Talk:Europe

Newgrange

Still no answer on why it is not listed, someone simply deleted my comment --Ire2500 (talk) 13:42, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Economy of Europe

I think this would be in the economy section: Europe has a long history as the world's richest and most productive part of the world. At the time of Christ's birth is estimated western European output per capita was approximately 30% higher than the world average. Year 1500 had this advantage increased to 40%. After the development of science and the Industrial Revolution in Europe grew its lead quickly, in 1700 produced an average European almost 70% more than world's average population, and in 1850 was taken over the entire 150%. Around the year 1900 was Western Europe's leading role as the world's most productive area has been taken over by the former European colony of the United States, but Europe has continued to belong to the world's richest, most productive and knowledge-producing regions.

Revision

Reading the article I found much incorrect information.

Some of sentences use vague term Western and Eastern Europe which we used during the cold war and now have as many definitions as many there are scholars. This goes to a ridiculous idea that a wolf is primarily found in Eastern Europe and in the Balkans, with a handful of packs in pockets of Western Europe (Scandinavia, Spain, etc.).extenthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Present_distribution_of_wolf_subspecies_eur.jpg. This can be changed with short 'Northern Europe and mountainous regions of the continent' which reflects it better. Even more hilarious is the European bison part: 'Once roaming the great temperate forests of Eurasia, European bison now live in nature preserves in Poland, Russia, and other parts of Eastern Europe]]' -> in fact it does in these areas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bison_bonasus_distribution.svg. This means that the information was clearly incorrect because these reserves are very limited in terms of size and they are on the border of Poland and Belarus, and Poland and the Ukraine, regions tending to be called Central rather than Eastern Europe after the Cold War not to mention unspecified 'Eastern Europe'. Consequently I decided to correct it.

Keeping in mind size of Europe, I thought it will be wiser to specify information so instead of using 'Central, Eastern, North-Western etc. I changed it into specific places in order to avoid confusion and disappointment. So instead of saying Western Europe, whatever that term covers, I specified countries by name to make it much clearer, comprehensible and visible. --Rejedef (talk) 15:37, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that kind of rewriting is in any way helpful. In this case attempts at "precision" are just confusing, particularly if they only refer to captions of images. Eastern, Northern, Southern, Western or Central Europe are not confusing terms. Mathsci (talk) 20:47, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

  Northern Europe

  Western Europe

  Eastern Europe

  Southern Europe

Dear Mathsci - they are confusing terms because they have different meanings. You can see Western Europe as a bunch of non-communist countries... 22 years ago. CIA would say that Western Europe are France, the UK and the Low Countries. This is the confusion I make. And, after all, Europe is too small to separate it into regions. On the other hand, European nations tend to find differences rather than similarities between them. Instead of saying about regions, some of them are great, why not to specify, where possible, to make clear which country rather than telling that European Bison can be found in a region of Europe rather than mentioning that there are only 2 very tiny reserves in countries which we call nowadays Central (alternatively Central and Eastern Europe)? That was my motive to pursue changes. --Rejedef (talk) 23:13, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

The terms are mostly understandable, which is what we want. Your latest edit was better than your Central-Western-Northern-Southern and Central-Eastern-Northern Europe edit, but I do think you should have waited for a discussion with Mathsci before proceeding. Would you like to explain each terminological change? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 23:41, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I did explain my position and, it is not a personal view. It is just an observer view, as I live in Europe and I see how terms are being used in media, books, politics and in scholarly papers. To prove my point I searched for tens of links --Rejedef (talk) 23:45, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I still find these edits unhelpful, so I have reverted them. Rejdef seems to be pushing a very personal point of view: the assertion that Europe is too small to be divided into regions is not backed by reliable sources and is standard usage. The CIA's handbook has been updated. I have no idea what it said prior to the fall of the Berlin Wall, or why that should be relevant. The current version, available on the web, is the one that is used as a source for various parts of the article. When talking about animals from prehistory, as in the image captions (those images and their captions are a little quirky and possibly we don't need either of them), geographical regions do make sense and should be adopted on wikipedia if used by the sources. (Anything else is original research.) There is an article on Western Europe, which includes the 2011 classification by the United Nations (please see the image). The terms are often used in a vaguer sense. Mathsci (talk) 00:12, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Rejedef used my user talk page to continue this discussion. Please could we keep discussions about the article on this talk page? As Chipmunkdavis has written on my talk page, I think that each separate change (there were several in quite different places) should be carefully justified—one-by-one, not as a package—with a realiable source in English that uses the same phraseology. When there are tricky points, the best thing is return to the sources; any general discussion is usually not appropriate. Mathsci (talk) 22:05, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, I did not make these sources. I'm not an owner of BBC or a boss of the European Union. Please check links below to see how the European perspective may very from an American perspective. By Europe is too small to divide I mean the President of the Europe, Jerzy Buzek's views. The fall of communism is significant because it challenged the East-West divide. New sub-divisions emerged and many old ones were revived. This is why it is relevant. It also enabled the European Union, the most important international organisation in Europe, to grow. Alss, European Bison is not an animal from prehistory as it is not extinct. Wee can agree in disagree that there was a sub-divvision of Europe suggested by the United nations but it isschallenged in Europe itself. I gave you resources to check it, if you don't trust me or you believe that you are right. --Rejedef (talk) 23:45, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Why shall we name countries instead of whole regions when writing about Europe

