmatters (talk) 01:17, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support. Despite the rather bizarre representation given by Scjessey of WP:Press and of the contents of the articles. Would the OP mind revising the description of the two articles so as to represent them more fairly?--Heyitspeter (talk) 01:45, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I just made the inclusion. I don't see the harm in mentioning the existence of these articles on the talkpage, and I don't see any way in which a link to these articles can be spun as a WP:BLP violation. However I do think KDP makes a good argument for their exclusion above. I'm down to talk about this. In the meantime, the vote currently reads 11 in favor, 7 against, which suggests we should include them while we do so.--Heyitspeter (talk) 01:56, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

• Strong Support.. Let a thousand flowers bloom. Oiler99 (talk) 06:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
• Strong Support. For the alleged BLP Problem, please read Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive77#Talk:Climatic_Research_Unit_e-mail_hacking_incident Nsaa (talk) 08:48, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support. Since Wikipedia is about verifiability it should be up to the reader to glean what truth they can from all relevant sources. Weakopedia (talk) 10:12, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

  That argument would be fine if either of these sources were in any way relevant. They're just opinion pieces by ideologues. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:26, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. The news media are currently flooded with misinformation on this subject and there is no good reason to provide links to ludicrously wrong articles which if wanted could be found in five seconds with any search engine. Xanthoxyl ^< 14:06, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support. As per the arguments in favor above. HideTheDecline (talk) 21:07, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support inclusion. As editors we are best served by knowing what people are saying about us and our article, whether or not the criticism is fair. This criticism is decidedly unfair. Some people want to know about it nevertheless, and those who don't want to hear about it can choose not read it rather than taking the choice away from the rest of us. Censoring criticism of Wikipedia certainly adds fuel to the fire of those who are crying censorship. The template will only be seen by editors active on the talk page, not by casual visitors reading the article, so it does not serve as a platform to republish the articles. - Wikidemon (talk) 17:50, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

  Please don't throw around words like "censoring" in this context. This is an optional template, and if we allow these lie-filled anti-Wikipedia opinion pieces we will soon be inundated with demands for links to other poorly-written, inaccurate claptrap like these. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:16, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

  I use the term deliberately. If you look at the lede of censorship this squarely fits that definition. Although the term is often misused around here to stand for things that are not censorship, insisting that we cannot take note of articles about Wikipedia on a talk page when we deem them unfair is in fact censorship. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:39, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

  They're not "articles". They are hit pieces filled with inaccuracy - essentially no different from blog rants, and not even "press coverage" in the proper sense of the phrase. If these were proper works of journalism, we wouldn't be having this conversation. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:48, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

  The template is for media coverage of Wikipedia articles. Many editors, myself included, are interested to know what the press is saying about Wikipedia, good bad or indifferent. The fact that some is biased, mean spirited, and factually inaccurate, is also worth knowing, and this template is a convenient way to organize that. In other places we do that - for example, WorldNetDaily's "Wikipedia scrubs Obama eligibility" hit piece is still liked from the Obama talk page. That's good - that piece is part of the history of the article, and you can't really understand the edit history and what happened to the article in March 2009 without knowing about it. Similar thing here, the Delingpole piece was read by tens or hundreds of thousands of readers and, like it or not, it informs what much of the public and even some editors here think. - Wikidemon (talk) 19:03, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support, conditionally. This isn't the article, and I see no harm including them on the talk page, provided they are described accurately, even if that accuracy requires being unflattering. Gamaliel (talk) 18:52, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

  Good idea. I could be persuaded to support inclusion as long as there was no doubt about the motivation and biases of these opinion pieces. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:57, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

  I have no problem with that. We can flag that it's an opinion piece, an opinion piece that some have objected to, or even point to an onwiki discussion of the piece. It would be useful for a reader to see a rebuttal or discussion, as long as we're not heavy-handed about it. - Wikidemon (talk) 19:03, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Bing versus Google

Off-topic discussion about search engines
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Since this has been brought up above as being part of the reason that the Solomon piece can't be linked on this talkpage, I -- gasp! -- actually tested the theory, and searched both for "Climategate." Result: Bing ~51.8 million; Google ~3.7 million. That's far too large a gap to be coincidental. Scottaka UnitAnode 20:04, 15 February 2010 (UTC) What has any of that got to do with the price of carrots cherries? -- Scjessey (talk) 20:08, 15 February 2010 (UTC) Oh, good grief! YOU claimed that Solomon's Bing/Google analysis was basically nothing more than a conspiracy theory. Scottaka UnitAnode 20:13, 15 February 2010 (UTC) Er... no. I didn't say anything about Bing. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:17, 15 February 2010 (UTC) (ec) And this means...what? We know Google pretty much makes up its top-line numbers. How does Bing calculate its top-line numbers? And what's the point of comparing a meaningless number (Google's) with a number of unknown provenance? I don't get the point of this addition. Guettarda (talk) 20:11, 15 February 2010 (UTC) This proves that Google is coluding with wikipedia? Great, I'm a semiregular on my page, I expect my payment in the post ASAP Nil Einne (talk) 20:16, 15 February 2010 (UTC) (e/c)Gasp! And i get the opposite 16.2 million on Google and 1.98 million on Bing.... Whoa they are on to us! Can we please stay on-topic? --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 20:17, 15 February 2010 (UTC) What the hell are you even talking about? Scottaka UnitAnode 20:19, 15 February 2010 (UTC) You've just demonstrated that you have no clue whatsoever about how search engines work. I suggest you take your hypothesis to Conservapedia, where it's more likely to be appreciated. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:20, 15 February 2010 (UTC) I never claimed to know about how search engines work. And I also am not conservative in any way. You'd do well to cut the personal attacks. I mean, "Clueless in Seattle" as an edit summary? It's not even particularly witty. Scottaka UnitAnode 20:24, 15 February 2010 (UTC) ←Oooh! Ask.com has only 339,000 hits for "Climategate", with Wikipedia being the first. Their collusion with Wikipedia must be even worse! -- Scjessey (talk) 20:21, 15 February 2010 (UTC) (ec) Those numbers are estimates, and irrelevant to our article — which is what we're supposed to discuss on this page. Moreover, if you actually try to search through the results (what is hit number 50 million, anyway?) you'll find that neither search engine will serve up results past the first 1000. Quirks in the two estimation algorithms render any large numbers suspect. Applying Solomon's specious reasoning, we find that Google is also attempting to suppress mention of the Bananaphone (500 thousand Ghits compared to nearly 30 million results on Bing: comparison) and the Star Wars Kid (9.6 million Ghits versus 52 million Bings). Is it possible that Bing's algorithm just turns out higher guesstimates for internet memes? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:30, 15 February 2010 (UTC) (EC)It's actually a lot worse then you think. Google gives 93,900 for "irreducible complexity", Bing gives 400k. Google gives 5 million for 'september 11 conspiracy', Bing gives 10 million. 'abortion causes cancer' is 980k on Google, 2.2 million on Bing. Google gives 36 million for terrorism, Bing gives 92 million. 'dinosaurs living together with men' 447k for Google, 1.5 million for Bing. Google gives 25.2k for '"nil einne" is an idiot', Bing gives 124. Is there no end to Google's evilness? P.S. It was rather annoying finding these examples, I suggest you don't bother to try it. Nil Einne (talk) 20:46, 15 February 2010 (UTC) I just read the Solomon article and it should be noted that this discussion is about a distorted view of Solomon's argument. His thesis was NOT that Google returns few hits than Bing and therefore is suppressing Climategate news. Rather, Solomon says that at one point Google returned X number of hits and is now returning Y number of hits where Y is substantially smaller than X. He also says Google's autocomplete feature has changed during this time frame. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:51, 15 February 2010 (UTC) I wouldn't be surprised if Google has been updating their autocomplete feature. While often useful and on point, its output is sometimes quirky and occasionally downright hilarious. (There's even a website dedicated to its more bizarre output: [6].) I also note that, as of this minute, entering 'c-l' is sufficient to get 'climategate' as an autocomplete suggestion; by the time I type 'c-l-i-m' it's the top autocomplete term. As for changes in the apparent numbers of Ghits with time — that's entirely cosmetic algorithm tweaking. Neither site (Google or Bing) will allow you to retrieve more than the first thousand hits, so any number greater than that is pretty cosmetic. Solomon, frankly, doesn't know what he's talking about here, and he's abusing numbers that he doesn't understand to give a gloss of credibility to a very thin conspiracy theory. This is not a new approach for him. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:09, 15 February 2010 (UTC) (EC) Not that whatever evils Google has are particularly relevant to the issue at hand anyway but even so most of the points are still somewhat relevant, Google changing their guesstimate doesn't really tell us much, it could be simply that during the initial stage of a rapidly developing event, the Google algorithm is generous since it's trying to extrapolate from a small number but resonable percentage of recent samples that suddenly use the term. And the changing, up or down could almost definitely be shown for other search terms (particularly developing ones and memes) if people could be bothered to monitor them. In other words, the crux of the issue, the fact that the number of guessed results went down doesn't tell us much remains true. It's not even clear what Bing did. As for the autocomplete thing, that seems to have gone back and forth, but at least for me, it's working now. Again, it wouldn't surprise me if you found something similar with other search terms if anyone bothered to monitor them. P.S. It's perhaps worth remembering how inaccurate the guesstimates are. Google gave me 25.2k for '"nil einne" is an idiot' because it thought there were 25.2k results for "nil einne" and basically ignored the idiot part. However there are only 302 when you go to the end of the results. And Google nor Bing will ever give more then 1000 results anyway so anything more then that is a somewhat moot point. Nil Einne (talk) 21:15, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Further discussion

Also, unless I missed something, Solomon's article alleges no conspiracy between Google and Wikipedia. Where Scjessey got that idea from, I have no idea. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:53, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I noticed this from before my first comment but admit didn't comment on it since Scott didn't seem to either. Solomon's article is really concentrating on the 'Google is evil' idea and only mentioned the wikipedia as an aside. He appears to be suggesting that Google is evil and linking to the wikipedia article as part of their campaign to downplay the significance of the controversy. So no, not active collusion rather we're both part of the widespread worldwide group who for whatever reason (money is suggested for Google, none is offered for us) wants to promote global warming and censor any negative information so linking to this evil article benefits the evil Google. However the fact that Google links to the wikipedia first whatever our ultimate name for the article should surprise no one who knows how Google operates and is hardly uncommon (and in fact one of the key concerns for many LPs is our BLPs is the first link for them and in fact it's true for Lawrence Solomon himself). In terms of his actual criticism of our article (whatever you may think of it) while parts of it may be relevant (for the time), other parts show a distinct lack of understanding of wikipedia (like the idea that there's some secret hidden climategate article, there have been forks some of which may still exist but that's different and hardly uncommon as I guess you know). Nil Einne (talk) 21:46, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Here's another article from Solomon we may wish to add to the press section: Climategate rages on at Wikipedi. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:02, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't appear to discuss this article in any way, but rather Wikipedia in general. Maybe we should add it to Talk:Main Page :) Guettarda (talk) 22:19, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I'll get right on it! A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:26, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

What about the BLP issue

Could those who expressed support above please comment here on why they think inclusion would not violate WP:BLP?JPatterson (talk) 01:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Could you explain how it might? That's not clear to me.--Heyitspeter (talk) 01:38, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, here's a couple of on point excerpts from the policy. Bolding for the most part mine.

• This policy applies equally to biographies of living persons and to information about living persons on other pages. The burden of evidence for any edit on Wikipedia rests with the person who adds or restores material. Therefore, an editor should be able to demonstrate that it complies with all Wikipedia content policies and guidelines.

So that says the BLP rules apply to the inclusion you support, including this one

• External links in biographies of living persons must be of high quality and are judged by a stricter standard than for other articles. Do not link to websites that contradict the spirit of this policy or that are not fully compliant with our guideline on external links.[4]

I think the articles in question fail the above

• Avoid repeating gossip. Ask yourself whether the source is reliable; whether the material is being presented as true; ...

..and I know the information re edit counts is not true so it fails this as well.

• and whether, even if true, it is relevant to an encyclopedia article about the subject.

I don't see the relevance of this on the talk page. As you know, I am no fan of the high handedness of certain editors in this debate but policy is policy. I try and apply it evenly knowing that hypocrisy always comes back to bite you in the ass. JPatterson (talk) 02:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure these quotes clearly apply, but I found the explicitly relevant section: WP:ELBLP. It's still sketchy for me, but you may be right, and have my blessing to remove it if you feel (more or less strongly) inclined. I haven't looked at the above vote in awhile though so I suppose check for consensus.--Heyitspeter (talk) 08:54, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Please read Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive77#Talk:Climatic_Research_Unit_e-mail_hacking_incident. It's incredible that this issue again is raised... Nsaa (talk) 12:57, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok I've read it. I don't see how it makes your case. It ends with a request for specific provisions of policy it would violate which I've provided above. HiP in addition points to WP:ELBLP. Please respond to those specific elements rather than pointing to an inconclusive RfC. Remember, per BLP, the onus for proving the inclusion does not violate policy rests with you. JPatterson (talk) 14:05, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Fine. Then I will refute this here.

• Agree on the first point JPatterson makes above (isn't it obvious?) "and to information about living persons on other pages". Both of the given references do not break any (talk) page policies for inclusion.
• Second point "Avoid repeating gossip": Yes the content is WP:RS at least as long as we say that it's from whom. If we should have this policy on every talk page on Wikiepdia, we have a big job to do, cleaning it up... (I.e. requiring that every external link on every blp-related talk page is WP:RS - just searching for blogs like Delingspole at the telegraph gives over 500 hits[7] and blogs like Soloms gives over 750 [8])
• Third point "and whether, even if true, it is relevant to an encyclopedia article about the subject.". Yes it is extremely relevant both for the article and Wikipedia as a project in itself. We have at least one main editor that is extremely closely related (appears in the leaked emails, has been at the blog RealClimate) to the part accused of wrongdoings. That he [9]William M. Connolley (→Rv: why: soap: no) (in what possible way is the pressmulti inclusion WP:SOAP?) and some of others seems to want this out with what I see as any meansDave souza (unreliable gossip blogs not press coverage, blp as discussion)Hipocrite (Undid revision 344582634 by Nsaa (talk) - Not aceptable use of pressmulti.) for just the two latest) is extremely disturbing.

Nsaa (talk) 11:04, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Above you skipped my second point which is rather crucial. To what you called my second point (which is actually the third), you avoid the central issue which is truth. How can you in good conscience argue for the inclusion of something we all know is not true? My contribution to WP is listed at 1650 live edits to 92 unique articles in a month and a half. This vastly overstates my meager contribution to the project thus far. And to contend that I somehow control those 92 articles is laughable on its face. Solomon's claims about WMC are equally inflated. To your third point, we need to be clear about terms. The argument is for inclusion on the talk page so the measure of relevance must be how its inclusion would aid discussion about improving the article, because that is the purpose of this page. I don't see how inclusion passes this test of relevance and in fact would argue that it would be counterproductive. I had a little trouble parsing your last point but I think it relates to COI concerns. I raised the same concerns in the proper forum without success. Evidently the community's definition of COI and mine are divergent. Fine, message received. We can't keep fighting the same battles over and over. JPatterson (talk) 14:20, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I've no problem seeing that the Solomon article Delingpole uses have it's problem (like most other sources trying to understand the inner working of Wikipedia). This is not the main problem her. The problem here is that we have a set of two articles that clearly have huge inpact on the general population (Delingpole has millions of readers just one week in December according to the blog editor at telegraph.co.uk). As editors to this article it's really helpful to get this background information.

Let me quote what I wrote in an prior discussion about this "Again you call other living peoples writings rubbish. Please don't. I find the comments made by William Connolley on his blog nice work, and agree with many of his comments. As far as I see it's Solomon[10] who is making the wrongs here, not Delingpole[11] except for this comment "The guy who has been writing Wikipedia’s entry on Climategate (plus 5,000 others relating to “Climate Change”)" in the parentheses (and his article that's the case for this discussion). But this kinds of misunderstandings you find in all kinds of journalism (ex. our discussion about allegedly or not). But thanks for the first reasonable comment given about what's wrong with the (underlying article). Although removals like this one "And here he is again just three days ago, removing a mention of Climategate from Michael Mann’s entry" is not refuted or commented in the blog you give. Nsaa (talk) 07:14, 6 January 2010 (UTC)" in Pressmulti - removal of a piece with millions of readers? - Climategate: the corruption of Wikipedia. Smal errors can you find in most sources, so disregarding it on a talkpage on that ground is ... ehhh... not according to policy. How many of the 500 ([12] / ) other blogs from the Telegraph and 750 ([13]) from National Post should be thrown out of en-wiki ...? Nsaa (talk) 14:41, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the NP is an RS and that Solomon is notable. I also agree with his critique of this article, especially at the time he wrote it. I agree we still have a silly title and a ridiculous amount of emphasis on "the hack". But Solomon doesn't stop there. He goes on with a broadside attack on an LP using an invalid analysis. Do I have issues with WCM's participation on this article? Absolutely, but I do not see how those concerns are mitigated by your proposed inclusion of a piece we all know is untrue. Two wrongs don't make a right, right? JPatterson (talk) 15:01, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

More fuel for Solomon

Only a matter of time before Solomon points his finger toward this for vindication of his ludicrous theory. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:23, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

WP:POINT--Heyitspeter (talk) 18:29, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Climatic Research Unit email and document controversy

This is a petition signed by (currently) 20 editors with highly varied points of view on this article. All support, specifically, a name change to the following:

Climatic Research Unit email and document controversy

If anyone has any objections, feel free to list yourself below. If opposition isn't very strong we should recognize this as consensus and make the change. Note that you don't have to believe that this is the best title for you to be of the opinion that it is better than the current, so please let that temper your decision. Thanks, and happy editing.--Heyitspeter (talk) 04:16, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

The petition is signed by: GoRight, Cla68, ATren, JPatterson, ChrisO, Hipocrite, Arzel, Mark nutley, ChildofMidnight, A Quest For Knowledge, Heyitspeter, Wikispan, SPhilbrickT, JohnWBarber, Oren0, Nsaa, LegitimateAndEvenCompelling, Moogwrench, Paul Beardsell and HideTheDecline.