European Subdivision is a very vague topic: Eastern, Western, Central Europe change meanings quite relatively. This has to deal with many reasons. At the end these divisions are vague. Between the 1945-1990 it was relatively easy, still Turkey, Greece, Cyprus and Malta were confusing but we had Western and Eastern Europe for some time. Nowadays subdivisions very that much: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe (at least 5 similar definitions); http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe (again, at least 5 different definitions) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe (at least 5 different definitions) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Europe (at least 5 different definitions) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Europe (at least 5 different definitions) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_Europe (at least 2 definitions) As you see, all of them are context dependent. It doesn't help that there are also old subdivisions (which we tend to bring back to life as they reflect the continent's complexity more): http://fc00.deviantart.com/fs42/f/2009/122/f/7/Europe_Division_by_JJohnson1701.png; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Central_Europe,_814.jpg; http://historyoftheancientworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/17th-century-map-of-Europe.jpg Although this model (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Grossgliederung_Europas-en.svg) is pursued much in media: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/1035212.stm (see Switzerland as a part of Central Europe and compare to other countries); http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2002/aug/26/naturaldisasters.climatechange; and European Institutions: http://www.ceinet.org/; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_European_Initiative and Un institutions: http://www.grid.unep.ch/product/map/index.php Nowadays there are Unitarian tendencies in Europe: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.0020-2754.2000.00409.x/abstract As a European I can tell you that geographical adjective has a derogatory meaning, like Eastern Europe, hence it tends to be not used, especially after the Fall of Communism in the continent. In addition to all that we have the Western Civilisation concept: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Clash_of_Civilizations_map.png As well as religions (yet influential to some extent): http://westciv2.umwblogs.org/files/2010/01/Europe_religion_map_en6-1024x833.png Now I hope you will not delete my revisions. I hope I explained well my position :) As you can see, the Fall of Communism brought not only new opportunities butt also re-discovery to Europeans after 45 years of separation. Of course I understand that outside Europe you use old sub-divisions, even these Cold war ones.

At glance: -there are no clearly defined regions in Europe: all of them may vary a lot; -naming a country helps to avoid misunderstandings and over-interpretation --Rejedef (talk) 23:24, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

If you are claiming that we can't use the phrase "Eastern Europe" in this article, I suspect that you might find that you could be subject to ArbCom restrictions which apply to contentious edits made in articles related to Eastern Europe. At the moment you have edited warred (3 reverts) and used this page as a SOAPBOX, citing blogs and news articles. You have mentioned a series of other wikipedia articles that apparently you do not like. You have not justified your edits using reliable sources, in this case books or academic articles. You have not responded to the requests of Chipmunkdavis and me. Please could you do so? This is a top level article which at the moment you are editing in a disruptive and contentious way. Mathsci (talk) 02:26, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

I do not agree: SOAPBOX is not a case here as it neither of those: -Advocacy, propaganda, or recruitment -Opinion pieces -Scandal mongering -Self-promotion -Advertising. --Rejedef (talk) 12:26, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

These are resources for which you asked.

Number 1. European Bison habitat: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1472-4642.2011.00849.x/full http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/2814/0/full http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/2814/0/rangemap

Number 2. Europe new subdivision in use: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LHm1BSGiudAC&pg=PT127&dq=europe+regions+central+northern+europe&hl=en&ei=wgCwTtCtHsiA8wOq653FAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=europe%20regions%20central%20northern%20europe&f=false http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&lr=&id=o48LPwiQkzIC&oi=fnd&pg=PP11&dq=europe+regions&ots=xxgLcz2eEf&sig=zk-5IA-T7ivZVlKgqki53n8zyi4#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=1Tk5O1G7tWcC&pg=PA1&dq=europe+regions+central+northern+europe&hl=en&ei=wgCwTtCtHsiA8wOq653FAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=europe%20regions%20central%20northern%20europe&f=false http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_BW0Ehau6oMC&pg=PA36&dq=europe+regions+central+northern+europe&hl=en&ei=wgCwTtCtHsiA8wOq653FAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=x4gbSgAACAAJ&dq=europe+regions+central+northern+europe&hl=en&ei=wgCwTtCtHsiA8wOq653FAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA http://www.springerlink.com/content/l722418262211497/ http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1095-8312.2011.01730.x/full http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayFulltext?type=1&fid=6301140&jid=RIS&volumeId=20&issueId=01&aid=6301132 http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1468-0327.00018/abstract http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168192301002337

Please also see to have an insight into problems with defining regions itself by numberous scholars: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=uZBhwij5Y24C&printsec=frontcover&dq=defining+regions+europe&hl=en&ei=vQKwTqnVBYrh8AOcudiuAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1468-0491.00200/abstract http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09595237400185111 http://publius.oxfordjournals.org/content/26/4/141.short http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=y-1fwix23zMC&pg=PA5&dq=defining+regions+europe&hl=en&ei=vQKwTqnVBYrh8AOcudiuAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Central%20Europe&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rejedef (talk • contribs) 14:39, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Edits by Rejedef

I was quite happy with this edit by Rejedef (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [1]. Without any explanation, Rejedef very recently decided to revert his own edit. As I have written before, if Rejedef has decided that "Eastern Europe" or "Western Europe", etc, are not valid terms in sources, he will probably be topic-banned from a large range of articles on wikipedia under WP:AE. Mathsci (talk) 22:14, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

? I revised the article changing its vaguely defined terms which are used in a different way or omitted. Instead, I gave more specific information. I also quoted tens of resources: academic, political and medial. If you see any error in my edits, please change parts you do not like. Please, do not revert everything. Also, please prove why you think my edits are wrong. --Rejedef (talk) 02:41, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Proposing deletion of eastern, western, central,

1. They are obsolete: Western-Eastern divide goes back to the cold war which finished by 1993. Using them in modern Europe is confusing and even offensive in post-communist countries.

2. Their definitions are very vague and very highly depending on a source: CIA defines European Regions differently than UNESCO (just one continent), the World Bank (one continent+Central Asia), the UN or even the BBC. Not to mention the region of Central Europe defined by the Central European Initiative. (Drake, Miriam A. (2005) Encyclopedia of Library and Information Science, CRC Press)

3. Using names of countries rather than whole region will make the article better in terms of quality because.

4. Using western and eastern terms is neglecting the diversity of great individualism of European countries and their cultural differences putting them into one, rather confusing basket: the UK and Sweden are in Northern Europe but Sweden is an ethnically homogeneous country while the UK is a melting spot; Romania and Bulgaria are in south eastern Europe but Romania speaks a Romance language while Bulgaria speaks a Slavonic language. France and the Netherlands are in Western Europe but France speaks a Romance language and is a Catholic country while the Netherlands is a predominantly protestant and speaking a Germanic language. Latvia and Russia are considered to be eastern European but Latvia speaks a Baltic language and is protestant and Russia speaks many languages, mainly the Slavonic Russian and is Orthodox.

5. Using regional terms we also fall into confusion: without specifying a country we may think that it is really about one region. Usually it is one or two countries declining and others in the region begun increase their power as power in Europe was always very fluid.

6. In his book 'Europe, a Political Profile [2 Volumes]: An American Companion to European Politics'http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&lr=&id=V1uzkNq8xfIC&oi=fnd&pg=PP2&dq=political+subdivision+europe&ots=_Lj0Nu59s6&sig=frYx0LKN03SVlm2SFByVmmFdv9E#v=onepage&q=central%20europe&f=false Hans Slomp — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rejedef (talk • contribs) 04:22, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Rejedef, your edits to this article now appear to have become non-neutral, unbalanced and essay-like, with POV-pushing from a very personal perspective. If you continue making edits of this kind, using this talk page as some kind of WP:FORUM or WP:SOAPBOX to veto the use of terms like Eastern Europe, a request for arbitration enforcement under WP:DIGWUREN will be made, which could restrict your editing on this article, related articles and their talk pages. Mathsci (talk) 07:05, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia's goal to have a neutral stand. And my edits are neutral because they are specific. If you do not agree, please prove it. Essay like? I would expect to be serious but if you want to have incorrect or misleading information there, please go ahead but do not delete things without discussing them first. I understand adjectives but they are purely alleged, Mathsci. Please prove them. --Rejedef (talk) 12:21, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Avoidance of world like "eastern" and "western" doesn't seem neutral to me. Why should we conceal, for instance, that the "Iron Curtain" ran roughly north-south with the Communist bloc on the east, not on the west?