I also support this. I hope others will, too. --TS 04:25, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

As I said above, yes, I strongly object to conducting canvassed discussions on user pages. I can't imagine how anyone can think this is an acceptable way to carry out a legitimate discussion. Guettarda (talk) 04:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Canvassing isn't categorically discouraged. WP:CANVASS advises against "messages that are written to influence the outcome rather than to improve the quality of a discussion". I don't see these in this case. Do you have an objection to the renaming? If you in fact support it, consider yourself appropriately canvassed by me, here, and add your name to the petition?--Heyitspeter (talk) 05:58, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

And how did you come to that conclusion? Did you look at the pattern of the canvass? Was the basis of his canvass neutral? It doesn't look so, not if you look at the edit history. And I have no intention of participating in a discussion on GoRight's user page. Not after the barrage of insults I got the last time I tried to constructively engage him. Guettarda (talk) 06:24, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I suggest this is a good faith attempt to resolve the widespread dissatisfaction with the article name, and I ask you treat it as such, leaving other grievances aside (for the moment, at least). Paul Beardsell (talk) 22:47, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

As to Oren0's collapse of this section as being under discussion on the RFC page, this is a separate discussion of a proposal that's not included on that page at all. Guettarda (talk) 06:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I think the implication here is unfair. GoRight was encouraged in his effort by the admin trying to heard us cats and in a quick check of the notification GR and others did, I do not see any bias. He pretty much hit all editors who have been active on this page since the beginning on both sides of the issue. I for one appreciate an attempt to gain some momentum -anything that avoids another food fight here. JPatterson (talk) 13:49, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't see how this name change is an improvement, so I oppose this change. Additionally, the place for a discusssion to happen should be here or on the RFC page, rather than the talk page of a user, so as far as I am concerned this hasn't really been discussed yet. Cardamon (talk) 08:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

It is a small step towards a NPOV article. I support it too and have added my name to the list. HideTheDecline (talk) 17:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

This petition was a very bad idea. Regardless of one's opinions on the proposed title itself - personally, I don't think it's that bad - we should all be able to agree that collecting a list of signatures on someone's talk page is not how to get an article renamed. Rename proposals should be made on the talk page of the article itself, and made known to all involved - indeed, this article already has one at Talk:Climatic Research Unit hacking incident/RfC on article name change. I would advise everyone involved with that petition to read the essay Wikipedia:Petitions are considered harmful for why we should generally avoid petitions on Wikipedia - they're a means of circumventing consensus rather than forming it. Robofish (talk) 23:43, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

On the contrary, the off page discussion as to whether a proposal has enough support to bring it here for further discussion is, I think, a very good idea indeed. Your invocation of "considered harmful" is, I think, inappropriate. Certainly there is evidently no attempt to avoid the reaching of a consensus except by those who seem determined to continue to hold, in the face of near universal acceptance (out there, in the real world, and even [lately] at the UEA and the CRU and the IPCC), that the real controversy is much much more than a supposed hacking incident. The problem is the insistence by that same group of WP editors that we discuss that controversy, the one known by everyone(!) as Climategate, must be documented here at WP only at this article, under its currently inappropriate name. It's simple: Either have a name which reflects the subject matter or allow the article to fork into two, one about the dastardly hack [for which a medal should be awarded], and the other about the conduct of the scientists thus revealed. I would happily stay with one article under an appropriate title. Paul Beardsell (talk) 23:01, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Rename discussion on RfC subpage

Based on the initial RfC, I have opened a proposal to rename the article on the RfC subpage. Specifically, it proposes two options: leaving the article name as is or changing it to Climatic Research Unit documents controversy. I have asked that no other names are proposed. Please comment here. Oren0 (talk) 06:04, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

You seem to have jumped the gun. Per discussion, just above the RFC is at "no consensus" and should not be closed as having reached consensus, especially by an involved editor. Guettarda (talk) 06:09, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

You seem to be scrabbling about for reasons for us not to have a discussion which you know will have an outcome you don't like. That's how it looks. I would be pleased to find reason to change my mind. Please engage in the discussion rather than trying to find procedural reasons why we cannot have it. Paul Beardsell (talk) 23:06, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Since RFC asked the question "should be move the page". If it gets consensus, the next stage is to ask "what should be move it to?" Since we haven't gotten consensus on the first part, it's inappropriate to move on to the second part. Guettarda (talk) 06:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

See various responses at the section linked to originally.--Heyitspeter (talk) 08:47, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Rv: why

Crit-of-AR4 doesn't belong [14] William M. Connolley (talk) 08:49, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

This science article from the science website sciencemag.org shows that there is a very strong scientific connection. While I understand why the two articles shouldn't be merged, I do think the inclusion of the "see also" is well justified. Grundle2600 (talk) 10:00, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Maybe I'm blind, but, your article does not seem to mention CRU or the hacked emails. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:09, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Whats up with all of this? No connection? What world are you living in? See this Scandinavia-gate?. Read also this Scandinavian temperatures, IPCC´s "Scandinavia-gate" More evidence that IPCC's claim of global warming in the Scandinavian area is yet another home-made "fact" from IPCC.. All the request from professor Karlen has been revealed in the Climategate emails, see One of the claims in this hacked CRU email saga goes something like “Well, the scientists acted like jerks, but that doesn’t affect the results, it’s still warming.” I got intrigued by one of the hacked CRU emails, from the Phil Jones and Kevin Trenberth to Professor Wibjorn Karlen. In it, Professor Karlen asked some very pointed questions about the CRU and IPCC results. He got incomplete, incorrect and very misleading answers. Here’s the story, complete with pictures. I have labeled the text to make it clear who is speaking, including my comments.. Nsaa (talk) 12:55, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Less of the soapboxing please. hidethedecline.eu isn't a RS for anything. Please bear in mind that this isn't usenet William M. Connolley (talk) 13:15, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

True, I see no evidence of reliability in either of those blogs. Guettarda (talk) 13:22, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

(ec) No, Kintisch's blog post doesn't seem to say anything about the CRU hacking issue. Guettarda (talk) 13:20, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't say anything? No it says nothing about what you care about (the misleading hacking), but says a lot about Climategate. Should we create another article then? And iff you both care to read the actual emails you clearly sees what these blogs pinpoints. Nsaa (talk) 13:34, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

No, you sees, and while you're welcome to put your conspiracy theories on your blog you keep linking, that's not an adequate source for putting your original research on Wikipedia. . . dave souza, talk 13:47, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't see anything in Kintisch's blog post that can be tied to the hacked emails. He appears to be using "Climategate" to refer to the entire issue surrounding the IPCC, which appears to be novel usage. Guettarda (talk) 14:04, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I've noticed a number of reporters starting to use the term "climategate" in a sense far broader than simply the CRU incident. (As an aside, if this becomes commonplace, we'll have even more titling issues to address). ::::::::I agree that none of the items mentioned in this article relate to the CRU article, but they do relate to the article currently titled Criticism of IPCC AR4. Perhaps that is a better place to discuss whether this cite belongs in "see also"? (Although as a blog, it probably doesn't meet RS)--SPhilbrickT 14:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Crossposted with Guettarda - no it's not novel usage, I've seen it many places, but it is not yet the prevailing usage. --SPhilbrickT 14:36, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

(ec) Interesting. If that catches on, we might have to switch the redirect on 'Climategate', or turn it into a dab, pending reliable sources. Great - that'll one more thing to watch people fight over. Guettarda (talk) 14:52, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Clearly, the climategate issue is connected to a general criticism of the IPCC and the AR4 by extension. This is the only article that could be named climategate (for various reasons), and that word is linked to this article. It is logical to assume that anyone searching on Climategate is also looking for a broad view of the controversy surounding the CRU breach and the subsequent fallout from the release of data and emails. I cannot see any logical reason to suggest that they are not at all related. It does not take Sherlock Holmes to see that the CRU controversy has resulted in a deeper look into the AR4 resulting the retraction of a number of claims from the AR4 (namely the end of the Himilayian Glaciers, the amount of Denmark under sea-level, ect.) I see no reason why it cannot be linked, and I fail to see why it is a problem, unless people just don't want the Crit of AR4 article to be highly visable. Arzel (talk) 14:50, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

That is an excellent argument. I agree with you that people who do a search for the term "Climategate" will be likely to be interested in all of that scientific information. It does seem that this is a debate of inclusionists vs exclusionists. I am an inclusionist, and I want the readers of the encyclopedia to have easy access to all of the information. Grundle2600 (talk) 17:22, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I completely disagree. There's nothing to suggest that people searching for "Climategate" are looking for anything other than the CRU hacking story. It's pure speculation without factual support. No need for Wikipedia to act as an enabler for science skeptics looking to promote their cause. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I am a believer, not a skeptic, of science, and I believe in manmade global warming. I also believe that it appears that some scientists may have exaggerated the effects of manmade global warming, and that readers who are interested in reading about such exaggerations will use the term "Climategate" when they do a search for such information. Grundle2600 (talk) 19:58, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Climategate, the contents of the documents taken/stolen/hacked/leaked from CRU, and the AR4 are all closely related. In fact, the IPCC AR4 WGI long ago issued a statement countering the numerous media criticisms of AR4 based the contents of the documents. So those of you claiming AR4 is not related, AR4 WGI disagrees. Evensong (talk) 13:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I would like to provide a link to the IPCC page containing the statement, but it was (apparently) deleted about an hour after I made the above comment. No connection, of course. Just inconvenient. Evensong (talk) 16:15, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

The link to Criticism of the IPCC AR4 belongs in the "See also" section and we should agree to return it there. The "Process issues" section parallels the concerns brought up by the subject of this article, in the same time period and involving the same IPCC organization. Would readers of either article find it very useful to be told about the existence of the other? Of course. To the extent a reader would be interested in this article, there would be an interest in the other, and vice versa. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 20:44, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

WP:SEEALSO: Links included in the "See also" section may be useful for readers seeking to read as much about a topic as possible, including subjects only peripherally related to the one in question. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 20:50, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Umm...when I said "that'll one more thing to watch people fight over", I wasn't saying that the fight should start now. Wait a bit. Guettarda (talk) 20:05, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

These things can change over time. "Watergate" originally referred to a break-in, then matastasized into any politics-related shenanigans of the Nixon administration from 1971-1974. That's another reason to be careful about using the word in the title and to just wait and watch for now. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 20:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Proposal

The only major POV issue I see remaining here is that, as Scjessey originally pointed out, Climategate now refers to the document controversy and not so much the subject of this article (the hacking (for lack of a better term) itself). I propose we redirect Climategate to the fork and remove the POV tag from this article. This would also I think end the food fight over the naming since the fork name is close to the compromise position already. Any takers? JPatterson (talk) 13:56, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Oppose, sorry, but the documents article is a child article of this article, which is the parent article. People searching for "Climategate" should be directed to the parent article. Hipocrite (talk) 14:02, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Child-parent is an arbitrary distinction. I'm proposing we reverse the relationship and point back to this one. This article, being primarily about the hacking incident, would be NPOV except that its current disambiguation with "Climategate" equates the two- which is not NPOV. We can fix this by pointing "Climategate" to the article about the document kerfuffle. JPatterson (talk) 14:11, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Not a good idea. The first thing that would happen is that the skeptics would start insisting we call that article "Climategate" or "Climategate scandal" or "Humans rode on the backs of dinosaurs" or whatever the current denial of reality du jour is. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:14, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

If we could reach consensus on a name for the fork which didn't include climategate would it change your position? Once consensus is reached it would be very difficult to raise the issue again in the future I think. JPatterson (talk) 14:20, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

No, it would not change my position. My chief concern is that what is currently a child article would evolve into a WP:POVFORK. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:41, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

What difference does it make if that battle is fought here or there? At least it would eliminate one major point of contention. If this article dealt mostly with the hack, as the title implies, no one could complain about WP:UNDUE. JPatterson (talk) 14:50, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose as the whole thing follows from the theft or other distribution of documents, this main article covers that and outlines the main issues with the documents as well as covering the principal reactions, the documents article focusses on the detail of the documents. . . dave souza, talk 14:30, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

You raise some valid points but the current disambiguation says Climategate = CRU hacking incident, which besides being inaccurate, will always be seen by a significant number of editors to be non-NPOV. My "third way" proposal was an attempt to find a way forward. JPatterson (talk) 14:46, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Per above, we may have evolving usage for the term, which may render all of this discussion moot. Guettarda (talk) 14:55, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Those who so want there to be a 'climategate' are still trying to decide what it's going to consist of when it comes. Good job we didn't rename this article to suit them a few weeks/months ago, we'd have looked like wallies when the 'climategate train' moved on and left us with a misnamed article here. I remember the same problems with the term Web 2.0 - at one time that was said (in the WP article) to refer to the use of rounded corners and diagonal-line shading in website design. --Nigelj (talk) 15:11, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I think it decidedly unproductive to get sidetracked into a debate as to whether "Climategate" exists or not. That train has long since left the station. JPatterson (talk) 15:27, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Support - I agree with Jpatterson. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 17:28, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Support - I also agree with JPatterson. HideTheDecline (talk) 17:38, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I want to explain why I think JPaterson's proposal sounds like a small step in the right direction. It appears to be working toward separating: (A) the details of whether the documents that initiated Climategate were leaked by a whistleblower or the result of a hack and their contents from: (B) the ongoing public revelation and exposure that Global Warming is a fraud and based on gross scientific misconduct which is Climategate per se. HideTheDecline (talk) 21:13, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Support - I agree with JPatterson. Greenbough (talk) 03:09, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Strongly support this, as what Jpatterson says is very true: the train has left the station as to whether or not Climategate "exists." Scottaka UnitAnode 19:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - The title isn't the only area where NPOV is being violated. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:38, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

What other changes need to be made to the article aside from moving it to Climategate that would lead you to believe it was written from a Neutral Point of View, exactly and specifically? Hipocrite (talk) 19:39, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I think that mentioning the death threats in the lede is a violation of WP:UNDUE. Sure, it's notable enough to warrant mention in the article body, but not in the lede. To be honest, it appears to be an emotional ploy to draw sympathy for the scientists. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:47, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok, after that, though, you're good? Just trying to get it all out there. Hipocrite (talk) 19:52, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the title and the death threats in the lede. Fix these two issues and my concerns about neutrality have been addressed. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:58, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh wait, let me clarify. I don't think that the article should be renamed Climategate. I'm fine with Climatic Research Unit x controversy where x can be "e-mail", "document" or "e-mail and document". A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:13, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

But if this article was about the issues peripheral to where the main controversy has evolved off wike (by peripheral issues I mean the hack, death threats etc.), how could that not be NPOV? There was a hack (ok we could quibble about accuracy), there were death threats. Assuming the tone is dispassionate, reporting those things in an article about those things eliminates the NPOV issues for me. The problem now is that our disambiguation says Climategate= CRU hacking incident. This is of course untrue and violative of WP:UNDUE. Eliminate the disambiguation, we eliminate that issue, right? JPatterson (talk) 13:43, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

This is a discussion, note a vote. Sorry, let me try this again. You believe people looking for Climategate are not interested in the inquiries, the timeline, or the responses? All they want is the content of the documents? Hipocrite (talk) 19:37, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Kind of looks like a vote to me. I mean, why did you say "oppose" to begin with? So, you started the voting process and now you want to discuss it?  :) (Or, am I missing something?) Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 20:05, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Oppose, as then the parent article would have to be deleted as per WP:NOTABLE. I would support a merge, if that's what you're after.--Heyitspeter (talk) 20:09, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

You think the documents are non-notable?? JPatterson (talk) 20:44, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

What I mean is: if the "documents" article is about the documents and the ensuing controversy, and if this article really is ipso facto only about the hacking incident and not about the information hacked or about the controversy surrounding it, then the latter is not notable and should be deleted. Computers get hacked into all the time. News articles are generally not concerned with a hacking incident, but rather with the circumstances (read:controversy) surrounding it.--Heyitspeter (talk) 20:54, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I see. That's an interesting point I hadn't thought of. Of course it begs the question as to why then does the title of the main article reflect such a non-notable part of the controversy. Oh well, I tried.JPatterson (talk) 00:39, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Yep. I appreciate your posing an alternative idea, but I still have to oppose it for reasons just stated. In answer to your pondering: in the early stages, the article was being owned by a vocal faction that attempted to censor any mention of a controversy (the talkpage FAQ is a living remnant of that era), hence the title. Name changes were periodically proposed, but as most were moves in the direction of recognizing the existence of a controversy, support came slowly. That continued until recently, when enough NPOV editors became aware of this article to balance out opinion.--Heyitspeter (talk) 08:32, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