Since your change was reverted, the onus is on you to establish consensus before substantially restoring your edit. Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle is the way to go. Continually restoring your version against consensus is not constructive. --Boson (talk) 15:35, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Recent additions

Two editors, Rejedef and Lguipontes, recently made changes which very much skewed the article. The extensive introduction of material on ethnic groups of Europe in one edit by Lguipontes seemed undue; extra material on Portuguese colonization could be added if properly sourced. The new section on human rights seemed quite unbalanced and appeared to be written from a Polish perspective. There is already an article Human rights in Europe, which is anodyne and neutral. If any material is warranted in this article on that topic, it would normally not be expected to diverge significantly from what can be found in the main article (although that article could not be used as a source). Cherrypicking sentences from sources to add WP:UNDUE content is not the way to write a wikipedia article. Personally I don't see the need for a section on human rights. Mathsci (talk) 06:53, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree, WP:UNDUE seems to be very much an issue here. I think people forget that this is an encyclopedia article, as such it is meant to provide the reader with a general introduction to Europe, not go into details. Particularly if they are POV-ish or poorly sourced. Athenean (talk) 07:07, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I understand that you feel like Wikipedia bosses and sheriffs of an article. Good luck with that. Wikipedia is supposed to be a free Encyclopedia, by the way. --Rejedef (talk) 12:15, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

You're reading it for free aren't you? We've told you, propose each change here individually. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:25, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Which I did and for a reason it is all wrong. If you are unhappy with its form, please change it so it is acceptable for the article 'management' --Rejedef (talk) 12:30, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

You didn't, you proposed your idea. A change to the text should be something like "I want to chance <current text> to <your text> because of <your reason>" Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:35, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

This article is amongst the 200 most read articles on wikipedia. Objecting multiple times to uncontroversial and universally accepted terms like Eastern Europe is a non-starter. Casting aspersions about other editors is also poor form. If you continue adding unhelpful comments like this to this talk page, they can simply be collapsed or removed per WP:TPG. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 21:02, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the changes of Lguipontes, if sources are given, there are no objections to adding details of Spanish and Portugese colonization of South America. However, I think the statements on specific ethnic groups in Asia, including Israel, are WP:UNDUE with too much unsourced and arbitrary detail for a general article. (Do islands in the Caribbean need to be mentioned?) Mathsci (talk) 21:48, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for my lack of manners, hello. "Do islands in the Caribbean need to be mentioned?" Huh? There are more people in Cuba, Puerto Rica and Costa Rica than in Uruguay. If it gives a sequence of countries where there is an European-descendant majority, looks perfectly reasonable to do not cite a country like the Falklands or St. Pierre et Miquelon and all you can find about the Lesser Antilles (or a wide series of the locals where you can find little minorities of Eurasian creole peoples), but the places cited here are all 3.500.000~+ in population (and an exception in the Americas apart of USA, Canada, Southern Cone and Brazil). The Israel was going to be changed too, since Sephardim are of European origin too. Israel is largely mentionable in this article because there is some murmurs about its integration in the EU (and supported by Silvio Berlusconi!) and already has its place in "European integration", as does the South Caucasus, Kazakhstan and Turkey. Also, its plurality where Ashkenazi Jews are the largest group play an important role in the foreign relations of the country. And I just was going to mention (before the reverts) how groups in Central and Northern Asia are displaced because they are not a majority but a plurality there, and "European Siberians" were mentioned here way before I started editing. Arguments about arbitrary detail when it resumes in just one paragraph and unsourced when it is available data all over Wikipedia's related articles? This is not very much easy-going, mate. Furthermore, why reverting edits instead of putting sources about it if the former editor was not the only one with that certain idea about the article's content? Lguipontes (talk) 07:00, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

It's best to avoid any discussions of Ethnic groups of Europe, particularly if you are creating the content without using sources (statements about Ashkenazi Jews). There are too many islands in the Caribbean to make any useful statement in the article. It would be too much detail. If you want to have any discussion of new content on this topic, please provide sources which can be concisely summarised. Other wikipedia articles are not normally used as sources, although they can of course provide guidance. By all means add short sourced statements about Spanish, Portugese and other European colonisation of the Americas (although bear in mind that it is already mentioned in the history section). The first step is to locate relevant sources. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 07:35, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Ok. Europeanness of the Jews is seen as controversial, I really never thought about it. No mention to Israel.

"Today, large populations of European descent are found on every continent, specially in what is known as the "New World". European ancestry predominates in the Americas, predominantly North America, but also to a lesser degree in the West Indies and South and Central Americas (particularly in Puerto Rico, Cuba, Costa Rica, Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil — Western in culture, and its mostly multiracial population primarily of European descent, mainly in Centro-Sul but distributed along the entire country —, and all Latin American countries have a considerable population of European origins), with a majority or plurality scenery for "white people" but also a much greater percent including all European descendants, such as mulattoes, mestizos, pardos, métis, etc. Also, Australia and New Zealand are examples of Oceanian countries which have mostly European-derived populations.

Africa has no white-majority country, but there are significant minorities (and creole ethnicity is dominant in Cape Verde). In Asia, European-derived populations predominate in much of Northern and Central Asia (European ethnic groups present in Russian Empire or Soviet Union such as Russians, Ukrainians, Volga Germans and Ashkenazi Jews), specifically parts of Siberia and Kazakhstan. Additionally, transcontinental or geographically Asian countries such as Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Cyprus and Turkey have populations historically closely related to Europeans, with considerable genetic and cultural affinity."

The lighter and cleaner edit I could have done. What do you think? Lguipontes (talk) 10:46, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Lguipontes, please stop making unsourced changes to this article. Again all sorts of ethnic groups are being mentioned without any justification; and "white" is being used as a synonym for "European". This is an article on Europe not ethnic groups of Europe or white people. Please stop changing the article in this non-neutral and unsourced way. This article is not a blog and any changes shoud be carefully sourced. In addition marking edits as "minor", when whole paragraphs have been rewritten, is not helpful. Please produce reliable secondary sources for any changes you are proposing. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 03:21, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Here is an example of a reliable source:

• Bacci, Massimo Livi (2000), The population of Europe: a history, Wiley-Blackwell, ISBN 0631218815

It can be found on google books or on amazon. Mathsci (talk) 03:34, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Again: HUUUUUH? I asked questions about your opinion before changes. And you even made editions here before I made the edits hours later, in practice one day. I don't know who you are, Mathsci (I only can presume you know at least some French), but in my country there is the adage that says silence is consent. The argument about Unsourced is ok (even if the content is already in Wikipedia, even if there weren't absolutely no obviously biased phrases in my edits), but about ethnic groups and synonym to "European-derived populations", I certainly did it carefully. Don't you understand? I made references to multiethnic groups of European origin in the Americas and Cape Verde to mention other groups of European origin, and I even carefully said that statistics about white population percents are counterproductive (in the sense of searching European origins among a certain population) because of the plasticity of the socially constructed concept and the reliability of how this data is obtained.

Trust me, I know the differences between continents and races (get the facts straight: I made distinctions between the two concepts, first to explain why not the great majority of American countries are listed on European-derived majority populations but I mentioned the other major groups which perform this role apart from "white people", a questionable concept, and I also said it in Africa because there are lot of insular countries and territories which probably have European-derived majority, the clear certainty about Cape Verde) and I know the proper articles and their respective contents, and I made it so clear that I can doubt your ability to interpret texts. I do not even want to consider looking into internet for sources page after page, if you think that all my edits are bad in some way. Oh, I read the online book, but how can it helps? That's why I asked you to correct any probable and explicable mistake before my changes of the content (since, no irony, you presumibly know better to do it than myself, I'm a little bit newbie), which you ignored.

And you guys don't think that mentioning the 3 Southern Cone countries as the only European-derived countries outside North America is incorrect. Why Uruguay and Chile are so more mentionable than Costa Rica, Cuba and Brazil? There were way more European immigration to Brazil. And Cabo Verde is written Cape Verde in English. Good luck fixing it. I will just wait my internet connexion normalize. It can spend days for my successful login as Lguipontes (which is locked in my other browser of my another PC entirely bugged). :) 189.106.116.194 (talk) 10:15, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

The irony! Recent edits still mention Israel, which is no way European-derived majority even if we count Askenazim and Sephardim as such! 189.106.116.194 (talk) 10:17, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Recent additions to the History section

On recent edits: The interbreeding of H. sapiens and H. neandertalensis is relevant to the discussion of "displacement of Neandertals by Cro-Magnons"; the evidence for interbreeding between "modern" and "archaic" human populations is based on the most current research, including full sequencing of the Neandertal genome and comparison to the H. sapiens genome. Citing research based on this data which has only recently become available (as the complete Neanderal genome was not sequenced until relatively recently) doesn't fall under WP:UNDUE; this isn't a "minority view". (See here, also here, also here, also here). Spider Jerusalem (talk) 12:12, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

This is a very general article on the continent of Europe. Statements about DNA and one very recent research paper are completely out of place in the history section of such a general article. This content could possibly be inserted in more specialised articles like Prehistory of Europe; that has not happened so far. Spider Jerusalem has now tried three times to insert this WP:UNDUE content which is too specialized and not sufficiently recognized. Please could he/she stop? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 20:19, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

europe's knights and kings

europe had a interesting history and in his history the ancient romans are rule very longly but in time of sharlman frenk he was an wonderful king he won france,germany,holand,switzerland,spain,and many states he won. but when he come to kingdom the roman time had a very problems but he tried to fixed them. for easy corporation of economical,politcal sides he distribute the whole kingdom to his knights and his knights get the parts of kingdom but after sharlman europe does not have any powerful king that's why the european knights get powerful and now the king have not controled on the knights and the knights have there independente sides but at 12th and 13th century the business grown up and business want a poweful and stable government that secure them and that's why the businessman are support the king and king are gain up with the bang and now the knight are going very powerless and at war of paths the king get whole power and now knights are going down and down.- sompura sagar — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.97.249.177 (talk) 14:36, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