These kinds of proposals no longer seem productive. Every single !vote "goes down party lines" and we end up with nothing getting done. Looks remarkably like the US Senate in here. I vote for the legalization of cannabis. Who is with me? -- Scjessey (talk) 20:12, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Hey, I've already told CoM that everybody must get stoned. Anyway, time to relax a bit. . . dave souza, talk 20:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Dude! Not cool. No need to get biblical.91.153.115.15 (talk) 20:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Hahah that would be so amazing. 4:20 grenwich mean time we all get blazed, sign on and start editing? I would totally support this.--Heyitspeter (talk) 20:39, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Support, basically. I've just argued on the rename discussion for something like this; I think we should have separate articles on the hacking incident and the controversy arising from the content of the documents, and that 'Climategate' should redirect to the latter. Robofish (talk) 23:59, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Great, this is similar to the way I see it. However, I would like to note that hacking at the University of East Anglia is merely alleged here. I do no believe that any evidence indicating that it was in fact a hack has been made public. That just goes to show how absurd the current title of the article is and how POV those editors responsible for maintaining it are. Furthermore, wherether or not the emails were hacked is almost entirely irrelevant to the importance of the event at this point. Obviously, the content of the leak information and the reaction to it at are what matter to readers. HideTheDecline (talk) 01:49, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Support - The position that the hacking incident is the main subject is indefensible. Sole Soul (talk) 05:29, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose any name containing Climategate. Unencyclopedic, dramatic, sensationalist, cheap tabloid. Kittybrewster ☎ 16:59, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

  Then what do we do with the name Watergate? We're not here to reform the readers, just inform them. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 21:03, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Hey, just because you guys seem to have missed this:

See Talk:Climatic Research Unit hacking incident/RfC on article name change

Very disjointed having conversations on different pages...99.141.243.97 (talk) 03:21, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I just found that everyone is voting on the name change again, starting yesterday. This time it's at Talk:Climatic Research Unit hacking incident/RfC on article name change#Available options according to community. Vote early and vote often. And if you don't like the vote - start a new page, start a new discussion, invite your friends, and hold a new vote! (Sorry if I and the IP above messed it up by telling everybody) --Nigelj (talk) 15:42, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks to you both for pointing that out, I just voted in favor of changing the article title to something less POV. HideTheDecline (talk) 18:02, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose for Hipocrite's reasons near the top of this thread. The current redirect reflects what most people are talking about when they want to know more about "Climategate". Cater to the readers. And not enough attention has been paid to Hipocrite's 19:37 comment: You believe people looking for Climategate are not interested in the inquiries, the timeline, or the responses? All they want is the content of the documents? There's only one good answer to that. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 21:00, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Proposal: Add Utah Resolution To Responses.

Utah has passed a resolution condemning climate alarmists, climate science fraud and disputing any scientific basis for global warming. The passage of the Utah bill is a direct response to Climategate. The legislation stated:

Emails and other communications between climate researchers around the globe, referred to as "climategate", indicate a well-organised and ongoing effort to manipulate global temperature data in order to produce a global warming outcome.

http://www.businessgreen.com/business-green/news/2257843/utah-house-representatives

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/feb/12/utah-climate-alarmists

I would like to propose that the Utah resolution be added to the Responses section of the article. HideTheDecline (talk) 23:02, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I concur. Edit boldly. But anticipate opposition. We are not arbiters of the truth, we reflect WP:RS. They're all mad in Utah, of course, but that's not our concern. Paul Beardsell (talk) 23:15, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely notable...strange and disquieting... but notable. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:25, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I have WP:WEIGHT concerns. Utah's relationship to the incident is insignificant at best, so it is difficult for me to see how any sort of mention can be justified with the article in its current form. It makes the Republican representatives of Utah look embarrassingly half-witted, so I'd love to see it in the article as prominently as possible, if I'm honest. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:18, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

While I admire your enthusiasm and the boldness of your blinking red text, keep in mind that as Wikipedia editors, we are not here to engage in disputes or try to made one side look good or bad. We're here to report the dispute as dispassionately as possible. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 05:03, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I would think that it was obvious this is a well-meaning joke on my part. I am actually ambivalent on the matter. I can see arguments for and against including something about this, so I used a bit of humor to express that position. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:31, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

The first article explains well the motivation behind the resolution. It's becaues the dairy farmer lobby, which vehemently opposes carbon emission restrictions, is strong in Utah. Cla68 (talk) 05:09, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I believe the state of Utah's response is notable enough to include a brief summary in this article, but it's probably more significant to citizens of the USA than to the rest of the world.--CurtisSwain (talk) 06:07, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

How do you propose to mention it, giving proper context, without unbalancing the article? Guettarda (talk) 06:58, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I think CurtisSwain makes an important point about this being a rather US-centric phenomenon, although one could conceivably imagine similar actions in one or two other countries with economies tied closely to exploiting fossil fuel. If Utah's "resolution" had any meaningful consequences then I would agree that it would be notable enough to be mentioned; however, since this is clearly not the case it would seem that WP:WEIGHT (and even WP:NOTNEWS) would apply. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:31, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Does this mean it's now illegal in Utah to mention global warming and imply it might be true? Are they going to ask Google to censor searches from within the state to get rid of all the pesky scientific lies? It's the funniest thing I've heard today. Of course it's US-centric, no one else would pass a bill against a specific scientific fact. I cannot decide how, if at all, to mention this in the article. Maybe a suitably withering sentence. --Nigelj (talk) 19:56, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Indiana_Pi_Bill Kittybrewster ☎ 23:26, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

"Does this mean it's now illegal in Utah to mention global warming and imply it might be true?" I'm sorry, but we can't give legal advice here. You'll have to ask a lawyer. :) A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:40, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Move request

Climatic Research Unit hacking incident → Climatic Research Unit documents controversy — Per discussion at Talk:Climatic_Research_Unit_hacking_incident/RfC_on_article_name_change Gerardw (talk) 23:11, 17 February 2010 (UTC)}} Why are we voting twice? A vote is/was being carried out at the link provided above. Vote there, please.--Heyitspeter (talk) 19:13, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

We are not voting twice. We're merely following the published request move protocol. By posting on the move request page, allegations of canvassing are addressed. Whether the discussion is here or on the subpage is irrelevant (as the subpage is clearly linked from here). After the request move time period has elapsed we can ascertain the status of the consensus and move the page if appropriate. Gerardw (talk) 20:00, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Mmkay. So those of us who voted on the other page can refrain from voting here to avoid clutter while having our votes tallied?--Heyitspeter (talk) 21:01, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Oppose the concealment of the "vote" (which is actually an RfC, so any votes there are utterly academic - it's "Request for Comment", not "Request for Vote"). -- Scjessey (talk) 19:19, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Review WP:RM. Move request templates are "not obligatory," consensus can be reached outside of them.--Heyitspeter (talk) 21:02, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Has nothing to do with anything. I don't object to the template. I object to all the underhanded crap that came before it, not to mention the fact the the proposed title is completely wrong in that it describes something that is only part of the article. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:09, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• I oppose this move for two reasons:

  1. The article is not about the controversy. The controversy is just one of the consequences of the incident the article describes; therefore, the proposed title fails WP:TITLE insofar as it lacks accuracy.
  2. The discussion related to this move request is plagued by procedural shenanigans, including (but not limited to) indications of improper canvassing and meatpuppetry.