"Mostly in Europe", "Mostly in Asia"

I have removed any such statements and adopted a neutral tone. It is not wikipedia's prerogative to determine which country belongs mostly where. The consensus on transcontinental country articles is that they are Eurasian, therefore can belong to either continent. This ambiguity is necessary to maintain neutrality and avoid constant challenges to claims of someone belonging "mostly" in Europe or Asia.--Andriabenia (talk) 11:14, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

These border issues for transcontinental countries are discussed at length in the article with careful sources, in particular the book "The Myth of Continents". They cannot be removed in the way that you have just done. If you look at the archives, you will see long discussions on this. A consensus has been established and will not be re-argued every six months. Please be aware that making non-neutral edits to this high level article has resulted in ArbCom discretionary sanctions in the past. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 11:36, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I would also advise against edit warring. This page is much watched and is amongst the 200 most consulted pages on wikipedia. It has been carefully edited and this point in particular has been very carefully sourced. I note that you have been involved in edit wars over Armenia-Georgia issues. This is a neutral and anodyne page which is stable. It is occasionally destablised when users bring border issues that plague articles related to Eastern Europe to this page. Please do not leave messages about this article on my talk page or make unfounded accusations about me here or there. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 11:42, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Please stop insinuating as if you where an authority of some kind on this page; as an experienced editor I'm sure you are familiar with WP:OWN.

Contrary to what you argue, I did not see any discussion of the border issue on the Europe page that would warrant labeling countries as "mostly" belonging to either continent. Deciding that one country belongs "mostly" on one continent or another, when there are sources for both on respective country pages, is not an optimal outcome. This also applies to the area figure for Europe, which somehow suggests that we know where the borders are exactly and unarguably, when in fact we don't.

As for the book "Myth of Continents", I am not familiar with it but I do not see what it could possibly add to this discussion, when this is a matter of elementary consistency across wikipedia articles, as well as the fact the Wikipedia cannot render the aformentioned judgements on matters geographic or otherwise.--Andriabenia (talk) 12:07, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

It is not my point of view, it is a consensus that has been in place for almost as long as this article has existed, If you wish to edit this article, you must read the sources. Unfamiliarity is not an excuse and presenting your own personal unsourced point of view is not a substitute. Please look at the archives and the discussions there; and please also read the section "Definition" which is written very carefully. The lede is anyway only a summary. I followed the discussions on WP:AN3 between you and Rast5 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). The last major problems were created here by ComtesseDeMingrelie (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), a sockpuppet of Satt 2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), another frequent visitor to this and related pages.

Is your account in any way connected with the accounts of Satt 2? There seem to be a lot of similarities. Mathsci (talk) 13:41, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

It seems to me that brushing off editors with a different point of view as sockpuppets/sockpuppeteers is a common practice on these pages and I have been accused on at least on three occasions - [2] [3] [4]. In the end, the accusers ended up being blocked themselves. I guess baseless accusations puts you in the same category with vandals like user:rast5.

As for the discontented users, go through talk pages of Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia, and you will see that the users you have hand picked are only a small number of editors who dispute various geographic definitions on the mentioned articles.--Andriabenia (talk) 14:30, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Please read the sources and stop using this talk page as a SOAPBOX. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 16:44, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I do not see any sources that would warrant placing transcontinental countries as "mostly" Asian or European. All I see are those that place them on either continent or say they are Eurasian.--Andriabenia (talk) 16:59, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

There is a clear consensus among sources about where the boundaries of Europe lie. Obviously Culture, Politics, and basically everything is not defined by the boundaries of the weird peninsula of Eurasia that is Europe, but the Europe that is defined geographically has very clear borders, which are reflected in current text. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 21:37, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Really Chipmunkdavis? Because it seems to me that there was never a consensus among geographers, with various definitions ranging from Kuma–Manych Depression, to the Caucasus Mountains, to Phasis, to Kura River...etc--Andriabenia (talk) 10:24, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Please read "The Myth of Continents", a WP:RS from the University of California Press. Personal opinions are of no relevance on this talk page. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 10:40, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Really Andriabenia. Historical definitions are that; historical. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:23, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Mathsci, a single work cannot possibly carry so much weight. The views expressed in the book are those of the author and it is not a standard for anything. The consensus where Europe ends does not exists and it will not come into existence just because you and user:chipmunkdavis do not want to see poor peripheral countries like Georgia on this cherished article of yours. Including them as an expression of your mercy - i.e. " they're not really Europe but since they so insist we'll throw them in" - is not something I am willing to put up with. I am not here to make wikipedia decide that they are either European or Asian. I am only against the use of word "mostly."--Andriabenia (talk) 15:04, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Can you provide us with a modern source that discusses the geographical borders of Europe (rather than a these countries are Europe and these are Asian) and uses an alternative definition? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 17:36, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