-- Scjessey (talk) 01:08, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Very little of the article is dedicated to discussion of the hack itself. If the article were about the hack alone it would fail WP:Notability. As for the allegations of improper canvassing and meatpuppetry, can you provide specifics?--Heyitspeter (talk) 01:18, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Much more about the hacking aspect was in the article before the recent rewrite, but much more of this information will doubtless find its way in once the Norfolk police and the inquiry make the specifics publicly available. The allegations with respect to canvassing and meatpuppetry were made by other individuals - I have conducted no personal analysis; however, there are other procedural concerns that I have. For example, a substantial portion of the discussion originated on the talk page of a topic-banned editor. The objection I raised in my first point should be more than sufficient to show that this move request is inappropriate though. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:32, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• Editors, please don't argue about the name here. The debate has been extensive and full in the RfC. Let an uninvolved admin review the RfC and make his/her decision. Cla68 (talk) 01:23, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
  • The RFC was an RFC, not a move request. And Oren0's latest addition was (a) not a move request (by what he said, it was just another step in the RFC) and (b) was entirely canvassed. Guettarda (talk) 01:30, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Guettarda, it's been pointed out to you repeatedly (without response) that move requests are not obligatory and that consensus can and often is reached outside of them. The present template is here to direct editors' attention to the corresponding discussion page. That's all. As for the allegations of canvassing, note (as has also been pointed out to you) that only certain inappropriate kinds of canvassing are prohibited. If you see these, please provide specifics and not diffuse accusations that ipso facto cannot be addressed.--Heyitspeter (talk) 04:49, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

It has? Sorry I must have missed that. And, you know, instead of assuming bad faith and linking to WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, would you please link to the actual discussion? And regarding Oren0's assurances...? Guettarda (talk) 14:51, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't want to have to search through every single diff, but after looking through recent histories you've posed these concerns repeatedly: [15][16][17][18][19]. Answers given, e.g., Talk:Climatic_Research_Unit_hacking_incident/RfC_on_article_name_change#Discussion Talk:Climatic Research Unit hacking incident/RfC on article name change#Is the_question of consensus still in doubt? Talk:Climatic_Research_Unit_hacking_incident#Climatic_Research_Unit_email_and_document_controversy--Heyitspeter (talk) 19:36, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Not diffs for my comments, diffs for replies that you claim I'm ignoring. In the second section, in response to my comment that an RFC posted the previous day was being used to argue for consensus for a move, you replied by posting something about the fact that there's no requirement to list move requests and WP:RM. True, but a non sequitur. In the first section, in request to my question about whether Oren0 had decided to implement the "decision" of an RFC that stood at "no consensus", he replied that no, he was just refocusing the RFC. A heavily canvassed RFC which was hidden on a subpage (but still managed to attract a flood of votes just a few hours) can't be taken as a legitimate move request. Not because it isn't listed at WP:RM, but because of the canvassing and the time frame, and the fact that it was hidden from most of the involved editors. Guettarda (talk) 20:23, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Answers were given in response to the diffs provided and elsewhere.

The RFC was not hidden, it was clearly linked to (and originally moved from) discussions on this talkpage, just as it has been linked to in this very section. Additionally, those who'd voted on the original discussion were unanimously warned of the vote for a proposed move in order to further ensure that people were aware of what was going on (this is presumably the canvassing you're talking about). That is to say, the "canvassing" you dispute was initiated precisely so as to address your concern that it existed on an RfC page and not at the main article. Please please think through your criticisms. It sure feels like you're throwing whatever you've got at this process so that the outcome that may not be going your way is avoided.--Heyitspeter (talk) 21:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• The RfC is tainted (see above) and it is important that these issues are noted. There can be no legitimate claim of consensus until the issue has been debated on this talk page anyway. It was wrong for the debate to be concealed in a subpage. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:32, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

  The sub-page was created by TS who moved that discussion from here, so I don't think you can say it was "concealed". Arzel (talk) 00:00, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

  Sure I can. The genesis of the discussion was on the talk page of a topic-banned editor, and it was a while before many people were aware of it. Then some people were notified, and others weren't. All very peculiar and troubling. -- Scjessey (talk) 00:04, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

  You participated in that discussion, and you commended Go Right on his actions, and you said that it must be proposed here with no copy and pasting of results. [20]. Now that it has satisfied those requests you call it tainted? Arzel (talk) 00:24, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose - this article is not about the "controversy", it's about the data theft (ie, the hack) and its consequences. The title might have matched this article three months ago, but long and complex discussions among editors have resulted in this article. We can't pretend that the last 3 months didn't happen. Guettarda (talk) 01:37, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

No we can't. The hack is non notable without the controversy that ensued and it is the controversy about the content that has been covered in the media over the past three months, not the hack. If you want an article about the hack, support my proposal above and make the document fork the main article. Otherwise, the title should reflect the primary aspect of story. JPatterson (talk) 16:02, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support - This move to rename the title is a small step toward making the article NPOV. At this point, whether or not there was a hack or any data theft is clearly irrelevant and inconsequential to the revelation that global warming is a product of gross scientific fraud and corruption that, among other noteworthy political events, disrupted the Copenhagen climate conference, as indicated for example here: 'Climategate' at centre stage as Copenhagen opens http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6947199.ece HideTheDecline (talk) 02:23, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose The present title has been subjected to the highest standards of WP:POV scrutiny ever since the incident occurred, and has survived them all. There are many people who are disappointed by the lack of effect this server hack and data theft is now having on the politics in their country, who would like to widen and refresh the anti-science AGW-denial debate, per some dubious and politically-motivated blogs. Renaming the article to allow more Wikipedia discussion of these extreme WP:FRINGE conspiracy theories is but a step along that path. The next time realistic information becomes available that may affect this article (including its title) for the better is likely to be when the official inquiries begin to report. The present title, and article wording, is strongly supported by the FAQ of the website that is live in preparation for the publication of one of these official reviews. --Nigelj (talk) 12:31, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

How has the present title "survived them all"? There are 23 editors on the subpage who expressed support for the more neutral and comprehensive "documents controversy" (which would include the hacking) rather than "hacking incident" (which excludes the bulk of the controversy). So, no, it absolutely did NOT "survive", it was soundly rejected, yet a small group insists it be kept. Perhaps your confusion is relating to the "Climategate" rename debate, for which there was no consensus; this rename debate has no mention of "Climategate" ATren (talk) 15:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, canvassing produces results and can skew debates. We're well aware of that. That's why it's considered disruptive. Guettarda (talk) 20:12, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• oppose - Nigelj says it well William M. Connolley (talk) 12:45, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose on procedural grounds since the RfC seems ambiguous to me. Arguments on both sides have generated considerable support, which makes me feel like keeping the status quo is better than trudging forward with new problems. But User:HideTheDecline's argument in support of the move makes me convinced the move is inappropriate. Renaming may be appropriate, but I'm still convinced that title is misleading and avoids the manner in which the incident occurred and places undue focus on documents when it is really cherry-picking from e-mails that has gotten the most attention. Do we have a hide the decline article yet? ScienceApologist (talk) 13:08, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose canvassed - I was of the opinion that GoRight was merely soliciting opinions and seeking compromise on his talk page - however, I was recently made aware that dissenting opinions were being shut out by supporters of his proposal - thus, it appears this was canvassed. I oppose canvassed discussions. Hipocrite (talk) 13:19, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. The primary subject of this article should be something that can be characterized as a 'hacking incident' rather than a controversy, though I do not think that the current name is the best choice. If there is a controversy which should be documented, it is perhaps about the attitudes of various people working on the issue of climate change, not limited to CRU staff, maybe also including IPCC. This kind of extension is discussed in other sections of this talk page and rejected as a reform of this article. It may take a form of a separate article if there are needs and ways to document the issue from a neutral viewpoint with reliable sources.--Masudako (talk) 14:38, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support and NOTE: 23 editors have already expressed support for the name change here, and this move request was made to finalize that consensus. Any opposition here should be balanced against the strong support there. It's clear that the consensus is to rename the page to "documents controversy" rather than "hacking incident". My support rationale (for about the 2,203,103rd time) is that "hacking" is POV because it only describes one part of a larger story. It would be like naming the Tiger Woods story "Tiger Woods' Single Car Accident". "Hacking incident" not only fails to cover the whole story, it doesn't even cover the predominant aspect of the story, which was the controversy arising from the contents of the emails. The hacking itself has received a small portion of the coverage, yet those who wish to de-emphasize the content controversy want to make it the main point. It's absurdly POV to anyone who has followed this story in the least. ATren (talk) 14:48, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
  • The fact that the discussion was tainted by canvassing issues has already been raised. Do you disagree with the premise that it was a canvassed poll? Guettarda (talk) 14:55, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

If you think it was canvassed, then make a more broad announcement to bring in more opinion. This debate has already been advertised on several uninvolved forums (through the RFC) and several of the "supports" on the sub-page are from previously uninvolveds. Your argument holds no water. ATren (talk) 15:03, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

To begin with, the solution to canvassing is not more canvassing. Secondly, can you please show where this RFC was listed? I can't even find the original RFC listed, let alone anything about Oren0's new one. Guettarda (talk) 18:44, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

What part of WP:CANVASS do believe was violated? AFAIK, it was bipartisan effort by ChrisO and GoRight. Even WMC and Scjessey were approached. It seems that the 4 measures of Limited posting, Neutral, Nonpartisan and Open appear to have been met. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:05, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