No Andriabenia, you cannot dismiss sources in this way. Your editing here is tendentious. I am convinced that you are a returning banned user because of your disruptiveness and your continued beating of this dead WP:HORSE. Mathsci (talk) 18:37, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I just got a hold of book "The Myth of Continents" and I have difficulty locating any information that could serve as a proof that any of the discussed transcontinental countries are mostly here or there. Do you mind providing me with a page? The article citation does not say anything.

As for alternative definitions, I just typed one of them in google - Kura River definition - and immediately came up with this

"The Kura and Qvirila rivers flowing south of Mount Elbrus delineate the border with the Asian continent"

.--Andriabenia (talk) 20:27, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I suggest that you wait until the sockpuppet investigation is resolved. The history of the boundaries is described clearly enough in that book. At the moment you seem to be angaged in WP:OR, Mathsci (talk) 20:42, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

The history I did see in the book but to borrow from user:chipmunkdavis, "historical definitions are that; historical." I do not care about history of definitions. Rather, I want to know what exactly and where exactly in the Myth of Continents did you read that suggest that any of the involved countries are "mostly" here or there? Remember, I never questioned the fact the borders evolved over time. I only questioned the use of word "mostly".--Andriabenia (talk) 20:51, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Please cite a WP:RS that you intend to use for editing the article. Personal views are just WP:OR and have no bearing on the editing of the main page. So please name the sources, preferably academic books, and then we can examine what they say. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 21:25, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

As you see, I am not editing the article and am not intending to edit war. At this point all I'm asking for is more precision and I'm getting an impression that you are deliberately trying to avoid answering my question.--Andriabenia (talk) 21:52, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

If you are not going to give any sources, then you should probably leave this page. I am not discussing anything unless you produce a WP:RS. I hope that is clear to you. You own personal point of view is completely irrelevant. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 22:12, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I already produced one source above to show that these definitions are still present in our time, common or not, and I will not be sent on a goose chaise for other sources just so that you can dignify me with a specific page(s) in your favorite book. That's probably because there is no page that supports your assertions above. Your manner of citation - i.e. including the whole book and saying "go figure" on something so specific - belongs more in the suggested readings section of some pages than footnotes.--Andriabenia (talk) 23:07, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Those travel guides are not written by experts (in this case it is this person), so "108 destinations Europe" does not qualify as a WP:RS. The publishing company, possibly run by Brad Olson, is called, "Consortium of Collective Consciousness Publishing". Please try to find an academic textbook on the history of continents. "The Myth of Continents" is one of the few such textbooks. Mathsci (talk) 23:19, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

It may well be one of few such textboooks, too bad it does not seem to address the specific issue that I have raised. Namely, how you determined which transcontinental countries belonged mostly where.I am not going to go digging through sources to find something that challenges...well, nothing, because your book, as far as this specific issue is concerned, proves nothing, however academic it may be. I can list a plethora of scholarly works but what good will they do if they do not support me on a specific fact?

That is, if I'm saying that a particular country belongs "mostly" in one place and I cite scholarly source A, and then it turns out that scholarly source A says no such thing, what good will its author or his reputation do?--Andriabenia (talk) 23:21, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

If it cannot be found in academic textbooks, it cannot be included in the article. Mathsci (talk) 23:29, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

True, and I was not intending to, but you can also not include in the article something that your academic book does not support. Academic does not justify "I'm going to throw this in as a source and let dummies like Andriabenia figure out the rest, even if there is nothing to figure out, because the source does not support what I claimed. I mean, how could a newbie challenge me, I'm Mathsci! I have been on this article since the beginning of times. Just writing the name of the book and its ISBN should be enough of a proof. As long as its scholarly, of course."--Andriabenia (talk) 23:32, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

You have just tag bombed the footnotes in the article. On the other hand it's fairly easy to find discussions about boundaries in the Caucasus. The book "The Caucasus: An Introduction" by Frederik Coene, published by Routledge, makes it clear that the issue is completely ambiguous. On page 5, Coene states, "The question of whether the Caucasus belongs to Europe or to Asia has been and still is the subject of many intense discussions." He then gives five differing descriptions / interpretations of the borders:

• The Caucasus belongs entirely to Asia because the Europe-Asia border passes through the Kuma-Maynsch depression.
• The Caucasus belongs entirely to Europe because the Europe-Asia border passes along the border between the South Caucasian countries on the one side and Turkey-Iran on the other.
• The Northern Caucasus belongs to Europe and the Southern Caucasus to Asia, because the Europe-Asia border passes along the main Caucasian range.
• The part of the Caucasus north of the rivers Rioni and Kura belongs to Europe and the part to the south to Asia, because the rivers form the Europe-Asia border.
• The main western part of the Caucasus belongs to Europe and a smaller part in the east (basically most of Azerbaijan and small parts of Georgia, Armenia and the Caspian Sea coast of the Russian Federation) to Asia, because the Europe-Asia border passes along the landscape border. This last version is the most widely accepted one.

These ambiguities can be spelt out in an article on the Caucasus, but that detail is unnecessary in this general article. The border that you described, according to this source, is only one of five possibilities and is not the most widely accepted one. Mathsci (talk) 00:23, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I am not sure either what the purpose was of tagging the disputed territories of Abkhazia and Southern Ossetia. Please could you explain and indicate where you might expect to find sources in the circumstances. Mathsci (talk) 08:32, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I have seen all of those definitions before but following your example of digging through various Europe/Asia debates of the past, I came upon an interesting wisdom shared by our friend user:chipmunkdavis: Wikipedia is not a competition of sources. So I don't think you can count definitions found here and there and render judgements, while disregarding other opinions, especially when it seems that in the listed definitions the opinion is split fairly evenly, at least when it comes to the placement of North Caucasus and Georgia.

In the end, I still don't get how you calculated that transcontinental countries belong mostly here or mostly there because of the listed definitions only the Kura-Qvirila definition gives a clear possibility of stating which country belongs mostly where, since in this case you can just follow the river. For this reason, your removal of citation requests was unjustified and I request that you place them where they belong unless there is a source that explicitly states, like then Kura-Qvirila definition, where the border goes.--Andriabenia (talk) 11:55, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

As far as I am aware, Chipmunkdavis and other regular watchers of this page, including me, are all in agreement. Chipmunkdavis has also asked you to provide sources and you have so far produced nothing reliable. Note that in the article Caucasus, the main Caucasian range is taking as the geographical boundary between Europe and Asia. I did not calculate anything in these articles. I helped write the Definition and History sections. So stop personalising this discussion and wait for other editors to contribute. So far nobody has agreed with you and you have not made the slightest attempt to find any sources to back up your point of view: you have stated without justification that you don't like the CIA Factbook. Mathsci (talk) 17:03, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

The source you yourself provided above is enough of a proof that there are a variety of definitions and that based on these collectively you cannot say where a particular country "mostly" belongs. The most you can do is say they are transcontinental or Eurasian. As for the Caucasus page, such abandoned articles are often an ideal place for POV pushing which on more visited pages will not stand. So this is hardly a standard for a page like Europe, or pages of involved transcontinental countries.

Lastly, I do not need chipmunkdavis' or any other users' approval to know that the CIA and the UN are hardly geographic authorities of any kind, as you imply by your edits. Since you like to distinguish from "geographic" sources, let me tell you that they are as "political" as any other organization/agency sources that you like to disregard.--Andriabenia (talk) 17:13, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

WP:BRD

This seems to be deteriorating into an edit war. The procedure outlined in BRD is that the editor makes a change (Andriabenia), another reverts it, the page stays reverted (without the proposed changes) until the discussion can form a WP:CONSENSUS

Hopefully discussion can form a consensus acceptable to both parties, at which point any agreed changes can be made.

If this is against some already agreed consensus, apologies, but after briefly reading the above remarks and seeing the edit histories, it seems that the bold changing editor is unwilling to accept that there is not consensus for their addition. Chaosdruid (talk) 00:02, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand all the details of the dispute above, but that most of Turkey is in Asia seems uncontroversial... AnonMoos (talk) 04:24, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Interesting article

"Where Is Europe?" by Frank Jacobs, New York Times, January 9, 2012... AnonMoos (talk) 04:17, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Chinese Name Change

I deleted the following sentence from this page:

which is an abbreviation of the transliterated name Ōuluóbā zhōu (歐羅巴洲)

I did this because, I have never heard this term though I am a speaker of Chinese. I asked some native Chinese speakers, and they also had never heard this term. I have found any research indicating that the term 欧洲 is an abbreviation of 欧罗巴州, as the deleted sentence suggests, though 欧罗巴 is direct transliteration of the word Europe into Chinese. The word was used on the Chinese Language Wikipedia page refers to 欧罗巴 only as a transliteration for the Greek word "Europa."