ChrisO and GoRight? No, this was Oren0's canvass. Guettarda (talk) 18:44, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Maybe we're talking about two different things. I was thinking of this. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:22, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Guettarda should read WP:CANVASS. I notified everyone who had participated in the RfC about the discussion, even those people such as him who disagree with me. I also posted on this talk page. This is well within accepted bounds, and if anyone has a problem with my conduct I suggest they raise the issue at the appropriate venue rather than smear me with (at best) half-truths. Oren0 (talk) 06:48, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Maybe you should read the policy you're quoting. The page refers to "editors who have substantively edited or discussed an article related to the discussion", but looking at your edit history, you ignored a large swath of editors who have been actively involved in the article and its talk page. Your inappropriate canvass produced a tainted poll. If you weren't actually quoting from the WP:CANVASS you could claim not to know what it says, but since you have linked to it, you need to stop pretending that your actions were in some way acceptable. Guettarda (talk) 07:00, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose for now. As in all of the naming discussions that have been raging over the last 3 months, this proposal has one basic flaw... Nothing has changed, it is still the hacking that is the only really substantial element of the "controversy", everything else is simply conjecture and speculation. Possibly there will at some time be more facts to the incident than that there was a hacking - but that time hasn't come yet. Adding to that "Documents" is undue focus, since it is the emails that have been the focus of 99% of all coverage. As there seems to be no consensus (and possible canvassing) i believe that the status-quo is the only real choice - while maybe not optimal. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 15:06, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Nothing has changed? Have you read the opinion polls lately? That wasn't caused by the hack. There's something like eight independent investigations going on, only one of which is looking into the hack. Jones has stepped down and given the China/Siberia stuff is unlikely to be able to step back up. Investigatory panel members have had to resign over allegations of bias, state legislatures are passing resolutions, law suits are being filed against the EPA using the documents as a basis for overturning their finding. Sponsors of the climate change bill in the US senate are dropping like flies. But we continue to sing la-la-la with our fingers in our ears and pretend nothing has happened and it's all about the hack. Hilarious. JPatterson (talk) 16:13, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comment The rabid debate surrounding this article approaches absurdity. This story is old and stale, and its relevance in relation to anything important is questionable. The world's attention has moved to bigger and better things. Apparently, some wikipedia editors have not. NickCT (talk) 15:15, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

More than 1800 Google News hits, just from the last week, for the term "Climategate". So, "old and stale"? Not quite. ATren (talk) 15:51, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support As long as the search term "Climategate" redirects to this page, then this page is about the controversy. If some editors want this page to focus on the hacking/theft aspect, that's fine. It is notable, in the same way that Dan Ellesberg's treason trial is notable. If other editors want to discuss the controversy stemming from the hack/leak, that's fine and notable too, in much the same way as the Pentagon Papers are notable. But the status quo is untenable, in so far as the larger square peg of "Climategate" keeps getting hammered into the smaller round hole of "hacking incident." Something has to give, and a new page is the most reasonable compromise. Evensong (talk) 16:54, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose as the main subject matter is still about the theft, not about the "controversy" of what was contained in the stolen data. Tarc (talk) 17:16, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. The term "hacking incident" is accurate and neutral, and the consequences of the hack and alleged controversy fall under the scope of the article. StuartH (talk) 17:23, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, "hacking" may not be accurate. The fact is, no one's been able to determine how these files were obtained. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:26, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Wrong. See this FAQ as well as our own above (Q5) --Nigelj (talk) 18:01, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

This has already been debunked before. This review will not investigate how the e-mails were leaked. It's not even part of its mandate. Please don't spread misinformation. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:10, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

"Norfolk Constabulary are investigating criminal offences in relation to the hacking incident."FAQ . . dave souza, talk 18:33, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

If citing an incomplete investigation sponsored by an involved party about a charge that is not part of the investigation is the best argument we come up with, then let's move onto something based in reality. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:10, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

This is from the FAQ Nigelj keeps citing:

"To put it briefly, we will determine if there is evidence of poor scientific practice which could call their research into question; whether they followed University and statutory FOI procedures properly; and whether they should have better procedures for managing their research and keeping their data safe."

Sounds like the investigation focuses on much more than just the "hacking" question, despite Nigelj's claim that this FAQ is evidence that the title "hacking" should remain. ATren (talk) 18:36, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Tiresome. Of course the investigation isn't there to investigate the [IT issues or technicalities of the] clarified later after e/cs --Nigelj (talk) 19:06, 18 February 2010 (UTC) hacking. Did you not notice this? "The University of East Anglia announced the independent Review on 11 February to investigate key allegations arising from the series of hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit in December 2009. The incident saw an anonymous hacker steal 160MB of data from the UEA server (including more than 1,000 emails and 3,000 other documents) and leak it online". (My emphasis) --Nigelj (talk) 18:57, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

But the topic is much more than the hacking. That's the point you seem to be missing. ATren (talk) 19:02, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

But it is a hacking incident. Hence the title of our article. And we cover the reactions and responses as we should. --Nigelj (talk) 19:06, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

It is more than just a hacking incident. "Climategate" redirects here, and Climategate is about the overall controversy, which includes the hacking but also includes the content controversy. It's like naming the "World War II" article "German invasion of Poland" and redirecting WWII to that article -- yes, WWII includes the German invasion, but it's much more than that, and to redirect the former to the latter would ignore the bulk of the topic. ATren (talk) 19:36, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

So are you saying that Climategate should be turned into a dab, or pointed somewhere else? And what does either of those two issues have to do with the naming of this page? Guettarda (talk) 20:09, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Climategate currently redirects here, so it should reflect the entire issue, not just the hacking. An alternative would be to create a new article (e.g. "CRU Documents Controversy") which discusses the content controversy separately from the hacking, and have Climategate forward there (since "Climategate" is predominantly about the contents of the documents, not how they were obtained). I think it makes more sense to have it all in one, but having a new article on the controversy is fine too, as long as Climategate forwards there. ATren (talk) 20:27, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

This is just getting ridiculous. You cannot use the existence of a redirect to dictate the content of the article, let alone how it should be titled. As for "as long as Climategate forwards there." This is all about pushing the "Climategate" to make sure the controversy runs as long as possible. I cannot see how it is possible for it to me a more clear-cut case of agenda-driven editing. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:38, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Nor can you use a poor article name to dictate the content of the article. So, no, it's not getting ridiculous, it's been ridiculous for 3 months now. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:49, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Excuse me? You have come out quite recently and said "Yes, the title and the death threats in the lede. Fix these two issues and my concerns about neutrality have been addressed." You have stated that you have no problems with the rest of the content in this article from a neutrality perspective. Are you walking that statement back? Hipocrite (talk) 20:55, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, either I didn't say that right or you misunderstood. Either way, let me clarify. Over the past 3 months I've seen arguments that certain content be kept out of the article on the grounds that the article was about the hacking incident and not the subsequent controversy. This same argument is now being used to justify the article title. I'm fine with the content save the undue weight to the death threats in the lede. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:06, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Scjessey, quit the agenda accusations. I have none except NPOV. "Climategate" exists, whether you like it or not. The term redirects here, so this article should reflect the Climategate topic, starting with the title. An alternative would be to create a new article which details the document content controversy and have "Climategate" redirect there. The current situation, which is to have Climategate redirect to an article on the hacking alone entitled specifically "hacking" (which is NOT what Climategate is primarily about) is simply wrong. Again, it's like linking WWII to Invasion of Poland (1939). ATren (talk) 20:51, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

What information is lacking from this article that you believe needs to be inserted and can be sourced to a reliable secondary source? Be extremely specific. Hipocrite (talk) 20:55, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I am referring specifically to the title, not the contents. I only referred to the contents in the context of the possibility of splitting the article as an alternative to renaming. ATren (talk) 21:03, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

So let's be explicitly clear here. When you wrote "The current situation, which is to have Climategate redirect to an article on the hacking alone (which is NOT what Climategate is primarily about) is simply wrong," you were not refering to the current situation when you wrote "The current situation?" Do you honestly expect me to believe that? Would you like to further clarify, or perhaps retract or revise your earlier statements? Hipocrite (talk) 21:07, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I was referring to the title. I will clarify. I have not examined the content in detail so I reserve judgement on whether this applies to content, but the intent of my comments in this section has been to address the name only. ATren (talk) 21:13, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

(after ec) - Sorry, but that is an absolutely ridiculous argument. By your rationale, I could create a redirect called "Utahgate" that points to Utah, and then start trying to make the article document every conceivable media angle of the recent Utah House of Representatives "resolution" denying science, and then try to get the article changed to "Utah House of Representatives Resolution controversy". The tactics that science deniers are now employing to try to bend this article to their point of view are scandalous. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:02, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Scjessey, this is the second time you have accused me of bad faith. Please strike the above.

Your Utah example misses the point. I have no objection to redirecting Climategate to another article which focuses exclusively on the content controversy; I only object to the fact that this is the article on Climategate even though the title reflects only the hacking portion. But in any case, would you support a separate article named (e.g.) "CRU Documents Controversy", with Climategate redirecting there? That would be acceptable, I think. ATren (talk) 21:10, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Scjessey, please stop the use of "science deniers". It is inaccurate and quite insulting.--SPhilbrickT 02:30, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

The term "denialism" has been applied to this phenomenon both in the popular press and peer-reviewed publications. It doesn't strike me as inaccurate, and we can't really bend over backwards to avoid everything that someone finds offensive (after all, we don't require PBUH after every mention of the Prophet Muhammad, despite the fact that some people find the omission offensive). Guettarda (talk) 05:24, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Guettarda, he is calling me a science denier, which is actually kind of absurd if you knew me, and certainly insulting. Read his last comment: "The tactics that science deniers are now employing to try to bend this article..." (emphasis mine). He's not talking about those writing externally about Climategate, he is referring specifically to the editors in this thread. In effect, he is calling me a denier for expressing an opinion on the content of the article, which is completely independent of my opinion on the topic itself. That's unacceptable, and he should stop. ATren (talk) 06:40, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comment - I used Google News to search the relative frequency of terms in this debate, as mentioned in the press during the last month:
  • 1700 total Climategate hits.
  • 60 contain "Climategate" with "hack" or "hacking"
  • 285 contain "Climategate" with the exact phrase "freedom of information"
  • 195 contain "Climategate" with the term "controversy"

  Clearly, this is about more than just the hacking, given that only 60 out of 1700 (3.5%) of Climategate news items contain the word hacking. Note, this is an informal analysis, but it serves to show how completely wrong it is to state that this is primarily about the hacking. It borders on ridiculous, really. ATren (talk) 18:56, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

You're back to publicising the opinions of blogs again. You know that's irrelevant - we do not base article titles on what bloggers say. --Nigelj (talk) 19:01, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

No, I'm pointing out that this is about much more than the hacking. To deny all other aspects of this controversy is POV, given the relatively minor prominence the actual hacking gets in the coverage. "Hacking" to describe this topic is POV. ATren (talk) 19:04, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Stop typing for a second and read what I have already said to the same point when you just made it 10 lines above. Arguing about it twice in the same section does not help, and does not make your argument any stronger. --Nigelj (talk) 19:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Are you arguing that the hacking is the predominant aspect of this controversy? Because it seems that you are. ATren (talk) 19:31, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

As per the title of this section: I'm trying to discuss the move request, the title of the article. As I said in my !vote above, I think it's fine as it is, and nothing you've said here has altered that. --Nigelj (talk) 20:01, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

No hacking, no controversy about the emails and their direct implications. As discussed above, the "controversy" is being used as a coatrack by the denial lobby for all sorts of claims which belong in other articles. . . dave souza, talk 20:06, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

No invasion of Poland, no WWII, so do we redirect WWII to Invasion of Poland? It's a flawed argument to suggest that a topic should be named according to its triggering event even when the topic grows much larger that that single event. ATren (talk) 20:12, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, if we're going to discuss world war analogies, the Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria as a catalyst for World War I probably works better. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:28, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

But in each case, there were ensuing incidents, like the declarations of war for example. Rest assured, if the inquiries lead to all the scientists being arrested, the IPCC disbanded, and all the peer reviewed literature being burned in the streets, we will respond. Just that none of these things have happened yet. --Nigelj (talk) 20:54, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Nigelj, regardless of how the investigation turns out, there was still a controversy. That will not change. This well-documented controversy should still be documented, and if the investigations exonerate the participants, then that should be covered too. This controversy is not some insignificant claim on a blog, it's a months-long controversy covered in hundreds of newspapers across the globe. In the former case, no coverage of a discounted claim would be necessary, but Climategate is big enough that Wikipedia cannot ignore it, no matter what outcome of future investigations say. And those future outcomes certainly do not change what should be done now. ATren (talk) 21:01, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Have you seen this? Meanwhile, why not try to respond to Hipocrite's challenge above (20:55, 18 February 2010 (UTC))? Try to be constructive. --Nigelj (talk) 21:10, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

How it originated is irrelevant. It exists, and is referenced in many dozens of reliable sources. Even your own FAQ link talks about investigating the allegations of misconduct. This is about more than just the hacking, and the sources reflect that. ATren (talk) 22:30, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

←"Climategate" is much ado about nothing, and the perpetual rants of POV pushers determined to use Wikipedia to further their anti-science agenda will not change that fact. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:12, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Once again these people have hijacked a rename discussion and started listing their Google searches, disputing the FAQs, etc. Can we move all this noise out into new sections below, so that the rename debate looks more inviting to thoughtful comments and less like a playground fight? --Nigelj (talk) 21:16, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

(Supplement of my "Oppose") The logic of ATren that there is consensus to move the article does not make sense. The order of "move or not" and "to what name" matters. If there is a strong reason to avoid the current name and it is considered any name would be preferrable than it, then there will be a consensus on "move or not" first. But the present situation is not like that. (Some think that some proposed name worse than current one.)

The "-gate" names should not be a title of Wikipedia articles but just redirects. Even there is a opinion that "Climategate" may mean controversy about IPCC and therefore we should make a disamgiguation page.--Masudako (talk) 22:51, 18 February 2010 (UTC) I think that the issue people refer to by "Climategate" is not just a document leak insident but broader, and already broader than the issue alleged to the authors of those documents. So if you want an article aptly receive redirection from "Climategate", it should be newly designed. Shifting focus of this article does not arrive to a good perspective.--Masudako (talk) 23:54, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support The story is the controversy surrounding the actual documents and the fall-out from those documents. How they were released is being talked about by almost no one. Or we could create this named article, and send the Climategate redirect to the new article dealing with the controversy and subsequent fall-out. Arzel (talk) 23:58, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support The current name discredits Wikipedia. JPatterson (talk) 00:32, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

(More supplement to my Oppose) I hope you do not hurry to write a "controversy" article based on your instantaneous perception. Though perhaps I cannot contribute except suggesting some references, I want an article discussing "Role of scientists in the issue of climate change", and the issue whether the attitudes of scientists at CRU were appropriate should be located somewhere in the subject. To have an article of the (itself controvertial) subject conforming to the Wikipedia standard, you probably need to refer to scholary works of social scientists as background. I am not familiar with them, but one example I know is as follows:

Clark A. Miller, 2004: Climate science and the making of a global political order. Pages 46-66 of: Sheila Jasanoff, ed.: States of Knowledge: The co-production of science and social order. London: Routledge, 317 pp. ISBN 0-415-33361-X.

Also some of the contributors there should know what the first chairperson of IPCC said in his recollections, whether to agree or disagree.

Bert Bolin, 2007: A History of the Science and Politics of Climate Change: The Role of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. Cambridge University Press, 277 pp. ISBN 978-0-521-88082-4.

Another thing I feel I need to repeat. I do think that the word 'hacking' is inappropriate, but it does not justify the change from 'incident' to 'controversy'. --Masudako (talk) 00:39, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

• The current proposal is to rename the article Climatic Research Unit documents controversy. Both hacking incident and climategate are POV descriptions; both aspects can be fairly addressed in the article. But the title should be bland and as neutral as possible. Gerardw (talk) 00:42, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support the proposal. It seems likely there should be two articles, one discussing the controversy involving CRU, UEA, NASA, GISS, and NOAA; alleged manipulation of data from Russia, USA, China, Australia, NewZealand, Bolivia, Canada, perhaps other sites. Call it what you will, but redirect Climategate to it. The other article (the residual of this current) should preserve the discussion of the origin and compilation of the file and of the release of the documents and any legal proceedings or complications which may ensue, and should provide a link to the other. Oiler99 (talk) 05:23, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

• Note to closing admin: This move has already generated substantial responses here. This move request appears to be an attempt at forum-shopping by those who don't like the consensus that already developed there. Any evaluation of consensus here should take this into consideration. As for my own opinion, I support this move because the current article is wrongly focused. As long as Climategate redirects to this page and it is considered the main article, it should be about the most notable part of the whole thing: the document controversy. Oren0 (talk) 06:48, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Umm, no. That discussion was produced by an inappropriate canvass, and is deeply tainted. Your canvass ignored a large swath of involved editors here who, surprise, surprise, happen to disagree with the position you advocated. Guettarda (talk) 06:55, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
    • And, by the way, your accusation of "forum-shopping by those who don't like the consensus" is ridiculous. To begin with, the editor who started the move request agrees with you. In addition, bringing it onto the main page where involved editors are actually aware of the discussion cannot be faulted. Your canvass brought in a whole lot of editors who haven't participated here, and managed to exclude a large number of the ones who did participate. Guettarda (talk) 07:03, 19 February 2010 (UTC)